Dad is getting my emails

My dad got an email from a guy back home we both know (but whom I haven’t spoken to since high school).

JT. I went to school with you, whether you remember me or not. I have also known your Dad for quite a long time. I just thought I would put my two cents in on your atheist view point. For starters, God never told any of his believers to hate or to discriminate against anyone. He did set forth his word and his expectations to follow it. Here comes the folly of man. We cannot submit ourselves to his righteousness, which would work out fine for us. We are constantly trying to go about establishing our own: hence all the different religious denominations. God is not unjust, it is the fools who think they know better than him, who go around putting people down, etc. In Romans (KJV) 10, our Apostle Paul tells of how Isreal( God’s choosen people in the Old Testimant, did this very thing. They were so “religious” they even killed their own savior when he was sent to them. So, you are not going to find me sitting here debating my righteousness with anyone. However, the righteousness of God is perfect. That is the whole issue many denominations miss. They are so wrapped up in trying to follow the law of Moses, or any number of the ordinances in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Romans 10:4 says “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.” This is going directly against the idea most “religious” people are used to believing. Paul is stating that submitting to the righteousness of God is the way, not establishing your own. Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, he was burried and he rose the third day, according to the scriptures, for our justification. That is it. It is a finished work, and people in church are blind to this. They even go as far to try to trump that action with their own good doing, etc, etc. This was not the will of God. Cutting people down and telling people that your better than them is also not the will of God. In Romans 3:10-12 we are assured, ” As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one: (11 ) there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” This is a beautiful thing JT. This tells us to stop worrying about trying to be a good person, and just except that the blood of Christ was sufficient. In 1 Timothy 2:3-5 it is written “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Lord and Savior; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God , and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.” I don’t know what or who turned you off to God so badly in the past, but I would be willing to bet it had something to do with the oppressive behavior of the religious church people in this world. God is not accurately being represented and witnessed by those folks, and some of the stuff I have personally experienced in churches very much reflects that. Christ gives up hope for a glorious after life where the pain and suffering of this present and evil world cannot be compared to the glory to follow. Please consider coming to the Comfort Inn conference room on the third Wednesday of any month for an informal and completely non denominational or religious Bible study. We have food at 6 and do a Bible study from 7-8 ish. I really believe you will get something out of it.

Sorry JT I meant to type Christ gives us hope…, not gives up hope.

Robert ######

Then a second email.

Hi John. I saw you referrenced on JT’s website and thought I would send my comments to you as well. I respect you both and am not trying to be an antagonist, rather open up a healthy discussion, as you can see, I choose to keep private. The invitatiion is open to you as well to meet with us for a Bible study at the Comfort Inn conference room. I am not trying to challenge you to go, rather asking you to see the difference in a group of believers that is not motivated by greed (asking attendees for cash) or any other reason. We all simply get together to read and study the Bible from a literal perspective. No one will ask you to join, because you cannot. We are just a group of believers in the word of God, nothing else. We dont try to put anything on anyone.

Not sure how this all went to my dad, but not me.  Ah well.  Dad took the time to respond.  Today will catalog the exchange between them.

Dad wrote back…

Thanks for the invite, Robert. I am not interested at all in bible study or in what you believe. I am interested in what evidence you have for a god—other than what the bible says because we all know it is not accurate. Hope you and Robin are well and life is good.

