Great!

Ty.

Your "yes" is a clear choice. We are, indeed, done, you to yours, me to mine.

He seems like a stabilized, medicated version of Rodney.

"Shall I give up on that?"

Yes.

Ty,

Why won't you reveal your novel?

And, as I have said many times before, I admire your choice to eschew religion for atheism. Cold is better than lukewarm. I was hoping that I could persuade you and Daniel that there is a difference between religion and spirituality. Shall I give up on that?

And, I thank you for deciding to stop taunting. A becoming, or ethically sound choice.

So, the answer is once you went delusional, you stopped doing any serious work. Got it.

You do know we all think you're a kook, right? The failure already happened. This is all post mortem at this point.

Do you think atheists are born that way? Both the founder of this site and I were trained as ministers. I myself studied theology for three years, and served as a minister for two. I prayed, fasted, worked at spreading the gospel full time for years, the whole enchilada.

Then I woke up and realized it was all bullshit. As soon as I stopped giving all my money to the church, evangelizing, and praying I became the most successful I've ever been. My life is about as perfect as a life can be. I have lots of disposable income. I have a best selling novel on the shelves, and it's on just about every top ten of the year lists you can find.

Prayer never got me a damn thing. Being a self actuating realist got me everything. By your math, that means atheism is provably true.

I feel sorry for you, Grok. I'm going to stop taunting you now.

Ty,

Do you really think that paper, or even the recent Science one, is going to do any good in making the world a better place? Once I became persuaded that the best bet for life was to assume biblical theology was true, I naturally began to invest in that assumption, in my efforts to make a positive difference. You will have to study the theology yourself to satisfy your curiosity. But, I can point out that what gets the job done is prayer (not the Christian lie), backed up by certain investments (like fasting). An important one is going to the most likely candidates for receiving and disseminating truth, in an each one teach one fashion. If I so give others the chance to get in on the fix, then I see the fix no matter what they decide to do. As I have noted, you guys here are, according to my present estimates, as hopeful as it gets for the truth getting out. So, here is one of the places where I put it out there.

If it fails here, it will fail everywhere else, in the sense of fixing the status quo. You guys are one of humanities' last, great hopes. (But you knew that....,and it wasn't hubris!) Then, when I see the fix, I see a new thing. Or so the theology goes. Have to try it out and see. So far,....

"The main clue is you think others have the problem, and not yourself"

What a wonderfully self reinforcing delusion you dwell in. I admit I'm curious what you do when you're not trolling forums. Do you have a job? You pile a lot of weight on one paper you wrote 20 years ago, but have you done anything since then?

Ty,

3000 years of the philosophical study of applied epistemology, which includes Occam as so-so footnote, has a lot to say about delusion and deception, human honesty, and self-deception. Dangerous stuff, because them that have the problems are the last to know.

The main clue is you think others have the problem, and not yourself. Only a clue, though.

I went into science and philosophy because, having learned from Diogenes that "all men are liars," which had, logically, to include me, I hoped that the rules I might learn there would cure the problem. I have good reason to believe that that was the case, by and large. At least, in terms of the hopes and dreams that were directing my young life then, so far so good.

But, as I say, thanks for the reminder and warning.

"So, yes, if I did not have regular heart-to-heart talks with the scriptural God, including clearly defined ways to know that I was not "talking to myself," I would be an agnostic or atheist. The God presented in scripture simply has to be available to interact that way, or he is somebody's confidence game."

Or, you are simply delu8sional. Occam has something to say about that.

FO,

The "Christian God," as I have noted, is a nasty mock-up of the spiritually presented God of the scriptures. The scriptural God is closer to that presented by Carl Sagen in Contact, a person who wants to talk, heart to heart. A compassionate caring father who wants the best for others, wants to transform humans into His children, little gods themselves, if they are willing. Christians hate me even worse than some here seem to imply, because I remind them that it is written that His sheep know His voice, from constant back and forth talking. It is very easy to show in scripture where God declares all Christians liars and lost, hypocrites. I admonish all here to forget all that Christianity brings to these discussions, and get on with the consideration of spiritual truth.

So, yes, if I did not have regular heart-to-heart talks with the scriptural God, including clearly defined ways to know that I was not "talking to myself," I would be an agnostic or atheist. The God presented in scripture simply has to be available to interact that way, or he is somebody's confidence game.

