Museveni says gays not persecuted; forgets persecution last week

What a short memory.

Uganda’s President says gays aren’t persecuted in his country just days after his Ethics Minister raided a GLBT conference and chased activists out of the hotel fearing arrest.

Note to the rest of the world – The President of Uganda wants you to subscribe to his version of reality where disrupting and threatening a peaceful assembly is not persecution.

  • Maazi NCO

    Note to the rest of the world – The President of Uganda wants you to subscribe to his version of reality where disrupting and threatening a peaceful assembly is not persecution.

    It is good to read in the international press that our Numero Uno is not going to be putting obstacles in the path of our democratic parliamentary process. He is right on the money when he implied in his statements that gay sex practitioners can go do their deviant business behind closed doors. However, what we cannot tolerate is any attempt to bring that transparently insane behaviour into the public arena. There is no reason for the existence of the colourfully named puppet gay advocacy groups fronting for the Euro-American Gay Propagandist Lobby. After the bill becomes law, I am envisaging that these puppet groupings shall be compelled by law enforcement agents to suffer a complete melt-down. Alternatively, these groupings can all relocate to San Francisco and leave us alone. Please Doc Warren can you get the State Department to arrange a couple of one-way tickets to your country ???

  • http://aebrain.blogspot.com Zoe Brain

    You mean like the evacuations of Jews and Asians that happened under Amin?

    Yes, maybe we can. And an International trade boycott too.

  • Richard Willmer

    Well, yes – ‘redeployed’ GBS could be used to help those threatened with violence to relocate. (I’m sure this is one contingency in the event of increased repression.)

  • Richard Willmer

    It will be interesting to see the ‘revised’ Bahati Bill (if such a thing actually exists … which I doubt is currently the case). If it is (like the current Clause 13 of the Bahati Bill) designed to do things like render decent, law-abiding LGBT people homeless, jobless and healthcare-less, and force them into hiding, then there will be absolutely no reason for ‘the West’ to alter its current hard-line stance. Then there is also the issue of freedom of expression: simply being honest about who one is, and open about whom one loves, is not ‘promoting’ anything. Nor is providing a safe context for others to seek advice and support. (And the strange and contradictory combination of ‘taboo’ and ‘vigorous sexuality’ that characterizes places like UG does cause many young people to experience confusion*).

    If the recent actions (which have no basis in current Ugandan law) of Lokodo are anything to go by, the signs are not good. Here is the account of someone (a mother and grandmother) who was part of the conference that Lokodo closed down: http://www.monitor.co.ug/OpEd/Commentary/-/689364/1328944/-/128wexrz/-/index.html

    Looks like there will be more trouble ahead … (other reports from human rights defenders reach many of us every day)

    Anyway, if M7 (and ‘Maazi’) are serious about allowing private consensual sex, then they should work to repeal Penal Code 145. If they do not do so, then the ‘behind closed doors’ rhetoric is simply humbug – a diversion designed to stave off unwanted responses from ‘donor countries’ (about whose attitudes ‘Maazi’ has claimed repeatedly not to care).

    Bahati, of course, does NOT want to allow consensual sex ‘behind closed doors’. The current Bahati Bill is a ‘seek out and destroy’ measure. It looks as if he might have been ‘brought to heel’ to some extent (assuming that what M7 and ‘Maazi’ have said can be taken at anything approaching face value). But then Ugandan politics (like politics generally, perhaps) is a murky affair …

    * An interesting aside: when I was young, and ‘homosexuality’ was taboo here in Britain, there was probably rather more ‘experimental’ same-sex activity (in, for example, single-sex boarding schools) than there is today, now that things can be openly and sensibly discussed. Of course, there are no data on this, as such things were ‘swept under the carpet’ (in the best hypocritical English style!) back then.

  • Richard Willmer

    Another interesting report: http://latitude.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/22/gay-bashing-in-uganda-is-a-diversion-from-government-malfeasance/

    The key phrase is perhaps this: “the issue has become a stand-in for other freedoms that unnerve the powers that be.”

