Dan takes the bottle of crazy and downs the whole thing.

And along we go.  Another commenter, Kevin, agreeing with my dad, entered the thread suggesting that in order to avoid more abortions, as Dan claims to want, that we should pass out birth control like Skittles.

Dan didn’t like that idea.

I disagree with passing out birth control pills like skittles to children (under 18) .The problem is moral decay in this country. People using abortion as birth control instead of being taught right from wrong at a young age . If more people read the Bible went to church and taught morals to their children many unwanted pregnancies could be avoided. The Christian family unit needs to be place in each home and morals developed from a young age.The anti-religious left teaching children that sex is OK and abortion is OK because it is legal is part of the problem of moral decay in America. Again I will not turn my back on my belief of God. I will not sit quiet and allow a few anti-religious groups change laws and promote their agenda with no one standing up to them.As a Christian I will not sit back quietly and negotiate birth control to children as a way out or allow a few anti-God people change laws to promote a further decline in our morals and sink deeper as a nation into sin. To promote sex education that teaches that sex is OK for young children and passing out condoms to teenagers and birth control pills to teenage girls is part of the moral decay and wrong. Education to teenagers needs to be done alright to teach morals to those that don’t have any taught at home. Murder of the baby is not a solution to any ones problem.It is a brawl as Kevin stated that I’m willing to take to defend my belief that abortion is wrong. As a Christian I will stand up for the unborn & vote for leaders that will bring morals back to this country . You can not choose just to not believe in God,by doing so you accept Satan.Without God you open yourself up to satan to take control of your life and soul. Again John you loose!

Look at this man.  Whether you’re an atheist or a Christian, take a good look at him and ask yourself if his faith has helped him to be better, has been meaningless, or has contributed to this by assuring Dan that god has his back regardless of where the evidence lies.  The answer could not be more obvious.  No person holds a religious faith that is friendly to the evidence.  Combine it with certainty and sometimes you get Dan.  Sometimes you get the Taliban.

Faith is a bad thing.  It produces unreasonable people.

Dad continued.

Well, there you go Kevin. Practical and workable solutions to decreasing abortions mean nothing to the morality police who insist on forcing their narrow minded beliefs down everyone’s throat. This is a great example of what the Gnus aretalking about and are afraid of. Total disregard for the rights of others and the default solution to everything is their god and the Babble…..especially their narrow and preferred view of them.

Dan says “The problem is moral decay in this country”, and his solution to that is to make everyone kowtow to his definition of what is moral, with absolutely no regard to constitutional rights or the separation of church and state.

That kind of self-righteous certainty and assumption of the right to impose it on others is un-American. It is the ranting of the Christian Taliban.
I repeat my earlier statement, and thank Dan for verifying it as accurate: “If, instead, you want to force your narrow minded moral views on to other people by using the government and the law as a cudgel, then you do……exactly what you are doing. Let’s don’t kid ourselves this is about abortion: this is about forcing your screwed up religious need to punish sex and to control women onto people who don’t kowtow to you.” If it weren’t, you wouldn’t be using such a piss poor way of stopping abortions, but instead using practical methods that have been proven to work.”

Dan you say ” If more people read the Bible went to church and taught morals to their children many unwanted pregnancies could be avoided.” I say “Bullshit!” Not that it matters to you, Dan, because it is factual information, but here is why:

A new Gallup poll of 350,000 Americans breaks down the importance of religion on a state by state basis. The question asked was whether religion was an important part of their daily lives.The top 4 most religious states were Mississippi (85%), Alabama (82%), South Carolina (80%), and Tennessee (79%). Arkansas was 6th with 78%. The top 4 least religious states were Vermont (42%), New Hampshire (46%), Maine (48%), and Massachusetts (48%). In fact, those were the only four that were below 50% in saying that religion was important in their daily lives.

Mississippi, Alabama and Tennessee all rank among the 11 highest states for rates of divorce with rates from 5.7 to 6.6 per 1000; South Carolina is 19th with a rate of 4.2. Arkansas made # 50 with 7.1, beaten only by Nevada.

Massachusetts had the lowest divorce rate in the nation at 2.4 per 1000, Maine 4.4, New Hampshire 4.4, and Vermont 4.0.

