There is plenty of education beyond high school that isn't college. I do IT support for a small location of a pretty big corporation. I only had a networking certificate, but it was enough to get me that job. I've since gotten an Associates in Information Technology because my company paid for the tuition. There are several people well above me in the IT food chain that have no degree at all. They have certifications for various hardware / software products that are currently in wide use.

There is also lots of vocational training that would put you well above a high school education. Plumbers and electricians where I work make more money than I do with less responsibility. Welding, Truck Drivers, Carpenters etc.....

Education doesn't have to mean college, but I do agree that college is largely a business. I also agree that the debt most people rack up is ridiculous.

The thing is, what's the course of action to generate decent jobs for people without a college degree? We currently seem to be in an "education race" (think along the lines of an arms race) where you used to be able to get a job out of high school, then you needed a bachelor's, and now more positions are asking for a master's. This is partly to be expected in a world where technology is increasingly important. We could of course increase manual labor in building government projects, which would go a long way towards reducing unemployment, but that's only one piece to a complicated puzzle.

Noelle: I am not disagreeing with you or disputing this at all. I agree it sucks.

I am only saying that requiring people to take on tens of thousands in debt in order to do what are often rote (but better paid) jobs that don't require so much formalized education (see Kodie's very perceptive post up htread) is a questionable social policy. One point is that most new jobs don't "require" college education. These same jobs offer terrible pay and benefits, but rather than forcing people to compete for the fewer and fewer "decent" jobs (through formal education and the resulting debt) maybe the better approach is unionization and organizing workplaces so that the bad jobs are not so bad.

FO: Sure. High school should be better certainly.

@Brian: it's a matter of quality, not quantity.
Spend more into education and less in the military.
Have the kids learn methods rather than trivia.
Train and hire better teachers, make it into a respected and sought profession, so that instead of wasting several hours of their young lives, pre-college kids will learn something that is actually useful and makes them better human beings.

Fuck, how would we be better off if the scientific method, with some practical application, was better explained in the classes?
Where would we be now, if the pitfalls and weaknesses of our understanding were taught?

If there were more out of HS jobs available that provided a living wage and benefits, then there'd be a place for the young ones who aren't interested in a degree. I don't know about your neck of the world, but in mine those jobs are gone. My state was built on a failing auto industry. It's not only Detroit that was affected. Companies all over the state exist for the sole purpose of making a window or a mirror or a car door handle. Used to be one could get a good job at one of those companies straight out of HS and finish it out with a retirement pension. Those days are gone. If you want to do something out of HS here, you join the military, go to college, or try to find a minimum wage part time job and live with your parents.

What we are talking about is that college should NOT be so expensive and should not impose crippling debts...So, again, I agree with you.

but I am also expressing skepticism about whether society should be pushing ever growing formal education at ever increasing costs.

"Here is my only compunction, again, though...a society should not be structured in a way that the only route to dignity is through endless, ever growing, formal (institutionalized) education."

What country do you live in? My high school buddies who went out and got good union jobs instead of going to college owned nice cars, homes and luxury goods before I did. They will retire before I do. I'll make more money over my lifetime, but it often seems like they took the better deal.

What are you talking about? College is freaking expensive. I had a 6-figure debt in government loans by the time I finished and I'm still paying it off with interest. And it got me a job where I earn enough to pay lots and lots in taxes. They made a killing off educating me.

Can't disagree, Bill

Here is my only compunction, again, though...a society should not be structured in a way that the only route to dignity is through endless, ever growing, formal (institutionalized) education.

But...I am repeating myself. :)

"Does everyone need college? Probably not. Should college be easily available to everyone? Yes. The issue is not that everyone should have to get a college education, but that those of us who want it shouldn't have to struggle to get it."

This

Well...when the loos are all overflowing and there is litter in the halls, we'll see who is more important, a mere janitor or a "Vice President for Marketing and Community Outreach" LOL.

I have a white collar job, but I have few delusions about its amazing importance to the world!

