Damn, St. Patrick looks ripped in that pic! I don't know who those other two on the right are. Given the context of it I want to say they're a couple of pagan gods, but I honestly don't know.

Oh and green beer is disgusting. Drink like the Irish and get some whisky.

It's the one day of the year when I wear orange.

I think the snakes look really buff. Hsssssssssss……

Thank you, Jason! As an American mutt with some Irish blood, I always enjoy St. Patty's Day. And if you don't like the whole St. Patty's Day thing, it's still a great excuse to wear green and spiritually encourage nature to follow suit as we head toward the spring equinox.

And definitely stick with brown or amber beer – dye the eggs, not the beer.

St. Patrick was sent to suppress the < a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagian">Pelagian heresy, which was by far a form of Christianity far more amenable to paganism. While Patrick did do some good things, like appointing women to positions of power, he was also responsible for burning countless works of Celtic literature. He personally bears much of the responsibility for missing knowledge about the ancient Celts. Plus, according to his own words, there were still Pagans in Ireland at that time, and he was actively engaged in eliminating the last of them, even if he wasn't the first to do so.

So, snakes aside, I can't say that I really want to celebrate this guy. His legacy, although decidedly mixed, did harm to paganism in Europe and impaired out ability to know our own history. A friend of mine once spoke even of a Irish Calholic priest she knew that despised Patrick for the damage he did to their history and culture.

I agree with you Lonnie. I personally refuse to celebrate St. Paddy's day beyond drinking a little extra with my friends. I think that ultimately the American holiday has become somewhat of an insult to Irish ancestry. A large part of my heritage is Irish on my mother's side, so the caricatures of green-beads, green beer, leprechauns corned beef and cabbage (which was actually not originally an "Irish delicacy", but was rather adopted after the immigration due to the Potatoe Famine since the meat and cabbage was cheap) insulting.

The Irish were never loved in this country, in fact often times they were treated with more hatred and biggotry than the slaves. A lot of violence was perpetrated by Americans on the Irish immigrants in the late 1800's. Few realize that the saying "the luck of the Irish" is an ironic statement rather than a compliment. The Irish have never been lucky, having been under the oppression of one tyrant or another for over one thousand years.

Celebrating a culture-traitor such as St. Patrick would just be one more slap in the face for Irish folk, thus I abstain.

Well, if you want to get sloshed and welcome Spring without celebrating the Christianization of Ireland, bear in mind it's also Liberalia. Drink up!

Liberalia? I'll have to google it! Thanks Aron!

Prefers a good Vlack and Tan..Guiness and Harp..now theres some good drinkin.

Black even..lol yes i have been drinking

Haha, you know that the Black and Tan is named after brutal English police squads who slaughtered Irish people during the occupation, due to the Black and Tan uniforms they wore. Quite an ironic drink to have during St. Patrick's Day.

Ye and verily. St. Patrick came to Ireland to cast away all false beers, and institute Guinness, the One True Holy Beer, which we take communion of today in remembrance.

Green beer is an American heresy, and though shalt burn for an eternity if thee partakes of it.

Yes, that is why if one orders such a drink in Ireland, one always orders a "half and half". . .yikes!

Lol Ursus

Its Kinda like the 2 best Irish Whiskeys for me at least Are Bushmills and Jameson.. along with a close runner up is Cardhu..As far as Scotch whiskeys i like Glenfiddich, and the Balvenie.. preferably at least 15 years old. Only american Bourbon i want would be the Special Jim Beam 50 year, or Johnny Walker Gold or Blue.. Whiskey truely is the Water of Life

I'll take a Smithwick's or Murphy's Irish Red instead, thanks.

"Since Patrick didn’t actually cast the literal or metaphorical snakes out of Ireland, I see no issue in wishing my Irish, Irish-descended, and Irish-loving readers a happy St. Patrick’s Day."

I was always under the impression that St. Patrick *drove* the snakes out of Ireland.

Wow that article "Where Have All the Gardners and Crowleys Gone? (An Answer)" is a confusing ranty thing isn't it?

My response is long so I posted it at my own journal: http://dubhlainn.livejournal.com/243626.html

You know, it seems like the general article quality on Witchvox has gone way down…it seems like there is a lot more angst muffinry and bs on there than I remember from "back in the day?"

Is this just my own journey from Pagan Newbie to Jaded Pagan or what?!?

Sincerity and mischief,
Pax

Ive never read the Articles on Witchvox.. except for maybe stuff from Peg Aloi or Fritz or Wren..Not much on there that pertains to my flavor of Paganism.. Mainly being Druidry. Yes there are some .. but like i say not much. Mostly im on Witchvox for the networking aspect

I am not Irish but from an outsider that loves all this is my slant. That was then and this is now. One could really go on about all kinds of oppression with alot of different cultures. What about the blacks the first nations the jews, women and on and on. It has gone on for centurys. If not a culture then a religion or what sex your were.

Honestly, I don't know that most North Americans no much about the history of St. Patricks day. I used to think it was just celebrating the Irish culture and heritage. Obviously I wasn't in the loop or did not care and now a few friends have talked a bit more about St. Patrick to me and well, this year was the first year I did not say Happy St. Patricks day to people. As far as I can see, St. Patrick took away their true heritage and they are still celebrating him?

I have also been studying more on Celtic Mythology so want to be more aware of history. Either way, I wouldn't take it personal. I don't think it is meant to be a slap in the face to the Irish, it is just another way for people to make money & have fun.

Re why are there no trailblazers like Crowley and Gardner, a lot of the discussion is boiling down to money, as in the $100/hr question. I think that points to something very pertinent. I notice that some people still have the idea that accepting money for magical or spiritual work is wrong. It is wrong if you are an amateur, yes. The definition of a professional is someone who has gone through long training in order to become competent and to be paid for their work. I've got a website (not the one in the url) where I've worked on for almost a decade to put up over 500 pages of information about various products relating to magic that I sell, including a lot of info about growing and using plants for magic that comes out of 25 years of gardening. In that time I have repeatedly found people who call themselves pagans selling my entire website as "their" book, using it without my permission in their "classes" or their discussion lists, or using it to sell products in their own online store. In every single case where I have caught someone doing that, I have never gotten an admission that what they were doing was theft. In fact, I have been lectured by some of them about how there is something wrong with me because I don't want to "share" my work (when in fact I do share my work–anyone online can read it for free, on my site, which I use to make my living). I have found a similar dynamic at work in the pagan community in general–the lack of respect for other people's work, the willingness to steal other's work in order to puff oneself up. Look at all the ripping off of even cheap books like Scott Cunningham's, which is ruthlessly pirated all over the internet in order to provide a "service"–that is, bring visitors to one's site. THAT is why no one is willing to pay $100 for a lecture, although they will pay that much to go see certain bands or for a couple months of cable, which no one in the world actually needs. For some time I have been working on a book on a neglected area of witchcraft that I am knowledgeable about, but I have not gone far with it simply because I know it will simply be stolen and turn up on endless websites and in book form on Lulu and ebay. Yet these same people would never dream of taking someone else's car for a joyride and would be rightly suspicious of any doctor or dentist who provided their work gratis.

