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	<title>Comments on: Can You Be a Christo-Pagan in Prison?</title>
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	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-christo-pagan-in-prison.html</link>
	<description>A modern Pagan perspective</description>
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		<title>By: alvee</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1657</link>
		<dc:creator>alvee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Dec 2010 01:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In fact Christianity is probably the oldest existing pagan religion in the West, since Wicca is a twentieth century invention. History books folks. Read some history books.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In fact Christianity is probably the oldest existing pagan religion in the West, since Wicca is a twentieth century invention. History books folks. Read some history books.</p>
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		<title>By: alvee</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1656</link>
		<dc:creator>alvee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Dec 2010 01:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-a-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1656</guid>
		<description>Christianity is a pagan religion. It is rife with myths and rituals stolen from paganism. To see Christianity as anything other than pagan is simply ignorant.  I suggest T.W.Doane&#039;s monumental work &quot;Christian Myths and Parallel&#039;s in Other Religions.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christianity is a pagan religion. It is rife with myths and rituals stolen from paganism. To see Christianity as anything other than pagan is simply ignorant.  I suggest T.W.Doane&#039;s monumental work &quot;Christian Myths and Parallel&#039;s in Other Religions.&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: D.X.</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1655</link>
		<dc:creator>D.X.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 07:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-a-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1655</guid>
		<description>(I know I&#039;m way late to the party, but I had to comment on this.)

1. the bible quote that so many choose to ignore “thou shall not suffer a witch to live”

&quot;Pagan&quot; does not automatically mean &quot;witch,&quot; nor do all people who fall under the very broad category of &quot;Pagan&quot; practice witchcraft.  Also--note the time period and location in which the statement was written.  What the Jews in the time before Christ&#039;s birth would have considered a witch and witchcraft would have been very different from modern practice and application.  There are also those who believe &quot;witch&quot; to have been a mistranslation of &quot;poisoner&quot; in the original text.

2. Maellus Maleficarum

It was written by a single man (or  two, depending on whether you believe Kramer&#039;s publisher had more than a token role in its creation)  and relied heavily on a book that came before it (Formicarius, by Johannes Nider.  Before the writing of Formicarius, people commonly believed magic was cast by educated men with complex rituals.  This book is what introduced the idea of the uneducated female witch)  Malleus Maleficarum was in an attempt to prove the existence of witchcraft and set up a system of identifying and convicting witches.  Though it did spark many witch-hunts in Europe, it&#039;s more of an example of the effects of propaganda than a testament to the overall behaviour of Christians at that time, let alone Christians today.

And again, pagan =/= witch.

3. Christians are anti women, most Pagans are female

Both statements are gross generalizations.  Not all Christians are anti-women, and there is a good number of male pagans out there.

4. christians are anti magic, or they believe that “only jesus can cast magic”

Actually, there are Christians who, though they don&#039;t claim the label of &quot;Christo-Pagan,&quot; perform spells and rituals in the name of God and/or Christ as a pagan practitioner might do in the name(s) of his or her god(s) and/or goddess(es).

That aside, how does simple belief that the one central to their own religion is the only one who can create miracles by virtue of his divinity repulsive?

5. Catholicism started this way. Ugh. I grew up catholic, I dont want to go back there.

Your preference is your preference, of course, but...Catholicism started out what way, exactly?

6. christo pagans are just out to convert Pagans (ive seen websites that have bible quote after bible quote)

Blanket generalization.  Some might want to convert people to what they feel is right, but that doesn&#039;t mean they ALL do.  Just because someone claims to be Christo-pagan and has Bible verses on their site doesn&#039;t mean they&#039;re out to convert anyone, though.  Sharing is not a conversion attempt.

7. Christianity is monotheistic, Paganism is Polytheistic.

That shows how the two can be at odds (though there are several pagan religions and it&#039;s not impossible that there might be a monotheistic one in the mix), but taking two contradicting things doesn&#039;t automatically make the one who&#039;s trying it &quot;repulsive.&quot;

Also, it&#039;s not impossible for someone to be a pagan and not worship any pagan gods.  There are non-religious witches who consider themselves pagan because they follow what is typically recognised as a pagan practice.

8. Christians have done many many bad things, all christo pagans are doing is tainting Paganism.

Yes, people have done bad things and spilled blood in the name of Christianity, and so have non-Christian people acting on behalf of their own gods.  A Christian would have just as much right to say that Christo-Pagans taint Christianity.  There are no &quot;pure, innocent&quot; religions.

