Dad is getting my emails part IV

Robert continues with my dad (after parts one, two, and three).

I have a book that spells out the fundimentals of life for all of mankind, and gives hope to all. It boldly proclaims the truth about creation, how we have lived, and how we are to live as saved believers, and also gives details as to what to expect in the remaining days of this world and afterlife. Nowhere in this book does it give the credit to man or any of his ways as being the reason for anything other than hate, lust, envy, strife and selfishness,and just evil in general. This is not some self serving “religion” we are dealing with here, but rather the actuall word of God. I feel no guilt about potentially damaging the world with this information, because it contains the very power of God to save those that are lost, and offers to believers glory in the Lord. What is wrong with that?— Is it in my mind that I cannot submit to something greater than me? Not one verse in the Bible tells us to hate or mistreat each other. Man has very carefully choosen verses of the word of God and manipulated it into the “religions” and massivly varying viewpoints you see around the world. . People who attempt to beat God with their wordly wisdom, only make the glory of God more evident to those who believe in him. I am not a fool, who chooses to ignore physical evidence, rather am willing to accept that the will and knowlege of God far exceedes any percieved way of beating him or disproving him. God is only true to those who will allow him to be. The minute you turn off the possiblity of him even being real, and trying to get someone to prove a spiritual thing, you have removed yourself from any hope of understanding what God did for you, John.

Dad responds…

“I have a book…”
A book of myths.

“This is not some self serving “religion” we are dealing with here…”. Yes, it is. That is exactly what it is. Just like all of the other religions.

“I feel no guilt about potentially damaging the world with this information,” And i feel no guilt about asking for evidence instead of blind gullibility.

“What is wrong with that?” What is wrong with adults believing in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy?

“I am not a fool, who chooses to ignore physical evidence, ” Well, you have shown you are clearly willing to ignore physical evidence. You just went through a whole post telling me how it doesn’t count.

“The minute you turn off the possiblity of him even being real, and trying to get someone to prove a spiritual thing, you have removed yourself from any hope of understanding what God did for you, John.”
First, I haven’t turned off the possibility. All I have done is ask fo revidence. How can I get you to understand that? I repeat it over and over: SHOW ME EVIDENCE.
This attitude is the wet dream of every con man on the planet: “Turn off your bullshit detector, ignore all evidence, and just believe what I tell you. It is your only chance.”
I call shenanigans on that.
If you have evidence, produce it. If you don’t have evidence, it isn’t worth belief.

Robert responds…

And as I said before to your demand for evidence……I guarentee it will be wholly an undeniably presented to you when you face God someday. You demand physical evidence over and over, even after I have told you that spiritual things cannot be compared with the physical things of this world. Answer me this John, do you believe that you are only correct about something if the thing can be proven? Ok, now I bet if I asked you if you loved JT very dearly, you would say yes. OK prove it. You cannot provide me with one single piece of evidence to prove that you have that emotion for him. You can try, but to an unbias and unobjective observer, all of your attempts would seem vain, or selfish, or whatever reason. Right? So here is my challenge to you. Let me stand at your front door every morning at 5am and proclaim John Eberhard does not love JT Ebedrhard because he refuses to provide me with undeniable physical evidence. I bet you would quickly abondon your viewpoint of prove it, and would want me to accept your word, right? Maybe I am way off, and going on for my own sake here, but I never claimed to be a scholar, but rather someone who sees a lost soul and want to help.

And I never claimed ignorqnce of physical evidence is the only fuel to propel my God bus, I just know that certain things are not understood the same way as man wants to elect to understand them. Yes we cannot prove the physical presence of God. You are completely correct, however, for your own sake I asked you to entertain an idea that physical evidence is not the only way to prove somthing……it it just the only way to immediatly prove something…dig?

Dad wrote back…

“.I guarentee it will be wholly an undeniably presented to you when you face God someday.” Horse pucky. You believe that, and belief isn’t a guarantee, just as Muslims believe it will be presented when you face Allah and Hindus believe it will be when you face Vishnu. There is absolutely zero difference.

“You cannot provide me with one single piece of evidence to prove that you have that emotion for him.” Of course I can. And, people in divorce court are called upon to provide that very type of evidence every day. I can provide abundant evidence. Photos of us going places together, participating in school and after school activities with him, receipts where I paid for his college, etc. Plenty of evidence. Where’s yours?