    Oh yes! Opposition politicians like ‘Maazi NCO MP’ should be very very careful what they support. Human rights activists today, them tomorrow? And if many donors withdraw general budget support over the Bahati / ‘Maazi’ Bill, then there could be less incentive for the ‘powers that be’ to respect anybody’s human rights. This is very worrying. Remember what Pastor Niemoller said:

    “First they came for the communists,

    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.

    “Then they came for the trade unionists,

    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

    “Then they came for the Jews,

    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.

    “Then they came for me

    and there was no one left to speak out for me.”

  • Richard Willmer

    (I would just remind ‘Maazi’ – in case he starts he ‘ethnicity’ thing again – that communists and trade unionists are not ethnic groups!)

  • Patrocles

    Muzeveni has obviously made a difference between homosexuals (male-male sex practitioners) one one hand and gay activists on the other hand – a difference which is often made in Western countries, too. So he was quite correct; and Dr. Throckmorton made his point only by mixing the different meanings in using the word “gay” for both.

    Which has just a little touch of demagoguery.

  • Patrocles

    We should perhaps remember, how male-male sex got accepted in Western countries. NOT by “international trade boycott”. But by gradual accepting that male-male sex was traditional and widespread. And by gradual accepting that penal law should be constrained to cases were it was inevitable.

    I see that gay activists of today have much more access to power. So they have become too obsessed with power (intimidation, extortion etc.) to take a peaceful path.

  • Maazi NCO

    “First they came for the communists,

    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.

    “Then they came for the trade unionists,

    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

    “Then they came for the Jews,

    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.

    “Then they came for me

    and there was no one left to speak out for me.

    I am sure that Reverend Martin Niemoller did not have sexual deviants in mind when he wrote his treatise. There is no way Niemoller would have recognized deviants as a distinct category of people in need of protection and support. Perhaps, you should quote Nazi- SS Leader Herr Ernst Rohm who died during Adolf Hitler’s “Night Of The Long Knives”. I am sure that he had some nice poem he dedicated in defence of sodomites

  • Maazi NCO

    You mean like the evacuations of Jews and Asians that happened under Amin?

    I see you enjoy using Idi Amin as cannon fodder for gay propaganda. We are pretty immune to it down here. Idi Amin fell out with Israelis over their refusal to give him some advanced weaponry. He started hobnobbing with Colonel Gaddafi and eventually the Israeli diplomatic community here was expelled from the country. Please do not confuse the Israeli diplomatic personnel with a Jewish community which never existed in Uganda. As for the formerly expelled Indian-Ugandan community, they are back here and have been reintegrated into national life. We have Indian-Ugandan MPs in our parliament and all of them won parliamentary elections and defeated their Black African counterparts because ordinary Black Ugandans voted for them. There is still some racial tensions, but things are certainly improved over the years.

    Just for the record, not all indians were expelled in 1972. Indians who had only Ugandan passports (as opposed to having both British and Ugandan Passports) stayed behind after the 1972 explusion order and survived the Idi Amin regime like their Black African counterparts.

    Gay sex practitioners will never be conferred the status of an ethnic minority group in this country and throughout our continent. Gayism is a sex crime and I was merely suggesting that if there are people who dislike African attitudes to this matter then such a person should simply emigrate to San Francisco which hosts a special enclave dedicated to gayism. Here in Uganda, we cannot grant such an enclave or recognize gayism as anything, but a sex crime.

  • Richard Willmer

    I for one think its no bad thing that ‘gay activists … have much more access to power’, given the threats to them from people like Bahati.

    Museveni seems to be trying to justify his renewed attacks on ‘gay activists’ by reference to that old chestnut: ‘recruitment’ of children. But there are already laws in Uganda to deal with the sexual abuse and exploitation of children, so why have those not been applied. I’ll tell you why: because this so-called ‘recruitment’ is not actually happening (apart from the odd instance – after all, there are paedophiles who prey on children of their own sex, just a there are paedophiles who prey on children of the opposite sex).

    And is the path taken by religious extremists and others who advocate the persecution of gays ‘peaceful’. No, it is not! (By comparison, the ‘gay activists’ in Uganda are ‘paragons of peace’!)