9. Charles Manson is a christo pagan.

His religion had nothing to do with what he did.  He did not act in the name of any religion, and during one of his prison stays before the murders, it was stated that &quot;he never remain[ed] long enough with any given teachings to reap meaningful benefits.&quot;  Around that time, he was claiming to be a Scientologist, not a Christo-Pagan.  He became a sort of God-figure to his family of followers and he encouraged that to manipulate them.  He was a twisted man who used a twisted interpretation of Revelations and the Beatle&#039;s song &quot;Helter Skelter&quot; (IIRC, his &quot;family&quot; even believed the BEATLES were the four Horsemen)as his philosophy.  This speaks more about him than any religion he professed.

10. Dare we forget the Wichtrials that were done by Christians?

And again, a pagan is not always a witch.  And the things that led up to the trials in Salem were a combination of political tension between the people of Salem Village and Salem Town, an unexplainable &quot;illness&quot; with no discernible cause and as such was blamed on bewitching, now thought to be ergot poisoning (a fungus that would have been able to thrive during the spring and summer prior to the craze that began in winter and could have easily contaminated the rye crop), and the afflicted being pressured to name their attackers.

The girls who accused the first &quot;witches&quot; were basically on LSD from contaminated bread and at the time, the supernatural was as likely an explanation as the scientific.  More likely, in fact, since they lacked any real diagnostic technology.  From there, mass hysteria took over.  In such a situation, people will be afraid and want answers.  They want the control that&#039;s been taken from them.  If this had happened in a pagan society of the time, they wouldn&#039;t have known what was happening any better than the Christian colonists did, and there&#039;s nothing to say that those frightened, confused people wouldn&#039;t have done something along the same lines in hopes of feeling in control again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(I know I&#8217;m way late to the party, but I had to comment on this.)</p>
<p>1. the bible quote that so many choose to ignore “thou shall not suffer a witch to live”</p>
<p>&#8220;Pagan&#8221; does not automatically mean &#8220;witch,&#8221; nor do all people who fall under the very broad category of &#8220;Pagan&#8221; practice witchcraft.  Also&#8211;note the time period and location in which the statement was written.  What the Jews in the time before Christ&#8217;s birth would have considered a witch and witchcraft would have been very different from modern practice and application.  There are also those who believe &#8220;witch&#8221; to have been a mistranslation of &#8220;poisoner&#8221; in the original text.</p>
<p>2. Maellus Maleficarum</p>
<p>It was written by a single man (or  two, depending on whether you believe Kramer&#8217;s publisher had more than a token role in its creation)  and relied heavily on a book that came before it (Formicarius, by Johannes Nider.  Before the writing of Formicarius, people commonly believed magic was cast by educated men with complex rituals.  This book is what introduced the idea of the uneducated female witch)  Malleus Maleficarum was in an attempt to prove the existence of witchcraft and set up a system of identifying and convicting witches.  Though it did spark many witch-hunts in Europe, it&#8217;s more of an example of the effects of propaganda than a testament to the overall behaviour of Christians at that time, let alone Christians today.</p>
<p>And again, pagan =/= witch.</p>
<p>3. Christians are anti women, most Pagans are female</p>
<p>Both statements are gross generalizations.  Not all Christians are anti-women, and there is a good number of male pagans out there.</p>
<p>4. christians are anti magic, or they believe that “only jesus can cast magic”</p>
<p>Actually, there are Christians who, though they don&#8217;t claim the label of &#8220;Christo-Pagan,&#8221; perform spells and rituals in the name of God and/or Christ as a pagan practitioner might do in the name(s) of his or her god(s) and/or goddess(es).</p>
<p>That aside, how does simple belief that the one central to their own religion is the only one who can create miracles by virtue of his divinity repulsive?</p>
<p>5. Catholicism started this way. Ugh. I grew up catholic, I dont want to go back there.</p>
<p>Your preference is your preference, of course, but&#8230;Catholicism started out what way, exactly?</p>
<p>6. christo pagans are just out to convert Pagans (ive seen websites that have bible quote after bible quote)</p>
<p>Blanket generalization.  Some might want to convert people to what they feel is right, but that doesn&#8217;t mean they ALL do.  Just because someone claims to be Christo-pagan and has Bible verses on their site doesn&#8217;t mean they&#8217;re out to convert anyone, though.  Sharing is not a conversion attempt.</p>
<p>7. Christianity is monotheistic, Paganism is Polytheistic.</p>
<p>That shows how the two can be at odds (though there are several pagan religions and it&#8217;s not impossible that there might be a monotheistic one in the mix), but taking two contradicting things doesn&#8217;t automatically make the one who&#8217;s trying it &#8220;repulsive.&#8221;</p>
