• Matt

    Based on the quote, how do we not know he is just a big fan of the movie "The Craft"?

    • Keith

      You beat me to it. "Watchtowers of the north, the powers of earth and mother" is word for word the lame-ass north quarter call from that ridiculous sea-mammal-killing ritual in 'The Craft'. :-/

      • Vermillion

        Oh I don't know, while most of that film makes me want to beat someone over the head if I look at it from a pagan view I thought the elemental calling was sort of okay.

        Plus the film has a fantastic soundtrack.

  • Bronwen Forbes

    Hey, I've been a morris dancer since 1972! In the States, at least, it's in no immediate danger of dying out.

  • AmericanTrikstr

    More power to the followers of Santeria. Having lived in LA for a couple of years I'm not really sure if I would like the idea of that city being the "capital" for my religion, but it does make sense from a demographic point of view. Such a resurgence could cause them to butt-heads with the rather conservative Catholic population in the area.

    Dateline Fails once more. I don't think I need to go into why as Jason already did a good job at pointing out the, well, blatant ignorance on their part. I'm still waiting for the day some crack-pot obsessed with Final Fantasy kills a bunch of people and the media somehow twists it to show that his "occult beliefs" lead to the killings.

    "You see, in his notes he keeps referring to "Fire 3" and summoning "Odin". Now Fire is a sacred element in some pagan circles and Odin is a deity worshiped in the pre-Christian Nordic tradition so, as you can see, this is consistent with Wicca."

    Tell me how that makes any less sense than what the media parrots. :)

  • http://chrysalis1witchesjourney.wordpress.com/ Pax

    Well folks,

    Until and unless Witches, Wiccans, and Pagans get off our collective butts and start being upstanding participatory members of society to the point that society notices THAT, then we are going to continue to be defined in the public mind by our worst and nuttiest and most sensationalistic news story worthy members and hangers on.

    Pax

    • AmericanTrikstr

      Aight, time to play Loki's Advocate.

      There are many pagans who are upstanding participatory members of society, ranging from those that serve in the military to social workers to scientists. Problem is sensationalism sells. "Local pagan lawyer fights for civil rights"? Meh, page 7 story as best and probably won't have any effect on sales. "Local crazy-person invokes a "pagan" ceremony before killing two hikers"? Bam, page 1, sell a whole lot of papers, make a whole lot of money.

      As individuals pagans are no less upstanding than anyone else. I suppose a pagan who gets some media attention for doing something good, such as the theoretical lawyer I mentioned above, could bring attention to his/her beliefs but there are problems with that as well. For one it's being just as sensational as the article above. While the intent at least would be positive it's still dragging one's spiritual beliefs into a topic where the actions of the individual are important not his/her personal belief. It would also be a little demeaning because our imaginary lawyer here is basically saying "See? I'm a pagan and I do good things. I'm proof that we're not all insane!" We shouldn't have to beg others to accept our religions is valid.

      Now we could bring about a unified front for a social cause, such as poverty, but that wouldn't achieve the goals you seek either. If say a coven had a hunger drive and a paper or news show decided to do a story on it the content of the story would be very light on the cause. Instead it would focus mostly on the "strange" beliefs of said coven and you would basically get another "meet the local witches" story instead of the "local witches help for the benefit of society" story. You'd probably also get a healthy dose of misinformation as the paper wouldn't get a lot of things right, such as the fact that "paganism" is an umbrella term for different religions, which would make understanding even more difficult. A national movement is pretty much out of the question because, even though we appear to be growing, we're still far too small in number to make a big enough impact.

      I'm with you in spirit but I don't see the fault being with the actions of pagans. The change that you are proposing is a cultural one and the biggest factor in a cultural change is time. While our desire to change public perception is necessary it's a slow process that will take generations. We're also at a bit of a handicap compared to other cultural movements, such as minority civil rights, because our selection of religion is a choice instead of genetics.

