Dan couldn't let it go.

After reading through dad’s soft, emotionless backhand earlier, I was reminded of a line from First Blood: “Don’t push it or I’ll give you a war you won’t believe.  Let it go.”

But Dan couldn’t let it go.

@John -If you would have took the time to look at the link you provided it is accurate in all parts. The unborn takes on features long before 12 weeks. If you had took time to actually look at the photos this is close to the 9 week old unborn. Although you did not address and answer my question I assume you would have no problem with abortion of unborn at this time frame of pregnancy. The photo is to show all ,what an unborn baby looks like at 12 weeks. That is what I did. We had a discussion back around Aug. 15th which I told you of this photo on my page which you said you would like to see. This was not to taunt you ,I re-posted for you never replied to the picture or my original question.It does not look like a “cluster of cells” as what you described abortions looked like in our other discussion. After seeing the picture ,my question was would you have a problem with aborting this stage of pregnancy??? Without throwing back all the ugly words one at a time. I will say for you to have the views that you are so proud of I feel you are far more deserving of the ugly words you spew out of your mouth. The ugly words seem from my view point to come from a very dark place deep within your soul. While not going as far to say it myself, a quote from Mr. T seems to come to mind while thinking of a reply to you. I’m sure your smart enough to google or ask someone about Mr.T ‘s famous quotes . You are about the lowest of low to be so proud and so wrong. So wrong I would not know where to start.You will not understand ,but I hope I’m not in line behind you when we get to the pearly gates for St. Peter may have a lot of questions for you.In many of your other posts you have made fun of Christians and name called those that pray & believe in God. You have even used quotes of the Bible to twist Gods word. I feel it is only right to tell you that the Bible strongly warns against doing so. Just sayin! I have a totally opposite view of life and my children and their births and an opposite view of God and for that I’m proud !

Dan fired another one out right afterward.

John in your above message to me one line you wrote stands out.
The line you said- “Do whatever emotions got stirred for me when my babies took a dump give me a right to direct what you do with your colon?” This would make some think by reading this that you have some real serious issues. Just wondering have you ever been psychiatric evaluated or on psychiatric medication or are you off them now?

Well, Dan called down the thunder and he got it.

“We had a discussion back around Aug. 15th which I told you of this photo on my page which you said you would like to see.’ No, Dan. That is not true. I told you at the time I hadn’t gone to your site and I wasn’t interested in seeing your photo.

But, you wouldn’t let it go at that. As I told you before, when you push me, I will push back.

“This was not to taunt you …” I don’t believe you. I made it quite clear that I wasn’t interested.

“…I re-posted for you never replied to the picture” I told you I wasn’t interested in looking at your picture. One of the reasons was because 88% of abortions are done before 8 weeks. Only 7% of abortions are done in the 12 week area……why would you post a “picture” of a 12 week fetus when it is not representative of most abortions, but only of a small percentage? I’ll tell you why: to mislead. Because your zeal makes you think you can mislead and lie. Because your certainty of your own infallible rightness lets you believe the end justifies the means, and that truth and accuracy don’t matter.

“…. or my original question.” Newsflash, Dan….I’m not your answer boy. Just because you choose to ask a question doesn’t obligate me to answer it.

“-If you would have took the time to look at the link you provided it is accurate in all parts.” NO, Dan, it isn’t. The features and limbs are much more refined than at that age and real fetuses have umbilical cords.
Isn’t this where you admit your picture of a fetus isn’t a picture of a fetus, but instead is a picture of a sculpture?

“It does not look like a “cluster of cells” as what you described abortions looked like in our other discussion.” There are stages where embryos look like a cluster of cells. As I mentioned before, there are stages where you can’t differentiate it from the period at the end of this sentence.

“If you had took time to actually look at the photos this is close to the 9 week old unborn.” Bullshit, Dan. Here is a picture of a 9 week old fetus:

http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-9-weeks

Please don’t consistently lie and then pretend to the moral high ground. That is hypocrisy.