<p>Also, it&#8217;s not impossible for someone to be a pagan and not worship any pagan gods.  There are non-religious witches who consider themselves pagan because they follow what is typically recognised as a pagan practice.</p>
<p>8. Christians have done many many bad things, all christo pagans are doing is tainting Paganism.</p>
<p>Yes, people have done bad things and spilled blood in the name of Christianity, and so have non-Christian people acting on behalf of their own gods.  A Christian would have just as much right to say that Christo-Pagans taint Christianity.  There are no &#8220;pure, innocent&#8221; religions.</p>
<p>9. Charles Manson is a christo pagan.</p>
<p>His religion had nothing to do with what he did.  He did not act in the name of any religion, and during one of his prison stays before the murders, it was stated that &#8220;he never remain[ed] long enough with any given teachings to reap meaningful benefits.&#8221;  Around that time, he was claiming to be a Scientologist, not a Christo-Pagan.  He became a sort of God-figure to his family of followers and he encouraged that to manipulate them.  He was a twisted man who used a twisted interpretation of Revelations and the Beatle&#8217;s song &#8220;Helter Skelter&#8221; (IIRC, his &#8220;family&#8221; even believed the BEATLES were the four Horsemen)as his philosophy.  This speaks more about him than any religion he professed.</p>
<p>10. Dare we forget the Wichtrials that were done by Christians?</p>
<p>And again, a pagan is not always a witch.  And the things that led up to the trials in Salem were a combination of political tension between the people of Salem Village and Salem Town, an unexplainable &#8220;illness&#8221; with no discernible cause and as such was blamed on bewitching, now thought to be ergot poisoning (a fungus that would have been able to thrive during the spring and summer prior to the craze that began in winter and could have easily contaminated the rye crop), and the afflicted being pressured to name their attackers.</p>
<p>The girls who accused the first &#8220;witches&#8221; were basically on LSD from contaminated bread and at the time, the supernatural was as likely an explanation as the scientific.  More likely, in fact, since they lacked any real diagnostic technology.  From there, mass hysteria took over.  In such a situation, people will be afraid and want answers.  They want the control that&#8217;s been taken from them.  If this had happened in a pagan society of the time, they wouldn&#8217;t have known what was happening any better than the Christian colonists did, and there&#8217;s nothing to say that those frightened, confused people wouldn&#8217;t have done something along the same lines in hopes of feeling in control again.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1654</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-a-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1654</guid>
		<description>I dont like christo pagans, they are repulsive. Theres a perfectly good reason for it. 1. the bible quote that so many choose to ignore &quot;thou shall not suffer a witch to live&quot;2. Maellus Maleficarum3. Christians are anti women, most Pagans are female4. christians are anti magic, or they believe that &quot;only jesus can cast magic&quot;5. Catholicism started this way. Ugh. I grew up catholic, I dont want to go back there.6. christo pagans are just out to convert Pagans (ive seen websites that have bible quote after bible quote)7. Christianity is monotheistic, Paganism is Polytheistic.8. Christians have done many many bad things, all christo pagans are doing is tainting Paganism. 9. Charles Manson is a christo pagan.10. Dare we forget the Wichtrials that were done by Christians?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dont like christo pagans, they are repulsive. Theres a perfectly good reason for it. 1. the bible quote that so many choose to ignore &#8220;thou shall not suffer a witch to live&#8221;2. Maellus Maleficarum3. Christians are anti women, most Pagans are female4. christians are anti magic, or they believe that &#8220;only jesus can cast magic&#8221;5. Catholicism started this way. Ugh. I grew up catholic, I dont want to go back there.6. christo pagans are just out to convert Pagans (ive seen websites that have bible quote after bible quote)7. Christianity is monotheistic, Paganism is Polytheistic.8. Christians have done many many bad things, all christo pagans are doing is tainting Paganism. 9. Charles Manson is a christo pagan.10. Dare we forget the Wichtrials that were done by Christians?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1653</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-a-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1653</guid>
