“I am struggling with the Frosts. Struggling because it would be too easy to do as others have which is to demonize them or relegate them to the “sweet old couple.” They are something far more varied than either of these. Some people want to sweep them under a rug, but I do not think they should be ignored. Why? We need to figure out our theolog(ies). We need to know where we stand on sex. Many of us would still rather just suppress it like the overculture teaches us, because abuse may happen otherwise, or we may need to deal with our own demons. I say that abuse happens because of the suppression. Our demons grow stronger the more we constrict around our fears. Abuse happens when we don’t deal with our own sexuality, and we don’t teach our children about their own. And abuse sometimes just happens … If sex is sacred, we need to figure out how that translates and is reflected in our own lives, and in how we pass on that teaching.  And this is why, Gavin and Yvonne, as two people who have taught many others, I wish you would explain. Or I wish you would retract. Or I wish you would apologize. We could use discerning words from you instead of simply a shut down or blustering defense, or the insistence that those who disagree with you are “plastic”.”

She closes with some questions for the Frosts to answer:

“What do you really think, today, about the sexual education of children? Is sex between adolescents with adults really the best way they should learn these mysteries? How did you teach your own daughter to appreciate the powers of sex, love, and Nature?”

And some questions for her readers:

“What do you think about your own relationship to sex? To magic? To life force? To our process? To mistakes? To feet of clay? To your own regrets? To the sacred? To teaching our children?”

The sexual politics, and controversies, of the Frosts is a topic I’ve covered more than once here on this blog. I applaud Thorn for bravely stepping forward to process her own participation and feelings regarding these issues. I agree with the sentiment that we need to have an ongoing and constructive dialog concerning sex in our wider community, to actively engage with tough issues instead of ignoring them or allowing certain individuals to frame the entire moral question. I urge my readers to go through all three of her essays, and to answer her questions at her blog. Then, if you’d like, feel free to answer them, and continue the conversation, here, too. You should also keep an eye on Thorn’s podcast page, where audio and video from the panel in question will soon be posted.

“Any initiatory sex should be with a “stranger” — an initiated Witch of the coven [that] the neophyte plans to join. . . . The underlying tradition here is sometimes overlooked. If the Craft means enough to you that you are willing to abide by its tenets then abide by them! If you cannot transcend your cultural brainwashing and accept the assignment to have sex one time with an assigned partner, in accordance with centuries of Craft tradition, the Craft can’t mean that much to you. Here’s the door. Don’t call yourself a Witch.”

This prompts Hecate to make the following disclaimer regarding the Frosts:

This is just wrong. And I need to point out the wrongness so that any young or impressionable people new to Wicca, who may stumble upon the Frosts’ work, don’t believe what the Frosts say about initiation and sex.

After the last major storm over their sexual politics, you have to wonder what the Frosts are playing at. Are they, as some defenders have asserted, being shocking on purpose in order to stir the cauldron? Creating controversy to boost sales? Or are they, as their most vocal critics say, sick people with a warped moral compass. Personally, I think the Frosts started out by wanting to trigger debate and controversy but have begun to believe their own hype over the years. After all, there’s no such thing as bad press right? Needless to say, I haven’t run into a Witch or Wiccan group, traditonal or eclectic, who demanded sexual congress with a “stranger” for an initiatory process. Have you?

I think it is fair to say that no sane person advocates or encourages pedophilia. While our culture has become ever more permissive to a variety of once taboo subjects, the sanctity of children has (for the most part) remained non-negotiable. So it is always a serious matter when accusations of not only promoting, but actively participating in the abuse of children are raised. In this most recent eruption within the Pagan/Heathen community I believe that it is fair to say that more heat than light has been generated, and that the protection of children within our community has become an almost abstract point as emotions have risen and rival camps formed.

Do Gavin and Yvonne Frost promote pedophilia and child abuse in their literature? It has been an issue that has plagued the Pagan community since the book in question was first published in 1972. In the eighties the Frosts were “put on trial” by Carl and Sandra Weschcke (who run Llewellyn publications) for their controversial “initiation” chapter. Isaac Bonewits and Oberon Zell acted as the defense team, while Herman Slater and Lady Sheba were the prosecutors. The Frosts were found “guilty”, though I have no idea what the sentence was, or if any real ramifications emerged from that trial (they even attended a Llewellyn-run event after the trial). It is notable that this “trial” was done internally within the community and that no-one considered contacting the law on the matter. But according to Ian Corrigan, the book was mostly seen as nonsense and not taken seriously by many in the community.

