I have a book that spells out the fundimentals of life for all of mankind, and gives hope to all. It boldly proclaims the truth about creation, how we have lived, and how we are to live as saved believers, and also gives details as to what to expect in the remaining days of this world and afterlife. Nowhere in this book does it give the credit to man or any of his ways as being the reason for anything other than hate, lust, envy, strife and selfishness,and just evil in general. This is not some self serving “religion” we are dealing with here, but rather the actuall word of God. I feel no guilt about potentially damaging the world with this information, because it contains the very power of God to save those that are lost, and offers to believers glory in the Lord. What is wrong with that?— Is it in my mind that I cannot submit to something greater than me? Not one verse in the Bible tells us to hate or mistreat each other. Man has very carefully choosen verses of the word of God and manipulated it into the “religions” and massivly varying viewpoints you see around the world. . People who attempt to beat God with their wordly wisdom, only make the glory of God more evident to those who believe in him. I am not a fool, who chooses to ignore physical evidence, rather am willing to accept that the will and knowlege of God far exceedes any percieved way of beating him or disproving him. God is only true to those who will allow him to be. The minute you turn off the possiblity of him even being real, and trying to get someone to prove a spiritual thing, you have removed yourself from any hope of understanding what God did for you, John.
“I have a book…”
A book of myths.
“This is not some self serving “religion” we are dealing with here…”. Yes, it is. That is exactly what it is. Just like all of the other religions.
“I feel no guilt about potentially damaging the world with this information,” And i feel no guilt about asking for evidence instead of blind gullibility.
“What is wrong with that?” What is wrong with adults believing in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy?
“I am not a fool, who chooses to ignore physical evidence, ” Well, you have shown you are clearly willing to ignore physical evidence. You just went through a whole post telling me how it doesn’t count.
“The minute you turn off the possiblity of him even being real, and trying to get someone to prove a spiritual thing, you have removed yourself from any hope of understanding what God did for you, John.”
First, I haven’t turned off the possibility. All I have done is ask fo revidence. How can I get you to understand that? I repeat it over and over: SHOW ME EVIDENCE.
This attitude is the wet dream of every con man on the planet: “Turn off your bullshit detector, ignore all evidence, and just believe what I tell you. It is your only chance.”
I call shenanigans on that.
If you have evidence, produce it. If you don’t have evidence, it isn’t worth belief.
And as I said before to your demand for evidence……I guarentee it will be wholly an undeniably presented to you when you face God someday. You demand physical evidence over and over, even after I have told you that spiritual things cannot be compared with the physical things of this world. Answer me this John, do you believe that you are only correct about something if the thing can be proven? Ok, now I bet if I asked you if you loved JT very dearly, you would say yes. OK prove it. You cannot provide me with one single piece of evidence to prove that you have that emotion for him. You can try, but to an unbias and unobjective observer, all of your attempts would seem vain, or selfish, or whatever reason. Right? So here is my challenge to you. Let me stand at your front door every morning at 5am and proclaim John Eberhard does not love JT Ebedrhard because he refuses to provide me with undeniable physical evidence. I bet you would quickly abondon your viewpoint of prove it, and would want me to accept your word, right? Maybe I am way off, and going on for my own sake here, but I never claimed to be a scholar, but rather someone who sees a lost soul and want to help.
And I never claimed ignorqnce of physical evidence is the only fuel to propel my God bus, I just know that certain things are not understood the same way as man wants to elect to understand them. Yes we cannot prove the physical presence of God. You are completely correct, however, for your own sake I asked you to entertain an idea that physical evidence is not the only way to prove somthing……it it just the only way to immediatly prove something…dig?
Dad wrote back…
“.I guarentee it will be wholly an undeniably presented to you when you face God someday.” Horse pucky. You believe that, and belief isn’t a guarantee, just as Muslims believe it will be presented when you face Allah and Hindus believe it will be when you face Vishnu. There is absolutely zero difference.
“You cannot provide me with one single piece of evidence to prove that you have that emotion for him.” Of course I can. And, people in divorce court are called upon to provide that very type of evidence every day. I can provide abundant evidence. Photos of us going places together, participating in school and after school activities with him, receipts where I paid for his college, etc. Plenty of evidence. Where’s yours?
“but rather someone who sees a lost soul and want to help.” You want to help? Provide some evidence…..the same kind of evidence you would expect from a Muslim who sees a lost soul in YOU and wants to help. Go.
“physical evidence is not the only way to prove somthing……it it just the only way to immediatly prove something…dig?” Wouldn’t that make magic, voodoo, astrology, and every other religion just as likely to be true since physical evidence doesn’t matter when it comes to their probability?