      Hope some of that made sense, it be early here. Apologize to anyone that gets annoyed with my wall o' text. Get some tea (if you're Wiccan) or a beer (if you're a Heathen) or some coffee (if you're…um…need help with this one) and discuss. :)

  • Morgan Greywolf

    Randall Lee Smith was nothing more than a crazed lunatic in serious need of professional help. Anyway, I encourage everyone to write Dateline and tell them the truth — the watchtowers aren’t even specific to Wicca: they come from ceremonial magick and have been practiced by Judaeo-Christian practitioners for ages. Yeah, that’s right, the lines were consistent with Christianity! Stoned Phillips can stick that in his pipe and smoke it!

  • Ken D

    "Did they think that adding a “Witch angle” would make things more exciting for their viewers?" No, adding the "Witch angel" would make it more factual, the fact being that Randall's "invocation" prayer allowed a fallen angel to possess him which led to the murders.

    The facts are that paganism/heathenism is nothing else but worship of fallen angels. Fallen angels are the epitome of evil. The Biblical God is the ultimate and sole source of good. Therefore anyone opting for fallen angel religion has been duped into the epitome of spiritual failure. Sorry that this is continuing to ruin human beings but the day of judgment will clean it all up forever.
    Ken

  • Jason Pitzl-Waters

    You must be a ton of fun at parties Ken!

  • Lasher

    You know, I know people generally hate The Craft, but I love it. Sure, it's not true to life, but who cares? It's still a great movie. Besides, I wish I could fly and morph through walls.

    And they didn't kill just sea mammals. Mostly it was sharks.

  • Erin

    And what exactly is a 'spiritual failure'?

  • Aron R

    Silly bigot; our Gods are dumb idols, not fallen angels.
    Was "Witch angel" a pun or a typo?

    • AmericanTrikstr

      "Was "Witch angel" a pun or a typo? "

      I was wondering the same thing. Makes about as much sense as "pagan saint" or "heathen messiah".

  • AmericanTrikstr

    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

    Your trolling is weak kid. Your ignorance however is quite amusing.

    I'd say don't bother feeding the troll anymore people, unless he comes back. He won't though, 'cause most idiots like him are also cowards.

  • AmericanTrikstr

    Can we invite him to our next pagan oral sex party? I hear they're all the rage these days. :)

  • http://www.carolinagrove.org Snoozepossum

    "The Biblical God is the ultimate and sole source of good."

    Er, Homes, yer leavin' out the other two-thirds of the Trinity, there, y'know? Gonna make Jesus & The Spirit feel unloved with a diss like that.

    Where did this guy come from, and did anyone save the receipt?

  • Everglade

    My Angel's Fallen, and it can't get up..

  • chuck_cosimano

    If an angel falls in a forest and no one is around, does he still scream as he falls?

  • Matt

    Everytime and angel falls, does an angle get its wings?

  • Matt

    Crap, I can't spell either. "An" not "And"…duh.

  • Ken D

    If you want to know, I got here because I saw the Dateline story referenced above and searched for more info.

    I’m not a scaredy-cat anymore but I don’t debate. That’s like trying to put out a fire by throwing gas on it. I just throw out the truth and let you deal with it.

    Oh, thanks for the correction, it should be “witch angle” although the spirits giving power to witches are angels, fallen ones of course.

    You can call me a troll, etc. fine, but just recognize that placing a negative connotation on any free expression that rocks the boat of one’s religious comfort zone on their favorite religious website, even if one is deceived, is merely a way of closing the mind to getting out of my deception because, well you know, the pride thing.

    • Jason Pitzl-Waters

      I believe you were the one who started the name-calling and negative connotations here Ken. You seem to be a big fan of "rocking the boat" so long as you stay anonymous, why not share your e-mail address with my audience so you don't have to clutter up my comments with your anti-Pagan prattling?

    • http://www.carolinagrove.org Snoozepossum

      I found it! Wal-Mart does have a return policy!