“The ugly words seem from my view point to come from a very dark place deep within your soul.” Of course they do, Dan. I suspect that is true of everyone who doesn’t buy what you are selling. But, I’ll tell you what: I don’t lie, and I’m not so gullible that I can’t tell that a photo of an embryo without an umbilical cord isn’t a photo of an embryo at all.

“You are about the lowest of low to be so proud and so wrong.” That is a pretty funny joke coming from someone whose hubris makes him think he has the right to make decisions for every woman about how she will treat her own body. You’re the one who is proud and wrong,Dan. You have no right to make any woman’s medical decisions. None.

“You will not understand ,but I hope I’m not in line behind you when we get to the pearly gates for St. Peter may have a lot of questions for you.” Your 2,000 year old bronze age mythology intimidates me about as much as Allah or Odin intimidate you. Threatening an atheist with bronze age mythology is just plain silly.

“You have even used quotes of the Bible to twist Gods word.” You would be positive of this because out of the over 33,000 sects of christianity, Dan’s preferred version is the one that has it all dead right. You should read what the Babble has to say about abortion and fetuses. American evangelicals, meanwhile, widely opposed the idea that life begins at conception until the 1970s, with some even advocating looser abortion laws based on their reading of the Bible before then.

“I feel it is only right to tell you that the Bible strongly warns against doing so.” That intimidates me about as much as something in the Koran or the Vedas would intimidate you.

“I have a totally opposite view of life and my children and their births and an opposite view of God and for that I’m proud!” I’m proud that I use reason and evidence instead of blindly following indoctrination.

” This would make some think by reading this that you have some real serious issues.” I can see where you would think that…I was goofy enough to use the same type of “reasoning” as you used to justify owning the body of every woman. That is enough to make one think a person has “some real serious issues”.

Again, Dan couldn’t let it go.  After just getting pummeled and being shown that he has neither evidence, facts, logic, nor reason with which to support his side of the issue, like a boxer on the ropes with his last gasp Dan takes a wild roundhouse swing: “I’ll pray for you!”

Dan does so as it is always done; with condescending arrogance designed to make you feel inferior that says, “Not only am I right and you are wrong, but I am a better person than you” or “You obviously can’t take care of (fill in the blank) yourself, and God won’t help you on his own, so I’ll ask since he listens to me more.”  It is a Christian’s passive-aggressive way (or a passive-aggressive Christian’s way) of putting you down.  For people who think prayer is beautiful, this is so frequently the best light believers can think of in which to display prayer to the godless.

John you are truly a piece of work. Android at best. To not know life even if you see it in your own links showing proof of the unborn already taking the human form (much more than cluster of cells)you TRY to prove me wrong with.Your words & view of God and Christians is pure “evil”. Reading your posts makes me feel the evil.To remove the evil I feel from reading your words, I will read a few verses of the Bible and pray tonight and hope that someday you find God before it’s to late.

When some Christian is informing you how wretched you are before staring you in the face to say “But I’ll pray for you,” how do you react?  This is how dad reacted…

When the best you can do is to call me names, use mythological threats, and offer gratuitous insults, it is obvious you have an indefensible position…otherwise, you would defend it.

“I will read a few verses of the Bible and pray tonight and hope that someday you find God before it’s to late.” I will read a chapter of Harry Potter, sleep peacefully and well, and will rub my lucky rabbits foot for you in return for your hope for me,while hoping you someday shake the shackles of your brainwashed indoctrination.

You seem to have a real hang up with my phrase “cluster of cells”. You must be in favor of embryonic stem cell research because the embryonic stem cells look exactly like a “cluster of cells” because….well, that is exactly what they are. Right?

Here are photos of fetal development. Anything up to 4 weeks resembles a cluster of cells. http://www.ehd.org/prenatal-images-index.php

55% of abortions are younger than 7 weeks. Another 22% are at 7-8 weeks. That is 77%. However, in your drive to mislead, you post a picture of a sculpture–not a fetus— that is much more defined than at 12 weeks, where only 7% of the abortions actually occur.

http://www.azrtl.org/factsheets/Statistics%20-%20usa_stats.pdf

That kind of makes you an end justifies the means liar, Dan.

