Beyond Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: Building a Post-Complementarian Church on the Word of God

Beyond Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: Building a Post-Complementarian Church on the Word of God August 27, 2015

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The following is a guest post from Jory Micah. See her bio and links below!

Well known complementarian John Piper has both egalitarians and complementarians scratching their heads in confusion. Piper is undoubtedly one of the most prominent theologians of our time, a “Goliath” if you will. I feel a bit like young David in the Old Testament taking him on, but surely if God can use David, He can use me. There is no doubt that most of us have been touched by Piper’s theological contributions whether we know it or not, but he has a blind spot concerning both manhood and womanhood and we can no longer trust him behind the wheel in this area of biblical studies.

As a woman called to ministry, I have personally experienced many “hit and runs” by Piper’s doctrines concerning a woman’s place in this world. At 18 years old, I was approached by “the cool guys” in Bible school and was told that my dream of being a leader in the Church was a sin. Looking back, I thank God for this experience as it fueled me to further my theological education. I became passionate about discovering God’s ideas for women in the Church and wrote my master’s thesis on women in leadership during the first and second centuries of the early Church using the Bible as my primary source.

Not long after I graduated seminary I experienced silent oppression. I was more educated than most of my male peers, yet they were finding jobs in the Church and I was not. I even noticed that men who had no biblical training were finding jobs, I mean good jobs in the Church, and I was teaching children. Don’t get me wrong, I love children and highly respect children’s pastors, but I never felt called to children’s ministry and although I was good at it because I am a natural born leader, I was never passionate about it. I reached a point, however, that I had to take a position as a children’s pastor because it was the only job in the Church I could get. For two years, I worked on a pastoral staff with all men, had the highest level of education out of everyone (including the lead pastor), and got paid the least. I never went into ministry to make big money, but just like everyone else who seeks higher education in their specialization, I had student loan debt and my husband and I needed a second income to maintain a fairly simple lifestyle.

I beleive that John Piper is at least partially responsible for my lack of opportunities in the Church and if he is wrong about biblical womanhood and God really does call certain females to follow in the footsteps of Old Testament leader, Deborah and New Testament leader, Junia, he will most certainly have to answer to God for oppressing His daughters and influencing thousands of men and women to do the same.

Recently John Piper received this question from one of his followers: Can a single Christian woman, who is a complementarian, become a police officer?

Piper does not give her a stern “yes” or “no,” but he does provide guidelines that would discourage most women from pursuing most jobs in our society. He writes, “To the degree that a woman’s influence over a man, guidance of a man, leadership of a man, is personal and a directive, it will generally offend a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership, and thus controvert God’s created order. To an extent, a woman’s leadership or influence may be personal and non-directive or directive and non-personal, but I don’t think we should push the limits.”

It seems that complementarian rules are getting stricter and stricter and if we continue to allow John Piper to be an authority on biblical womanhood in Jesus’ Church, it won’t be long before women are not only denied jobs in the Church, but also in society. It seems to me that this is precisely Piper’s goal and that he would be more than pleased to see all women as stay-at-home moms and housewives. While a stay-at-home mom and/or housewife can be a wonderful choice for some women, not all women get married or have children and some families depend on having a second income.

Further, many women find great joy in pursuing callings, passions, and careers outside of the home and most importantly, the Bible clearly recognizes women as apostles, prophets, judges, evangelists, leaders of house churches, business owners, deacons, teachers, and ruling queens.

My fear is that women in the Church are letting go of the rights our mothers and grandmothers have fought for in both the Church and in society.

Even complementarian women are confused by John Piper’s latest advice. Christian blogger Aimee Byrd, who calls herself a “Housewife Theologian,” states:

I am having a hard time understanding these guidelines. My influence in the civil sphere has to be non-personal and non-directive? Or I will upset the feminine masculine dynamic? Should we then get rid of women doctors and nurses? I don’t see how one could do that job without being both personal and directive. I’m sure they have many male patients whom they have to tell what to do. And we wouldn’t want women in any administrative roles then either. There would be so many jobs that “mature” women would not be able to serve in were they to follow these principles. I respectfully disagree with John Piper’s principles for women. This just isn’t biblical. After we clean up our own vocations that involve women in personal, directive positions, we will need to get rid of the Deborahs and Abigails of the Bible. Women are warriors too. And it does not violate a mature man’s sense of manhood when they do their job well.

