Crileside,

If you are struggling with your "compulsion to believe" you might like Michael Shermer's book "The Believing Brain" http://www.amazon.ca/Believing-Brain-Conspiracies-How-Construct-Reinforce/dp/0805091254

Personally, my own conversion to 'skepticism' began when I started to investigate the difference between actual knowledge vs. speculative belief. We can believe a great many things about the world around us, and be quite 'certain' of our beliefs, and yet still be quite mistaken about the lens we use to interpret natural phenomena. Knowledge, hypothesis, theory, evidence, Law, principle, etc.; all of these words have a denotative meaning that is quite restrictive to speculative belief systems. For example--and I will use a non-Christian example--there is a religion/cult called 'Science of Mind' [it pains me to provide a link lest anyone suffer the psychic agony I have by reading it, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Science. Like many religions and speculative belief systems, Religious Science, loves to dress its metaphysical speculations up in the language of actual science. This is because science is the coin of the realm. It is everywhere, and it works. Even persons who are critical of naturalism and secular humanism are surrounded daily by the very devices and procedures that are only a result of scientific thinking. Therefore they adopt some of the language of science to give their speculations some sort of false legitimacy.

However, if any of their claims were subjected to any sort of scientific procedures it would become very clear, very fast, that their 'beliefs' have very little science and even less mind to them!

Metaphysical speculations with no evidence, no proof, no testing, no way of knowing whatsoever, other than the belief or opinion of the purveyor are just that: speculation! Until one can clearly see the difference between speculation and belief and real actual knowledge it will always be difficult to not be drawn to certain beliefs. I very much know what it is to be inculcated in and indwell a world where belief and knowledge are given equal footing, or even worse: belief is elevated as something better than knowledge. No proof, just speculation, but you are a fool if you don't 'believe'. It can be difficult to remove yourself from this type of socialization. However, once you begin to see the flimsy claims that many beliefs have, and the true nature of actual knowledge, it is all but impossible not to be skeptical of some of these belief claims.

Also, have you been reading Deepak? I don't know, I merely ask. I have not read this whole thread (tl;dr) but I'm not sure about the relationship you see between the subatomic and the macroscopic. People of Deepak's ilk always WAY overestimate (and almost always misrepresent) this relationship.

Seriously: read Shermer. And consider his advice for the best tool we have for judging our 'beliefs'.

Be well!

@Fo
I really came here to learn.
My "knowledge" sounds more like unreasonable beliefs than an actual knowledge. So, if you know I´m actually wrong, I´d really appreciate your words (even if you bite)

Thnx

@Yoav

I understand you, and I agree. I know waht you say. Thanks for posting

And my problem is not the lack of analysis but the "kind" of analysis my brain use to perform. My brain find connections where in everywhere... may be it´s a pathology (just like John Nash in A Beautiful Mind) I speaking about the pathologycal aspect of John Nash. I´m not a mathematician at all.

Thing is that I really cannot deny what I don´t see.

but some guys here gave me some nice tips yesterday and I keep those in mind.
I´m more relaxed with this stuff of "believing as a sport"

Many thanks for your post as well.

I think that the "compulsion to believe" is such an illness, and that´s why I came here asking for help.

The mere talking with you, skeptic people, helps me a lot, no matter your words are exactly what I expect to hear, this relationship with you is quite healing for my mind.

Thank you so much!!! :)

The physicians went further and really proved that at quantum level, the matter is actually sensitive to the human mind activity, pressence and quality.
The matter actually behaves in a subttle different way depending on who is near and imprinting it with his thoughts.

These experiments are really facts and proved.

@Jeremiah

what I said about curious quantum behaviors is for example this:

You know the simple interference phenomenon when you have a single wave that is "divided" into two waves due the passage through a wall containing two openings.
If you throw little balls from a canyon, the pattern as a result is two bands.
But if you make a wave to pass through, the resultant pattern is an interference pattern of two waves.
(you know that)

OK.
Just to determine if the electron is a particle or a wave, scientists made she same experiment they put a CRT (knowing electrons are small particles) and as a result was an interference pattern.
they thought the particles did interfere among them because of they collide among eachother.

Going further, they built a CRT with a small opening that only could emite one electon at time, in front of a photographic film.
Then they intercepted the electronic beam with that wall that has two openings.
The result was a bands pattern.
So it means that the particle did pass at the same time through the two openings and through no one in special (mathematically speaking the formula is paradoxical)

Then the scientisis wanted to know what did the particle really do at the moment of pass through the openings, and they put a detector there (an observer device)
As a result, the electrons did behave as they were particles (little balls)The result in the photographic film was two single bands. The electrons change their behavior just due the observer existence. just like the electron "felt" he was being watched.

then they took off the observer device and the electron´s behavior became as wave like.

That´s what I was talking about.

Word of advice: atheist dudes are just dudes

And here I became an atheist just to impress the ladies..... :(

Speaking of quantum weirdness there is the Quantum Zeno Effect which basically says that a particle will not decay while you are observing it. I don't know if that is what crileside had in mind or not.