Robert then wrote…
Ok, hand me a reciept that says you did it out of love and not a felt moral obligation. Your going to use a witness stand in a courtroom, where more lies are told than presumably any other place on the planet as evidence of love or no love. Wow, I thought you were gining me some pretty good retorts up til that one….wow. Oh, and photos, prove what? I could have a photo of me and Bill Gates, but that provides no actuall evidence of love between us. And yes, the sad fact is that all beliefs in the world are subject to the fact that spiritual things are not physical. I hardly think that a book, if read with proper instruction that never once contridicts itself over the course of 6000 years, could be wrong. . Oh and I know, you will say, “the Bible doesnt match up with scientific evidence discovered by man.” And to this I will say, your science doesn’t match with my 6000 year old book. It is not a book of myths, but rather something so powerful, the god of this world has every intention of keeping you from believing it. It is so powerful, that people such as yourself can see themself, and the things they experiance in this life, in the words, and it scares the living crap out of them. I think you are afraid to let God be true and are more willing to accept the truths of mankind, who have turned their back on you every chance they get. They don’t have that ultimate power over you, like God does, so they are easier to deal with. Sadly if you would just submit to God and his word, you would quickly see that he does not hate you, does not want to condemn you, he does not want to put you down. Rather he wants to build you up, justify you, love you!!!!!!The truth about God is that he has the power to condemn you, but loved you enough since before the foundation of the world, that within the perameters of free will, can give us a perfect and acceptable way of getting to him. From the first person, Adam, God has asked us to listen to him, and we have rejected him. Knowing this, he gave us a way out, through the blood of his Son. He does’t want you to work your way to him, trying to do more good and less bad. And, he certainly doesn’t want us to try and impress him. He says he will save us if we simply believe. He want us to live our lives without fear of falling short. The finished work of Jesus Christ was enough. Nothing else is required. All other “religions” on the planet differ from this in that they all require physical acts, rituals, etc., etc., which is not giving any Glory to a Savior but rather establishing salvation and righteousness on their own.
These are the main reasons I can easily and confidently dismiss any other beliefs. Why would I want to belong to a program that incorporates the need for a bunch of failures to show a bunch of faiures how to be saved. But, with the word of God, void of any man’s traditions, doctrines, etc, I can see expressly what he wants for me because it is written as simple and plain as a will written from a father to their son.
“These are the main reasons I can easily and confidently dismiss any other beliefs.” And lack of evidence is why I can easily and confidently dismiss yours.
And I am tired of being preached at. If I wanted that, I would go to a church. You wanted an opportunity to give me evidence. You failed to do so, but gave me lame arguments and superstitious hocus pocus based on how passionately you believe. You say silly stuff like “I could have a photo of me and Bill Gates, but that provides no actuall evidence of love between us”, as if I hadn’t said “photos” (plural), and as if a life time of photos were no more evidence than one of you and Bill Gates. And that is just ludicrous.
Seriously, you are welcome to ignore evidence and lack of evidence and to believe anything you want to believe, and I offer that same opportunity to all superstitious people who believe in the supernatural,whether Christians, Muslims, Hindus, voodoos, or whatever. I didn’t come on here offering to try to change your mind, you came in here wanting to ” put my two cents in on your atheist view point.” You have done so. I remain unconvinced, you have still after all this time provided absolutely zero evidence or good arguments. All you have done is offer afterlilfe threats and promises, guarantees on things there is no possible way you could guarantee, and a bunch of superstitious mumbo jumbo that you believe in passionately from a bronze age book of myths that have talking animals.
It’s been nice talking to you. If you ever come up with any evidence, I will be glad to revisit this matter with you. Until then, if I feel the need for glory of god rah rah, I will attend a church to get it. I very much doubt that will happen.
Robert responded with…
yeah, good talkin to you too. Sorry we cannot discuss this topic unless we play on your field of physical evidence. That is where the game turned, and I am insufficieantly armed. I attempted to get you to talk to me about things on a spiritual level. I never denied there are certain truths about this world/universe found in science. However, I did try to entertain the idea that science is not constant and is not the only tool to measure our lives with. I also recall making what was probably no less than a feeble attempt to entertain another idea: that elements of this world/universe , impercievable through scientific proof, can and do exist. My book quailifies science as a study of the wonderful things God gave us in this world (short of the part of science that constantly tries to disprove a God in a world with no other logical explanation, other than various theoris lacking any need for intelligent design ). I tried to entertain the idea of something better than this horrible world we live in, based on having faith in something greater than us, who will give us glory to follow. Yeah, so shoot me. If I offended you I apologize. I never cut your way of living down, or asked you to join a church, or even placed myself above you in any way. I DID NOT meet your stringent standard of engaging in the possibility of a spiritual entity, without first establishing a baseline of solid physical and scientific evidence. You have me labeled as some hubu juba story following dumbass, and that’s fine. I will gladly take that lable if its attached to my belief in Christ or God. Take care John. May God bless you and your family.
Dad wrote back…
“I attempted to get you to talk to me about things on a spiritual level.” I do not believe there is such a thing. At least, I have seen no persuasive evidence for it.
“that elements of this world/universe , impercievable through scientific proof, can and do exist.” I disagree, and do not accept that premise. Why? Because there is no evidence.
“I tried to entertain the idea of something better than this horrible world we live in…” Horrible world? I love this world! Sorry to hear yours is horrible. Mine is great. Maybe it would be better if Santa Claus was real, but it’s still just fine by me.
“I never cut your way of living down,…” Nor I, yours.
“You have me labeled as some hubu juba story following dumbass,…” Please do not put words in my mouth. You choose to ignore evidence and lack of evidence in favor of faith (belief without evidence or in the face of evidence to the contrary). If you want to say that makes you a dumbass, have at it. I never implied anything of the sort. I realize not everyone requires physical evidence. I certainly don’t accuse the billions of people who are religious of all being dumbasses. However, I do accuse them of being superstitious because that is the definition of someone who believes in supernatural phenomena. And gods are supernatural.
Here is the definition of superstition: 1. a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
“I will gladly take that lable if its attached to my belief in Christ or God.” If you take that label, it is because you attach it to yourself. You seem to want to paint yourself as a persecuted martyr because you cannot produce evidence or good arguments for your position. Feel free to go ahead, but please don’t project it onto me as being responsible.
“May God bless you and your family.” Thanks. Have a nice day.
The whole thing wraps up at 6pm EST.