“When this book came out in the early 70s, it was considered abject nonsense by the few folks who had any actual knowledge of Wicca in those days. The Frosts came out of nowhere, appropriating the term ‘Wicca’ for their own version of what religious witchcraft might be. Their synthesis bore almost no resemblance to the traditions of Wicca, either in ritual or theology, and certainly not in the grotesque suggestions about the sexual upbringing of children. It was a different age in those days, as ‘swinging’ emerged as a lifestyle and many folks hoped for a real revolution in sexual mores – too bad the Frosts chose to add their wacky ideas to something that they chose to call ‘Wicca’. This book was an embarrasment in 1972, and it’s an embarrasment now. It should be ignored by anyone interested in learning witchcraft or wicca.”

The Frosts have been attacked for so many years on this subject (with no legal ramifications), that they see the controversy as a selling point.

“An old cliche points out that all advertising is good advertising. The most recent spike on the sales graph of The Witch’s Bible has once again proven the accuracy of the cliche. Our thanks, then, to people who attack any of our published works!”

Though, despite their claims of being impervious to criticism, they did add a disclaimer to the chapter in the most recent (1999) edition.

“No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen.”

But for some (including A.J. Drew) such measures are too little, and too late. We also live in an age where child predation, abuse, and molestation are an ever-present issue with shows like “To Catch a Predator” and online groups like Perverted Justice encouraging an almost vigilante mindset. The law and government-supported social services are often painted as ineffectual at catching predators or protecting children, and in this atmosphere it is little wonder that self-appointed Pagan activists would go for the most apparent target, the Frosts and their chapter on child-initiation.

But has any of this helped protect Pagan children, or done anything to isolate the Frosts if they are indeed as guilty as Drew claims? Pagan academic Christopher Chase voices the skepticism some feel at this recent “De-Frosting” campaign.

“I do not see how any good can come from this “witch war.” I don’t know of anyone who has actually been harmed by their teachings, or anyone who would be rescued or helped if those teachings disappeared. The magickal burning of someone in effigy seems like such an extreme tactic, perhaps surpassed only by attempting to involve Charles Colson in this matter. Having kept up with Mr. Colson and his writings, I can say that no good for Pagan communities can come from drawing Mr. Colson’s attention. That seems tantamount to an unacceptable act of political and cultural brinksmanship.”

If A.J. Drew’s methods are counter-productive, what should the Pagan community do with literature they feel promotes pedophilia, and what should the community do about persons they feel endanger children within their community? Here are some suggestions.

Know what the Federal and State laws dictate for each situation, and if you feel a piece of writing or a person(s) have violated them, do not hesitate to report it to the appropriate authorities that are going to do something, not to friends or associates who have no power over the situation. To know what various State laws are concerning child welfare, you can search from this governmental web site. You can read a run-down of all applicable Federal laws as well. More specifically, Federal Public Law No: 108-21 stipulates that there is no statute of limitations for the sexual or physical abuse of a child. So if there is indeed proof of abuse, no matter how long ago, it should still be reported.

If the person(s) or literature doesn’t break any applicable laws (or if you have no proof that they have done so), but you feel their writings/person(s) are dangerous to the community, voice your concerns but avoid defamation. In the case of public figures any form of “actual malice” should be avoided. You can read more about libel law, here. An article discussing the emerging field of online libel can be found, here.

When promoting your concerns to the community, avoid demonizing those unconvinced by your claims, those reserving judgment, and those who criticize y
our methods. The logical fallacy of “guilt by association” should be avoided (I believe Person A. supports pedophilia, Person B. criticized my methods, therefore Person B. supports pedophilia).