Aimee is right, this just isn’t biblical!

Complementarianism is beginning to cause more damage than good and it is time that us “small guys” stand up to theological giants and lovingly take the keys to the car until they get new glasses that enable them to see the truth.

The other day, my Twitter gal pal Kelsey Lewis (@KelseyMLoo), who is an Mdiv Student, tweeted, “In college Piper’s words inspired me to go into ministry. I’m glad I didn’t know they weren’t intended for me.” I understand this thought all too well. I had never heard of complementarian theology until many years after God called me into ministry and I am so grateful for that. If I had grown up with parents or pastors who subscribed to this man-made doctrine, I may not be following God’s plan for my life, ministering to people all around the world online, preaching the Gospel, and teaching the Bible to both men and women. Sadly, women in their 50s and 60s write me often and tell me that because they grew up in complementarian churches, they did miss out on their God-given callings and are just now trying to find their voices and places in the Church and in society. It truly breaks my heart and I am certain that it breaks God’s heart too.

Could it be that egalitarians, who include many brilliant conservative and centrist theologians, have had it right all along that “there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28)? Could it be that “In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams” (Acts 2:17)? Could it be that even theologians like John Piper can have blind spots? Is it possible that God is promoting his daughters in such a way that the world has never known and He is restoring biblical equality in both value and authority among Christian men and women?

For I am about to do something new. See, I have already begun! Do you not see it? I will make a pathway through the wilderness. I will create rivers in the dry wasteland (Isaiah 43:19).

I believe with all my heart that God is raising up an army of both men and women who will not settle for anything less than full gender equality in Jesus’ Church.

He is giving us the sword of His Spirit, which is the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17). Our battle has never been against John Piper or any “flesh and blood enemy,” but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world (Ephesians 6:12). Only Satan would limit God’s daughters in how and to whom they can share the Gospel with.

It is time for churches to take another look at egalitarian theology, hire an equal amount of female pastors, and give women platforms to teach the infallible Word of God to men and women alike.

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Jory Micah Peterson was born and raised just outside Pittsburgh, PA where she now resides with her husband, Luke and their pet chihuahua, Noella. She holds an AA from Christ for the Nations Bible Institute in Practical Theology, a BS from Southwestern Assemblies of God University in Church Ministries, and an MA from Regent University in Christian Doctrine and History. Jory is an experienced Bible teacher and speaker who is passionate about seeing women become all that God has called them to be in the Christian Church. Follow Jory’s blog at jorymicah.com and find her on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube @jorymicah. She can be found on Facebook at “Jory Micah Ministries.”

Some egalitarian resources that highly regard scripture:
http://www.cbeinternational.org/

http://juniaproject.com/
http://jorymicah.com/

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Good job, Jory. Couldn’t agree more!

    Fortunately, even though I’m an older woman, not growing up in USA meant I was spared the Piper’s piping toward drowning in a river of misogyny, hence my lesser enculturation about not using my leadership gifts.

  • Sorry, but I don’t know John Piper. Any relation to Peter Piper? Further, I have no idea (nor desire to know) what complementarian is. Nonetheless, I’m betting I can guess the gist of both from the title of this post. Let me guess that Piper ‘believes’ that a book written 2600 years ago by Semitic scribes for a wandering, defeated tribe has relevance to Americans living in the 21st century.

    And, further, that God made these pronouncements and, as a result, we better live by what the scribes wrote!

    How did I do?

  • Uncle Dave

    I think there is a new Protestant denomination called Piperism.

  • Uncle Dave

    Pretty crappy really. Why try when you don’t know anything about him? I know some things about him and I don’t really like him. However he has some different takes on various Biblical issues and others he follows along with. It seems though, that you just lump all theologies together and are not interested in differences, no problem as you have that right. So go in peace, be happy, and don’t waste your time on a topic you cannot contribute to. Peace.