      If someone from one high school goes to another high school's class reunion picnic in a public park, and stands in the middle of the gathering and starts ranting about how crappy their school was, how bad their sports teams were, and how most of the grads have turned out to be criminals and losers, they're a Troll. Yep, it's a public park. Yep, it's technically free speech. But it's effectively not much different from letting your dog piss in someone else's yard, when he has plenty of other fine places to TCB.

      When you go on a site with a specific interest and take potshots at that interest, trolling is exactly what you're doing. And responses like this just make you look like you're serving your own pride far more than any honest pride in Christ.

    • AmericanTrikstr

      I called you a troll because that's exactly what you are. By your own admission you say you don't debate, so the only other reason you could possibly have to come here was to piss-off a bunch of pagans. Too bad you failed miserably. You are rather entertaining though, so I don't mind if you keep coming back. Jason might not like it though since you'll be taking up comment space.

  • Ken D

    In my younger days, I was enchanted with the supernatural, both good and evil (I thought all supernatural was ok). They didn’t seem to be much different from one another because all the churches I knew of taught eternal torment in hell which if it were true didn’t place “God” in much better position than the “devil.” How glad I was to find that although taught for centuries, “eternal hell” is really not Biblical at all, but a clever twisting of Scripture. When Jesus mentioned “everlasting punishment,” that’s not the same as “everlasting punishING”. Actually, evil is cleaned up forever and will not exist anymore anywhere including a place called hell, so that is more in line with what Jesus taught and in line with the mercy of God. I learned this and many other eye-opening messages from Seventh-day Adventists.

  • Ken D

    On the expression, “God of Scripture”, that means the “Trinity” or Godhead membership of Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. That is understood as “one God”. Think of “God” as the family name rather than individual member, although it is just as appropriate to refer to any member as “God”. For example, Robert Clarkson can say, “I’m a Clarkson.” although the family of the Clarksons has many members, but they are all equal as far as their identity as humans. So the members of the “Trinity” are equal as for their identity and likeness. Because of that, the “Trinity” is not polytheism with its hierarchy and all that. When one worships “God” they can worship Jesus, that is also worshipping all three at the same time because all have the same character, likeness, and absolute power. Read John 14.

    “Spiritual failure” – is the absence of a relationship connection with the “God of Scripture.”

  • Ken D

    Another correction – ("my deception" should be "one's deception".)

  • http://www.carolinagrove.org Snoozepossum

    No, but Domo-kun stops chasing that kitten . . . .

    (ducks)

  • AmericanTrikstr

    2/10. You need to work on your trolling, son.

  • PJ Graham

    Yeah, but as a former editor who saw that a LOT, it was pretty darn funny.

  • TinktheTank

    Ho hum… reminds me of the hippy Christian chick that came to our drum circle to convert. We all just sorta… stopped listening.

    Have a nice day, Ken! Glad your happy with your deity.

  • AmericanTrikstr

    You magnificent bastard. It's a crime that I can't up-vote you more than once.

    • http://www.carolinagrove.org Snoozepossum

      "You magnificent bastard"

      Hey! I was at my parents' wedding!
      (curtsies) Thanx muchly! A girl does what she can, and that's the best thing I've been called all week!

  • http://chrysalis1witchesjourney.wordpress.com/ Pax

    You raise some great points and many that I agree with…

    By and large, however, as has been explored in stories on this very blog recently, the vast majority of folks don't really know much about Wicca or any of the other forms of Paganism.

    The main example, source of information, and reference point for most of our fellow citizens on who or what Pagans are and are about is either…

    A) Sensationalistic News Stories about misguided murderers and child molesters who just happened to be dabblers in or on the fringes of Paganism.

    OR

    B) Extremist Fundamentalist Christian writings about Paganism.

    You are right, we shouldn't have to beg for others to accept our religion as valid… but until and unless our fellow citizens have some accurate picture of who we need bloody well need to start do something! Yes, there are upstanding, and charitable, members of our community… that's part of my point… why don't WE ever want to applaud them or see the wider media applaud them?