...even uneducated, "unskilled" jobs should offer some dignity.

I've locked horns with management over this issue on a couple of jobs. Just because the custodial staff don't have college degrees doesn't mean you should treat them like shit. Besides, if their job is not important to the functioning of your business, why did you hire them? Hmmm?

Morpheus:

Excellent points, all.

But I want to highlight as well another main point (which responds to Kodie's THEY require it because they can)...even uneducated, "unskilled" jobs should offer some dignity.

Does everyone need college? Probably not. Should college be easily available to everyone? Yes. The issue is not that everyone should have to get a college education, but that those of us who want it shouldn't have to struggle to get it.

Now, if you're asking the broader question of how to help people live more informed, more successful lives through education, I'd say a serious revamping of America's high school education would be more helpful than having everyone go to college. College gives you tools to either work at a profession or improve your knowledge to a higher level. High school gives (or should, at least) you the basic skills to function in the world and be a responsible citizen. Currently there are a lot of high schools in the U.S. that fail miserably at teaching things as basic as sex ed, math, and health. If these topics were covered more effectively, I think that someone with "just a high school diploma" wouldn't necessary mean the same thing that it does right now.

The idea that college is the solution is not descriptive enough. I certainly would claim that I went to college because it was expected of me, because I was smart in school. I went to school for the wrong reasons and had a less than productive experience of it. College is a business, so really, anyone can qualify to get in A college, and gain a degree. Many jobs require a college education. At the last job I had as an administrative assistant, while I was a temp, they required a college education and had to turn down someone I thought was the most eager and capable for the position because she had a fake degree from an online college that had no credentials. There are two parts to this part of the tragedy - unless something awful happened during the interview, I felt like my boss had a mission to find a good reason not to hire her, and it felt just really embarrassing to make her provide proof of her education all the while, then having to break it to her that she'd wasted money on a piece of paper that doesn't mean anything to anyone.

That's what people are driven to. My job did not require a college education. After he hired another older woman with no college whatsoever, but years of life experience, she being apparently incompetent to me during the interview process, failed at the job (as I could have told you she would) and I was called later to fill in as a permanent employee. I know the other girl could have done very well. What, with my college education was so necessary? Nothing. But all summer, I couldn't find another job and was available. I rocked over and above the expectations of the position, that's what I did with my education but I wouldn't say a high school graduate could do it either. You do have to know spelling and grammar, and you have to have a grasp of how to be polite and professional - so most high school graduates could manage it. A lot of my job was throwing stuff out of the refrigerator before the weekend and vacuuming the conference room and ordering lunches. Some other of it was editing formal business letters my boss wrote. Jobs like that demand college graduates for absolutely no reason but that they can. Ergo, people need to have a college education to obtain such a job. Ergo, society pressures young people to go to college, whether they have grades or money or no grades and no money. Unless you want to bus tables.

College is a business.

Except for an occasional Santorum, college for everyone seems to be an ideal for many pundits, especially on the left. I certainly agree that college educaiton should be cheaper, and college degrees do add some value to society, but does that mean we should subsidize and promote college for everyone? What about those who do not want or need or desire formal college education?

I thought this was an interesting point over at Stop Me Before I Vote Again:

http://talkingunion.wordpress.com/2012/03/20/education-jobs-and-wages/#more-14396

"the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reports that in 2010
only 20% of jobs required a bachelor's degree,
whereas 26% of jobs did not even require a high school diploma,
and another 43% required only a high school diploma or equivalent."

"And according to the BLS, this isn't going to change
much by 2020, since the overwhelming majority of jobs
by then will still require only a high school diploma
or less."

we already turn out cohorts containing around a third with BA's

would any increase create over supply ? yup

"we need to stop fostering illusions that good
educations can ever substitute for the organized
collective action - in politics, in the workplace,
and in the streets - that will be required to reverse
the increasingly miserable the future."

What say you all? I imagine most of have college degrees, (Masters! LOL) but I could not even imagine going to university at current (rising far faster than inflation) cost levels.