In a final note, I think a pan-Pagan effort to deal with predators is needed. Sometimes those involved in a subculture can be hesitant to speak against fellow members or to seek help outside the community. Drew’s methods should be a wake-up call to the fact that a vacuum has existed in our inter-connected communities and that we should work towards forming an effective and accountable place for victims and those worried about possible predators to turn. Educational campaigns can be put in place, and national and local groups can be networked in a responsible way to avoid gossip, misinformation, and vigilantism. We can make our community a safer place, but only by working together in a calm and rational manner. I hope those of you who read my blog and are involved in national groups or hold leadership positions in local communities take this to heart and work toward building a safer community.

When Wiccan author and event organizer A.J. Drew announced a couple months ago that he planned to “sacrifice” an effigy of Church and School of Wicca founders Gavin and Yvonne Frost, few could have predicted the level of controversy and fallout that would occur from it. While trying to combat the spread of pedophilia and abuse is a noble thing, it seems Drew’s tactics concerning the Frosts and their literature have polarized the community, burned a few bridges, and created a situation where former colleagues of Drew’s have abandoned him (and then been savaged as supporters of the Frosts).

“How many more will befriend these monsters? How many more will defend, befriend, and go out of their way to harm others to protect the Frosts? Maybe we should all ask everyone we know do you support the Frosts? Are you aware of what they wrote? Do you support the North American Man Boy Love Association? Are you aware of what they wrote?” – A.J. Drew

Drew’s “International Real Witches Ball” has had every guest speaker drop out. This includes Lisa McSherry, Raven Grimassi, Stephanie Taylor, Donald Michael Kraig, and Ann Moura. Most cite Drew’s effigy ritual as the prime reason for backing out.

“Had we known that the RWB would focus (as indicated by the importance placed on it on the RWB website) on a political protest in the form of a negative ritual wherein living people are sacrificed in effigy, we would not have accepted the invitation. In our judgment the ritual is a type of black magic and vigilantism. The design of the ritual as described to us could have a negative impact on the community and may be psychologically deleterious to some participants. As a result, we have decided to not participate in this year’s event.”

Drew has also faced criticism from prominent Pagan leaders like Isaac Bonewits who came to the defense of the Frosts.

“I have known the Frosts for decades and they are good people. The overwhelming majority of their words and actions have benefited the Craft more than harmed it. Gavin put that chapter in his first book primarily for shock effect, to get people thinking and arguing about what our theories about adolescent sexuality should be. So he put something in that was as far from the mainstream as possible. This was a really foolish thing to do, as it has led to unfounded accusations against the Frosts ever since.”

Meanwhile others, like author and Wiccan elder Raymond Buckland, have praised Drew’s intent while criticizing the planned ritual.

“Let me get into the fuss over the proposed “De-Frosting,” if I may? Using effigies is fine if they are used for positive purposes (such as healing). But NOTHING should be condoned that is negative or is in any way working against someone. That can only be construed as negative magic (“black magic”). I think this is why some of your proposed speakers have bailed out from RWB07. It’s because they don’t want to be associated with working negative magic, not necessarily because they endorse what the Frosts do. If I had been able to attend this year’s ball, I would not have been a part of such a ritual … you’ve made a great statement, AJ, and something does need to be done. But it’s how to do it. There are always positive ways to work things, if you think about it.”

More recently, Drew has come into conflict with Peg Aloi, an author and media coordinator for The Witches’ Voice. The nature of their conflict is a bit labyrinthine, and it seems that the issue of Drew’s campaign against the Frosts is simply the latest bone of contention between them.

“For me, the “issue at hand” has nothing to do with your questions regarding my position on the Frosts writing or the support they have from other people in the pagan community. The “issue at hand” is your histrionics, designed to whip the visitors to the PN website into a frenzy. As well as your desire to stage a public psychic attack which may well end up having serious psychic and other sorts of consequences. As well as your self-serving attempt to draw attention to yourself by attacking two elderly people who have not done anything wrong.” – Peg Aloi (posting as “nightshy”)

Finally, the Frosts themselves have started a blog, and have taken to attacking the attacks against them (though not by discussing the controversial material they have published).

“Public attacks on Wiccans/pagans are harmful; ipso facto the attackers are not Wiccans or pagans but instead are nurturing in their psyche an internalized sectarian Christian paradigm.”

As of interest are comments made by Bronwyn Frost, a daughter of Gaving and Yvonne Frost.