    I would much rather see us getting some sensationalistic reporting about "those whacky Pagans just raised 1 million for disaster relief through Avalon Cares…" or "Those Pagans at Cherry Hill University sends it's first Rhodes Scholar to England" or "Local Pagan Lawer argues Civil Rights before Supreme Court"; than see one more story where some sick twisted soul's lite dabbling in Paganism and Occult is taken by the authorities/reporters as a sign of their problems….

    There should not, especially in the United States with its long history of struggling towards Freedom of Religion, be a need for 'the broom closet'.

    Whenever a news story like this comes out there is a lot of complaining about how the media portrays us, and how its unfair, and how the current psycho in question wasn't really involved in things…

    Yet, often, when ideas are put forth that maybe we as a community need to stand up for ourselves economically and socially and legally ~ in order to show the larger world who and what we truly are there inevitably are a chorus of voices shouting out "Nay, nay!"

    Why?!

    Aren't our faiths and philosophies worth it, aren't our Goddesses and Gods worth it, how about us… are we worth it?

    • http://www.carolinagrove.org Snoozepossum

      & Trikstr:
      Hai, honto to both points. So whaddaya do? We call it Being A Good Neighbor.

      First, do something worth commenting on that benefits the whole community, not just the Pagan/Heathen/Alternative religion (PHA) elements. WARNING: the following text contains activities that require you to get off yer butt and possibly get your hands dirty, literally or metaphorically.

      Actions speak way louder than any words you can come up with. Volunteer to walk dogs or clean kennels or cages at an animal shelter. Read at the public library or a nursing home. Transport for your local Meals-On-Wheels or DAV medical care liaison. Write letters to service people who don't get anything from home. The possibilities are endless.

      Does your municipality have a litter clean-up volunteer program? This is a grow-a-set opportunity – everywhere can use it, nobody wants to do it, and many people will run away so fast they leave skidmarks when people start talking about it. North Carolina DOT has an Adopt-A-Highway program where they'll put your group's name on a roadside sign of whatever stretch of road you contract to clean every month. Our local office has gotten some petty bitchery from a few local fundies about it, but the Director has gone on record as saying that until the roadways are so clean they don't need any volunteers, as long as the group is keeping it clean, the signs stay. That was all over the newspaper here awhile back.

      The other aspect to this is that you do it as a citizen first, and a PHA second. Let people get to know you and see you doing quality work first. Then when somebody goes, "But _______ is one a' them devil-worshippers!", most honest people will respond with "Whatever. ______ is also doing a good job, and we don't have enough volunteers as it is." There will always be jerks who put sensationalist hype before the evidence of their own eyes, but the more you do, the more their jerkism becomes apparent.

      Second, show support for news and other media entities who DO report positively on PHAs. That DOT director got letters from us thanking him for his standpoint, and the very professional and fair-minded reporter who covered it got kudos for giving the pagan community an unbiased presentation. Most of the media leans toward whatever view they think will make the public happy. The more they find out that displeasing the ultra-conservative Christian faction isn't the same as displeasing all the people, the more they'll risk stories about PHAs being worthwhile people.

      (Apologies – continued next with Jason's approval)

  • http://www.carolinagrove.org Snoozepossum

    (continued from above if Jason okayed it)
    it works. Pagan Pride Day makes a food pantry drive a point of it's events. For the last several years, the major local food bank has refused any donations from our Pagan Pride Day event, period. So we gave to animal rescues and other charities. This past year, their new director overturned the policy, and they were even nice when we talked to them. It's baby steps, but I'll take it.

    If you want others to see you with an unprejudiced eye, you have to give them a reason to look twice.

  • Ken D.

    Well, trolling is not my profession. If one flips on a light when everybody wants it dark, it's worth the risk of all the complaints if there is even one person who might reflect, hey, maybe that light doesn't look so bad afterall. Is that trolling or fishing? I'll turn it off now. See ya.