Of course, there are abortion pills available. Okay with you if they are taken, oh, say…..2 weeks after conception, when the fetus looks like nothing but a cluster of cells? See http://www.ehd.org/prenatal-images-index.php

I’m curious, Dan….What excuse do you use for not working hard to promote broad based sex education and readily available free contraception to decrease unplanned pregnancies in the first place?  If you are really so against abortions, isn’t this an effective way to decrease them?  If you are really pro-life, you don’t want women dying from back room abortions do you? Surely you aren’t so blind as to not realize if abortion is illegal that is what will happen.

What gives you the right to make personal medical decisions for every woman?

“To not know life even if you see it…” I damn sure know it when it walks around wearing a dress. Too bad you don’t. Too bad you think the rights of the developing are more important than the rights of the developed.

By the way, it is time you admitted your photo of a “baby” is not a photo of a baby. It is not a photo of a fetus. It is a photo of a sculpture that was done to represent an inaccurate idea of what a fetus looks like at 12 weeks. It was done by the sculptor and spread by people like you to evoke an emotional response in lieu of rational discussion of the issue and seeking a variety of ways to decrease the incidence of abortion. Again: this isn’t about abortion, because you aren’t doing the obvious simple,easy, and EFFECTIVE things to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place. It is about control and making sure everyone is subjected to your narrowminded version of “god’s will”.

Will it change Dan?  Nah.  Not immediately, anyway.  But there are onlookers, and I think most of them will know on some level, even if they love the bible, that Dan is getting the ever-loving shit kicked out of him here, not because he’s a poor debater, but because his position is indefensible and dishonest.

And given some time, I’ll bet Dan will know it too.

  • mythbri

    I pity the fool who almost-but-not-quite quotes Mr. T while trying to tell women what to do with their bodies.

  • http://www.facebook.com/park.james.102 parkjames

    Your father has much more patience than I do.

  • http://nigelthebold.com/ nigelTheBold, Venomous Demonic Hater

    According to the whole “pro-life” logic, we should be doing everything to save lives. That would mean:

    1. Mandatory blood donations from everyone

    2. Automatic harvesting of organs after death

    3. Mandatory donation of a viable kidney to save the life of someone with kidney failure

    Mandatory blood and organ donation seems a no-brainer, if they were really “pro-life.” An argument could be made against harvesting redundant organs from living folks, but only just barely.

    I wonder if Dan regularly gives blood?

    • Daniel Schealler

      Note to self:

      It’s been a while since I last donated blood.

      Need to get onto that.

      (Note: I’m a different Dan to the one in the OP)

    • IslandBrewer

      People can live with only one kidney and a little bit of their liver (it grows back), you know.

      Why wait post mortem for mandatory organ donations?

  • fastlane

    I’m going to re-iterate the wish that your parental units would be willing to take over the FtB part of your blog, for even occasional posts.

  • doctorburger

    “…John you are truly a piece of work. Android at best. ..”

    Woah there. Let’s not sully the good name of Androids. I recall Commander Data being quite the logical being.

    • http://www.nobelief.net Jasper of Maine (I feel safe and welcome at FTB)

      Good luck getting the theist to admit to lying/manipulation. Once you do that, you can start working on developing FTL drives.

      • http://www.nobelief.net Jasper of Maine (I feel safe and welcome at FTB)

        Whoops. I was going to reply with a dumb comment to you, but decided to post a generalize dumb comment without de-selecting your post.

  • karmakin

    I wonder if that person actually has any concept of what they’re saying, or if it’s all a game to them.

    My guess is the later, to be honest.

  • Alverant

    Dan needs to listen to Mark Twain, “Never miss a good opportunity to shut up.”

    It’s a quote all of us need to remember from time to time.