There are trailblazers out there, but they are facing this same problem–that their work is not respected and so their books end up as torrents. <shrug> If people won't even pay for a book, they sure are not going to pay for a lecture.

One man does not convert an entire island of pagans. Ireland's conversion was a gradual process and the result of various mission trips by various Christian missionaries (that were bloodless and peaceful, by the way).

While Patrick's hagiographies and exploits are fascinating, they cannot be taken as reliable portrayals of historical reality. The saints subsumed the heroic tradition of Ireland, in a way, and became the new heroes of the age, so their exploits were exaggerated and even mythologized. Burning books (it's unlikely the pre-Christian Irish had/ wrote books) and crushing the brains of druids probably never actually happened, but then again, as the Irish would say: facts don't matter, the story does.

Also, Irish Gaelic culture did not die out with the advent of Christianity. Yes, it's pre-Christian religion was losing practice, but Irish Gaelic culture and heritage was still maintained exceptionally well and, in fact, even experienced a golden age from the sixth to the ninth century. Cambro- and Anglo-Norman, and later English settlements and conquests had more of a devastating impact on the native culture than did Christianity. Don't forget, too, that it was Christian scribes who recorded the old myths, legends and sagas of pre-Christian Europe.

The last line should read 'it was Christian scribes who recorded the old myths, legends and sagas of pre-Christian IRELAND.' Though, the same applies to Europe as well, for the most part.

"Celebrating a culture-traitor such as St. Patrick would just be one more slap in the face for Irish folk, thus I abstain."

Those are harsh words towards a figure who, in Ireland, is a cultural and national hero celebrated next to the likes of Fionn and Cú.

Yes, St. Patrick and St. Columba are regarded as heroes in Ireland. . .but Ireland is still very much under the cultural conditioning of the Xtian faith. I understand that theirs is not the same fanatical fundamentalism of many American Xtian sects, but it still wiped out a lot of history, knowledge and Pagan culture. I have heard the argument made that Celtic Recons should be thankful for the missionary scribes who wrote down large portions of the oral tales of heroes and invasions. . .and in some cases I agree. I am thankful for a historical tome to sift through. . .however I am not thankful that the old religion was replaced and diluted in the ways it was in Ireland.

I won't try to argue to hard against Xtian influence in Ireland, since they were some of the first European converts and theirs was a bloodless (one of the only) conversion. They got what they deserved in my opinion, by welcoming the black-clad priests. At least the other side of my heritage, the Swedes and Germans fought against the Xtian tide, Sweden being one of the last European countries to convert, and only after much duress, economic extortion and violence.

Yep, but Yuengling's B & T is good enough to redeem the name . . . now if we could just get the doofs around here to stock their chocolate stout . . .
(salutes)

No Laphroaig or Pinch? ;0)

Nawp, yer not alone there. Last few times I was on, Wren & Crew were still digging out relevant info, and there are always exceptions in any arena. But there was a hefty amount of cheese and whine in the essays, and the comments were mostly petty bitchery, often by people who didn't score well in Reading Comprehension.

Give it a hundred years maybe. The pagan ways are rising quickly. You can't help but hear the beat of the drum of mother earth as she is calling us all back. Are the old ways not in our dna? If you believe in quantum physics you may say that the remembering is there. But depending on where you are in the world will make a difference on how you are influenced by those surrounding you. Luckily we have the internet so that is of course helpful. Maybe someone on this list that is from Ireland can enlighten us all on what is going on in that country concerning the rise of paganism in the rest of the world. After all…. the Sidhe live in the hills there….do they not?

I meant to say the rise of paganism in Ireland in the second last sentance.
ie the rise of paganism in Ireland.

Re: Trailblazers-

Just because she hasn't taken the time to search out and meet any "impessive" HPs or HPSs, doesn't mean they don't exist. Her whole tone is just condescending and obnoxious. I found it very hard to read though it.

This is why I spend my time reading Pagan blogs and not Witchvox. A lot of their articles are as uneducated and annoying as this one.

However, I do agree with her on the idea that we should be compensating our elders in some way, though. Also, it would be nice if we could figure out ways to keep our elders from burning out. Perhaps that compensation will help. Perhaps not vacillating between interactions with acolytes and skeptics will help too.

It can be hard though, especially when one is a dewy-eyed noob, to keep your wits about you when you meet someone who has something more to teach you than correspondence tables. I know that I had that issue. How to combat that… I don't really know…

Maybe its not combating that phenomena, per se , but providing training to people interested in leading and teaching that deals with wiping sparkles out of peoples eyes, gently but firmly.

And concerning the other end of the scale, I think that as we mainstream, the less really hostile skeptics we'll find. Or at least we'll have a bigger community to get support from after bad interactions.

I have to agree, Yuengling's B&T is totally delicious.

Good thoughts here Tink, I agree with you and with Harry that as we organize and propagate that we must address the issue of compensation. I think Gardner was full of it when he said a witch should not charge for their work. When's the last time you met a plumber who works for free, or any tradesperson for that matter.

I do believe that we must begin instituting more Pagan Seminaries so that strictures can be placed on what makes a member of the Pagan clergy. Some will revolt against this idea, saying that no person has the authority to delineate Spirit, but I disagree. I check into the certifications of those whose services I seek out. The plumber allegory gets some more mileage here. No one would walk up to a random person on the street, hand them a monkey-wrench and ask them to fix their pipes. Pagans shouldn't be seeking out teaching and spiritual counsel in such a irresponsible way either.

If someone trusts another enough to ask them their advice (and pay for it), then that person offering such a service should be able to show their dedication through a seminary degree. I know this is a long way off, but it is something the Pagan community should be considering imo.

Yeah, I've given up on Witchvox too. The comments have never been that great but they've become only worse over time. As for the "essays", with the exception of a few gems that crop up every so often most of them just repeat the same themes over and over and over again.

I suppose it's a good site to visit still if you're just starting out, give you a taste of the community. But after being part of said community for a little while, one does yern for something with a little more substance.

Hey Trikstr,

I wouldn't say I've given up on Witchvox… I just want to better understand why it seems like the quality of essay has gone down hill. Part of my own plan is to start submitting things to Witchvox… seeing if I can lead by example!

Peace,
Pax

*golf clap* Well played.

Harry, I am Always looking for new websites with information on aspects of Paganism. Will you share your website link?

When Gardner said..'One should not take money for practicing thee Art '.He said it because at the time Britain in 1951 repealed the Witchcraft Act with what was known as The Fraudulent Mediums Act. The main way of telling if some one was fraudulent was that they Charged money for there services. Also he did this as a measure to protect his coveners from harassment, and possible criminal prosecution. Now as to the issue of charging for magickal or divinatory services..It depends..In lieu of cash i would take.donations to a favorite charity.or any Goods like candles.food .