    • Dragonfly

      If you want to go around "flipping on lights", how about doing it in your own house…and stay out of mine unless you are invited. You see, we really ARE glad you are happy with your deity/spiritual path/religion. We just wish you'd leave us to be happy with ours. You are not here to discuss or debate – you are only here to foist your beliefs on others- a knee jerk reaction, I think, of someone so insecure with their own beliefs, any others scare the crap (excuse me, the you-have-to-believe-what-I-believe-it's-the-only-true-way speil) out of you. The lights in my room are NOT out, you just closed your eyes when you looked in for fear you'd see…what?

  • http://rivergarth.blogspot.com/ Morning Angel

    "Fallen angels are the epitome of evil."

    Is he talking about me? O^O

  • http://rivergarth.blogspot.com/ Morning_Angel

    I wasn't properly logged in for my earlier comment. Sorry about that; I didn't intend to post anonymously. Here's another go at it so my profile is accessible. Hopefully, my picture appears this time.

  • Jason Pitzl-Waters

    Your self-delusion must be incredibly comforting.

  • AmericanTrikstr

    Both you and Snooze make good points. For the record I'm agreeing with what you say, and the examples Snooze gives are good ones. Was mostly just providing a counter-argument, hence the "Loki's Advocate" disclaimer. :)

    One thing about community service or charity, though, is that I have always viewed that if you do it for media attention, you're doing it for the wrong reasons. If the media comes by to check it out, awesome. But for me personally, I couldn't rationalize a reason to inform the media about charitable work myself or another pagan group is doing. Wouldn't be able to shake off the idea that I'm being an attention whore, even if it's in a minor way or for a good reason/cause.

    If anything the only reason I would contact the media would be to bring attention to the cause of the charity, like same homelessness. But given how the media acts I know the article would be all about the pagans and barely about the cause.

  • AmericanTrikstr

    Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

    I wouldn't want butt-prints on Jason's new door.

  • AmericanTrikstr

    Methinks your logic and reasoning is wasted on him. For fun, here's how I take the light metaphor.

    The light in my room is blue, because I like blue. Kevin comes in.

    Kevin: "That's the wrong colored light."
    Me: "Excuse me?"
    Kevin: "Light isn't suppose to be blue. It should be white."
    Me: "But I like blue."
    Kevin: "The blue light is a false light."
    Me: "It seems to be illuminating the room just fine to me."
    Kevin: "Well you are wrong. People should only have white light in their rooms."
    Me: "Man, you're gonna hate the UUs then. They have more colored lights than a Christmas tree."

  • http://chrysalis1witchesjourney.wordpress.com/ Pax

    Well, certainly the seeking of publicity should never be the ONLY reason one is involved in charitable work!

    I really do not understand why so many people have so much trouble with the idea of writing "Pagan Community" in the donated by line of a form … or of supporting and volunteering at some specifically Pagan run charities as well as other charities…

    It just seems to me if we supported our own community by supporting Pagan run Charities and pagan operated non-profits it would be good for both our community and the larger community… but folks seem to have some real problems with that.

  • Dragonfly

    Yeah, I know it's wasted. But, sometimes ya just gotta say something, even if it's to deaf ears. Your light metaphor is spot on, for fun or not. Sometimes, when the JW's & Mormons knock on my door it's really hard to not "proslytize" right back at 'em. You know, just for fun!

  • http://hereinthecaveofwonder.blogspot.com Lonnie

    Hey, I found this regarding Randall Lee Smith, and his previous murders:

    "He noted that the possessions of the murdered hikers were buried and hidden in a complex pattern aligned with compass points, as if Smith wanted to be sure he could find them later. "

    So… it may be that even back during the first murder he had some sort of twisted idea that he was performing some kind of "wiccan ritual".

    I'm surprised no one has drawn that connection yet…

    It's a shame that this occured in my own fair state. It makes me think we should take up a collection or something to donate to the victims.

  • campfour

    I know for a fact that Randall was a Wicca,because I served eight years in prison with him. He was far from being a loner in prison and he always played dumb…..