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Quick Note: The Sexual Politics of The Frosts

I’m on the road today, making a normal post difficult, but I do have a quick item I wanted to share with you. A couple bloggers have been discussing a brand new book from the controversy-loving mail-order-Witchcraft mavens Gavin and Yvonne Frost. While Chas Clifton found much to admire in “Good Witches Fly Smoothly: Surviving Witchcraft”, fellow Pagan blogger Hecate found at least one passage troubling.

“Any initiatory sex should be with a “stranger” — an initiated Witch of the coven [that] the neophyte plans to join. . . . The underlying tradition here is sometimes overlooked. If the Craft means enough to you that you are willing to abide by its tenets then abide by them! If you cannot transcend your cultural brainwashing and accept the assignment to have sex one time with an assigned partner, in accordance with centuries of Craft tradition, the Craft can’t mean that much to you. Here’s the door. Don’t call yourself a Witch.”

This prompts Hecate to make the following disclaimer regarding the Frosts:

This is just wrong. And I need to point out the wrongness so that any young or impressionable people new to Wicca, who may stumble upon the Frosts’ work, don’t believe what the Frosts say about initiation and sex.

After the last major storm over their sexual politics, you have to wonder what the Frosts are playing at. Are they, as some defenders have asserted, being shocking on purpose in order to stir the cauldron? Creating controversy to boost sales? Or are they, as their most vocal critics say, sick people with a warped moral compass. Personally, I think the Frosts started out by wanting to trigger debate and controversy but have begun to believe their own hype over the years. After all, there’s no such thing as bad press right? Needless to say, I haven’t run into a Witch or Wiccan group, traditonal or eclectic, who demanded sexual congress with a “stranger” for an initiatory process. Have you?

36 responses so far

  • morgan greywolf

    Having met with and talked wit h the Frosts, I wouldn’t use the term “depraved”. Rather I think they are just “old-fashioned”. It is important to keep in mind that back when they became involved in the Craft in England, their ideas were the norm

  • http://tlholladay1128.blogspot.com Tracie the Red

    Way to spread some really weird diseases around, Frosts.

  • Rhomylly Forbes

    I agree. Your comment is awesome!

  • http://witchesandscientists.blogspot.com Gene

    Ick! I feel violated and need a shower.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/pannekoek pannekoek

    Well at least the Frosts are no longer advocating initiating children that way….

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/AmericanTrikstr AmericanTrikstr

    Pretty much a theological facepalm.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/AmericanTrikstr AmericanTrikstr

    How is that term true at all?

  • Peg A.

    Moonrise. And a letter from Mr. Klein also appeared in Green Egg. Ah, zines.

  • Rhomylly Forbes

    That would be it. I'm getting senile, I guess!

  • Amy S.

    Take a step to Africa, where the computers aren't

    I see you know nothing about modern Africa at all, period.

  • mist

    Oh and I have to crib some of the writing because there is a limit on post length.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Nope Nope

    Hey Jason! (waves madly)

    We went over 100 – can we all have a cookie?
    (pours a glass of milk and looks hopeful)

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Nope Nope

    Hey Bjorn, borrow yer broadaxe fer a mo? I'll clean it up before i give it back, honest!

  • mist

    Hmph.
    My milk looks soured.
    ;)

  • Bjorn Odinsson

    Of course Snoozepossum, but I must use it first ;)

  • Tracie the Red

    One thing I have learned over the years: do NOT take on a Heathen about Heathenry.

    *sits back and watches, munching popcorn*

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Nope Nope

    (The Possum plops down on the floor with a box of Raisinets and a mop & bucket)

    Trade ya.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Nope Nope

    Well, okay. I DID bring a mop . . . .

  • Bjorn Odinsson

    Hehe good, it is probably going to get messy ; )

  • Bjorn Odinsson

    Lol good call Tracie. . .I like you ;-)

  • mist

    New Zealand, is the country.
    The poor English? Too many years programming computers and experimenting in deconstructive, & "wicca-like" balancing of thought patterns.

  • Aron

    Wow, it's like the Green Egg Forum in here! Fantastic!

  • Tracie the Red

    Oh Possum, I'm not a raisin fan. Or coconut, so Mounds and Almond Joy are out.

    Milk Duds, however…

  • Tracie the Red

    Bjorn, darling, I live with an Odinsman. I know how this goes.

  • mist

    "What they do not have the right to do is to demand that everyone else, regardless of tradition, adhere to the same values:"

    Says who?

  • Miles Batty

    How would you like it if someone came up to you and told you that the way YOU practice your faith is WRONG, it's only right if you do it THEIR way. Would you accept that?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/AmericanTrikstr AmericanTrikstr

    Can I have a brownie instead?

  • Bjorn Odinsson

    I've got some mead Trikstr, good local Colorado Mead with Rocky Mountain honey. . .oh Gods. . .it is divine!

  • Bjorn Odinsson

    Agreed, it is the absolutist nature of their claim, that Frostian Wicca is the only path to "true witchcraft", great parallel btw RE christians – frosts.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Nope Nope

    (bows) I'm in!

  • http://www.thegreenwolf.com Lupa

    Come to Portland. We have Voodoo Doughnut (dot com).

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Nope Nope

    Good Gods, I'd have to constantly run laps around the building with a dog under each arm if I lived there!

    I love the PR knickers!

  • Tracie the Red

    Did I hear a fly buzzing?

  • Bjorn Odinsson

    oooh. . .redhead. . .hi : )

  • mist

    No flies on me. Must be your end.

  • Bjorn Odinsson

    Lol love the fried potatoe, sour-cream and guinness idea. . .shudders at the thought of raspberry cordial in guinness. . .things that make ya go blechhhh. : )