Lions are just a bunch of hippie cats, they should stop sleeping all day and get a haircut.
Crileside, no one can really tell you how to not believe, it will sort of self defeat the purpose if you change your beliefs because someone told you to. Critical thinking is a skill and like all other skills you get better by practice, just pick one of your beliefs and start analyzing it, why do you believe it, what evidence for or against it exist, are there other explanations that fit the data you have, do these other explanations make more or less sense then the one you started with, and so on and so on. Feel free to test your ideas against others, this forum is a good place for that just present your thesis and have other people offer criticism then try to defend your position. It may be hard and a little scary at first but with practice it will become easier.
One specific point, you said:

For example, Is well known that in quantum physics, the phenomenon change its behavior if it´s being watched or not.
And it changes as well depending on who is watching.

You know that materals has definite behaviors and characteristiques, but for example, in nano measures, the properties are quite different but absolute, and in quantum scale are relative to the observer.

Quantum physics is the endline of objective science and there starts the relative science.

This sound like the Deepak Chopra school of quantum physics, I'm not a physicist myself so FO, as a real one, feel free to correct me if I got things really wrong.
The way I understand it a quantum particle isn't changing when observed it is just a way to explain, in somewhat understandable language, a very complex mathematical description. The particle is not actually in multiple places and states but rather it is at any time at a single location however our current understanding allow us to calculate it's position only to within a region so we have a list of probabilities for the particle being in any given spot but we can't, at the moment, calculate exactly where it will be, once the particle hit a detector these probabilities "collapse" since we now know where the particle hit. Think of it as drawing a card from a deck, before you pull a card we can't say which one it will be only give you a probability, once you picked your card the probability that this specific card is the one you picked is 100%.

@Noelle

You have such a matchmaker soul!!

Sweet <3 <3 <3

You like quiet 50-somethings? We got some of them around here.

See? Look at your way... that´s what I´m talking about

Lions den?
LOL, are we so dangerous now? ^_^
You are not even so adamant about spiritual woo, we haven't much to bite... =P

@Noelle

I´m "young" That means I´m 40 but my mind and body are about 25.
mmm... well, honestly my mind perhaps is about 15 LOL!!!

I tend to like older men, quiet, secure, atheists, not very communicative, not very smiling, dominant but not violent, serious and practical. Men of about 55 years old (I don´t feel any attraction to young men. Not at all)

Is that answering your question?

I´ll seriously think about contecting them... That could be dangerous...
Here is more easy, because I know it is impossible for us to meet eachother in the real life. But If I contact people from Argentina... mmm... I prefer not.
It could be so harmful (due the atheist and skeptic aspect)
i mean, i have many contacts in real life (a lot) but none of them are joining a club. Are just individuals (most of them atheists and skeptics) but none of them is joining a club. i mean, for "el circulo de escepticos" the skepticism and atheism is such a religion!!
That´s not a relaxed way for me.

I can do the experience of meeting people like you (bigots of skepticism) but only with miles of distance between.

I´m getting into this site such as if I were getting into the lions den!!!

Word of advice: atheist dudes are just dudes. They ain't got no more mystery than the theist version. I'm with you on the attractive bit. Back in my young and single days, all the young men I had painful crushes on were atheists. I didn't make that connection at the time. I just figured it was a coincidence. In retrospect, I can say that my preference of cute socially-awkward geeks with a biting sense of humor kind of narrowed the field down for me. I also expected to always be treated as equal, even if that meant an honest reaction when I was being bitchy, swearing, or using my own subtle sharp brand of humor. Though I did come across a few Christian men with these qualities, they often ended up in friend zone immediately with no attraction from either party. So I'm with you there. It did work out eventually. I dated a few and married one. And I was a Christian at the time. I stopped believing on my own terms years later.

You are young? Do you feel the natural intimidation because it's mixed with anxiety and attraction? Are they reacting with barriers because of your naturally bouncy flight-of-ideas personality? Do not attempt to be like them. Be yourself. Learn everything. You are a confident and strong woman. Geeks respect education, confidence, and humor. I don't live in Argentina, so I can't beat any of them up for you for being cold or harsh. This blog is crawling with atheist dudes. It's a good place to pick up some communication skills. Find a real-life atheist/free-thinking group within easy travel distance and go enjoy some in-person company.

*edit: your English is fine. If you want to flip into your native tongue, there are a lot of multi-lingual smarties here to translate. And not only are you welcome here, but I like you and hope you stick around.

No, I was not making any such suggestion. I just thought you might be interested to know that there is an active skeptical/atheist community in Argentina.

Your English is much better than my Spanish, BTW.

Ok, I´ll think about that. And thank you so much for the link :)
And... was that a suggestion that i´m misplaced here because of my language? (not offended if so)

I understand not being ready to meet people face to face. They do have an active online forum on their site, however, if you want to make contact over the internet.