  • stephen

    Patrocles, may I say that being homosexual is only tangentially about sex. That word is difficult, not only because the ‘homo’ part of it (short o) is from the Greek meaning same, not the Latin meaning man. I once had a trick cyclist (London slang for psychiatrist) who could not understand the difference. Also, and this has largely been drowned out by the increasingly strident attack on gay Americans, the word is an adjective, it describes an aspect of one’s life; one isn’t “a homosexual” but one can be homosexual: homosexual parent, voter, Republican, Democrat, bricklayer, welder, Marine, etc. One’s emotional orientation is about how one relates to the world and where one’s emotions lie, not about what kind of sex one prefers – though that’s an important part of it just as it is for straight America.

    For myself, a homosexual man, I allow you a leeway you wouldn’t get if you were posting about Jewish-Americans. We’re not powerful and we’re not obsessed with power. We are only trying to claim our place in society: equal, same rights same responsibilities.

    I will now go and fix dinner for my husband and I. We will then watch some TV till it’s time for bed.

    This is what the for-profit religious/political groups don’t want you to know: We’re just like you. Because we are you. Apart from our affectional difference. Think of it as being left-handed. The Bible curses that too: dexter – sinister.

    Gay Americans don’t exist in the back rooms of porn shops. We live in your local supermarket, school, church, union.

  • Maazi NCO

    We’re not powerful and we’re not obsessed with power. We are only trying to claim our place in society: equal, same rights same responsibilities.

    Bollocks !!! You chaps dream of taking the world by storm with the help of your extremely compromised Western governments threatening, cajoling and bullying poorer 3rd world nations. I lived Stateside and saw firsthand the kind of sophisticated propaganda machine operated by your likes and how this is used to villify people who disapprove of your deviant way of life. My observations during my sojourn in Europe and America is what drives me to ensure that your puppet-advocates down here in Kampala are never allowed to influence government policy in Uganda now or in the future. It doesn’t matter what form of government is in power in Uganda. Gayism will never be allowed breathing space to flourish to the extent of some demented fellows fighting for two men to be allowed to get married or adopt an innocent baby as their trophy prize for “gay rights”.

  • stephen

    Don’t feed the troll.

  • David M.

    @Stephen: “Don’t feed the troll.”

    I am coming to agree with you, Stephen. The more I think about this, and the more I see him post here, the less I believe he is really who he claims to be. The post above timestamped 9:04 pm was submitted 5:04 am Kampala time. The previous posts timestamped 4:42 pm and 5:02 pm would have been submitted at 12:42 am and 1:02 am respectively Kampala time. If this were someone writing from Kampala, it would have to be an insomniac. It’s possible, I suppose, but unlikely that a UG MP is staying up all night to post on this blog. It’s a great blog, but…

    Further, he appears to be someone who takes delight in baiting us. His inane, repititious sloganeering seems meant to provoke an angry response. He claims now to have been in the US as well as Great Britain (as I recall). Is this a new claim? I don’t remember anyone mentioning his visiting the US before. Seems strange that this would just now pop out. Maybe, though, it’s a little slip?

    Whoever he is, he is completely irrational. I have tried to engage him in a reasonable discussion, but whenever he is pressed to face the implications of his statements, he simply slips back into the same old sloganeering. Nothing changes.

    So, Warren, what type of person enjoys making himself despised just for the delight of watching others get angry and frustrated? This doesn’t seem like a healthy preoccupation to me. I see a man who is determined to make himself evil.

  • Maazi NCO

    It’s possible, I suppose, but unlikely that a UG MP is staying up all night to post on this blog. It’s a great blog, but…

    Have you ever checked the schedule of MPs in Uganda? After checking that schedule then check if there are no MPs that do late night work. Until you have done this research refrain from talking rubbish !!

  • Maazi NCO

    Further, he appears to be someone who takes delight in baiting us. His inane, repititious sloganeering seems meant to provoke an angry response

    I will be most delighted if you people did not try to jam our email accounts with unsolicited rubbish. I will be happier if you chaps mind your own country and do not bother us. I am not writing to draw angry responses. I am merely stating our position here in Uganda

    Whoever he is, he is completely irrational. I have tried to engage him in a reasonable discussion

    The problem is that you want to convert me to your way of thinking. I do not wish to be converted. I am merely here to state our own views in Uganda not to be tutoured by you about the finer side of sodomy.