Well, it made sense.
What disturbs me, is that I have the idea of the Christian God as some infinite, ineffable being that has a greater plan that we can't possibly understand.
Yet, you seem extremely confident to understand exactly His mind.
You write several times that "he approves", "he wants" etc etc.
Being an atheist I'm just baffled, but I'd expect another Christian to consider you a bit arrogant.
Is He that "approves" or "wants", or actually you?

Thanks, FO,

Actually, when I awoke this morning, I had the same thought.

First, as to where one might tithe as an experiment, some possibilities came to mind. The first has to do with Jews living in places where anti-semitism still is a problem, like Russia. There are ministries that get them out, usually to Israel, before that happens. God approves of any effort to prevent another holocaust.

Second, there are Bible translators, like Wycliffe, that get the scriptures, and incidentally, literacy, to peoples where these are lacking. Or, Frank Laubach literacy, if one is more comfortable with the literacy angle, and wants to avoid the religious crap. God approves of that inclination.

Third, ministries that help the poor, say with wells, without any gospel message or church affiliation, but as representatives of the generic God of the scriptures, are safe. This link might be helpful:

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/3502-matthew-parris-as-an-atheist-i-truly-believe-africa-needs-god

Fourth, set it aside in a separate account, reserved for when it "becomes clear" where God wants it to go. Use for any educational opportunity that answers a theological question you are wondering about. Any poor you know personally (you don't have to honor God in the giving.)

Fifth, this guy's work is still going on. Fibd out how to give to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller

The bible dsclares itself to be a spiritual document, with the goal of of getting the reader in contact with the spiritual being, Jehovah, and free from the spiritual being, the devil. It appears to be messy because there is a temptation in the hearts and minds of men to live by the knowledge of good and evil, instead of "by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Jehovah has graciously had the scriptures written so that only a very foolish, intellectually lazy person would try to use them to order their life. Now, once one "knows His voice," and is "walking humbly with God," finding wise life choices through this personal interaction, there are lots of questions raised in the scriptures that produce wonderful dialectics with God. Call it spiritual dialectics.(dialectic spiritualism is too spooky for me!)

BTW, anything I put in quotes can be googled to find the relevant scripture.

But, there is one "knowledge of evil" in the scriptures that one can safely avoid. That is hypocrisy. In this case, if one says that one is going to use the scriptures as a guide to living, and then considers being religious, one must look up what is written in the scriptures about religion and religiosity. Then, one must either follow that, or ask God about it. If this rule were followed, there would be no Christianity. Look it up yourself. No person respecting the scriptures would ever say that they were "of Christ." None would build a "church" building (biblically, a contradiction in terms), or give their group a name. Look it up. The most relevant passage ends with "not think beyond what is written" about church or religious life. Little of what goes on is written, which concerns widows and orphans and self-examination and repentance.

Read the Malachi passage on tithing, and then google "tithe" and look up the other scriptures on the subject. Get some expectations about what will happen if you tithe as an experiment. How the "devourer" will be rebuked, and abundance will come.

And, still, consider all the people you know, and pick out the wisest and most "righteous." Contact them. "How can you say that you love God, who you cannot see, if you do not love your brother who you can see?" "First in the natural, then in the spiritual." God putatively has made us in His image, so that we can look in a mirror, at ourselves in the eye, and get a first impression of what He is like. What makes you want to go and meet someone, and talk about being friends? Be that way with Him.

Clearer? Maybe we beed a miracle.

@groktruth: I am having some troubles following your arguments.
Your writing is IMHO a bit confused and does no justice to your ideas.
You may want to rework the way you present them.

Yes, Mogg, what are you doing!

When I did this experiment, as a scientist, I did what all scientists do. I went to those who reported doing this experiment and getting a successful outcome, and asked them what they did. What they said was, they looked for someone they knew personally, who was the spiritually wisest person they knew, who had given them the best insights. Or, the person who got prayers answered the best, that they knew personally. They asked this person what to do with the tithe. If possible, ask God for wisdom, and do what you sensed He said. Since Yeshua, there does not seem to be a set answer, as there was in the OT.

"Biblically sound" is a tricky phrase, according to the scriptures. Find the biblical verses which ought to be in a preface, collect these in your own preface, and then read the book with a scholarly mindset, according to that preface. (e.g. "if the bible is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, it is not to be eaten from").

God is love. God is truth. Expect the tithe to go to places that increase the love and truth in God's world, if He does in fact exist.

"a church?" Read what "the church" is supposed to look like, and if you find anything remotely resembling the biblical description, you are probably safe.

"He who believes in Me, shall not make haste."