  • eric

    Dan:

    To not know life even if you see it in your own links showing proof of the unborn already taking the human form (much more than cluster of cells)

    This makes no sense at all. Everyone on both sides of the abortion debate understands that (1) human embryos are alive, and (2) they take on human form through the development process. Its just silly to think otherwise. To get from fertilized egg to baby the embryo has to get more baby-like and less egg-like over time. This is not a point of either policy or scientific debate, and if Dan thinks it is, he is greatly misinformed. Pro-choicers are not pro-choice due to a misunderstanding of development. Quite the reverse, in fact; many are pro-choice because they do understand the gradual, incremental, nature of it.

  • Randomfactor

    But there are onlookers

    That’s why I never hesitate to set someone straight who obviously is incapable of grasping the truth. Others reading MIGHT be so capable.

  • Randomfactor

    (1) human embryos are alive,

    So are sperm cells.

    • Daniel Schealler

      So are the epithelial cells on the surface of the human eye – a fraction of which are destroyed every time we blink.

      If living human cells cannot be permitted to die, Dan will need to stop blinking. He’ll need to keep his eyes closed at all times.

      I wonder if he’ll notice the difference.

      JAZZ HANDS!

  • ACN

    Why is it that people like this are so poor at expressing themselves? I’ve waded through so many of these poorly written, poorly thought out, walls of text (GOOGLING MR. T QUOTES? REALLY??) that at this point I really can’t do much other than laugh and enjoy the “squeaky-squeaky” of the chewtoy.

  • http://nigelthebold.com/ nigelTheBold, Venomous Demonic Hater

    eric:

    Pro-choicers are not pro-choice due to a misunderstanding of development.

    Anti-abortion folks are anti-abortion folks due to a misunderstanding of development: if it looks like a baby, then it’s a baby. That’s why the sculpture looks like a wee baby — to make you say, “Awwww, ain’t that cute? He’s got his daddy’s brains!”

    That, of course, deflects the actual issues. First, does one person have the right to use another person to live? Is it moral to demand a sacrifice of one person to keep another person alive?

    It amuses me (in a rather angry way) that the same ones who demand sacrifices from women on the grounds of “choosing life” are the same ones who are vehemently opposed to socialized medicine. It seems they themselves are not willing to make sacrifices to save lives, but are more than happy to demand a far more intimate and personal sacrifice of women.

  • Joven

    Oh good, hes going off to read some pages of the bible…If he wanted, I’m sure plenty of atheists can give him some recommended reading of his book (things like bashing childrens heads against rocks, how if a man causes a woman a miscarriage its just like 10 sheckles or something, God ordering murders of entire villages (which presumably have some babies outside the womb, that even the most extreme pro-abortion folks would agree is a real person now…)

  • Hairy Chris, blah blah blah etc

    I get some sort of “Hammer of Thor” Norse mythological image in my head whenever I read what your dad writes.

    Fantastic!

    • Hamilton Jacobi

      Something like this?

      (“We are your overlords…”)

  • Zinc Avenger

    Being “in the right” and “virtuous” appears to trump being “factually correct” and “actually a good person” for a lot of people.

    • baal

      I wish the Bible were written by wise folks – Jesus would have said, “And let’s start by being Factually Correct. It’s not the whole of Truth but it’s better than Reciting Lies for lies are the work of my Father’s Brother.” or some thing like that. (excess formatting added for verisimilitude)

  • otrame

    Hmmm. I’m sorry if I’ve missed this in your blog posts, JT, but is your dad in a committed relationship? Because I think I am in love but I have this rule….

    Seriously, I do admire both his sense and his patience. Of course he won’t change Dan, but the more times he shows Dan is lying and the more times he himself shows that the statements he makes are the truth, the more those who are watching will ask “Why does Dan need to lie to make his points?”

