People do do bad things because they are fallen and sinful. ALL people are fallen and sinful. One only need to go to the story of David to "get that" bman. He was called "a man after God's own heart" yet what did he do? He committed adultery, planned the murder of the husband of the wife he committed adultery with then denied it for close to a year before Nathan confronted him.

All men are sinful and we never do evil so fully and cheerfully as when we do it out of conscience.

As to your assertion: "Not all Christians believe that only good can come through God." Please explain. Are you saying good can come from evil, or that good can come from evil men? I will grant that evil men can do "good" things, but their doing "good things" doesn't make them "good men."

Hitler was an evil man but he was known for being a doting father. I'm sure Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer could be "nice." What was their ulterior motive however?

In other words, it is not the goodness of the fruit which causes the goodness of the tree, but the reverse.

I believe Scripture teaches that man, in his fallen estate, has liberty without ability to do good--as GOD defines good--because of his total depravity. He is free to do as he pleases, but he is not pleased to do good at all.

True liberty is to be made free from sin to become the servant of God. It means restored ability as well as freedom to be the children of God.

Ughhh. People do bad things. People do really good things. Whether or not they believe in God. That's a fact. To say that we're all born with a bent to the evil things, why aren't more babies murdering their stuffed animals and eating other babies?

Not all Christians believe that only good can come through God. Just as a counterpoint.

^
Good to know. You know where you stand and I know where you stand. Fair enough.

Mercy & Grace is free but ONLY to those whom God would turn his face of favor. There is NO mercy & grace to the man who thinks he needs none.

Caddy, I don't see how that relates much to anything I said, and I am not my own lord and savior as I have neither and need none. I have read the bible cover to cover and found it a very poor example of just about everything. Also in this or another thread you asked about christ,as in weather he existed,died and rose again to wash away our sins...and I would say no to all 3 questions, as far as mortality is concerned well it is a part of life,without death there is no life and vice-versa. Then again you invalidated your statement on mercy and forgivness in the statement...but as far as religon is concerned it isn't free as you must accept a god as your lord and saviour,in other words you agree to become a slave to god,what is free about that?

@WarbVIII

There are 2 ways to be your own Savior and Lord. One is by breaking all the moral laws and setting your own course, and the other is by keeping all the moral laws and being "very, very good." Humility is paramount. The people who confess they aren't particularly good or "open-minded" are moving toward God, because the prerequiste for receiving the grace of God is to know you need it.

Unbelievers need nothing. Believers understand just how dependent they are "EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY." Life is hard. Athiest will always be around telling us of our "crutch." They get sick too. They die too.

The good news is: Mercy & forgiveness must be FREE and unmerited to the wrongdoer. If the wrongdoer has to do something to merit it, then it isn't mercy, but forgivenness always comes at a cost to the one granting the forgiveness.

Thinking about our own mortality is "healthy" even beneficial. Read Ecclesiastes. I think it is the best book of Philosophy EVER written. I'm not alone in thinking that. Death is the touchstone, the criterion of how to live will compensate us for ignorance of worldly science, but knowledge of science will NOT compesate us for ignorance of how to live.

For believers, God is the "law-maker". We either deny it or accept it. The law NEVER intended for men to seek personal justification by meritorious works or the law. The law itslef presented salvation as a "gift" rather than as wages.

As Tim Keller so apptly stated it in his book, "Reason for God": "The main barrier between Pharisees and God is "not their sins, but their damnable good works."

Nothing WE DO saves us. What Christ did in space and time accomplished that for those whom He would draw to Himself.

Men will continue to mock God until their dying day, but Ecclesisates reminds us that they die too. Our lives are VERY short. Samuel Beckett said, "we give birth astride a grave." Pondering that and being "humbled" by it hopefully leads us to thoughts of our creator and where we stand.

Coffeejedi. No I can't, no more than I can explain -- and fully comprehend -- why a bright college professor can develop alzheimers and completely change.

There is always a short answer: We are fallen men and women. We get sick and die. Some of us die horribly, Christians & Atheists like. "Man is born to trouble," said Job, "as the sparks fly upward."

Trying to understand "why" will drive even a believer crazy. Job NEVER understood why he suffered as he did. Living and dying goes with the territory. Nobody gets out alive, unscathed or unbuthchered by "life."

hmmm, haven't watched the video..but this discussion does seem to be interesting and odd at the same time.