“but rather someone who sees a lost soul and want to help.” You want to help? Provide some evidence…..the same kind of evidence you would expect from a Muslim who sees a lost soul in YOU and wants to help. Go.

“physical evidence is not the only way to prove somthing……it it just the only way to immediatly prove something…dig?” Wouldn’t that make magic, voodoo, astrology, and every other religion just as likely to be true since physical evidence doesn’t matter when it comes to their probability?

Robert then wrote…

Ok, hand me a reciept that says you did it out of love and not a felt moral obligation. Your going to use a witness stand in a courtroom, where more lies are told than presumably any other place on the planet as evidence of love or no love. Wow, I thought you were gining me some pretty good retorts up til that one….wow. Oh, and photos, prove what? I could have a photo of me and Bill Gates, but that provides no actuall evidence of love between us. And yes, the sad fact is that all beliefs in the world are subject to the fact that spiritual things are not physical. I hardly think that a book, if read with proper instruction that never once contridicts itself over the course of 6000 years, could be wrong. . Oh and I know, you will say, “the Bible doesnt match up with scientific evidence discovered by man.” And to this I will say, your science doesn’t match with my 6000 year old book. It is not a book of myths, but rather something so powerful, the god of this world has every intention of keeping you from believing it. It is so powerful, that people such as yourself can see themself, and the things they experiance in this life, in the words, and it scares the living crap out of them. I think you are afraid to let God be true and are more willing to accept the truths of mankind, who have turned their back on you every chance they get. They don’t have that ultimate power over you, like God does, so they are easier to deal with. Sadly if you would just submit to God and his word, you would quickly see that he does not hate you, does not want to condemn you, he does not want to put you down. Rather he wants to build you up, justify you, love you!!!!!!

The truth about God is that he has the power to condemn you, but loved you enough since before the foundation of the world, that within the perameters of free will, can give us a perfect and acceptable way of getting to him. From the first person, Adam, God has asked us to listen to him, and we have rejected him. Knowing this, he gave us a way out, through the blood of his Son. He does’t want you to work your way to him, trying to do more good and less bad. And, he certainly doesn’t want us to try and impress him. He says he will save us if we simply believe. He want us to live our lives without fear of falling short. The finished work of Jesus Christ was enough. Nothing else is required. All other “religions” on the planet differ from this in that they all require physical acts, rituals, etc., etc., which is not giving any Glory to a Savior but rather establishing salvation and righteousness on their own.

These are the main reasons I can easily and confidently dismiss any other beliefs. Why would I want to belong to a program that incorporates the need for a bunch of failures to show a bunch of faiures how to be saved. But, with the word of God, void of any man’s traditions, doctrines, etc, I can see expressly what he wants for me because it is written as simple and plain as a will written from a father to their son.

Dad wrote…

  “These are the main reasons I can easily and confidently dismiss any other beliefs.” And lack of evidence is why I can easily and confidently dismiss yours.

And I am tired of being preached at. If I wanted that, I would go to a church. You wanted an opportunity to give me evidence. You failed to do so, but gave me lame arguments and superstitious hocus pocus based on how passionately you believe. You say silly stuff like “I could have a photo of me and Bill Gates, but that provides no actuall evidence of love between us”, as if I hadn’t said “photos” (plural), and as if a life time of photos were no more evidence than one of you and Bill Gates. And that is just ludicrous.

Seriously, you are welcome to ignore evidence and lack of evidence and to believe anything you want to believe, and I offer that same opportunity to all superstitious people who believe in the supernatural,whether Christians, Muslims, Hindus, voodoos, or whatever. I didn’t come on here offering to try to change your mind, you came in here wanting to ” put my two cents in on your atheist view point.” You have done so. I remain unconvinced, you have still after all this time provided absolutely zero evidence or good arguments. All you have done is offer afterlilfe threats and promises, guarantees on things there is no possible way you could guarantee, and a bunch of superstitious mumbo jumbo that you believe in passionately from a bronze age book of myths that have talking animals.

It’s been nice talking to you. If you ever come up with any evidence, I will be glad to revisit this matter with you. Until then, if I feel the need for glory of god rah rah, I will attend a church to get it. I very much doubt that will happen.