  • Curtis Martin

    Clearly, you were predestined to disagree with John Piper! (Hi Jory)

  • Sarah

    While this post is rife with pride (you compare yourself with David, call yourself a “natural born leader” and an “experienced Bible teacher” and expound on how much education you have, while the Apostle Paul called himself “the least of all apostles” 1 Cor. 15:9, though he had more reason to brag than you) it it is quite devoid of scripture. In fact you only share two verses that directly deal with the topic at hand.

    One of the main ones you use to justify your stance is Galatians 3:28. However this very scripture actually contradicts what you are using it to say. You are supposing “all are one in Christ Jesus” to mean that all of the people mentioned in this verse have the exact same roles in the Church and in the world. However, scripture clearly teaches that slaves are to submit to their masters (1 Peter 2:18, Ephesians 6:5), which negates the idea that slaves are to have the same role as their masters. Yes, they are equal in standing before God but not equal in the roles they are to perform, and not equal in the sense that one party (slaves) is commanded to submit to and obey the other (masters).

    Likewise, the Bible is also clear that wives are to submit to their husbands (Colossians 3:18, Ephesians 5:22), and in the Household of God they are not to teach or have authority over men (1 Timothy 2:12). You imply that the command to have different roles is demeaning or contradicts Galatians 3:28, but it in fact is not.

    Of course it is not cool or popular these days to talk about submitting, just as it is not cool or popular to say that women are different than men. But having been married for 7 years, I can say that submission is a beautiful and faith-building thing. And God is pleased when we obey his commands.

    So, Jory, you have the cool factor going for you: its cool these days to be a victim (and you point out how we women have been oh-so-victimized), and its cool to be a feminist, and its cool to be a David fighting a Goliath, and its cool to be a mother to a dog and not actual human beings. But despite your education, you don’t have God’s truth going for you, which was never meant to be cool.

  • jdamico

    I like when a biblical literalist/defense leaves out a whole second part of a verse, especially the wives submit. I submit to my wife. It’s rad. Your husband should give it a whirl! But, then again I have a dog kid too, and not a real one.”

    For a submissive wife, you’re pretty judgemental of others. I guess that’s the “Jesus truth.”

  • Kash

    Isaiah 3 :12 is all that is needed to shut this viper…

  • alwayspuzzled

    Let’s start in the beginning. “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them” (Genesis 1:27, KJV). If this verse is true (literally or allegorically), then God created male and female in his own image. If male and female are created in the image of God, then God is both male and female. If God is both male and female, then it seems reasonable to conclude that He wants men and women to participate equally in his work.

  • Jory Micah

    Hi Kash. Not sure what you mean exactly.

  • “Kash”: that kind of name calling is not tolerated here. Goodbye.

  • Jory Micah

    Hi Sarah.

    I understand your concerns. Often when I write positive things about myself, I wonder if I sound prideful, but I can assure you that is not my heart. As a woman in church leadership, I have had to be upfront about my education for many folks to even begin to take my theology seriously. I also beleive women have been told that they are not natural born leaders when many women in fact are. I only say that I was born a leader to prove that women are leaders too; not to puff myself up. Of course, you are free to judge me as a “dog mama” but hubby and I would love to have a real child. I had a miscarriage last year, so please pray for us to have a real baby if you are a praying woman.

    I don’t feel like a victim whatsoever, but again, that is your choice if you want to believe that about me.

    I agree with you that submitting is godly and I do submit to my hubs, but he also submits to me as Eph. 5:21 commands us to do. We have a really happy marriage and have been married almost 7 years too! I love him so much it is kinda sickening..hehe.

    Even though the Bible seems to permit slavery, I don’t beleive that slavery has ever been God’s ideal. I am reminded of His people, the Israelites, who He allowed to be enslaved for many painful years. But He sent Moses to their rescue and demanded that Egypt let His people go.

    I beleive that patriarchy is part of the curse of the fall as found in Gen. 3:16 (the woman will have pain in childbirth and your husband will rule over you). Later in the NT (Gal. 3:13), we see that Jesus took all the curses of the fall from us when he died on the cross (Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole). AMEN! 🙂

    Now that we are NT Christians, we have been set free and although patriarchy and slavery still exist sadly, I don’t beleive this is God’s ideal for His people.

    I am simply joining God’s cause and saying “Let my sisters go!” I want us gals to be free to lead and be who God has called us to be.