How about out of wedlock births? The most recent data I could find easily shows for the most religious states:

Mississippi: 45.5%
South Carolina: 38.7%
Tennessee: 34.9%
Alabama: 34.1%

And the least religious states:

New Hampshire: 24.1%
Massachusetts: 26.1%
Vermont: 28%
Maine: 30.6%

And finally, teen pregnancy, where all of the most religious states are in the top 10:

Mississippi: 20.9%
Alabama: 17.1%
South Carolina: 16.0%
Tennessee: 15.9%

And all of the least religious states are in the bottom 10:

Massachusetts 7.2%
New Hampshire 7.7%
Vermont 7.9%
Maine 9.8%

Does this prove that religion causes those bad things? No. But it does make a pretty strong case against the constant claims of the religious right that religion is the answer to these problems. In the context of this discussion, the teen pregnancy numbers should be of specific interest to you.

Recall that Dan wanted this.  Dan begged for this even when dad was turning the other cheek.  This is why I like debating religious people; they’re so sure god has they’re back that they’ll go to battle with a toothpick thinking they’re invincible.

And this is what Dan has been reduced to…

Your numbers and percentile to states could be used to paint whatever you want without taking into account poverty levels in those states with the higher rate of unwed or abortion percent. Again to play the blame game on religion is what you do. Economic factors in those states would also have to be taken into account. You trying to claim it is religion that causes this problem is wrong again and proves that you, while android by nature think that twisting facts & numbers without all variables of race ,economic factors,and education level,does not make you right.You seem to have left those variables all out. Race seems to change all polls taken being that Blacks have larger % of unwed births followed by Latinos then whites. John you being a fact man it seems your point is flawed by not including these other variables into your states claim.The numbers do not also prove that those pregnancies all were from religious homes or divorce was from all religious couples.

Dad responded.

Why, Dan, you are foaming at the mouth so hard it is messing up your reading comprehension. How could you possibly have missed what I said at the bottom: “Does this prove that religion causes those bad things? No. But it does make a pretty strong case against the constant claims of the religious right that religion is the answer to these problems”

Yet you say, “Again to play the blame game on religion is what you do.”

Facts, evidence, and what is actually said doesn’t matter at all to you. You are in full fledged “Christian victim” mode and all you can do is build straw men to attack, evade solution seeking, and rant about why America should be a theocracy headed by your version of the Christian Taliban. And name call and insult me with your good Christian love, of course.

You say “The numbers do not also prove that those pregnancies all were from religious homes or divorce was from all religious couples.” Another straw man you created. I never claimed that it did. All I claimed was “it does make a pretty strong case against the constant claims of the religious right that religion is the answer to these problems”. I didn’t say religion was the cause…but you did say religion was the solution. These numbers show you are likely wrong.

Dan, I read your statement “If more people read the Bible went to church and taught morals to their children many unwanted pregnancies could be avoided.” I don’t agree, but even if it were true, So what? Are you suggesting the only way to prevent unwanted pregnancies is to force people to read the bible and go to church? If not, then what do you suggest be done to prevent unwanted pregnancies? If yes, how do you accomplish that exactly by any means other than using the government as a proselytizing and enforcement arm for your religion?

Dan, still frothing, can’t get away from it.  To an extent, I sympathize.  I, too, am passionate about my ideas, and about making the world a better place.  But when you uncouple that from a passion to evaluate evidence and a willingness to accept that sometimes you will be wrong, you wind up only caring that your present beliefs are defended to the death so you can be “right.”  This makes a case for sympathy out of what could’ve been admirable passion.

You did contradict yourself in your question at the bottom of your rant above. Your entire rant was to paint it all religious. You out smart yourself. You only see what you want to see in my posts and always leave out and never include anything that would prove you flawed. You did not address the variables I mentioned that would flaw your self proclaimed right results.

You are the one with the attacks against Christians and I for one will never “kowtow” to you or your anti-God campaign or polish your ego as your atheist friends do to you and each other.You are wrong in your belief of anti-God views.You are wrong on your beliefs of Christians.You are wrong about abortion and you and other atheist will all be wrong in the end. I will continue to stand up for my faith and my God. Many more are beginning to also stand up and confront anti-God groups and their agenda. In the end you and your atheist friends all loose. To be as smart as you claim to be, and so lacking with all that knowledge of facts,numbers,& books you can’t understand the easiest gift to man from God.That is sad for you. It is so easy to accept God into your life and become saved . To view life as a miracle from God instead of have a bitter view as you do.

Father has decided that he’s done everything he can with this, I reckon.  Most people will see what has become of Dan and, if they’re honest, will conclude that faith helped get him to this point.

My father’s last.

You said “You did contradict yourself in your question at the bottom of your rant above. Your entire rant was to paint it all religious.”

I actually provided you the exact quotes of what we both said. In spite of that, you ignore what was actually said, and insist that whatever fantasy you have running in your head is real instead of the black letters on the white screen.

