Comments on: A.J. Drew and the Frosts Effigy Update

By: BEAST

BEAST — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 03:57:42 +0000

IM LOOKING FOR THE MEANING OF THE TEXT ON A DRAWING OF A WAND IN ONE OF AJ DREWS BOOK ANY HELP IS APPRECIATED THANKS >>>beast

By: ajdrew

ajdrew — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:34:00 +0000

On discussing matters with Colson, like him or not he is greatly influencial & does not believe the government should fund Pagan clergy within the prison system. I believe the government should fund clergy in the prison system. So, I attempt to communicate with him and illustrate what pagans in the prison system ministry have already accomplished.I think such open dialog is a good thing.

By: Peg

Peg — Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:15:00 +0000

If you can’t see the difference between criticisms of your methods in one instance, and the criticism of everything you do in any context, then perhaps you should consider how appropriate a spokesman for this issue you are.An excellent point. This does happen again and again when Mr. Drew tries to defend himself: a completely indiscriminate, irrelevant use of extreme hyperbole or impertinent examples. Recently he asked people if, in addition to “supporting” the Frosts , they also supported NAMBLA: in his mind, one must automatically include the other. I don’t think he does this as a diversion, I think he really thinks it’s the same thing, which is even more worriesome.

By: Jason Pitzl-Waters

Jason Pitzl-Waters — Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:15:00 +0000

AJ Drew:”I illustrated to him that without knowable advice, the Ohio prison system had previously allowed imprisoned sex offenders to order a book which promotes pedophilia in the name of Wicca. I have also had conversation with at least one member of the Bush administration about this matter.”You can’t see the difference between making recommendations to prison officials as to which books are and are not appropriate for prisoners, and contacting people who are anti-Pagan (not to mention anti-gay, anti-woman, and anti-evolution) ideologues? This points out why I have an issue with your tactics. “I have also been involved in identifying books such as Creed of Iron as racist literature. Should I keep my mouth shut about that as well?”This sentence sums up exactly why I don’t like your methods. Someone criticizes you for contacting Colson (who is no friend to anything Pagan) instead of simply contacting prison officials where you work, and you then ask them if they also want you to “keep your mouth shut” concerning racist material. If you can’t see the difference between criticisms of your methods in one instance, and the criticism of everything you do in any context, then perhaps you should consider how appropriate a spokesman for this issue you are.

By: ajdrew

ajdrew — Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:05:00 +0000

You said “Drew’s methods should be a wake-up call to the fact that a vacuum has existed in our inter-connected communities and that we should work towards forming an effective and accountable place for victims and those worried about possible predators to turn.”Yes and it is working very well. Thank you for noticing and participating.Concerning Christopher W. Chase, I am surprised that an academic would state “The magickal burning of someone in effigy seems like such an extreme tactic” when I have never stated I was burning a thing in effigy. My words have been very clear, I intend to sacrifice Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy. Concerning Charles Colson, a prison minister, I was responding to his public statement that he does not feel pagan clergy should be funded by the government in exchange for their service within US prisons. I illustrated to him that without knowable advice, the Ohio prison system had previously allowed imprisoned sex offenders to order a book which promotes pedophilia in the name of Wicca. I have also had conversation with at least one member of the Bush administration about this matter. You seem to think that nothing positive can come from my efforts. As you brought up Charles Colson, you must be aware of what I said to the man. You must be aware that one of the things that have come from my efforts is that the Ohio prison system has become aware of the pedophilic nature of the book in question. And yet, you seem to think that I should not involve people who contribute to the decision of funding Wiccan Chaplains in the prison system of the great value in identifying pedophilic literature. I have also been involved in identifying books such as Creed of Iron as racist literature. Should I keep my mouth shut about that as well?Protecting the reputation of the Wiccan community is irrelevant compared to the fact that there are Wiccan sex offenders in prison who stand a better chance of not repeating their crimes if they do not receive literature supporting those crimes in the name of Wicca.With all due respect to Chase’s description as an academic, when he has a long history of sitting across a table from men who have raped children in the hopes that when the state releases them they will not repeat their crimes, well then once he has walked in my shoes on that subject, I might be willing to discuss the matter with him as I am with Christian ministers who must do the same thing for the same reasons.My involvement with the prison system is not for the purpose of blindlessly defending Wicca. It is to better my children’s odds against being molested and raped.

By: Kathryn Price NicDhàna

Kathryn Price NicDhàna — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:39:00 +0000

Due to the inappropriate and at times appalling things in some of their books, even if they were written long ago, I do not think the Frosts should be invited to present at Pagan events, nor do I think Pagans should promote the Frost’s writings. At all. That is, unless and until the Frosts write something which *thoroughly* disavows the illegal and harmful practices they have in the past promoted. Not just a tacked-on legal disclaimer, but something that shows a thorough change of heart as well as remorse for any harm they may have caused. Assuming it would not involve upsetting survivors in any way by their presence or statements, I would also ask them to do something to donate time and money to helping survivors of sexual abuse. I have to say, though, even then I would not personally feel right including the Frosts in general Pagan community events. While I think it is appropriate and helpful to speak openly and honestly about our opinions on these matters, and find ways to make abusers feel the rage and pain of their victims, I don’t think burning anyone in effigy is going to improve the situation. It smacks of an aggressive publicity stunt that will backfire and cause more harm to sane discourse than anything else. If there’s something illegal the Frosts can be charged with, by all means go ahead; but public cursings and burnings only make the accuser look maniacal. Not a smart tactic.Perhaps some sort of forum where those who feel harmed by the Frost’s work would be more helpful. Perhaps this is happening on the Internet, but it may be something to consider doing in person if folks on all sides of the issue are open to it.My wishes are for justice, and for the healing of those who’ve been victimized by sexual predators in the community, no matter whose books may have inspired or encouraged them.

By: Peg

Peg — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:26:00 +0000

Okay, I am not going to pick on your spelling and usage errors here. But I do want to refute your dishonesty again:Prior to Peg Aloi joining Pagan Nation as Nightshy, I wrote to her in her capacity as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice.No, you did not. I never received an email from you. You may have written to Witchvox, but not ot me. I wrote to solicit the help of The Witches Voice in the matter of bringing Gavin and Yvonne Frost to task for what they have promoted. At first, I thought she had ignored my request for help from The Witches Voice.No, I never received any such request. Later I discovered her response was to come to the community site that I operate and vigilantly defend not only Gavin and Yvonne Frost, but also the book they wrote.I did not do this as a "response" to your imaginary email. I did so as a human being concerned by the libelous attack on the Frosts, I did this as an anonymous individual and at no time gave my name or mentioned any affiliation. I have already cleary stated this. She claims she was not publicly acting as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice when she defended the Frosts and what they wrote, however it seems clear to me that her actions at PaganNation.com were the result of my asking her as Media Coordinator for help in this matter.No. Not possible, since I never received such a request. In any case, since I did not give my name or affiliation, the two things are not connected.As I understand it, she is a single mother.Oh, really? This is news to me. You must have me confused with someone else. I'd love to know who told you this piece of tripe. I thought for sure she would feel as I do that what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote was disguesting and vial.What I find "disgusting and vile" is your constant attempt to call attention to yourself using whatever lowbrow, antagonistic and just plain nasty methods you can think of. But you know, your own actions have surely netted you some negative karma. The longer you keep it up, the worse it will be for you. As someoen who has written several books on Wicca, it is surprising you don't know this.