Tangible things outside of Cash.. But if cash was the only thing i could take i wouldnt charge a set FEE , but suggest a donation amount.In the same vein, there are those who are cash strapped and poorer than others so yes sometimes i would do it for free. One shouldnt be penalized if there is a true need for Magickal or Divinatory services..And about getting Pagan clergy to be paid , alot will have to change. a move to a congregational form of structure and practice.. Instead of the smaller coven/grove dynamic. Plus it seems alot of our better off Pagans have money for all the things THEY want, but when its time to donate 5 bucks to the candle/wine fund they disappear. Its time people realize it takes money and dedication for people to effectively operate THEIR religious organization. Plus it seems to me ive seen pagans who drive up in old beaten up cars who after ritual donate 10 bucks to the candle fund and arent afraid to say keep the change.. As Pagans today its a matter of Priority.

Just curious-why is that so many " New Age, Pagan and Wiccan's etc. seem to find it necessary to
bestow a a quasi-"indian" name on themselves or claim some questionable degree of ancestry
and rampantly attempt to incorporate First Nations beliefs into there particular "message"? Is it meant
to denote authenticity or some level of enlightened spiritual insight ,or is it just that America and the
world have in their cyclic way rediscovered First Nations people again as they did in the late sixties and
into the seventies?
Also if this is an attempt to align themselves and validate their message then doesn't the issue of "fees"
become anathema as it certainly is to our spiritual leaders.
Historically and to this day it does not require " takes money" to "operate THEIR (our) religious
organization. Mainly I suppose because it is not an organization and the traditions span generations
without any attempt to accommodate current fad or fancy or personal interpretation to fit the audience.
Any argument that they are compatible sister belief systems falls on deaf ears across indigenous
communities and in fact there exists a growing awareness and movement to disclaim such associations
within these communities. You will find an increasing number of websites devoted to this very issue.
I think it has a greater credibility and "spirituality" to simply state–we like this aspect of your culture and
were going to expropriate it for our needs- rather than to claim affinity or kinship.
Among the Christian community I once had a friend who pastored a small non-denominational church
who absolutely refused to accept any compensation. He worked two jobs to support his family and
when the collection was taken ( which was meager) it went specifically for the upkeep of the rather
humble "church". In fact when it was passed he always made a point of saying to give what you could or
to take what you needed.
That is what I view as commitment and a deep seated belief. A spiritual mantle if you will.
The comparison to plumbers and tradesmen is hardly appropriate as they make no claims to spiritual
insight or abilities to counsel or render "spiritual advice", or perform any acts of divination.
First Nations people are not children of a lesser God and we require no updates or non indigenous
prophecies and I am confident in stating that generally across the board such are not well received.
No angel Moroni delivering golden tablets, no channeled adviser, no "enlightened master" to guide us.
A victim of the assimilation policy of boarding schools for indigenous children said it best " Our spirits
don't speak English" and we embrace that as an absolute truth. That would further imply that short of
some "charades" like game of pantomime none of the belief system could be shared with non speaking
and non indigenous people.
That in turn would make the possession or use of it and act of sacrilege and cultural grave robbing.
I always found it odd that an indigenous "entity" would only choose to "channel" through a non indigenous
person. Why do you suppose that is? I have yet to hear of such a claim by any of our spiritual leaders,
nor is there any historical reference made by any of them.

Ummm. . .not sure where the First Nations references were coming from, unless you were responding to two different posts, as I made no references to First Nations people or their Spirits. Perhaps notate who is being adressed in the future. . .so as to eliminate confusion.

Regarding the "plumber" metaphor, I disagree. People who have devoted six, seven or twenty years to the study and practice of witchcraft or other specific Pagan practices should be reimbursed for their teaching and counsel. Our religion cannot grow without a restructuring of an unstructured anarchic system. If things remain the way they are Paganism will be absorbed into the mainstream, the sacred teachings will be diluted beyond recognition and all will be for naught once more (for proof of this happening, simply look at what happened to Paganism during the Xtian invasion – a good book on this is "Things Fall Apart". . .can't remember the author's name right now tho). Every culture has had a priest caste, office or profession and there is no reason to denigrate this office in our modern days. No one can devote the amount of time to truly be considered a Priest or Oracle unless this is their only career pursuit. All others (including myself) are dabblers lest they live their entire lives devoted to the Gods and the study of Lore.

I do agree with you regarding the cultural appropriation (sp?) issue. It is a concern my spirituality has and shares with yours as well. As a Heathen (practitioner of Northern European folk belief) I see people grab-bagging parts of my peoples' tradition just as they do the First Nations'. I myself would never claim a kinship to the spirits of your folk, although my partner is a half-breed (25% Sioux and 25% Cherokee approx.), she and I both respect the Native Spirits enough to not think we could address them without knowing their language and being trained by an elder. We do leave offerings of tobacco and corn, but these are more respectful peace offerings than attempts to claim we know them and work with them. Good luck with your crusade my friend!

Now I'm confused as the only questions I asked that I see answered here are those confined primarily to the commerce issue. The core question that I will repeat ,as I apparently failed to adequately express myself is as follows:
Do New Age, Pagan and Wiccan philosophies "borrow" from First Nations beliefs, and if so why? My statements and questions are not intended as disrespectful or contemptuous of anyone's beliefs or their right to practice them, But that is a quid pro quid proposition and warrants reciprocity .And for those who aren't familiar with this issue it is a growing concern and irritant to First Nations people. I noticed that although this thread originated with verbal revelry re St. Patrick's Day it branched out into commentary relating to the issues of Paganism etc. If my insertion of questions and statements here is either uncomfortable, difficult to address or seriously off topic all that is required is a clear expression of that and I will return to my own ruminations and depart the thread. You express a concern that Paganism will be absorbed into the mainstream and the sacred teachings will be absorbed-if that is so then we share the same concerns for that is the fear and reality of first Nations people as at this very moment we see and live with it on a daily basis. I sincerely hope that this is never the case for either you or us-for any sacred way. They should remain honored, respected and above all else pristine. We have favored positions in regard to compensation and that is a part of the wonder of life, diversity, and I am more than happy to acknowledge your position and accept that what may work in one social/cultural setting will not in another and the right or wrong of it is germane to those settings.
Thank you for your time and response.

Sorry about that Pahchoka, I misunderstood, and the fault is entirely mine.

Now that I understand your question better, I will attempt to address it. While many Pagan traditions do not cherry-pick from First Nations beliefs, there are some, especially in the New Age "Starry Eyed Surprise" sects that do. I believe they do this out of ignorance to the irritation it causes amongst the First Nations, which is why more solidarity and respect should be pursued amongst the vast nebula of the Pagan community.

I don't believe those who appropriate in such ways mean any disrespect to your People or your Traditions. . .they are just simpletons who know not what they do. However this is no excuse, I would like to see the First Nations elders become more vocal about their Traditions and educate us pale-faces about the beliefs so that ignorance doesn't win the day.

I think that you are right in your reference to the cyclic nature of interest in the First Nations' practices. See, many folk of European descent are ridden with "white guilt". History books portray our civilization as evil and malignant, and in many ways it became so, especially when we ripped your honorable people from their homelands. What Heathenism teaches is that there is no need for "white guilt", but that we should devote ourselves to making up for lost time by giving respect where it is due and being humble in the presence of elders of other paths. The crimes committed by the white-man in the past were inspired by Christianity and the subsequent theology of "manifest destiny", thus if white folk excise the Christianity from themselves they have taken the first step to making recompense.