    As for 1 Timothy, I have written on the passage here:http://jorymicah.com/2015/06/08/explaing-first-timothy-211-15-female-submission-silence-subordination/

    I beleive that I am walking in truth and I highly regard scripture. I just see it differently than you and thankfully many highly regarded scholars also see it the way I have described in the post.

    Blessings to you!

  • Jory Micah

    HAHA! Hey buddy! #clearly 😉

  • Jory Micah

    LOL, touche Dave! 😉

  • Jory Micah

    Not sure what to say Denis… 🙂

  • Jory Micah

    Count yourself lucky Bev! hehe

    Thank you! Xo

  • lady_black

    My husband doesn’t want a submissive wife. Aren’t we meant to be happy in our marital arrangement? If I said “you’re in charge, honey, and don’t even expect me to make any decisions, that’s now all on you, cause Jesus” that would make him very unhappy.
    Didn’t Jesus say the law was made for men, not men for the law? What he was really saying was not to be so damn legalistic that you miss the whole point.
    I’m happy that your marriage, as you choose to conduct it, works for you. Isn’t that the point? Not every man or every woman is exactly like your husband and you, respectively. Therefore, what works for you won’t work for everyone. And thinking that a two thousand year old book has all the answers for a world vastly different than it was two thousand years ago is just foolish.

  • This article stinks of pride and identity politics. One of the best arguments against women pastors is that women who feel oppressed because they are denied the position of pastors are showing ambition unsuitable for *anyone*, male or female, who wants to be a pastor. There are many ways to serve God, and most of us are not called to be pastors.

  • What to say? What about this- this nonsense preached by Piper and others who believe in biblical inerrancy is exactly why we are in a post-Christian era. It is exactly why churches are empty on Sunday mornings. It is why “nones” are rising steeply and “religious” are falling.

    Americans are no longer hoodwinked by so-called biblical authority. They are becoming ever-more enlightened about the book and many no longer believe that the Bible is the word of God. There is way too much ugly humanism between the covers to pin that stuff on the Creator of the Universe.

    Thus when these preachers attempt to back up their miserable theology by citing the Bible, people scoff and turn away. They have more important things to do with their lives than to think about biblical nonsense.

  • BT

    That makes no sense at all. It’s like black people would be unsuited for leadership because if you wanted to serve in a leadership capacity but weren’t allowed to, then obviously you are too prideful to be a public servant.

    The logic is totally circular and has nothing to do with the fundamental problem.

    If you want a certain thing, then obviously you shouldn’t have it because wanting it is a character issue??? The same would fit male pastors – anyone who wants to be a pastor is by definition unfit to hold the post!

    It’s very strange “logic”.

  • Jory Micah

    I advocate for women to be able to lead in the positions God has called them to and if that is lead pastor then she should go for it. Why would we ever want to stop a man or a woman from following a career choice to feed Jesus’ sheep? Why would we want less pastors? Less people sharing the Gospel and teaching God’s Word from a position of authority? Do you see how Satan would be behind such a teaching?

    Calling women prideful who are not afraid to say positive things about themselves is another way of silencing women. The truth is that you don’t know my heart at all. Only God can judge someone’s heart.

  • Jory Micah

    Amen girl! I am so with you and I greatly respect female nurses who save lives daily! 🙂

  • Jory Micah

    I understand your point. I actually do beleive the Bible to be the Word of God and the final authority in the Christian’s life. However, I believe that complementarians have misinterpreted it and taken passages out of context to fit their patriarchal agenda. I think many Christians do this to fit their human doctrines.

  • BT

    Kudo’s for being way more polite about this than I can be. My wife is finally following her gifting and in seminary, so I tend to come unhinged on this topic.

  • BT

    My issue is with 1 Tim 2:12. Seriously – we’ve built an entire theology around what women may or may not do based on a verse that uses a rare Greek word that no one can say for sure what it means.

    And 1 Peter? Are we really going to defend slavery just because it’s in the bible?

  • Oh, I thought that your theology was more progressive than this. Sorry.