Robert responded with…

yeah, good talkin to you too. Sorry we cannot discuss this topic unless we play on your field of physical evidence. That is where the game turned, and I am insufficieantly armed. I attempted to get you to talk to me about things on a spiritual level. I never denied there are certain truths about this world/universe found in science. However, I did try to entertain the idea that science is not constant and is not the only tool to measure our lives with. I also recall making what was probably no less than a feeble attempt to entertain another idea: that elements of this world/universe , impercievable through scientific proof, can and do exist. My book quailifies science as a study of the wonderful things God gave us in this world (short of the part of science that constantly tries to disprove a God in a world with no other logical explanation, other than various theoris lacking any need for intelligent design ). I tried to entertain the idea of something better than this horrible world we live in, based on having faith in something greater than us, who will give us glory to follow. Yeah, so shoot me. If I offended you I apologize. I never cut your way of living down, or asked you to join a church, or even placed myself above you in any way. I DID NOT meet your stringent standard of engaging in the possibility of a spiritual entity, without first establishing a baseline of solid physical and scientific evidence. You have me labeled as some hubu juba story following dumbass, and that’s fine. I will gladly take that lable if its attached to my belief in Christ or God. Take care John. May God bless you and your family.

Dad wrote back…

“I attempted to get you to talk to me about things on a spiritual level.” I do not believe there is such a thing. At least, I have seen no persuasive evidence for it.

“that elements of this world/universe , impercievable through scientific proof, can and do exist.” I disagree, and do not accept that premise. Why? Because there is no evidence.

“I tried to entertain the idea of something better than this horrible world we live in…” Horrible world? I love this world! Sorry to hear yours is horrible. Mine is great. Maybe it would be better if Santa Claus was real, but it’s still just fine by me.

“I never cut your way of living down,…” Nor I, yours.

“You have me labeled as some hubu juba story following dumbass,…” Please do not put words in my mouth. You choose to ignore evidence and lack of evidence in favor of faith (belief without evidence or in the face of evidence to the contrary). If you want to say that makes you a dumbass, have at it. I never implied anything of the sort. I realize not everyone requires physical evidence. I certainly don’t accuse the billions of people who are religious of all being dumbasses. However, I do accuse them of being superstitious because that is the definition of someone who believes in supernatural phenomena. And gods are supernatural.

Here is the definition of superstition: 1. a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.

“I will gladly take that lable if its attached to my belief in Christ or God.” If you take that label, it is because you attach it to yourself. You seem to want to paint yourself as a persecuted martyr because you cannot produce evidence or good arguments for your position. Feel free to go ahead, but please don’t project it onto me as being responsible.

“May God bless you and your family.” Thanks. Have a nice day.

The whole thing wraps up at 6pm EST.

  • Leo

    I feel no guilt about potentially damaging the world with this information, because it contains the very power of God to save those that are lost, and offers to believers glory in the Lord. What is wrong with that?

    Ohhhhhhh….gosh! That sent a chill up my spine! That. That is why atheists exist and why we are outspoken. I’m going to try to read more, but this guy is starting to scare me!

    • http://www.atheist-faq.com Jasper T

      Yes, and that’s why religion has left a wake of endless fields of blood and corpses.

    • J.

      I felt the same way when I saw that. Christians believe that they have a personal mission to convert this entire world to their belief system. They have a personal mission to make, not just this country, but this entire world a theocracy. It’s genuinely scary.

  • sqlrob

    There’s another part too???? Damn, I would’ve sent the e-mails to /dev/null long before now.

  • http://www.atheist-faq.com Jasper T

    physical evidence is not the only way to prove somthing……it it just the only way to immediatly prove something…dig?

    Sure. I have another way of knowing things – a Magic 8-ball. I can ask it questions and it’ll tell me.

    The question is, is that data accurate?

    I have challenged theists over and over to defining how their “alternative way of knowing” works, and to demonstrate that it’s consistently accurate.

    No takers. Ever.

    We use science because it works. In fact, it’s the only investigative tool that we have that works, at all.

  • http://iamologies.wordpress.com Ologies

    “Why would I want to belong to a program that incorporates the need for a bunch of failures to show a bunch of faiures how to be saved”

    The irony of this is delicious. Christianity came from what was seen as failure in Judaism, and Islam came from what was seen as failure in its two predecessors. What we’ve got here is one giant fail-party. By this guy’s logic, he should probably be brushing up on the Qur’an soon.