This White Guilt comes into play with the appropriation of other cultures. Many white folk make the intellectual foible of thinking that if they don't practice a "white" cultural tradition, then they somehow get to weasle out of their skin color and the wrongs that have been perpetrated by their ancestors. I say this is wrong. The only source of recompense is embracing one's heritage and seeking to right the wrongs with respect, not by wearing a medicine bag and calling oneself "Sitting Bear" and pretending that this makes one any less white.

My desire is to form friendships with members of the First Nations, not because I wish to appropriate, as I have no need for any tradition outside my own, but because I respect your people and your Spirits and I understand that it is your land that I live on and wish to pay my respects in the correct cultural manners.

Frith! (Old Norse for Friendship and Harmony)

Bjorn

Good words and well spoken. I don't ascribe to the concept of a generational white guilt-the past cannot be undone. What I do believe in is an individualized accountability. Everyone regardless of ethnicity is responsible for their actions, deeds, prejudices and the enabling and propagation of injustice. Individual guilt if you will. And for the sake of this discussion I will label an indifferent ,self serving , insulated government as an individual entity.There is a road to reconciliation but it will be a long an arduous path requiring effort on all sides.I am a vociferous advocate of cultural
integrity and I think that anyone who expects it to emanate from a geographic location such as Washington or an individual ( politician) is in for a rude awakening. It is a catch 22 situation for many reservations, where in an attempt to grab the means of economic improvement that casinos provide they must surrender sovereignty and continue attaching themselves to the governments teat. And it is proving itself to be increasingly difficult to be weaned from. As much as this country, the world, seems to love free trade agreements I would like to see all First Nations re establish sovereignty and enact free trade agreements among themselves and all indigenous peoples of the Americas in an attempt to be become self sufficient. I think that would entail sacrifice and suffering but we have a long history of that and the result would be invaluable.
Were that such was true " I understand that it is your land that I live on", for in fact we are little more now than card carrying registered visitors, a demographic . As I'm sure there must be others viewing this thread and wonder at the turn it has taken I'll cede the floor. You're a good man and I, we, appreciate that and the support. Stay strong.
To quote the Bard " the robbed who smiles steals something from the thief". Smiling is no longer enough.

Apologies if this is confusing; it's multiple musings in one reply window, lest I get more repetitive than I already am.

"Do New Age, Pagan and Wiccan philosophies "borrow" from First Nations beliefs, and if so why?"

Some of us are of mixed heritage, and are interested in all of our ancestors, not just the ones whose surnames we carry. I have heard arguments that it is offensive to Native Americans for anyone who is from a diluted bloodline to claim the affiliation or the lore. Being an Irish, Scots, English, Cherokee, and Tuscarora mutt, I personally don't care if it is. My ancestors may be considered traitors to their tribe by having bred outside of it, but if anyone thinks that any specific Native American gene pool has remained uncompromised from the time everybody went for a stroll across the ice from Siberia to Alaska, they're nuts. Such a thing isn't even desirable – it's called inbreeding. At what point does one dilute sufficiently to no longer feel related? Not my call for anyone but myself.

" "Our spirits don't speak English' and we embrace that as an absolute truth. That would further imply that short of
some "charades" like game of pantomime none of the belief system could be shared with non speaking
and non indigenous people"

Leaving aside the tendency of language to evolve and drift; you've never had a dream/meditation/etc of someone committing an action, without words? Never asked with your heart, "what do you want?" and gotten a taste in your mouth, or had a scent hit your nose?

"I always found it odd that an indigenous "entity" would only choose to "channel" through a non indigenous
person. Why do you suppose that is? I have yet to hear of such a claim by any of our spiritual leaders,
nor is there any historical reference made by any of them."

Would like a more detailed designation of "our spiritual leaders". Belief is not universal, North America is a big continent, and a mere thousand years is a long time.

My take on that hinges on the possibility of reincarnation, and the necessity of an available and willing listener to the ancestors who remain spirit. Who were they before this life? Is anyone in the modern day family line who is still considered indigenous actually paying attention to his ancestors? I have been given the explanation that no indigenous ancestor would communicate with or be reborn as an outsider, and if their biological family line died out (or were killed off), that's just their tough luck. I submit that most people's survival instinct (in a spirit, the wish to communicate and be remembered) is stronger than to allow themselves to disappear like that, if they felt they had something important to say or do. My experience is more that it's impossible to get them to shut up if they're onto something.

Snoozepossum- I personally take no offense with anyone claiming indigenous heritage-what is offensive is when
it is a lie or when they attempt to claim some special affiliation as the result of some trace amount or trot out the tired cliches of 'walking the red path", "walking two paths"etc etc as though it somehow elevates their status among acquaintances or bestows some special mysticism or insight., or attempt to translate that into some bogus ceremonies.Bottom line is for those who haven't walked the walked ,had first hand experience on the rez, in the culture or the background to speak from it is smoke and mirrors. It is the worst sort of cultural grave robbing and an act of complete disregard. I suppose by the line of reasoning you present that for the greater period of time prior to the "discovery" of America you mean to imply that it was a land of inbred savages. And following such an all encompassing philosophy then you have omitted your African origins. As I understand the genome project asserts that is where mankind originated. Do you claim that particular ethnicity on your resume?You will have a tough time promoting that theory or your subsequent proposition that there are no pure bloods since DNA is widely accepted as the evidence standard and neither I nor countless others I personally am acquainted with have any Euro DNA. You obviously come from a position of belief in reincarnation and somehow feel a need to defend that-your personal beliefs are just that-and it is irrelevant whether they resonate with me or if I were to think such believers to be nuts as you so eloquently phrased it. I think the context that "our spiritual leaders" was used in is obvious-but in the event it wasn't then I offer the following definition: Our spiritual leaders-those that are rooted in the traditional beliefs and cultures, those whose lineage isn't vague or questionable, those who serve their people in their community, those who have endured the abuses heaped upon their people and yet persevered and kept the teachings uncorrupted and intact without compiling a piece of this or a piece of that to in the end wind up with some truth or message that resembles a paint by number picture, those who haven't stolen some portion of a belief system to incorporate into their larger message and use it for profit and celebrity.And I believe that when all that is viewed as a whole it could well serve as the definition for integrity. A word it seems often bandied about but rarely understood. Maybe I am not as spiritually evolved as you for usually when I have a taste in my mouth a breath mint suffices and a scent usually only requires that I move upwind. Whatever you believe if it makes you a better person then kudos to you and carry on. If it is your wont to imbue a piece of paper , a fork or any other item with a special significance and construct a belief system around it then go for it. All that is requested is that those who do that and then incorporate First Nations teachings into it have the integrity to announce that it has been purloined rather than claim any special message or gift. I have often wondered as First Nations culture rises to some sort of ascendancy in popular opinion as it periodically does, and the numbers of those who claim to be indigenous increases, how we ever were defeated when our numbers were so great. If you practice Shinto it does not make you Japanese or denote a special insight and neither does the "practice" of First Nations ceremonies-that is the issue.