Robert responded…

I am going to go out on a huge limb John, and be very presumptious. I will bet that you see the whole Bible as a giant contridiction. I did also, until someone showed me why. It is simple. There was a change of program at the cross. Just for the sake of research, take the books of Genisis through John and study the prophesy and the promises and all of that pretty tough to understand scripture, then, match that up with the Books of Hebrews through Revelation. It all makes pretty good sense,        until someone showed me why. It is simple. There was a change of program at the cross. Just for the sake of research, take the books of Genisis through John and study the prophesy and the promises and all of that pretty tough to understand scripture, then, match that up with the Books of Hebrews through Revelation. It all makes pretty good sense, chronologically and spiritually speaking. Now add in the books of Romans through Philemon. I bet you will get confused again, seeing as how none of it lines up. I would be sceptical as well. Here is the fundimental difference, John. The formentioned books including the old testimant, are writen specifically to the nation of Isreal (Jacob)- this is an entanglement of oridnances, laws, and promises for that group of people. The Apostle Paul clearly identifies many, many differences in his message, contained in Romans through Philemon. Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, which he clearly states in He points out the differences in fact, and warns the people to watch out for the same religious behavior that made Christ necessary i the fist place. John I am honestly not trying to insult your intellegence. I am just trying to help. As for proof of God, I cannot help but reccommend the study of Romans through Philemon out of a King James Bible. I know I must sound redundant at this point, but the answers are honestly there. I was an athiest at one point in my life, and I was seeking the answers to creation, life, death, etc. John, I am not trying put what I believe on you. Yes I believe what the Bible says is the word of God. My beliefs cannot save me or anyone. That is up to the power of God. I simply have found the truth in that, I don’t have to bee right or wrong, I just have to believe that God is right. I have nothing against anyone, because I am in the same boat as they are spiritually. So many demoninational churches try to condemn people for not getting with their program. If I were to go along with that, knowing what I know about how God views our fleshly bodies, I would have to retort that your program is wretched, Ref: Romans 7:24, or I would have to say your program is vile, Ref: Phillipians 3:19-21. Christ didn’t do what he did so we would all blindly go around persecuting and blaming one another for this or that. He did what he did so we would have peace to dwell and be amongst each other assured that he died for our sins, and that if we believe in God and what he did throught the blood of his son, we will see that we are all the same, and can do so. Through ignorance to that rightousness and grace God offered, man has perverted that simple truth. All God wants, and has wanted from the beginning, is for mankind to accept his word and not try to establish things our own way…..which as you can see will never happen. That deems Christ necessary, not to condemn us, but to free us.

Look all around at the beauty of so many things on this Earth, at the beauty of the human body in all its compexities, and the physical world we are in now, just look at it John, and please tell me how there isn’t a God. I don’t believe that you can….

Romans 8:18 says “For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us.

Dad wrote back…

“Look all around at the beauty of so many things on this Earth, at the beauty of the human body in all its compexities, and the physical world we are in now, just look at it John, and please tell me how there isn’t a God”.. Okay. Physical forces and natural laws working on matter and energy for the physical world, evolution for the human body. Your turn: outside of the bible –which is the bible saying the bible is true—provide me one piece of evidence for your god.

You make a big schism between the NT and the OT, but it is the same god. Genesis is the same creation story. You don’t get to pawn off all of the inconsistencies based on Paul and Moses, for instance (again) NOah’s worldwide flood DID NOT HAPPEN. We have uninterrupted written records from Egypt and Chinese dynasties when they were supposed to be at the bottom of the flood.

I have as little interest in bible study as you have in Koran study or Bhagavad Vida study.

Part II at noon EST.

 

  • Richard

    Your dad rocks like basalt.

  • http://www.atheist-faq.com Jasper T

    Good gods. Are paragraphs a sin too?

  • TV200

    Desperation is a stinky cologne.

    So desperate to get their book to make any sort of sense at all.

  • physicsphdstu

    Your dad is awesome!
    FY(H)I It is Bhagavad Gita and the more appropriate Hindu equivalent for the Bible and the Quran would probably be the Upanishads.(As the gita does not contain rules, rituals, origin stories, etc )

    • John Eberhard

      You’re right. Thank you.

      • RenDP

        Well done, Mr. Eberhardt. I see the apple didn’t fall far from the tree! Both you and JT are awesome.

  • IslandBrewer

    So, is their idea that the longer their argument, the more convincing it is? I can’t help picturing some believer saying “more words! If I just add more words, they’ll turn to Christ! I’ll wear them down, yet!”

  • RhubarbTheBear

    It would be convenient to assume that this guy simply isn’t up to speed with the arguments. But it’s also possible that he’s gone the way of Hovind and Cameron and is simply now saying “Oh, you’re atheist? Let’s just cut through all your noise and ignore your arguments because I won’t be swayed by the words of Satan. You need to repent and turn to Christ. Now.”

    I can see how you’d lose patience with this kind of thing.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lezkimo suzysalaksartok

    Dude needs to learn how paragraphs work.

    “As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one: (11 ) there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” This is a beautiful thing JT. This tells us to stop worrying about trying to be a good person, and just except that the blood of Christ was sufficient.”

    So don’t worry about trying to be a good person…just know that when you’re a dick, Jesus loves and forgives you?

    “All God wants, and has wanted from the beginning, is for mankind to accept his word and not try to establish things our own way…..which as you can see will never happen.”