  • cag

    From Part II

    I am also not so proud as to continue on with a futile argument with someone who has no desire to consider what I say. Therefore John I will graciously end this with a request that we agree to disagree.

    What we have here is a failure to excommunicate.

  • Leo

    I found the strength to carry on…

    However, I did try to entertain the idea that science is not constant and is not the only tool to measure our lives with.

    Your dad didn’t cover this, but my personal thought is “OK, now describe how this tool works and show that it is an effective tool. You can ‘entertain’ the idea all you want, but I’m not buying an ineffective tool.”

  • DaveL

    You have me labeled as some hubu juba story following dumbass

    …And there it is, substituting as evaluation of his own self-image for an evaluation of a truth claim. Can non-stupid people believe stupid things? Yes they can. Usually because they neglect to check whether or not potential beliefs are stupid, on the principle that since they aren’t stupid they couldn’t possibly hold a stupid belief.

  • Dustin

    I still wish people would grow up the first time, instead of being “born again”

  • DaveL

    Ok, now I bet if I asked you if you loved JT very dearly, you would say yes. OK prove it. You cannot provide me with one single piece of evidence to prove that you have that emotion for him.

    PZ Myers once observed that there’s a word in the English language for people who believe in love without evidence. We call them “stalkers.”

  • J*

    “Not one verse in the Bible tells us to hate or mistreat each other.”

    Just as you cant eat one potato chip.

  • evilDoug

    While I admire your dad for his persistence, this stuff almost always comes down to something that could be done with a chimera descended from a flow chart, a Chinese menu, a Klein bottle and a Möbius strip. I don’t spend a lot of time on such matters, but I have NEVER seen or heard anything original from any believer. Lots of little variants they think are “gotchas” – but never are.

  • TV200

    I have this picture in my mind of Robert pounding away on the keyboard, foam flecks his mouth as he types, thinking, “This time, this time I have John. I win, I win I win.”
    John, at his keyboard, sighs, gently shakes his head and, in a resigned voice, says “Here we go again.”

  • http://www.madartlab.com Victor

    He’s not done yet!?!!? He’s said goodbye like 5 times! Sheesh.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/Erulora Erulóra Maikalambe

    You cannot provide me with one single piece of evidence to prove that you have that emotion for him.

    Science doesn’t require that things be proven with “one single piece of evidence”. That’s something you hear from the anti-science folks. They want to see the one fossil that proves evolution. One single piece of evidence may disprove something, but to prove something we look at the evidence as a whole.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lezkimo suzysalaksartok

    “Nothing else is required. All other “religions” on the planet differ from this in that they all require physical acts, rituals, etc., etc., which is not giving any Glory to a Savior but rather establishing salvation and righteousness on their own.

    These are the main reasons I can easily and confidently dismiss any other beliefs.”

    Uh…what?…Argumentum ad lazium? Easy=true?

    You know, its a lot easier just believing that when you die your soul becomes a part of the lifestream, which flows throughout the universe into a portal to God’s realm, who is using it to power her magic barrier to keep Lord Felstrike imprisoned, a titanic sentient anti-matter elemental who wants to destroy everything. No rituals required, dont even have to believe it, either way your soul is used to power the barrier saving the rest of the universe.

    This guy as repeatedly said how shit everything in the world is, how he doesnt care if he does damage, how you dont have to worry about being a good person, etc etc…Does this guy like, actually function in society? I can’t imagine whatever he does for a living involves writing anything, or communicating, or troubleshooting (owing to his spitefulness of evidence), or being around other people. Are we going to have to revisit these emails on a 60 minutes special after it turns out this guy MDK’d a bunch of archeologists digging for fossils somewhere visible on his drive home from work?

  • Desert Son, OM

    If I offended you I apologize.

    Ah, the classic aroma and palate of a conditional apology. I’m getting hints of irresponsibility with subtle disingenuous notes signalling a period of aging within a cask of lack-of-empathy. I recommend it with the fish.

    within the perameters of free will

    Evidence requested. Try this one on, religious believer: Is your particular flavor of god omniscient? If so, then there can be no free will. If not, then why call the thing a god?

    Sorry we cannot discuss this topic unless we play on your field of physical evidence.