Meant to address this in my previous post and can only plead the onslaught of senility I suppose. The hypothetical scenario of an "entity" who may have passed on leaving no surviving blood line and subsequently having to communicate with a non indigenous person fails to adequately answer my question of why do these "channeled' indigenous entities only seem to do so through non indigenous people-as the hypothetical seems to presume there are no indigenous people extant. That they would have no option other than to establish contact with a stranger. Were we wiped out in one fell swoop or is there some sort of implied elitism here as if to say no self respecting spirit would consider using an indigenous person as their "voice"? That they come from a culture that once they've left they have no desire to communicate with? If this were I Love Lucy she would have some 'splaining to do don't you think?

Harry runs the lovely Alchemy Works. There, now you don't have to worry about self-promotion

Lol, thanks! That's why I didn't respond.

I believe that for the most part, you are mistaken about the group of people you are taking your complaint to. It is New Age folks who are into Michael Harner and drum circles and Sedona and all that stuff, not Pagans. We are more likely to be into Norse, ancient Egyptian, ancient Greek, or European folk entities. Even the expression you are using, "channelling," is a New Age concept, not a Pagan concept. I have never once heard a Pagan use that word or describe such an experience. The closest thing in Paganism would be folks who are "ridden" by their gods, and that has nothing to do with Native American beliefs whatsoever.

OTOH, I will say that I have had the honor of Datura speaking to me in dreams and in visions, and this is a datura that is native to this area (D. stramonium var. inermis) and that apparently at one time was worked with by the native people who once lived near here. I have not one speck of Indian blood, and my family didn't even come to North America until 1924. What am I supposed to do, in your opinion? Tell this spirit to go screw itself because someone else already owns the rights to communicating with it? I'm not going to. Maybe it spoke to me because I had been quietly growing it for years and years. I was there and I was listening. Maybe the reason why it is communicating with me is because not many of its "own" people are listening. I don't say this about people claiming some Native American god is talking to them directly. I don't know about them. But I know about me. I'm not claiming any Indian rights. Don't put everyone in the same boat.

I absolutely understand being angry about your culture being ripped off. I used to get furious when people would blithely co-opt Kabbalah (I am Jewish) and say things like it came from Egypt or was from Lemuria or Atlantis or some crap, and claim to be experts in it even though they don't even know the Hebrew alphabet, much less anything about Judaism, which created it. Then I realized that there is nothing that any ignorant person can do to harm Kabbalah. All the Kabbalah Centres in the world and all the red strings and the bottles of Torah Water and all the other money-making opportunities that people engage in to profit off Kabbalah do not take one speck away from the power of real Kabbalah in the hands of people who really know it. I do not think there is anything any ignorant person can do to harm native religions either. Christians began claiming Kabbalah as their own in 15th century, when Jews were being hounded from one principality to another and being murdered and tortured for being Jews, but Kabbalah lived and strengthened anyhow because the truth remained alive in the real practice. So what if there are plastic shamans? They can't take anything from you because they have no idea what they are talking about.

Harry Roth________ I appreciate the spirited defense of your beliefs and realize that the Jewish Nation is yet another in a long line of abused and suppressed people. However if you will look at my original post, and I believe also the second one, it should be apparent that I had framed them in the context of a question, not an
accusation. And whether they were "true" Pagans or Wiccans I have heard self proclaimed practitioners make
such statements-hence the format of my post. If it is not a part of these belief systems then I think that rather than a co-mingling Pagans and Wiccans should strive to distance themselves and if nothing else minimally
verbalize the distance and the differences. You ask "what am I supposed to do in your opinion?" And having asked I assume it is a sincere question-in that vein I will repeat what I said to snoozepossum- if what you believe in is sincere and works for you then by all means practice it with INTEGRITY. And if done so there would be no need to "borrow" from another. In your citing of M. Harner and the community of outpatients at Sedona who swoon at his every word and receive certificates of graduation from vision quest 101 you validate every concern
the First Nations community has and I thank you for that. I believe it was Thomas Mann who said " to tolerate an evil is a crime" and this sort of thing is exactly that. Plastic shamans do Indeed take something every time they introduce and dupe yet another unknowing individual into their version of indigenous beliefs as it seems that a lie all to often in this day and age and the assumed expertise of someone with a website is validation enough.
Once indoctrinated these new messengers perpetuate the lie until the line between fact and fiction becomes
increasingly hard to discern. Many First Nations ceremonies are not open to the public, especially among Southwestern tribes, in view of that and the continuing assimilation and destruction of culture, the loss of language and tradition and the passing of elders how difficult does it then become to keep the integrity of
the beliefs intact? Or do you suggest that we should merely say they can go "screw themselves.? That is not in us or a part of the makeup of any true believer regardless of what they believe. You say you understand our anger and cite similar emotions you have experienced -then I say we have a common ground and no dispute
We are the progeny of those who suffered the first and subsequent waves of assault. We survive as testament to the sacrifices they made and the life's they lost to insure our survival and the survival of our beliefs-that is a debt to be honored and never forgotten. And that means payment of that debt and defense of what they gave us without respite or flagging spirit. If toes are stepped on, feelings are hurt, shams and liars are exposed so be it. If it means going on a forum and asking about another's beliefs so be it. It has been estimated that prior to the conquest there were 145,000,000 indigenous peoples in all of the Americas.That is a figure in dispute as some claim it may have been as high as 300,000,000-today the current census figure shows there are around 4,000,000 presently in the US with an estimated extermination of over 90% of the indigenous population of the Americas . A staggering number far in excess of any other genocidal event in the worlds history. In view of these figures would you say that there is no harm an " ignorant person (or persons) " can do to "native religions?" I am for all intents and purposes an uneducated person, my salvation, if I may call it that is to have a curious nature and so I ask and discuss. And any religion, philosophy or belief system should surely be able to withstand that and the light of day. I am and will remain an unrepentant critic of the usurpers and those who would attempt to wrap themselves in the bones of our ancestors. I did not to the best of my understanding malign either your people or your beliefs- I inquired. You have elucidated your position and you have my gratitude for that. if however you were a New Ager then I would readily, proudly admit that ,Yup I said that and it's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Harry Roth–an addendum, ours are predominantly oral traditions, passed down through generations-that makes our source material intangible, no written codex or manuscript to point too. That increases the difficulty of insuring it's purity. Granted there are a plethora of books claiming to contain all this-the net is rampant with them. All it requires though is a brief search of the source material and author and invariably they become suspect.

Well, thanks for acknowledging I can have some integrity.:)

I understand now why you originally objected so strongly to people being paid for spiritual services. At first it seemed like a non sequitur to me. But now I see it is because the people who are doing spiritual work for pay in your neck of the woods are plastic shamans. But in our neck of the woods, people who do spiritual work for pay are a whole nother bag. First of all, they would characterize themselves as witches, sorcerers, or rootworkers, not shamans. I myself have done magical work for pay and don't see any wrong in it. I know how to do it, and other people don't or don't want to take the time to learn or don't think they can learn, and they have the money, so it's a match made in heaven. I do European/Jewish style magic with talismans and amulets I make. I consider this to be a skill like any other, like when I used to do writing for pay. I know people who do ceremonial magic, European-style witchcraft, or Hoodoo rootwork for pay, and I respect them and their knowledge and their caring for the people they work with. I have not run across these plastic shamans personally, but I know they are out there, because I have read about them.