A couple of questions (what am I doing???):

- If churches are wicked and that's not where your tithe should go, to whom do you give your tithe? It was quite clear in the OT that it was for the support of the Levites and priests who ministered on behalf of the givers, so I can't see how a tithe would be Biblically sound if you aren't giving it to a church, the modern form of ministry.

- I thought you were going to practice shaking the dust off your feet? What happened?

"Which is why I post here, and not there."

Seriously, don't do us any favors. Go save the truly wicked.

You get pretty excited about it.

Biblical theology, which has a fairly clear position on tithing, has an even clearer position on christianity and organized religion. These are, biblically, the deepest sins, the most immoral, self-destructive activities one can engage in or support. It is fairly clear, in scriptural theology, that all self-pronounced Christians are as doomed as any human can be, as are all who say they go to church. Sending dollars to such organizations is bad. Calling that "tithing" is one of the most pernicious lies one can tell. By that book, the rate of salvation for atheists is much higher than for these hypocritical "believers." Which is why I post here, and not there.

Epistemologically, I thoroughly recommend understanding any hypothetical position, such as biblical theology, before you set out to judge, test, ot critique. I spent 25 years shaking off the disinformation which came my way when I set out to meet this standard, most of which came from "Christians." Hope you think about that, should you take up a similar goal. Save yourself some time.

If anyone has been observing GrokTruth's attempts on the 'Calling all Theists" thread, he talks about the Malachi test. It's exactly that scripture which is used to get people to give as much as possible. I can't say that I've studied it as rigourously as an experiment truly requires, but my general observations of many participants showed results that most decidedly failed to support the hypothesis.

One of the first cracks in my faith centered around tithing. At a time when my wife and I were in rough financial shape we got a letter from our church telling us that we were not living up to our tithing obligations. I had to wonder why god needed our money so much.

@Gringa - Australia. There are branches in most of the state capitals and quite a few country towns in the eastern states, but they all operate as one group. I hasten to add that I did without the 'blessing' for the most part :-)

@Mogg - where was this church?

@Mogg: that seems more like VAT than tithe... O_O

Kodie, at my old church people were taught that if you only tithe (on gross, not net, income), but don't also give extra in 'firstfruits' and 'free will' offerings as in the Old Testament then God would not bless them. They interpreted 'firstfruits' as the first 10% of any new endeavour, such as a new job, and free will is self explanatory - an extra that you'd like to give to makingsuretheeldershadaniceshinynewcarandadecentwinecellar, er, God. Sold your house? 10% of the price you received to the church. Inherited money? 10% to the church minimum. You want extra special blessing? Double tithe (yes, really). Donated to the Bible School registered as a legitimate educational facility but really just the church's regular kiddie Sunday School and adult bible study program, and got a tax deduction? Your tax return belongs to the church. Offering could also be in volunteer labour. I know of several people who spent months or years contributing free labour for building, ground maintenance or cafe 'outreach' projects, and at least one person who had a full time job and a consulting business on the side who gave all the profits from his business to the church.

Strangely enough, there's a high incidence of stress-related illness, depression, relationship breakdown, and small business or personal bankruptcies at that church.

I think it is the act of charity that counts, not whether or not it ends up at a church

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. It is perfectly possible to give away large sums of money that never reach the people you are intending to help, if you donate unwisely (and I would argue that if you do this, despite your good intentions you have not actually committed an act of charity. You have been fleeced of your money, nothing more).

I want my donations to be as effective as possible. I won't give my money to blanket charity organizations like United Way either, because too much of the money gets sucked into administrative overhead. When I give, I give directly to the charity that I want to support.

Dude, I'm very much behind giving that much of your income to some kind of charity. I have known evangelicals who give as much as 20% of their income, although that's considerably rarer than the flat 10% I think it is the act of charity that counts, not whether or not it ends up at a church--I would back Harris up on this, which is crazy, because I hate him...

I always like to ask people why god needs money. Seems like he'd just provide for those who were doing "his" work.

My current charity of choice is, "put my wife through an extremely expensive and decade long education." I give much more than 10% to that one.

Kodie, there is no doubt the churches are full of graft and greed.

More interesting is the question: Look how easy it is to give 10%, what would happen if we all did and gave it to real causes? Sam Harris has been talking about the 'new tithe'. I'd challenge everyone here to try and match the level of giving that the sheeple do, but give it to real charities. My favorites are MSF, Mercy Corp, St. Judes, Smile Train and NPR.