“I think open and honest discussion is welcome. This discussion has provoked more discussion between my parents, my husband, and myself and it reinforces for me that if I didn’t have Wicca as a faith and learned my faith here, from these blogs and the words of some of the writers represented, I would not be Wiccan. I am Wiccan and proud and I am proud to be my parents’ daughter. I am proud that they have taken the stand they did and that they have not wavered in their strength and faith that honest information about pagan practices are relevant to the discussion today.”

Drew’s responses so far have been to reiterate his opinion that the Frosts are encouraging pedophilia, and that they themselves have been participants as such. On his blog he has admitted to making a list of people and companies he feels are supporting the Frosts (and therefore supporting pedophilia and their controversial material) to present to the “national press and other media sources”, and has written to Charles “Chuck” Colson (one of the Watergate criminals who subsequently became a born-again Christian involved in prison ministry) about the Frosts’ book being available to prisoners.

“Did you know that there is a Wiccan organization, which has promoted the molestation, intoxication, and rape of children in the name of Wicca? Did you know that one of the leaders of Seax Wicca seems to promote violent hatred of homosexuals?”

So, if anything, Drew is certainly focused on his “goal” of casting out all who he feels are “supporting” pedophilia. But it remains to be seen if any of this will actually benefit endangered children, remove the controversial material the Frosts have written, or sway the greater Pagan community into action. So far it appears that the controversy of his ritual and quest may have overshadowed his full-throated defense of children. Tomorrow I will discuss the Frosts, their controversial material concerning minors, and what the Pagan/Heathen community could/should do about it.

So I will be doing a two-part update on this issue. Part one will focus on the fall-out from A.J. Drew’s plans to “sacrifice” the Frosts, and part two will discuss the issues concerning the Frosts’ book, accusations of pedophilia, and how the Pagan community can approach this issue in a way that benefits all of us. Needless to say that comments will be moderated, and anyone who I feel falls outside the bounds of civil discussion will not find themselves a forum here. Part one will be posted later this afternoon, and part two will be posted on Saturday.

For those wondering what this is all about, I suggest reading my original post on the subject, A.J. Drew’s mission statement on his quest “DeFrost”, The blog that the Frosts’ started in the aftermath of this current explosion of attention, and the controversial chapter of the Frosts’ book (and the added introduction) that Drew and others are referencing.
]]> http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2007/08/update-on-aj-drew-frosts-effigy.html/feed 0 http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2007/07/updates-on-past-stories.html http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2007/07/updates-on-past-stories.html#comments Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:24:00 +0000 Jason Pitzl-Waters http://patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2007/07/updates-on-past-stories.html Living Goddess loses status. 10-year-old Nepalese Kumari (living goddess) Sajani Shakya has had her status revoked for traveling to the United States. Shakya was traveling to promote a new documentary about the Kumari in Nepal, when word came from the Nepalese government that they would begin the process to look for a replacement due to her “forbidden” action. Ishbel Whitaker, the director of the documentary, claims that this rule never existed before now and that this is most likely a political move.

“Ishbel Whitaker, director of the film “Living Goddess” said she was shocked and saddened by this news and would make sure the girl’s education was provided for. “The rule of not being able to leave was never a rule before…. Nobody ever said the Kumari can’t travel” she said by telephone from London. Whitaker said they filmed in Bhaktapur for a year. “We had been speaking with people we felt were authorities, and now these others are claiming they are,” she said. The film crew consulted anthropologists, the head priests of Sajani’s temple and her parents, the director said. And she said the Nepalese Embassy helped arrange Sajani’s trip to the U.S.”

It should be interesting to see what further developments take place due to all the publicity placed on this tradition. Luckily Sajani Shakya will be well-cared in the wake of her losing her Kumari status, though it remains to be seen if the parents will appeal this decision. You can read my original post about the living goddesses and the documentary, here.

Witch School’s new home. Now that the Witch School has been sold (and shares sold in the “new” corporation), and they have closed up shop in Hoopeston, Illinois, they have decided on their brand new home. Rossville, Illinois.