@UrsaMinor

Regard to my upper post, I have to tell you that I would be terrified, paralyzed, stuck, if i go to the circuloesceptico. I really haven´t the needed armor to be among these people.
Here in internet is easier, I can go away, close my computer, cry, and such, without making a ridiculous show.
Do you understand me?

@Noelle

Not at all. I´m not dating any man and no man is in my life for now (and I expect to keep that way for now)
I don´t know why, but I really find atheist men as more "masculine" and attractive. i think that when a man surrenders to God´s will is lacking of strength.
In women my perception is different, but it is also making a weak woman if she´s surrended to God´s will.

Basically for some reason, I find skeptic and atheist people so strong and safe to be with.
But despite that "secure aspect", I feel intimidate by atheist people, are harsh and I usually felt hurt whenever I related to them.

I think I´m afraid of getting closer atheist people (specially men). So being here is a continuous whiplash for my soul. But I think I need that.

And... thank for asking about my relationships and feeling, that has been sweet :)

Netizens should all be using a common decimal clock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time

All the time zones run on a 24 hour day.

I hate this, I'm sleeping and tons of comments pile up! (damn you italian time zone!)

Point was, I'm more spiritually satisfied without believing in god than I ever was believing in god.

Believing in god was chasing a spiritual high which always disappointed. When I gave up on that, I suddenly noticed everything I had been missing. And it's more beautiful and awe-inspiring than any imagined god could ever be.

@crileside, on "spirituality" and science—

I find myself on regular occasions frozen in place, dumbstruck, in awe of my own existence, in awe of physicality. I hold my breath, I breathe too fast, I sit still as a rock, I walk around in fascination...

All of these things from simply being alive. I've had a friend say to me "surely there must be something MORE than all of this?"

I can only reply that if all of this physical reality doesn't knock you on your feet, amaze you, and terrify you, then you haven't been paying attention.

People go to church and talk about how amazed they are at the glory of god, and the mystery of his being. They are not more "spiritual" in their beliefs than I am. They just have a naive, rehearsed spirituality.

I'm not a materialist in the sense that I only believe in what I can see (and neither are any other materialists), I simply do not believe that there is ANY differentiation between types of "real." There is no spiritual reality, nor is there a material reality... there is simply reality. Anything that affects reality is itself reality.

But WE are reality, not separated non-real (whatever the hell that means) observers. So we are reality observing itself. You are reality looking at itself, thinking about itself, categorizing elements of itself, and relating to itself. And all of this done as a particular instance of reality which you categorize as "ME"—the all important observer existing as a broader subcategory of "homo sapiens", which exists in the subcategory of the even bigger group "things which are 'alive,' whatever the hell that means."

I actually believe "all is one" as it were, but in the sense that we are, as consciousness-es, nervous-system-based optimization processes which evolved to fashion conceptual structures and which, as a result, fashion the conceptual structure "ME" to deal with observing that they observe.

Oops, stimulants making me spit out walls of text. This was supposed to be a two-line post. I need to go do something useful.

@crileside: reading over your posts yesterday left me confused. Today it left me chuckling. It may be that your quirky and energetic style takes getting used to, and in the process you end up misunderstood. I like you. I can't answer your questions. But I like you.

Do you have a particular young man who happens to be an atheist that you currently have your sites on? I would never suggest you attempt to change your personality to impress the boy. It won't work, and you're ignoring the fun and unique part of you. Go chatter to him like you do us. Give him a little time to get used to you. Don't get all broken-hearted if he doesn't. There are many fish in the sea, including the atheist type.

Is he cute?

For me. Being an atheist is due to lack of anything other than facts. Look at history. It’s littered with ‘godly facts’ that have since been shown to be made by no more than electricity. But to the person living in that time it must be god as there is nothing else to explain it.

As time moves along and more and more real evidence is uncovered. There is less and less to attach to ‘gods work’. Imagine a world in 1,000 years time. Everything has been explain and not open to question. Will people still believe in god. Of course they will. People either choose to ignore facts. Just read a bible! Or they have a nagging doubt that there MUST be something, as I can feel it.

Am I an atheist. Yes. Am I 100% sure. No. Why. Because I can’t prove there isn’t a god. So for me being atheist is about waiting for a fact to be proved before I can believe it. So by default I’m atheist due to lack of any that there is a god.

Crileside, have you ever heard of the Círculo Escéptico Argentino? I know that there is a very active chapter in Rosario, and I would be very surprised if there wasn't a chapter in Buenos Aires. If you are in that part of the country, you could meet and talk to some like-minded people. They also have a website with online forums.

http://circuloesceptico.com.ar/

@crileside: I have a degree in physics and I have been working to decrease my nerdiness myself.
I am now a almost professional teacher of Tango.
My job is teaching others to convey passion and romance through their movements.
And yet, I still love physics, biology and nature and still am a rabid skeptic, and all this allowed me to teach passion and romance much more effectively than most cooks blabbering about "energy" to describe anything they are too lazy to really understand.
Of all the people met in milongas, my students tell me that I (and another guy they met) am the only one that "dances with the soul".

Ok, thnx :) I´ll do it (tomorrow)

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