You are delusional.

You have been shown but cannot admit your photo is not of either a baby or a fetus but is of a sculpture….a doll. I have provided links to photos and drawings of fetal development for you, yet you still insist the resin doll in your picture is representative of a 9 week old fetus. It isn’t. You don’t believe the evidence of your own eyes, or you didn’t bother to look because you can’t admit you are wrong.

You are delusional.

And you are raving.

What a sad man.  And all he’d have to do is let go of faith.

  • slc1

    Shorter Dan the schmuck: my mind is made up, the facts are irrelevant.

  • wholething

    Dan said it, God believes it, that settles it.

    • http://subjunctivemorality.wordpress.com Collin

      God doesn’t believe in statistics.

      • Jet

        God Hates Facts!

  • Akira MacKenzie

    Dan ranted:

    To promote sex education that teaches that sex is OK for young children and passing out condoms to teenagers and birth control pills to teenage girls is part of the moral decay and wrong.

    See… as I suspected. It’s all about the evil, hedonistic, sex.

    • Rory

      Speaking from my own experience, 90% of the time that somebody is complaining about other people having sex, it’s because the complainer wants to be, but can’t. You’ve heard of SIWOTI (someone is wrong on the internet)? This is SEIHSAIN (someone else is having sex and I’m not). In my experience this also explains the fast majority of slut-shaming, though my experience is by no means representative of larger trends.

      • http://researchtobedone.wordpress.com researchtobedone

        “though my experience is by no means representative of larger trends.”

        Woo, verbal expression of error bars! A tip of the hat to you!

  • Rory

    Is it okay to call that a rhetorical curb-stomp?

  • http://www.nobelief.net Jasper of Maine (I feel safe and welcome at FTB)

    Massachusetts had the lowest divorce rate in the nation at 2.4 per 1000, Maine 4.4, New Hampshire 4.4, and Vermont 4.0.

    The heck is it with New England?

  • davidjordan

    I would assume that Dan believes that we were all created perfectly in the eyes of his god. I do not understand what all the fuss is about in the person getting pregnant before they are 18 (and Married to a Good Christian White Man). If we WERE created perfectly by some deity, wouldn’t the fact that we can become pregnant early on in our teens be a feature not a bug? Wouldn’t we be taught to celebrate those God Given hormones that begin to kick in in our early teens by slapping on a rubber and going nuts?

    I’ve never understood the religious mind. I never will.

  • Loqi

    “…with all that knowledge of facts, numbers, & books, you can’t understand…”

    Well, there you have it. Once you know the facts, you stop being able to understand the whole god thing. For some reason, Dan thinks this is a bad thing.

  • DaveL

    Dan,

    In parts of the Islamic world, they bury girls up to the waist and stone them to death for having premarital sex. It turns out they haven’t succeeded in eliminating premarital sex from their society – they’ve just successfully introduced executing young girls by stoning.

    Is that your idea of a better society?

    • http://www.nobelief.net Jasper of Maine (I feel safe and welcome at FTB)

      Don’t give him any ideas

  • http://www.nobelief.net Jasper of Maine (I feel safe and welcome at FTB)

    Sex ed works very well if done correctly. With an added bonus, we don’t need to appeal to fantasy to get good results!

    • sqlrob

      Appealing to fantasy works great.

      Oh. wait. sex ed. nm.

  • anteprepro

    Oh noez! It doesn’t control for poverty! That’s a Big Deal because religiosity and poverty are completely independent variables!

    Oh…
    Wait…
    Nevermind….

  • http://Www.ranum.com Marcus Ranum

    I want one of those biblical marriages like Abraham had.

  • eric

    Evangelical public policy distilled into 20 words:

    If every state adopts the policies of Mississippi, they will end up with the prosperity of New Hampshire. Its magic!

  • Lurker111

    And besides, everyone knows having Skittles around is dangerous.

  • http://teethofthebuzzsaw.blogspot.com Buzz Saw

    I’ll give Dan a little bit of credit (only a very, very small bit) when he says, “Economic factors in those states would also have to be taken into account.”

    I have no argument with that! The problem is that Dan’s solution of force the Jesus on everyone wouldn’t seem to fix that problem. …Or maybe he thinks it does, but then we can (once again) point to the polls on religiosity. Why does this state with all these good ole Christians even have economic problems?

    Oh, right, it would appear to be the fault of the blacks and latin@s. Yeah…

    • Joven

      Well, its irrelevant. Since those are the most religious states, those are the places that right now are teaching abstinence only “education”, etc etc. If it was going to work anywhere, it would need to work there…and it doesn’t.