  • Richard Willmer

    You’re repeatedly stated your position, ‘Maazi’ (although it is sometimes rather unclear what you think should be in the Bill); and other Ugandans, like the Editor of the Daily Monitor, have expressed their (different) position.

    M7 did well in that BBC interview (to be expected – he’s a very smart chap), except on the bit about the Bill … where his ‘position’ appeared somewhat ‘fidgety’.

  • F Young

    @Maazi NCO

    “Bollocks !!! You chaps dream of taking the world by storm…”

    I have lived in America far longer than you, and am very familar with the LGBTI movements, and I can say unequivocably that you are utterly wrong. The LGBTI movements seek social and legal equality, not power. On the contrary, it is their opponents who seek to preserve their power to oppress LGBTIs. You are blinded by your homophobia and racism.

  • Richard Willmer

    I agree at least 95%* with F. Young’s assessment. I certainly agree that our resident Ugandan MP has chosen to be blinded by false propaganda (e.g. all this ‘recruitment’ stuff). We probably won’t be able to open his eyes, but we can keep up the campaign against unjust treatment of LGBT people.

    In Uganda, the human rights activists that ‘Maazi’ and others wish to hit are not even asking for ‘legal equality’. They have not demanded the right to ‘marry’ – merely the right to live in peace, free from violence and unjust discrimination under the criminal law. Nor do they seek to silence or repress those who disagree with them. Those of us who have chosen to give these activists our support have no wish to harm any Ugandans (hence, among other things, the very careful and nuanced position that many of us take on the matter of foreign aid).

    (*Obviously, there will be small minority in any ‘movement’ that will want power over others, but, almost without exception, LGBT rights activists are essentially ‘defensive’ in their modus operandi, whereas Bahati and his American chums [and financial backers?] are ‘offensive’ and seek to do material harm to their opponents.)

  • Richard Willmer

    If one is really concerned about the sexual abuse and exploitation of children, then the last place one should look is at those who are ‘out in the open’.

    Child sexual abuse / exploitation is, by its very nature, a devious and secretive business.

    I do happen to be aware of an alleged incident, in Uganda, of a boy having been abused by a man. The alleged abuser was a (probably anti-gay) ‘pastor’. European? No. American? No. Ugandan? No. In fact, he came from one of ‘Maazi’s’ favourite foreign countries but, given that these are merely allegations (although I have no reason to disbelieve them), I will not say which one. (I did offer to speak, on behalf of the boy’s family, to the authorities – where I have a contact or two – about these allegations, but it seems that the ‘pastor’ has slipped back home, and – in any case – the family was not confident of receiving a sympathetic hearing from the police.)

  • Maazi NCO

    You are blinded by your homophobia and racism.

    I don’t recognize the Western socio-political coinage— “homophobia”—- because in the African context it is a meaningless word. I do not have a phobia for gay sex practitioners. I don’t fear them. They should simply keep their abhorrent behaviour in their dingy backstreet bedrooms and leave us alone. Any attempt to promote such transparently insane behaviour in public cannot be tolerated.

    Me a racist??? Hahahahahaha…..Do you even understand the meaning of the word??

    I do happen to be aware of an alleged incident, in Uganda, of a boy having been abused by a man.

    That is why we need the Bahati Bill to get to the root of the problem which is the promotion of gayism !!!

    In Uganda, the human rights activists that ‘Maazi’ and others wish to hit are not even asking for ‘legal equality’. They have not demanded the right to ‘marry’ – merely the right to live in peace, free from violence and unjust discrimination under the criminal law.

    It is only a matter of time before they start haranguing us for the right to same-sex marriage, gay adoption and right to march the streets of Kampala half-naked and waving ridiculous rainbow flags and the right to have vaguely worded “protection laws” that criminalize anyone who voices disapproval of gayism like Pastor Green of Sweden who was hauled from his pulpit to court and then jail because he dared to preach against gayism. If we give them an inch, they will ask for a mile and half. That is what happened in USA and Europe and South Africa when gayism was legalized in the naive belief that gay sex militants are merely content with being allowed to do stuff in their dingy bedrooms. No Richard !!! What the puppets want is merely the first stage of their Western-choreographed “Gay Agenda For Africa”. Once they get legalization of gayism, they will move unto Stage 2 and Stage 3 of the Gay Agenda

  • David M.