  • Darrell

    Eric,

    Your response reeks of poor logic and reason. As noted already, we might as well argue that because blacks felt oppressed as slaves and wanted to be free that their very “ambition” to do so made them unsuitable to be free. What a joke. Further, what right have you to judge the writer as to pride and identity politics? I’m not judging your motives for you ridiculous response, just pointing out the fact it is ridiculous. Why not address her actual points? I think we know already why you chose not to.

  • Darrell

    Sarah,

    I love how when a woman gives a Biblical perspective you disagree with, she is prideful, but then when you give us your perspective somehow it’s not. You are a fundamentalist and yes we all know that in those circles it is very cool to act as if the 1950’s in America was the only decade that interpreted the Bible correctly, so yes, you are very cool. Are you sure you should be on blogs like this, sharing actual opinions, and not just baking cookies or cleaning house? You know there are men on here you could be offending as you “teach” us how to interpret the Bible. Shame on you.

  • No_6

    Piper’s stance is entirely fabricated on identity politics, albeit the form of identity politics the church has been entirely supportive of for centuries. Men don’t like to be challenged on their claim to authority. A man’s dislike of this, however, is the worst reason not to challenge men in the realm of theology.

    Yes, it is literally that simple.

  • This is your warning.

  • Jory Micah

    Its cool! 🙂

  • chuckle… not to put too fine a point on it!

    Truthfully, most of us are not called to be pastors, but the ones who are, must be given room to obey God in their calling, regardless of gender, Eric!

  • Good, we don’t really believe in genuflecting anyway… chuckle!

  • Jory Micah

    Good points!

  • Jory Micah

    I would agree that my husband likes when I help make decisions too. I think complementarians put way too much pressure on husbands, especially men who are more laid back types.

  • lizzysimplymagic

    Wait, are you justifying complementarianism, or slavery?

    Because I hope the next big Christian trend isn’t going to be, “let’s all get some slaves, because… Jesus!”

  • Luminous

    The dirty little secret about “egalitarian” husbands is that they inevitably cheat. When the wife dominates the household and her husband, she lulls herself into believing that he adores her and would never dream of cheating on her. But henpecked husbands definitely do cheat, not so much out of lust but out of a sense of male pride, doing something that their wife didn’t approve of. The kind of women who henpeck their husbands assume that they obey out of love – not even remotely true. It’s not love, it’s laziness – easier for the man to leave the decision-making to the woman and just go along with it. So the biggest problem with “egalitarianism” is that it inevitably produces husbands who are outwardly docile and submissive, but they have affairs (or hookups) on the side, and they hand off the decision-making to the wife, making things easier for themselves. Trust me on this, men know what other men do when their wives aren’t around. Bill Clinton (admittedly, he’s no Christian) could be the template, married to the domineering woman and constantly having sexual flings. Never assume that a man who behaves like a gelding at home is the same when his wife isn’t around.

  • BT

    There is a bit of a double standard in churches when it comes to being prideful. men can point out their educational achievements as evidence of being fit for a certain job. If a woman does that, it’s often taken as evidence of pride.

    And yet, as you say, if a woman DOESNT point out her achievements, she is less likely to be taken seriously.

    It’s frequently a lose/lose proposition for a woman. How do I know? Our church replaced my wife as worship leader with a man with fewer musical, liturgical, and theological skills. If you point that out, you are accused having “too high of a standard.”

  • BT

    If you haven’t read Webb’s “Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals” I recommend it. Oddly, it’s written by a complementarian, and reaches a few conclusions I strongly disagree with, BUT – he does point things in a different direction: how to engage with the bible as a modern thinking person while still holding a very high view of the bible.

    He reads it more as having a redemptive trajectory rather than being bound to a specific point in time.

    Worth a read.

  • Jory Micah

    Oh this must be why Josh Duggar cheated?!

    You are misrepresenting egalitarian marriage. A “hen-pecker” or one who dominates her husband is NOT an egal wife.

    Egal women SHOULD respect their husbands, allow him to make some decisions, and empower him to lead in what he is gifted in. BUT, egal men SHOULD respect their wives, allow her to make some decisions, and allow her to lead in what she is gifted in. The Bible is all about husbands and wives MUTUALLY loving and respecting one another. NO ONE SHOULD DOMINATE THE OTHER. This is what makes a healthy marriage.