		<description>Al,I&#039;m not sure what you heard, you had a unique position knowing some inmates at McNeil - but my position was even more engaging because I was an inmate at McNeil for many years and Tom had no axe to grind with ANY religion, simply the people or persons professing it if they were obviously transparent.What you didn&#039;t see were behind the walls when you left through that front gate.  And what you couldn&#039;t have known is how some inmates used their religion as a spring board for whatever means necessary to undermine the system.  If it was getting around security to smuggle drugs, or gain benefits and privileges only those few in that faith had some of it was a very real scam.I personally knew several inmates who claimed Wiccan and Asatru but ALWAYS shifted when events like cinco-demayo came around just so they could go to those festivities.  In short, their beliefs were commonly transparent and I honestly don&#039;t think you have all the facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Al,I&#8217;m not sure what you heard, you had a unique position knowing some inmates at McNeil &#8211; but my position was even more engaging because I was an inmate at McNeil for many years and Tom had no axe to grind with ANY religion, simply the people or persons professing it if they were obviously transparent.What you didn&#8217;t see were behind the walls when you left through that front gate.  And what you couldn&#8217;t have known is how some inmates used their religion as a spring board for whatever means necessary to undermine the system.  If it was getting around security to smuggle drugs, or gain benefits and privileges only those few in that faith had some of it was a very real scam.I personally knew several inmates who claimed Wiccan and Asatru but ALWAYS shifted when events like cinco-demayo came around just so they could go to those festivities.  In short, their beliefs were commonly transparent and I honestly don&#8217;t think you have all the facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Al</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1652</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-a-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1652</guid>
		<description>Suss! !@!#$@$I was the sponsor for the Wiccan group at McNeil Island for a while, having to take over from a friend who had been doing it for a couple of years when he got called up for Iraq.Suss was *hated* by the Wiccan and Asatru inmates (the latter were forced to meet for holy days with the former as Suss didn&#039;t recognize their group). I was constantly getting reports of Suss&#039; snide comments about paganism from the inmates and covert (and sometimes) overt pressure on them from him. Now, inmates bitch a lot about things that are minor but it was pretty clear at the time that Suss took his role as a Catholic priest to be far more important than wearing the impartial &quot;Prison Chaplain&quot; hat.Everyone is better off with him and his ilk gone from prisons that have to serve people who aren&#039;t simply Christian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suss! !@!#$@$I was the sponsor for the Wiccan group at McNeil Island for a while, having to take over from a friend who had been doing it for a couple of years when he got called up for Iraq.Suss was *hated* by the Wiccan and Asatru inmates (the latter were forced to meet for holy days with the former as Suss didn&#8217;t recognize their group). I was constantly getting reports of Suss&#8217; snide comments about paganism from the inmates and covert (and sometimes) overt pressure on them from him. Now, inmates bitch a lot about things that are minor but it was pretty clear at the time that Suss took his role as a Catholic priest to be far more important than wearing the impartial &#8220;Prison Chaplain&#8221; hat.Everyone is better off with him and his ilk gone from prisons that have to serve people who aren&#8217;t simply Christian.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Pitzl-Waters</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1651</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Pitzl-Waters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 01:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/01/can-you-be-a-christo-pagan-in-prison.html#comment-1651</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;It&#039;s a major dilemma for these chaplains...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;True, it will be a dilemma for many prison chaplains, but it is a dilemma that was bound to happen. Once the lawmakers and courts decided that prisoners have the same basic religious freedoms as law-abiding citizens (barring serious security risks) it was only a matter of time before the issue of claimed dual (or multiple) adherence came around. Many of the problems we see here result from a prison system that wasn&#039;t/isn&#039;t ready for a post-RLUIPA world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;It&#8217;s a major dilemma for these chaplains&#8230;&#8221;</i>True, it will be a dilemma for many prison chaplains, but it is a dilemma that was bound to happen. Once the lawmakers and courts decided that prisoners have the same basic religious freedoms as law-abiding citizens (barring serious security risks) it was only a matter of time before the issue of claimed dual (or multiple) adherence came around. Many of the problems we see here result from a prison system that wasn&#8217;t/isn&#8217;t ready for a post-RLUIPA world.</p>
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