    Webster’s defines homophobia as “irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.” The shoe fits.

  • David M.

    Maazi, it’s 4:35 in the morning in Uganda. If you are really there, why are you still up? When do you sleep?

  • Richard Willmer

    @ ‘Maazi’

    Turn it round for a moment: if we ‘give the Bahatis of the world an inch’ then ‘he will take a mile-and-a-half’ (the ‘mile-and-a-half’ in this case being genocide).

    Bahati showed his hand to the world back in October 2009, and no amount of verbal wriggling by you or anyone else can disguise what is that hand.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ David M

    Maybe I’m wrong about ‘Maazi’. Maybe he is living it up in the USA.

    But I’m pretty sure that he’s a Ugandan MP (not of the NRM), and has just been given UGX 100 million ($ 40,000) from state funds for a nice new car. So he can plan his repression in comfort.

    (A good second-hand boda-boda can be had for about UGX 1 million, I’m told. Mind you, even that price is pretty steep for the many ordinary Ugandans ‘Maazi claims to represent.)

    If it is the case that ‘Maazi’ is in Kampala, and is having a sleepless night or two, then maybe it could be said that, at some subconscious level, he is recognizing reality. After all, if he REALLY didn’t bother about the views expressed on the blog, he would sleep soundly, and, in the day time, get and do whatever it is he was going to get on do – and face whatever consequences transpired. After all, he is never going to convince us of his viewpoint, is he?!

  • David M.

    @Richard Wilmer

    If it were a sleepless night or two, I could perhaps believe it. It appears though that this person is up night after night after night, with more time to post on this blog than I have. I would assume an MP has a fairly busy life. I don’t think one could sleep during the day. A human body can’t function on little or no sleep for too long.

    Moreover, I see no point to his lurking here except to antagonize us. That is highly dysfunctional, and I assume an MP would find better uses of his time. I may be wrong.

    I find it more likely to think this is a Ugandan living in the West somewhere. He may perhaps have connections with politicians in Uganda, but I don’t see any breadth of though or other qualities that would be required of a politician.

    If I’m right, I think we have someone here who very much likes having our negative attention. And I am frankly no longer willing to give him that. My only purpose in engaging him at all is trying to appeal to any last shreds of human decency he may have if, only if, he is an MP.

  • Richard Willmer

    Well, one can fit the timings of many of ‘Maazi’s’ morning posts to ‘Kampala time’.

    Quite a number of Ugandan MPs speak in the sloganizing manner of ‘Maazi’; so do quite a number of ‘western politicians’ these days, of course! And most of my African friends tend to go to sleep very late (I can usually call a UG friend here in London as late as midnight without worrying about waking up him/her).

    He once suddenly got very ‘hot under the collar’ when I made dig at ‘politicians’ a few months ago. He has also intimated that he himself is involved with the Bill (though this could be some kind of delusion on his part, I suppose).

    Appealing to ‘Maazi’ to review his homophobic stance is probably not a fruitful use of time or effort. Getting him to drop little hints about what might be going on in the backside rooms of the Ugandan Parliament could be more helpful. And as is the case in all ‘interrogations’, it’s the things that are NOT said that can be the most significant (and I’ve sometimes been surprised by what ‘Maazi’ has NOT reacted to). That’s how I see it, anyway. I might well come round to your view at some point.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ ‘Maazi NCO MP’

    Do you know why the abuse to which I referred was not reported? I’ll tell you: homophobia – the family were frightened of the reaction they would received they would receive from the police (who, it is alleged, sometimes sexually abuse detainees themselves). And was the alleged abuser a human rights activist? NO – he was a (probably anti-gay – like yourself) ‘pastor’.

    Anyway, you already have laws to deal with defilement. The Bahati Bill is just an expensive diversion.

    I have no problem with colourful processions or same-sex couples offering to look after children who have noone else to care for them; to me they are infinitely preferable to fruits of homophobia: hypocrisy, hatred, violence, blackmail, corruption, murder.


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