    I love the idea that it’s John Eberhard’s field. I don’t know about this Robert, but no matter how many times I’ve tried to make the “field” of gravity my own such that I could dictate terms, I still return to the larger gravitational proximity when I jump, or fly in an airplane. No matter how many times I’ve tried to make weak and strong atomic forces “my” field, I’ve never been able to rearrange by sheer force of personality the atomic structure in lead such that it becomes gold. No matter how many times I’ve tried to make “biology” my field, I have yet to will cancerous cells to stop replicating and threatening the environment in which they develop.

    It’s like evidence for the unvierse is actually independent of people’s perceptions or some shit. Who knew?

    I feel no guilt about potentially damaging the world with this information, because it contains the very power of God to save those that are lost, and offers to believers glory in the Lord. What is wrong with that?

    Thought exercise from one Robert to another (not that I expect it’ll get any traction, but maybe . . . ):

    Someone sees you suffering, and offers to pray for you. They recognize your struggle, they have genuine feelings of sympathy and solidarity for what you’re going through, so they offer to do the one thing they recognize as being truly powerful to change the circumstances of suffering in the life of a person. They offer to pray for you. Grateful, you say yes, and together, you and the other person join hands to beseech the divine power that can truly make a difference in the life of people.

    Gently cradling your hands, the other person speaks: “Hail to you who lives behind the winds, who gave the breath of life to humanity that it might emerge from the underworld. Hail to you who lives at the union of the land and the sky, who lights the star of dawn. I beseech you to relieve the suffering of your servant Robert, who keeps to his crop, who sees the mighty works of the winged snake and believes. Send your breath to disturb Robert’s pain, that he might return to his fields. In Quetzalcoatl’s name I ask this, and I offer this sacrifice of a human heart, cut from the still living captive, and laid in reverence upon the stone of your mighty pyramid.”

    How do you feel, Robert? After all, it’s the very word of god to save you, who are lost. What is wrong with that?

    May God bless you and your family.

    Probability of this happening is statistically indistinguishable from zero, or that which can be attributed to chance alone. As part of the broad-spectrum of education that Robert desperately needs a refresher course in, can we add an introductory statistics course?

    Still learning,

    Robert (no relation, so far as I know)

  • Kevin

    It truly is sad that this guy thinks he’s actually presented effective arguments in favor of his particular brand of superstitious nonsense.

    Of course, no argument offers anything other than something that can be argued. Ergo, no proof is contained within any argument.

    And, of course, we’re not asking even for iron-clad proof. Just evidence that rises above the level of “pretty sunset, ergo Jesus.”

    Evidence that overturns the null hypothesis. Evidence that can’t be used equally in favor of a no-superstition conclusion (ie, the mere presence of the universe, argument from design, etc.).

    Eric Hovind — he of small mind and even less education — talks about wearing one’s “god glasses”. (Or is it Ken Ham; whatever, they’re cut from the same cloth). It’s more like “god blindfolds”.

  • christophburschka

    I guarentee it will be wholly an undeniably presented to you when you face God someday.

    “I swear my evidence is in the mail! You’ll have it before judgement day!”

    Howsabout he just shuts up until then and lets “God” do the talking if he’s so sure.

  • Randomfactor

    play on your field of physical evidence.

    AKA “the real world.”

    I love it when the goddists use the old “prove your love for your wife/son/parent exists” gambit.

    I’m perfectly willing to agree that Robert’s god is an emotional state existing only within his skull yet affecting his behavior and his interactions with others, and thus every bit as “unproveable” as any OTHER emotional state.

    • arakasi

      Haven’t we managed to map the electro-chemical changes within the brain that correspond to different emotions? In theory then, we can map the elder Eberhard’s brain chemistry as he looks at pictures of J.T. and compare that to a “love” baseline and we would have our evidence. We could also look at the overt physiological changes (pupil dilation, body language, perspiration, behavioral cues, etc..) and get a cruder view of the same.

      That would, however, be conceding far too much to Robert. I, for one, don’t particularly care for his evidence that he loves god – I think that we are all more interested in his evidence that god exists, and that is much easier to work with. All we have to do is prove that J.T. exists, which can be done with a reasonable level of confidence by any reader of this blog, and to an extreme level of confidence to anyone who has met him personally

  • Janee

    “I feel no guilt about potentially damaging the world with this information,”
    That’s frightening, that this person doesn’t care about causing harm by his beliefs. He has no reason to believe what he does, but he’s willing to hurt people to continue believing them.
    This is why religion is a problem.


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