I do see a distinction between New Agers on the one hand and Pagans and Wiccans on the other. Pagans and Wiccans, as far as I know, are not particularly focused on Native American beliefs and usually confine their cultural vacuuming to cultures that are no longer alive or ones they belong to, like European folk stuff. I think that is perfectly fine and see that as completely separate from New Agers or whatever doing drum circles. I don't know–maybe other people have had different experiences than I have on that score, but I just have not run into that type much in Pagan and Wiccan circles. In fact, the closest I have run across like that was two years ago, when someone wanted to have a sweat lodge at a pagan community ritual I was considering attending. The person who was organizing it made it clear that it was not supposed to be in any way like a real sweat lodge. It was just supposed to be a way for people to prepare for the community ritual later, a purification thing. It didn't attract enough interest and was canceled. I did feel uneasy about that and opted out, but I did do it in a chicken-shit way, saying I did not like sweating. That is the most co-opted Indian thing I have seen personally.

I'll repeat that even with the almost complete decimation of the native people of North (and South) America, these cultures have shown their enormous strength in surviving anyhow. To me, that says that these bogus shamans can't really harm the spirituality they supposedly represent. I guess I can see that if there is a lot of dilution of Native American blood, then you can have totally white people saying they are Indians and claiming to pass on this cultural knowledge, esp. if it is oral. That would be a problem, and I don't know how I would handle it. It would probably make me mad. I think it's a good idea to keep cultural treasures secret if there are people like this around. At the same time, I am glad that I was able to find all sorts of anthropological writing about how various tribes in CA and in the Northeast worked with datura a hundred years or more ago. I know that the people who talked to those anthropologists probably held info back and some of them straight-out lied, but that's okay. I have to get any little scraps of helpful hints I can get. I am not ever going to turn around and make like I am recreating some native ritual or prayer or whateverit. That would be wrong.

Harry Roth–appreciate the information and insights and will squirrel them away in whatever mental data banks I have remaining. Regardless of the manner you chose to forgo the sweat lodge to me it is the motivation that is important and in my opinion you did the right thing. Too often the allure of such events
as sweat lodge ceremonies are akin to and marketed as though it were a trip to to Disney World or the local carnival. And I not only acknowledge that you are capable of having integrity but that you do in fact possess that quality. Success in your endeavors.

The condition of your peoples is most surely a sad one my friend. My personal belief is that our nation should return sovereignty to your folk and incorporate your Tribal Councils into the governmental system (IE House, Senate, Congress, Tribal Council. . .makes sense to me) and grant them equal if not greater share of power in the political process as was originally promised in many of the broken treaties between your people and the European invaders. I am sure this is nothing more than wishful thinking. . .but I see it in my dreams.

There is a stretch of land here in Colorado, between Monument and Castle Rock, on I-25 that brings me to tears at times when I drive it to and from work. This beautiful swatch of land is dotted with massive mesas that seem to have been deliberately carved flat on top, as if some ancient and forgotten God smoothed the top for a seat. In the In-Between Times (dawn and dusk) I can sometimes see hunting parties riding across those wind-blown plains, or tribes gathering atop those mesas to greet the sun. These are not "visions" or channeled information. . .just a deep spiritual sorrow for the beauty that was lost and destroyed. If there is any way my small voice could help right the wrongs, please let me know.

Frith.

Maruawe Bjorn——I know the areas you speak of and they do have a voice as do Mesa Verde, Chaco Canyon, Tuzigoot and countless others. There was a time when it was all ours and we rode freely when and where we wanted. I honestly believe there was a moment in time when the Nations would have been receptive to sharing, Instead it was wrenched away , without consent. An integral part of us if you will, amputated without the benefit of anesthesia or compassion and we have never been the same. I think it debatable now if we ever will be. And that is the great fear, that what we have lost is not enough, and what remains, meager as it may be is coveted as well. When the purity of the language is ours no more, when the purity of the culture is desecrated and is no more then we will be no more as well. The history of all conquerors reads the same, destruction of the culture, spiritual beliefs and language and then a generational assimilation. There was even a government sponsored program of "family planning" initiated by Bush senior in the seventies to sterilize indigenous women without their knowledge or consent. It was exposed by Senator Abourezk who held public congressional hearings. It is an absolute indisputable fact that can be found in congressional and GAO records. An estimated 40% percent of indigenous women who went to IHS facilities for what ever reason were subjected to this. I try diligently every day not to carry anger or malice in my heart and I ask Creator to assist me in that, and I believe for the most part I succeed. It would be easier if all this would stop and yet it seems there is to be no surcease of sorrow. The heart speaks a language of its own and just as it only has so many beats likewise can it only endure so many wounds until it becomes so damaged and bruised it can find no utterance. Our hearts still speak, all that remains is for a nation, a people, a world to hear it. Your heart speaks as well Bjorn Odinsson, and it speaks a language of equality, compassion, respect and justice, which in the final analysis is why such an instrument of love and conscience were given us. Our deeds and words are like the ripples in a pond emanating from a cast stone, and it is not always given to us to know or understand their impact or the end of their journey, sometimes they return to us with unwanted consequence. We have the choice of what we burn, be it bridges, bitter roots or sweet sage and we should choose wisely for it is descriptive of who we are and will have a lasting effect. Always,always let your choice be sweet sage my friend and the returning consequence of your words will be rewarding, devoid of shame and a credit to who you are. Earlier I was out drumming with a small group of friends and as the night progressed I looked around and thought here we sit as others have sat before us for millenium and I wonder if they recognize us with our ragtag collection of battered hats, worn levi's and weathered countenance? And as though in response a great pride welled up in me and I knew that they surely did and that we are the descendants of nothing less than a race of giants that once trod the length and breadth of this land-that not only are we from the earth but in a manner difficult to explain we are the earth.
We sprang from her womb and she knows us each by name as every mother does her children and if all that
is left for us is to return to her then it will be a homecoming. We haven't failed in our duties as protectors of our mother through sloth or indolence, but rather through the ongoing relentless crush of an overwhelmingly unstoppable adversary and she knows and understands.But as they say "it ain't over till the fat lady sings."

1. Why is it OK for a "Native" to not alow a mixed or white access to it's culture but Asatru folks get called racist for holding strong to there Nothern European ancestors?

" personally refuse to celebrate St. Paddy's day beyond drinking a little extra with my friends. I think that ultimately the American holiday has become somewhat of an insult to Irish ancestry. A large part of my heritage is Irish on my mother's side, so the caricatures of green-beads, green beer, leprechauns corned beef and cabbage (which was actually not originally an "Irish delicacy", but was rather adopted after the immigration due to the Potatoe Famine since the meat and cabbage was cheap) insulting."

I agree and I feel the same whay Americans have damaged Mardi Gras. Go to the oter parts of New Orleans to see the real thing.

"Why is it OK for a "Native" to not alow a mixed or white access to it's culture but Asatru folks get called racist for holding strong to there Nothern European ancestors?"