  • RenDP

    Dan isn’t here to read this, so perhaps you could pass this along to him for me? According to this, inducing miscarriage is fine, and priests did this sort of thing when the man’s property got out of line (or he suspected she did). From his Holy Babble, Numbers 5:13-31 (yeah, this is LONG):

    11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
    12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man’s wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
    13
    And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
    14
    And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
    15
    Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memoria
    16
    And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
    17
    And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
    18
    And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
    19
    And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
    20
    But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
    21
    Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
    22
    And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
    23
    And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
    24
    And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
    25
    Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman’s hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
    26
    And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
    27
    And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and
    28
    And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
    29
    This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
    30
    Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
    31
    Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

    • kagekiri

      Yeah, I can’t believe I missed that verse when I was Christian and pro-life.

      Now that I’m atheist, I’m itching to bring it up with “pro-life” Christians and ask them how the hell God is “pro-life” when he advocates forced sterilization and abortion of babies for their parent’s sins. They can’t even blame it on the priests or tradition; this was supposed to be a magic potion from God.

      Hell, punishing ANY kid for their parent’s sins is all the more messed up because God gave the kids to those parents by the Bible’s claims!

      And it’s not just in Numbers. God pretty much kills David and Bathsheba’s first kid for the sin of David. And that was AFTER birth.

      In the Old Testament, God commands and carries out personally various genocidal purges that kill all the fetuses and infants for their parent’s sins as collateral damage (good aim, angels!). Noah’s Ark, Moses’ plague against first-borns, all the Israelites various genocide campaigns that specifically say to kill pregnant women and children who aren’t rapable virgin girls, etc.

      In the New Testament, Jesus parents get a warning from angels to leave town because a purge is coming, but the angels don’t warn anyone else. So all of the town’s other infants get killed because Mary and Joseph (and God and his angels) are assholes.

    • http://wanderinweeta.blogspot.com Susannah

      … of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:

      This is dust from a place contaminated with the blood and guts of hundreds of sacrificed animals, the fecal droppings of frightened sheep and doves, the mud from the feet of a stream of worshippers. All aged over months or years in a hot climate.

      If any woman survived this, she must have been made of iron. And even then, if she got sick from it, and then recovered, her sickness would be proof of her infidelity, making her subject to a death sentence.

      As a Christian kid, I read this passage over and over. It made me queasy, but I had to reassure myself that God knew; that He would miraculously preserve any woman who had been faithful to the jealous husband.

      That didn’t cure the queasiness, just enabled me to put off considering it until next time.

  • jaranath

    I love the android comment. John is an evil robot because he doesn’t speak and act from his emotions, but rather with logic and rationality. This is at the core of so many differences between us and the Dans of the world…

    And JT: You are at least one-third more badass than Grendel. Anyone messing with you has to deal not only with you, but TWO ferocious parents!

  • Erista (aka Eris)

    All I can think when I see those sculptures is, “If a fetus actually looked like that at 12 weeks, women could give birth to healthy infants at 12 weeks.”

    That thing isn’t a sculpture of a 12 week old fetus; it’s a sculpture of a freaking infant.

    • Erista (aka Eris)

      Or miniature infant, I should say.

  • SamG

    I agree with your dad. I would also like to say “would have taken” WOULD HAVE TAKEN. I’m so sorry. I just wanted to yell that at my computer when I read the first couple of lines.

    I have very catholic relatives and they take that guys view. My best response (since I am horrid at debate and am glad both you and your father are not horrid) is ‘ah, we’ll never agree as I think the person already here takes precedence’. That’s the best I could do.

    Keep up the good fight.

  • Scott L.

    Wow. Way to not address any of the raised points Dan. Bravo sir!

  • IslandBrewer

    Dear JT,

    I love your Dad and am totally going to marry him.

  • Rieux

    The Mr. T reference was the best part.

    I’ve had silly quotes thrown at me in online (a)theological dust-ups, but sage lines from the “I pity the fool” guy? High-larious.

    It is amusing when he prank calls towing companies, though.

  • http://www.ranum.com Marcus Ranum

    According to the whole “pro-life” logic, we should be doing everything to save lives.

    Yay! Socialized medicine!!!!

    Uh, right?


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