Comments on: Heading the Wrong Way Into the Mainstream?

By: Jason Pitzl-Waters

Jason Pitzl-Waters — Mon, 31 Dec 2007 01:27:00 +0000

“There are a myriad of ways to relate with the Divine.”I have never said otherwise. I have never claimed that sermons are always verboten or inappropriate. I was relating to a specific context that Gus writes about at his blog. Which, from his way of presenting it, didn’t seem very Pagan at all. I should also point out that the ritual discused here was a Wicca-derived ritual structure, not Asatru or any other modern Pagan faith. So specific criticisms should be seen in that light.

By: Hildegard Of Vinland

Hildegard Of Vinland — Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:53:00 +0000

With regards to this part of the statement:”Like any viable spiritual practice, sermons have their strengths and weaknesses, but their strengths are not in keeping with Pagan approaches to relating with the Divine, and their weaknesses undermine the vitality of Pagan spirituality.”I’m not in favor of the way he phrased this. The more I ponder it, the more I dislike it. Given the way he put this, it sounds like he is basically dictating for all Pagandom what are and are not appropriate ways for ALL Pagans to approach the Divine. Or he sounds like he’s indicating he knows all the answers about how Pagans should be relating with the Divine. This is very disturbing. “Not in keeping with Pagan approaches to relating with the Divine.” I can’t even really express how floored I am by this very statement.There are a myriad of ways to relate with the Divine. There are an infinite number of ways of relating with the Divine. I really can think of some Gods and Goddesses right now for Whom preaching and teaching in the form of a sermon would be a very deeply appropriate way to relate to the Divine. Saga, Odin, Frigga and Tyr from my own pantheon come to mind first. I’m a little reluctant, however, to speak for other pantheons, as I don’t know them as well.

By: Hildegard Of Vinland

Hildegard Of Vinland — Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:40:00 +0000

I also think it is pertinent to add that this is what happens when people try to be everything to everyone, instead of having a specific tradition with a specific liturgy for specific rites and specific deities that one invokes during said rites. I strongly think this is part of the problem of eclecticism: there’s no commitment to any one actual path, so the result of that is having too much information to choose from, and in terms of one’s guests having to try to please everyone’s tastes, and it doesn’t work. When a person attends Mass at a Catholic church, the Mass isn’t watered down or changed to accomodate everyone’s tastes. People know what to expect when attending Mass. It is consistent everywhere you go – and that is part of why Roman Catholic spirituality is so powerful. A Catholic can attend Mass in any state in the US, or any country outside the US, and know that on any given Sunday, they are praying the same prayers as every other Catholic, they are reading the same verses in Scripture, the priest is saying the same things and the congregants are all responding in the same way. It connects all the worshipers through time and space. Eclectic pagans do not have this….this….kind of liturgical and spiritual power (for lack of a better term). In their complete fear of hierarchy and elimination of individuality, eclectic pagans have really overcompensated in completely the other direction – and it results in watered-down, weak rites that have little to no spiritual effect.

By: Hildegard Of Vinland

Hildegard Of Vinland — Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:31:00 +0000

With regards to this statement:”Sermons are a central aspect of Christian practice. They imply a specific kind of relationship between deity, the sermonizer, and those hearing the message. Deity is distant. The sermonizer is an expert at theological interpretation, at least compared to the audience, who are essentially passive receptacles … Like any viable spiritual practice, sermons have their strengths and weaknesses, but their strengths are not in keeping with Pagan approaches to relating with the Divine, and their weaknesses undermine the vitality of Pagan spirituality.”I would have to say this:This person clearly does not understand that a “sermon” is first of all not limited to Christian practice.Within a pagan or heathen context, a sermon would be considered sharing the rede – “rede” having associations with the rune Raidho (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v112/lovehound/All%20Things%20Norse/raido.gif) and meaning “the Way” or “the Path” or “the Advice.” Another rune/mystery that a sermon could be associated with would be Ansuz (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v112/lovehound/All%20Things%20Norse/ansuz.gif) which stands for communication with the Gods. So I say that a sermon is very appropriate for pagan rites. My rites will have them. They are a means to impart wisdom and to help the listeners understand the will of the Gods.

By: dubhlainn

dubhlainn — Sun, 30 Dec 2007 07:32:00 +0000

I am not Wiccan so perhaps I shouldn’t leave this comment. However I happen to believe that Wicca is most powerful, meaningful, and effective when it is done in a small group (coven) or solitary setting. In my experience almost all Public Pagan events are what I would call “Wicca Lite”. My own tradition (ADF – Druidic Neopaganism) is meant to be a public observation. The rituals are designed to used for a score or more of people. There are some solitaries as well (I am one of them) and many small groups but the most focus is on the large group setting. That is not to say that ADF is appropriate for every public event either. As for the inclusion of a sermon in ritual, I would say risky at best. In addition to being a Pagan I am also a UU Lay Preacher – I love sermons. I love hearing them, writing them, and delivering them. However the energy that is created, if one is lucky enough to create any, is not the same as is used in magical or ritual work. I guess what I am trying to get at is that is ok to experiment, maybe even essential, to move away from small group practice when presenting for the public but one must be very deliberate and very focused on what the end goal is and should be.

By: Kris

Kris — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:44:00 +0000

For me it’s not necessarily so important to “advance” into the mainstream anyway.Far more important than whether anyone and everyone understands my beliefs and practices is that I have the right to engage in them.And in my experience, it is extremely difficult to manage a large public ritual. I doubt one would ever be able to get the same level of engagement and immersion that happens in smaller groups, thus that “watered-down” feeling.

By: Brock

Brock — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:56:00 +0000

On those rare occasions of late when I’ve had occasion to do public ritual it’s been less a matter keeping discordant notes out of the ritual design and more about finding ways to draw the focus of the attendant multitude into the ritual working. But then, I had the luxury of good training in this area.At its heart, religious ritual is a form of theater. (Indeed, theater first began as pagan religious ritual, so taking the concept full circle seems somehow quite apt.) In order to be able to make rituals work for large groups, the entire ritual structure needs to be integrated and focused so that everything that is done in the ritual engages the participants and draws them into the working. But that’s probably a subject better left for an article on my own blog.