Because northern Europeans are not oppressed and dispossessed of their hereditary lands or language. An oppressed group facing extinction can use whatever it takes to preserve their integrity, IMO, and if that means keeping outsiders out, so be it.

Asatru gets accused of racism because white suprematists gravitate to it. I just had a run-in with people claiming this religon who were enormously and abusively antisemitic.

Oh Gods. . .I am sorry you ran into those types Harry, we as a community try to discourage them (sometimes at the detriment to ourselves), and most Heathens that I know proudly display the "Heathens Against Hate" banner on their websites.

RE "not allowing others in", many Asatruar I have run into voice this complaint and fear. . .that there is somehow an invasion of Asatru by whatever the undesirable ethnicity of the month may be. I have yet to see this so called "invasion". I mean come on, how many African Americans do you know that are just dying to become part of a tradition that worships battle-axe wielding white gods (forgive the generalization RE the Shining Ones)? Asatru is a very ethnocentric faith, which is not wrong, so long as the ethnocentrism does not spiral out of control and into racism. Because it is focused on the Northern European practices, it tends to be predominately peopled by those of Northern or Western European descent.

Lol I think that the most common culprit of cultural appropriation is white people. . .not minorities. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a white boy sporting dreadlocks or wearing faux eagle feathers in their hair. . .haven't seen many (read: ANY) minorities sporting Thor's Hammer or having Runes tattooed onto their skin though.

All in all I think the complaint that Asatruar give about being forced to accept those of non-white descent into their faith is silly and ultimately a non-issue. Even if non-European folk were flocking to Asatru in droves it would be a non-issue so long as they left their culture of origin behind and truly were faithful to the Nordic culture and lore. Odhinn himself has visited me in the guise of a African American homeless man begging for change (the Old Man has a sense of humor as I was straying towards racism in my beliefs at the time). I handed the God-Incognito a dollar and he walked away, when he turned the corner two crows started a ruckus behind me, as if laughing at me! I knew then who I had donated to, and took the lesson to heart.

I believe ancestry means a lot, but the folkway is literally that. . .a *way* to the Gods. Northern folk seem to be drawn by-and-large to it in dizzying majority, but if I find that my ancestors' path is walked by an "outsider" I would judge them according to their deeds, not their color. We are our deeds as the Norse proverb goes, and as the Havamal says: Cattle die, men die, all things must die, but one thing that will never perish is a man's good name.

Yes, Mardi Gras is another sad de-evolution of tradition. I got to attend a Mardi Gras celebration while in Baton Rouge. . .much better than New Orleans from what I have heard.

For what usef to be a RACIST form of Asatru represented in the United States in early years, all one has to do is look back to the time of the Asatru Free Assembly.. Now defunct because of its racist over tonesThe Asatruar movement has toned itself down alot in this regard.. Gicing way to organizations like Ring of Troth, and AVA ..American Vineland Association, a primarily Folkish Form of Asatru. And the Theodish and Vanatru offshoots

Asatru Free Assembly fell into oblivion and Asatru Folk Assembly came out of the ashes. American Vinland Association, as far as I know, is *not* Folkish. Folkish or Volkisch refers to those in Heathenism who put great import on ancestry and ethnicity. I fall somewhere between Folkish and Universalist philosophies. I consider myself "Tribalist" in that I don't believe that one necessarily has to be of Northern European descent, but that they should fully integrate into the tribe, swear kinship and reprogram themselves into the Northern European Folk-Consciousness. Much like the tales from the "Wild West", where white-skinned, blue eyed people were found living with the First Nations tribes, when offered the chance to return to life amongst their "own kind" these adopted tribesfolk rejected this chance for re-entry into the "white world" because they had become part of another world altogether.

It goes back to what I said about deeds. Humans begin with what they are born as, and modify from there according to their actions and directions they take in life. If someone of differing heritage feels drawn by the Gods to my Kindred, I would not turn them away, I would quiz them, as I would any perspective member, to get an idea of how deeply they had researched, and how much they understood so far. I would explain what it means to be "True to Aesir", in that it is an insular tradition that rarely seeks outside the confines of the folkway for spiritual guidance. If they understood what tasks lay before them, and accepted, then I would readily accept them into my tribe.

Will reply to this point by point, in order to attempt to make some sense of it. Afraid it's fairly longwinded; parts to follow as replies.

“I suppose by the line of reasoning you present that for the greater period of time prior to the "discovery" of America you mean to imply that it was a land of inbred savages. “
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S: Okay, I can’t even begin to figure out how that was derived. Re-read what I wrote:
‘ . . . .but if anyone thinks that any specific Native American gene pool has remained uncompromised from the time everybody went for a stroll across the ice from Siberia to Alaska, they're nuts. Such a thing isn't even desirable – it's called inbreeding.’
The only way I can see your statement being applicable is if you think that the Paleolithic people who migrated here via the Bering Strait (or from wherever, if you choose to disallow the Bering Strait theory) all came as one family, extended family, or clan/tribal unit, all at one time, and that all of North, Central, and South America were peopled from that one group. I wasn’t there, but it doesn’t take much to figure out that the odds of this being the case are way past being seriously unlikely.
Also seriously unlikely (read damned nigh impossible) are the odds that the various aforementioned groups migrated to this land mass, and never split up, interbred, or participated in any sort of fosterage/adoption, over a period of time that falls into a 10,000-years-or-more span.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“And following such an all encompassing philosophy then you have omitted your African origins. As I understand the genome project asserts that is where mankind originated. Do you claim that particular ethnicity on your resume?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S: Not in the on-paper, last-300-years-account version, but I have met very few people (myself included) who can look at “Lucy” and not feel something sit up, back close to their hindbrain. We might all be better off if that whole “Family of Man” thing did catch on a bit more. I do, however, play a djembe, and have encountered a few people (all of them whiteys) who had a gripe about that too. If some such did try to communicate with me, I wouldn’t be tacky enough to tell him “you shouldn’t be talking to a cracker; go find someone else!”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You will have a tough time promoting that theory or your subsequent proposition that there are no pure bloods since DNA is widely accepted as the evidence standard and neither I nor countless others I personally am acquainted with have any Euro DNA.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S: Are you asserting that Native Americans do not have any common DNA traits with other humans? Unless you’ve had DNA mapping done (expensive, that), might not want to poke around in the woodpile too much.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“You obviously come from a position of belief in reincarnation and somehow feel a need to defend that-your personal beliefs are just that-and it is irrelevant whether they resonate with me or if I were to think such believers to be nuts as you so eloquently phrased it.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S: Not seeing the “need to defend” part there. Again, re-read the text. The “nuts” bit has nothing to do with acceptance of reincarnation, it has to do with the idea that no groups would intermingle over several thousand years in the same area. Relevance is, as in the abovementioned Bering Strait Theory, per the basis of viewpoint: if you allow for the possibility of reincarnation, then the premise that a non-Native American might be answering to an association from past life, and vice versa, is a relevant variable. If you don’t believe in reincarnation, it’s pointless to expect you to consider that variable. I wrote that as a means of presenting my viewpoints (back when I thought I was answering a curious question), while establishing that I do not expect anyone else to agree with them, in part or whole.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“ I think the context that "our spiritual leaders" was used in is obvious-but in the event it wasn't then I offer the following definition . . . .”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S: Clarify: by “more detailed designation” of “our spiritual leaders”, I was asking for what specific leaders you refer to, as in what tribe, and what geographical area. As I stated before, belief is not universal, and North America is a big continent. Until I read some of your other statements, I wouldn’t’ve supposed you’d attempt to say that all NA tribes follow a single continental religious leadership, and were all in agreement. Given conversations I’ve had with members of Cherokee (Eastern and Western band), Catawba, Seminole, Shawnee, Muscogee, Pima, Seneca, Oneida, Apache, and Kiowa tribes (who spoke for no one but themselves), such a condition doesn’t exist, and never has. And there is a wide range of belief and outlook among that small sample of all the varied tribal groups and branches that exist.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Maybe I am not as spiritually evolved as you for usually when I have a taste in my mouth a breath mint suffices and a scent usually only requires that I move upwind.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S: Gee, how sad that your evolutionary development has made you dislike taste and smell so completely. Eating and breathing must be highly irritating.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The hypothetical scenario of an "entity" who may have passed on leaving no surviving blood line and subsequently having to communicate with a non indigenous person fails to adequately answer my question of why do these "channeled' indigenous entities only seem to do so through non indigenous people-as the hypothetical seems to presume there are no indigenous people extant. That they would have no option other than to establish contact with a stranger. Were we wiped out in one fell swoop or is there some sort of implied elitism here as if to say no self respecting spirit would consider using an indigenous person as their "voice"? That they come from a culture that once they've left they have no desire to communicate with? If this were I Love Lucy she would have some 'splaining to do don't you think?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S: Maybe – perhaps she can “splain” to my friend’s grandmother why her full-blood grandson told her he “doesn’t care about that shit” when she offered to cover his lessons in Cherokee syllabry. Elitism? Sure is – he’s too elitist to “sit around with some old man and listen to a bunch of dumb tapes”. If I were his many-times great grandparents, I wouldn’t waste my words or energy on his cocky, unappreciative ass either.
As a matter of fact, some family groups and clans were wiped out in one fell swoop, by violence (red and white), smallpox and other diseases (introduced and otherwise), and natural disasters.
I’ve encountered spirits that seemed to want someone to pay attention to them, and some who wanted to be left completely alone, and some who would violently object to one person’s presence and accept another’s, with no reasons anyone could discern. I figure my obligation is to treat whoever with politeness and do what I can to make them happy if possible. I’ll echo what Harry wrote earlier – if a spirit who sees fit to interact with me, he evidently has more important things on his mind than my pedigree, and I’d be rude to not give him a fair shake.