    Wait, I thought he wanted us to have free will, and not be robuts? And maybe if God wanted for mankind to accept his word, he might have tried to back it up with something tangible?

    So for religious apologist bingo, we got “Im not trying to force my beliefs on you…now REPENT!!!”, “I used to be an atheist”, “Look at the beautiful trees!”, “COMPLEXITY!!”, “No one who reads the bible gets it right…except me”, “Circular reasoning is circular”, and “Why are you so angry at God?”

  • Russell P.

    Your dad is doing it right by me. This guy is high on his play world and your dad is giving him some strong coffee. Hope he wakes up.

  • http://iamaperture.wordpress.com Zinc Avenger

    So the incoherence of the Bible is an argument in favor of its. Awesome Perfectionness?

  • Gregory in Seattle

    I like asking, “Which god, out of the dozens in active use today, and why that one over any other?” When they start quoting the Bible, I start quoting the Enuma Elish, the Pali Canon and Hesiod’s Theogeny: scriptures significantly older than the Bible. If I’m in a particularly playful mood, I will explain how Paul Bunyan raised the Great Teton Mountains, carved the Grand Canyon and cleared the Great Plains, or maybe talk about Hogwarts…. Hey, one set of books, another set of books.

    It is amusing when smoke erupts from their ears and their heads start to spin.

  • Rory

    These people are so tiresome. If you tried to sell them a car with the quality of evidence with which they try to sell their religion, they’d laugh in your face. Yet somehow once faith is invoked there’s no critical consideration whatsoever, even though you’re expected to greatly alter your worldview and behavior.

  • Besomyka

    Yeah, the mental conflict between stating that everyone gets it wrong and that’s why there are so many denominations combined with his strong conviction that his personal (or small group?) interpretation of scripture is the real Truth boggles my mind.

    I imagine he has a blind spot there, but he should wake up to it: there are so many denominations because everyone does what you are doing, and they all come to slightly different conclusions.

    There is no deep truth to be found in the bible beyond what you bring to it YOURSELF. You see what it is that you seek, you find justification for the answers to the questions you already have.

    The Bible is a mirror.

  • IslandBrewer

    JT, When I grow up, I want to be like your Dad.

  • tcsf
  • christophburschka

    I did also, until someone showed me why. It is simple. There was a change of program at the cross. Just for the sake of research, take the books of Genisis through John and study the prophesy and the promises and all of that pretty tough to understand scripture, then, match that up with the Books of Hebrews through Revelation. It all makes pretty good sense, until someone showed me why. It is simple. There was a change of program at the cross. Just for the sake of research, take the books of Genisis through John and study the prophesy and the promises and all of that pretty tough to understand scripture, then, match that up with the Books of Hebrews through Revelation. It all makes pretty good sense, chronologically and spiritually speaking.

    It doesn’t make more sense by repetition.

  • kagekiri

    Yet another Christian saying how loving and inclusive the New Testament is.

    Guess he missed the part where Paul says to exile the outwardly immoral from the church (1 Corinthians 5), and that atheists and homosexuals are purposefully rebelling against God and are thus cursed with all sorts of evil desires (Romans 1) and are therefore not to be trusted.

    Or how Jesus says he came to fulfill the law, not abolish it (note that he doesn’t say to stop stoning adulterous women, he just stops one stoning).

    Man, demolishing these people from with just their own crappy holy book’s contents is too easy. Throw in evidence, and it’s just sad.

  • Anonymous

    #16 kagekiri. The passage about (not) stoning the adulterous woman was one of my favorites (because women don’t usually get shown that much mercy and Jesus’ response was quite clever and witty); alas, it is missing from some early manuscripts. Apparently, our version of the bible is not as inerrant as some claim.
    What does Robert who says righteousness and good deeds don’t matter make of Jesus’ “sheep and goat” passage (Matthew 25: 31-46?

    Matthew 25:41-46 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”

    • tubi

      Exactly! My wife’s family are all Lutheran, and one week their pastor had a whole lecture on this passage. Her (!) takeaway was that we need to treat the less fortunate better than we do, because Jesus thinks we should, or something like that, but my response, muttered under my breath was, “What about Luther’s doctrine of sole fides? Does this mean that faith alone is insufficient? If I had faith, but was a dick to a poor person, do I go to hell?”

      What a crock.


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