  • Jory Micah

    I could not agree more! Telling a woman who is confident in herself that she is “prideful” is an age old tactic to try and oppress women and make them too insecure to use their voice and power. I actually laugh when people call me prideful now because the ones who do this are always (and I mean always) self-righteous (which is the type of pride Jesus hated).

  • Darrell

    Are you joking? Is that why Jimmy Swaggart cheated? Or Jim Bakker? Or Ted Haggard? Or Michael Hintz? I could go on. Plus, you completely misunderstand what egalitarian means. It leads to none of the stereotypes you give. Your response is pure stereotyping based upon urban anecdotal myths at best. Finally, it addresses nothing of substance as to Jory’s essay.

  • RayBann

    There is no proof that Junias (Rom 16:7) was
    a woman, or
    an apostle.
    Any interpretation of a biblical passage that happens to coincide with a social trend ought to arouse suspicions. The trend toward “Junia” just happens to coincide with the rise of feminism in the churches. Even if it could be proven that Junia was a woman and an apostle (which would be impossible), there’s the insurmountable fact that it would be the only reference to a woman apostle in the NT. Considering that the name Junias (male) is unknown in Greek writings from this period, Junia almost certainly was a woman, one esteemed by the apostles, but not an apostle herself. We can’t allow the mindset of the 21st century to skew our interpretation of what Paul wrote. The important thing to remember is that Christianity has always attracted more women than men, that many married women attend church without their husbands (which clearly rules out the nonsense about “patriarchy”), and that the vast majority of Christian women for 2000 years were just fine with male clergy. America is an open marketplace of religion, women who dislike churches that do not ordain women can attend churches that do. Live and let live.

  • Jory Micah

    I could not disagree with you more. You are very wrong about Junia and everything you wrote about her shows that you have not studied her deeply. As part of my ma thesis, I dived deeply into scholarly research about Junia and there is great evidence that she was in fact an apostle and that her name was changed to Junias later on by sexist male Bible interpreters. You can read my research here: http://jorymicah.com/about/masters-thesis/

    Secondly, Deborah was a chosen female leader in the OT who we know for a fact led both men and women as a judge, army leader, and spiritual leader. It is impossible to deny that God used her to lead both men and women. Sure, you can do some theological gymnastics and claim that she was only God’s choice because no man would stand up to do her job, but this is ridiculous. I wrote about how ridiculous it is here: http://jorymicah.com/2015/08/11/deborah-judge-prophet-or-both/

    Thirdly, “live and let live” is a typical way to silence efforts towards equality in the WHOLE Church and that is just not going to happen. Sorry.

    Christian feminism is not new. You are right that women have always been more attracted to the Church than men have been. The reason for this is because Jesus offered women equality to men in a scandalous way. Jesus was a feminist and I follow in His footsteps!

  • This is nonsense, obviously.

  • Darrell

    There is plenty of proof; you are either unaware of it or disagree with it. If there was only “one” reference in the NT it would be extremely important. One of the reasons women were attracted to the early church and to this day is because they understood it was a narrative that lifted them up and put limits on patriarchy if not actually undermining it. The vast majority of Christian men and women were also fine with slavery for hundreds of years, but such didn’t make that right either. Live and let live is exactly what is not happening currently. We tell women they cannot fill certain roles in our churches and if they don’t like it they can find another church–that is not live and let live.

  • RayBann

    Take the issue of women clergy up with Paul the apostle, not me.

  • RayBann

    Not sure I understand your comments. Deborah appears in the Old Testament Book of Judges. Apostles are only mentioned in the New Testament (Matthew to Revelation). There are no apostles in the Old Testament. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Biblegateway, but it is a very helpful online tool for people researching the Bible. You can even do a word search on it. You’ll find that the word “apostle” is not used in any version of the Old Testament. Wayne Grudem and Daniel Wallace are some very highly regarded Bible scholars with PhDs who have addressed the Junia issue, they are well worth reading.

    I was not aware that “live and let live” is a “typical way to silence efforts toward equality.” I have never heard it used that way. Most people take it as expressing tolerance and willing to peacefully coexist. I’m perfectly happy that some churches ordain women, although all of those denominations are declining in numbers, so aside from the biblical issues of ordination, purely in terms of filling the pews it appears that women clergy result in decline in attendance. Whether it’s a matter of causation or correlation is not clear.