Will never understand the idea of asking for an explanatory answer, when all one really wants is an echo.

Snoozepossum pt1–Well if I may I think I will begin with a quote from you-I feel sorry for anyone who only has a mental sword to work with, and no other tools- Leaving aside the tendency of language to evolve and drift I'll make a real attempt to stay focused here. With your friends grandmothers grandson refusing to learn the language I think that speaks directly to the devaluing of culture through a generational assimilation, thank you for illustrating my point. And in the end it would appear to me that it is entirely his choice.Personally I think it a stretch to label either as elitist, but then so much of this seems to be semantics doesn't it? Would it be elitist if for instance your parents wanted to tell you your family history? Or say your father were a mechanic, would it be elitist for him to want to pass that on to you? And if you wanted no part of it would that in turn make you elitist? I quite like both eating and the benefits of an olfactory capacity and thank you for the concern you have expressed as to what you have mistakenly (for I surely wouldn't label it a need on your part to enroll in anger management) interpreted as some evolutionary decline I have experienced. No doubt a by product of my indigenous inbreeding. Just as a momentary aside here-do you speak any of the tribal languages you claim ancestry with? Have you any experience in rez life? Do you practice or have you attempted to incorporate any First Nations beliefs or ceremonies into what you believe? I only ask out of curiosity as it seems that a sore spot has been touched. And I see by an out of context juxtapositioning of what I said you have linked my statement of your nuts quote to reincarnation,and so I would ask that you return to your original post, read IT anew and unless you find you have linked them yourself it hardly follows that I have.If at this point you are seeking to redefine your interbreeding theory as to mean First nations people among themselves i.e. other tribes, that is not only extremely thin but also very transparent. DNA testing is available to anyone who wants to verify ancestry today for less than $200,is extremely accurate and is a great tool to expose or shut up the wannabes.The mere mention of it will suffice to send them scurrying away or into an defensive tirade most often.There are differences among individual tribes as to creation stories, legends and so forth-but even a cursory examination reveals that it is do in large part to language differences and there exists so many common threads woven among them that there is an obvious universality.Back to the interbreeding and your- groups will intermingle over thousands of years in the same area- what other groups were you referring to other that indigenous groups? Who else was here before the invasion? That to me is like saying that if a Brit and an American reproduced the offspring would be something other than Caucasian.

Snoozepossum pt2 Another outlandish stretch-how do you even arrive at a point where you think asking whether or not I believe indigenous people have any common DNA traits with humans is either a salient
question or even an intelligent one? I'm really curious, how did you come up with this? Was
this the result of some process of "critical" thinking or did it just sound good to you? Lets
see now-you've had conversations with representatives of 11 varied tribes by your count-well
that certainly qualifies you as something of authority I'd say-and that doesn't include the
books you've read either does it? Tell the truth now, you do like to make a point of your
"Indian" heritage to those who find it attractive don't you? And I'll bet you even have incorporated
differing concepts of traditional beliefs and ceremonies into your particular practices haven't
you? I would suggest that you be careful of which woodpile you poke around in as half of my full
blooded ancestry is Kiowa and is readily traceable back to the Staked Plains area. It may just be
possible that even without the conversations with friends and the wealth of knowledge books provide
I have a tad more insight into this than you do.I've encountered some good spirited people here who
were not only responsive and polite-people like Bjorn and Harry- but believers who have such a faith
and devotion to their beliefs as to be open minded and willing to discuss them candidly without little
petty asides and what they think will pass as sarcastic repartee. I felt when I read your initial reply
that possibly you were one of the growing number of internetphiles that always wants to personalize
and reduce a discussion to ad hominem exchanges-that being the case I took the time to look at your
other replies and thought that such was the case and rightly or wrongly that colors my responses to
you. If your character is such that you must attack, attack your own, for all you need do is look around
at the present condition of things and you will find you have ample cause to do so. All the blogging and
posting when compiled becomes biographical in nature, read the book you are writing and determine if it
is a read worth recommending to another. If you would like to continue this conversation I'm up for it
but not in this present vein of Pee Wee's Playhouse on steroids. And to those others on this site that I
am a guest on I would apologize to you all for any disruptions this sideshow may have caused and assure
you that I mean no disrespect to any of you.

One small point here-indigenous occupancy in the Americas is now being estimated at closer to 30,000 years rather than 10,000 and there seems to be a growing school of thought among "scholars' that it could even be in excess of that.

That's okay. I've heard worse, believe me.:)