“After four years, a Wiccan school is leaving Hoopeston, but it’s not going far. This week, the new owners will be moving the school into its new location at 117 S. Chicago St. in downtown Rossville. “We’re very happy to go to Rossville,” said Don Lewis, the chief executive officer of and majority shareholder in Witch School International … Lewis, who lives in Hoopeston but will be moving to Rossville, said people in Hoopeston showed support to the school, but some in the city government and the local power structure did not. “And I’m hoping the people of Rossville will not have any preconceived ideas about us, and come out and meet us,” he said. “They will find we are normal people. Everyone we’ve talked to so far in Rossville has been nice.” Just this week, Witch School International purchased the building in Rossville, which formerly housed the business Gift Baskets By Wilma.”

With Rossville’s estimated population of 1270 (and shrinking), perhaps Witch School will finally achieve their dreams of building a “Salem of the Midwest”. Though it may be hard to convince a couple thousand modern Pagans to move to a tiny town an hour’s drive from the nearest modern amenities. You can read previous Witch School-related posts, here.

Pagan Rally in Washington. I don’t have any major follow-ups on the rally that took place yesterday, but the On Faith blog has posted several more responses to their panelist question concerning Pagan chaplains, the Washington rally, and if you would vote for a Pagan politician. Not surprisingly, people like Chuck Colson are against the rights of Pagans, while Starhawk is emphatically pro-Pagan.

“I’m cheering for my Pagan sisters and brothers who are demonstrating on this Fourth of July for the right to have a Pagan chaplain in the military. Our constitution, which they have volunteered to defend, grants us the freedom of religion. That doesn’t mean “freedom of any religion we approve of but not those that make us uncomfortable or that we’ve never heard of.” It means freedom to follow the calling of one’s own faith and conscience.”

As I said in yesterday’s post, please let me know if any photos or write-ups of the rally appear, this is an important story and I want to follow it fully. For more posts on this subject (and on the Veteran Pentacle Quest) click, here.

Frosts Effigy Controversy. My original post discussing AJ Drew’s plans to destroy effigies of the Frosts, for writings that many feel promote pedophilia, has garnered more comments than any other on this blog (100 total and counting). Now AJ Drew himself is participating in the back and forth.

“The Frosts are promoted by Pagan Pride, Starwood, Sirius Rising, Brushwood, and other events. They are promoted by Patricia Telesco, Isaac Bonewitz, and other leading authors. Even Janet and Stewart Farrar made a video with Gavin Frost in which they called each other friends for decades. My plan to sacrifice them in effigy at this year’s International Real Witches Ball will bring attention to this. People who do not know, will know. They will no longer be able to hide the monsters that they are and those who supported them these many years will be shown for the money minded self promoting business as usual authors and organizations that they are.”

Since the original post is moving off the front page, I am posting links to the comment thread(s) so people can find the discussion and participate if they want. HERE are the Haloscan comments (which comprises the bulk of the comments), and HERE are the Blogger commments. Please try to remain civil, I’m pretty open-minded about comments, but I will not hesitate to delete anything that I think crosses a line (threats, intimidation, personal attacks).

That is all I have for now, have a good day.

Here are a few quick things I wanted to mention:

The AJ Drew/Frosts effigy controversy – this may be the most commented entry in the history of this blog. I highly recommend making your way through both comment threads (and adding your voice if you wish). I believe there are some very productive things being said concerning the Frost’s book, the resulting controversy, and AJ Drew’s response.

The Rita Moran / Christian Civil League issue – again, I highly recommend looking through the comments here, it appears that the fear-mongering tactics of the Maine Christian Civil League have backfired. Many Pagans, local Maine residents, and people concerned with common decency have stepped forward to protest the treatment given to Moran, made donations to the Maine Democrats or bought a book from her local book store. In addition, their attempted intimidation of commenters by posting personal information has also hit the skids due to the questionable legality of their actions, and the comments page has been removed entirely.

In a final note, there are some interesting stories developing out there that I plan to touch on soon, including the fate of Independent Affiliates within the Unitarian-Universalist Association, which includes CUUPs (the Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans). So look for that soon. Everyone should also check out a very interesting article on Paganism in Utah that I’ll most likely touch on in a separate post (possibly tomorrow if I have the time).

That is all I have time for at the moment, have a great day!
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