  • Jory Micah

    I am not saying that Deborah was an apostle. I was simply pointing out that Deborah was a clear female leader in the Bible over both men and women.

    I am well aware of Grudem’s poor biblical arguments. I refuted many of them in my master’s thesis, which can be read http://jorymicah.com/about/masters-thesis/. Many reputable scholars disagree majorly with Grudem.

    It is evident that you are getting your stats and info from complementarian sources which are biased and mostly untrue/unbiblical.

    I see complementarianism as oppression in the name of Jesus which I will NEVER be tolerant of.

  • Darrell

    That is the problem–you think you know exactly what the Apostle Paul meant in his writings and anyone who takes a different perspective than you is now supposedly arguing with Paul. Nope, just taking it up with you–you don’t get to speak for Paul and there are plenty of women scholars who would disagree with your interpretations of Paul and the Bible in general on these issues.

  • Mark

    No one can “refute” Grudem, he has degrees from Harvard and Cambridge, one of the giants among biblical scholars, a name to reckon with.

  • Mark

    Women scholars are not biased?

  • Jory Micah

    There are plenty of male and female scholars who have interpreted Paul differently, so Darrell is right. We will not “take it up with Paul.” We will take it up with Ray and anyone else who is so egotistical to beleive they speak for Paul without a shadow of a doubt that they could be wrong.

  • Jory Micah

    HAHA, I assure you that many scholars who are just as smart and have just as reputable degrees can and HAVE refuted Grudem. These are the guys I quote on my MA thesis. Do you really think I would not choose to quote Bible “giants?”

    The problem with the complementarian camp is that it is so prideful and they soak themselves in false grace and pride themselves in self-righteousness. Jesus hated this type of sin.

    Pride comes before the fall and Complementarianism will fall.

  • Darrell

    Are you tracking with what I wrote? Where did I write anything about bias? Everyone is biased to a degree, including you, but I was talking about different interpretations and perspectives. Two different things.

  • Mark, come on. Atheists have degrees from Harvard. This comes down to a comparison of ideas and exegesis and then a decision.

  • Luminous

    LOL – “nonsense”?
    Christian men don’t cheat?
    Henpecked men don’t cheat?

  • Luminous

    Did I say ALL adulterers were henpecked?
    No, I didn’t.
    I said all henpecked men cheat, and I stand by that. A woman married to a low-T, “yes, dear” man is “at ease in Zion,” assuming that sort of man would never look at another woman.

  • Luminous

    A woman has a much greater role in the spiritual lives of her husband and children than any pastor ever does, and I think it’s safe to say that Christianity has flourished for 2000 years due to godly women more than to any pastor or evangelist. There’s no doubt that there will be more women in heaven than men. But a certain type of woman obsesses over her “right” to be Senior Pastor at X Church. She doesn’t care about the kingdom of God, she’s focused on herself. No self-absorbed person – male or female – has any business in the pastorate.

  • Luminous

    At which seminary do you teach?

  • I’m gonna cut you off at the past here, “truelinguist.” You can either accept the illogic of your argument and take a different tact, or go elsewhere. Thanks.

  • Jory Micah

    I don’t currently teach at a seminary, but I graduated from Regent Seminary in Virginia Beach.

  • Jory Micah

    This is where your judgment is wrong! I have never wanted to be a lead pastor, but I am obsessed with ending patriarchy in the church so my sisters who do want to be a lead pastor can without oppression from people like you and manipulation that calls a woman who wants to pastor selfish!

  • A.V.

    And male scholars are objective?

  • Irv T

    Some of the worst nonsense ever posted on the web. “I hate John Piper” is a shaky foundation for a religion.

  • Irv T

    Deborah was a very effective cheerleader on one occasion. She did not rule Israel. None of the leaders in Judges ruled over all Israel. The heroes in the battle were Barak and Jael.

  • Tim Bushong

    Could YOU be wrong?

  • Tim Bushong

    Or, conversely, “The problem with the egalitarian camp is that it is so prideful and
    they soak themselves in false grace and pride themselves in
    self-righteousness. Jesus hated this type of sin.”

    There–that’s better!