      And why SHOULD it matter anyway? How much does it cost to stay abstinent until marriage? (I would think it costs a person less money if they aren’t trying to get laid all the time…) Is he saying poverty=immorality, and Christ is just too powerless to make a dent in people’s lives if they’re too poor? Didn’t Jesus push for not caring about money, being poor is good, cast away earthly possessions etc etc…

      Shouldn’t the poor areas, where they’re steeped in religion and take it super seriously, be where the religious arguments and upbringing should work BEST?

  • DaveL

    Your numbers and percentile to states could be used to paint whatever you want without taking into account poverty levels in those states with the higher rate of unwed or abortion percent.

    Well, what do you think happens when we tell kids that birth control is wrong and just not to have sex until they’re married? I’ll give you a hint: abstinence until marriage isn’t it. No, they maybe delay having premarital sex for about a year or two on average, but then they start having sex unprotected. So you end up with more unplanned pregnancies to unwed teenage girls. Since you want abortion off the table as well, these pregnant girls become unwed teenage mothers. Which causes them to abandon their education. Which steers them into a life of poverty, and sets their children up to repeat the cycle. Maybe some of them get married young because it’s been drilled into them it’s the “right thing to do.” Marrying young happens to be one of the greatest predictors of divorce there is.

    So yes, these highly religious areas with high rates of teen pregnancy and divorce also tend to have high rates of poverty and low levels of educational attainment. That’s because your religion’s approach to sexual mores contributes to all three.

  • Ben B

    It’s times like these that I’m disappointed there is no after-life so that people like Dan will never get to see how wrong they are, as they think we eventually will.

  • Zed

    Dan said

    Again John you loose!

    OH NO! JOHN IS ON THE LOOSE! LOCK YOUR DOORS, CURTAIN YOUR WINDOWS, HE HAS ESCAPED AND IS ON THE LOOSE!

  • Amber from the buckle of the Bible Belt

    I am a Christian. I’m not ashamed of that. I am staying abstinent until marriage. Say what you want. I am pro-life (oh no!!).
    Dan is an idiot. Some of us that don’t want to look like idiots see the Dans of Christendom and facepalm. However! Religious rules are not the answer, actually caring about what Christ said is the answer. Pushing Christianity on your kids can lead to all of this, yes. Sitting in a pew does not save you. Telling your daughter she will go to hell if she doesn’t marry her baby daddy (or your son if he doesn’t marry the girl he knocked up) is, yes, a good way to lead to divorce later. But if you provide a Christian household where inquiry is ok, and they LOVE Jesus instead of just fearing Hell, then they may make choices like “hey, Hebrews 13:4 says ‘the marriage bed should be kept pure.’ Virginity is valued throughout the Bible… maybe this purity thing is important to me because it’s important to Him.” and get to age 20 nowhere near having premarital sex (though opportunities may be available)
    Here’s my stance: my biological grandmother was 16 when she had my mom. She did not marry my grandfather. She did not keep my mother, but put her up for adoption to a couple that could actually take care of her better ( for which we are extremely grateful)
    I was “a surprise” i.e. the condom broke, and the pill was ineffective, as my mom was on antibiotics at the time. Thankfully, my parents had been married for three years when I was born, so no huge mess. I have absolutely no issue with birth control. I do with murdering fetuses. birth control is not foolproof (not that anyone is claiming that).
    I cannot expect people to act like Christians unless they are. I can’t force them to believe. Therefore, if you’re going to have sex, please, please do be safe. But I do believe that a fetus is a new life, and adoption is an option.
    And shouting and shaming is about the most unChristlike thing to do if someone is having sex outside of marriage (see John 4:1-26).

    • EElish

      The purity thing was important because societies with patrilineal inheritance and no methods of paternity testing mean that the only way men could ensure that their heirs were really their heirs was to exert Draconian control over female sexuality. It’s why virginity ideals have always applied much more stringently to women than to men. It’s not about morality. It’s about money and property, and men making sure that they aren’t wasting their time and resources on someone else’s child.

      Claiming that it was important to “Him” was just a convenient way to get people to fall in line.

  • Matt

    Every time a wingnut like Dan brings up the “Christian family unit”, all I can think of is the people in this article:

    http://www.alternet.org/story/153006/beating_babies_in_the_name_of_jesus_the_shady_world_of_right-wing_'discipline'_guides

    Yeah, they “developed morals” in their kids – with a rubber hose, TO DEATH. Downright Old Testament, that lot.


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