Caddy, if it is only christ/gods work that count..whats the point of life,or living a good and moral one? I would also say that although no one is born knowing laws,or good/evil or morality it does become rather apparent within say the first 3-5 years of life(not all of it but I would think the basics) with or without much teaching, observation of the world around you will suffice,at least the world of man as opposed to the natural world. Anyway morality as preached via bibles,korans, and torahs and other relegious tomes seems to create more evil and 'sin' than anything else that has ever existed(almost every genocide in the world has had a religious component as an example).

Elemenope, lack of a conscience does not automatically make one amoral nor evil I would think,and that lack also does not prevent knowledge of good and evil as much as creating a situation where one does not care which is done,though one could choose good over evil(granted the only example I kind of have for that is Dexter Morgan..probably not the best possible he being fictional).

Jeffery Dahmer became a born-again Christian! He's one of yours.

caddy, can you explain why psychoactive pharmaceuticals, or brain trauma (either injury or surgery) can change a person's behavior and personality for good or ill? If dualism was real, wouldn't the spirit be completely removed from the physical body?

Woa! Good question. Not sure I have the answer. I will point you to a book that speaks to this though by M.Scott Peck called "People of the Lie."
http://www.amazon.com/People-Lie-Hope-Healing-Human/dp/0684848597

Peck died a few years back. He was a Psychologist.

My short answer is: we live in a fallen world. Men are sinful. The Christian understanding is that ALL men are born devoid of God, morally deficient, sinful. Obviously not all men are Ted Bundy's and Jeffery Dahmers. As we've already touched on: Even Atheist & Agnostics can be "good moral" people. Some people are just more "deficient" than others, because their conscious' have been dulled time and time again.

On the other hand Romans explains pretty well why we "agree" with the law within us, even though all of us have suppressed it, gone our own way.

Romans 7:16-17 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Anywho: Pecks Book is EXCELLENT! A lot of insights into the "evil" mind. Highly recommend.

We aren't born knowing it--although as soon as the child is capable of understanding what is meant by "murder" and by "wrong", he is capable of recognizing that murder, in fact is wrong.

So how does one account for true psychopaths, that is, people whose limbic system simply does not physically engage when confronted with emotional or moral situations? People born literally without consciences and physically can never develop one?

^ By all means explain....

I feel this is an inadequate account.

All believers don't pull out that argument Ty. Atheist "behave" and are capable of being moral because they understand an ethical "moral" standard that is known by all men. For sure they aren't born knowing it.

When you can prove to me that certain moral principles are not only right for all, but at some level known to all, I'll concede. Natural law is a universal common sense of the human race, as well as the foundation of its uncommon sense. It makes a difference that they are 'right" for all; otherwise there would be nothing for moral reasoning and persuasion to be about. It makes a difference that they are known to all; otherwise, even though moral reasoning and persuasion would be about something, they could NEVER get started.

Do I think it is Innate? No We aren't born knowing it--although as soon as the child is capable of understanding what is meant by "murder" and by "wrong", he is capable of recognizing that murder, in fact is wrong. The natural law is not mere biological instinct--although the customs of almost all times and places more or less acknowledge it. The natural law is not just a deceptive name for moral law as known through the Bible--although biblical moral law acknowledges it, conforms to it, and extends it. The natural law is not the same as the theories that philosophers construct about it--rather it is the reality which the theories attempt, with greater or lesser success, to describe. And the natural law is not a law of nature in the same sense that gravitation is a law of nature--indeed, principles like gravitation are "laws" only by distant analogy. Why? A falling apple is not freely and rationally conforming its behavior to a rule which it knows to be right.

Scripture would allude to the fact that all men have the imprint, but suppress that imprint. My thesis,I am a sinful man just like you, and everyone else in this forum. All men are on equal footing in this regard. Being "moral" doesn't bring you closer to nor does it assume you know God. Being "moral" is a "work" and the believer understands that it is not his "work". Christianity is not so much about one's moral behavior but God's work in time & space. Our work accounts for NOTHING. Christ's work counts for everything.

*thinking* KILL! KILL! KILL! KILL! *thinking*

What are you guys talking about...

*thinking* ...kill...kill...kill...*thinking*

The believers also feel (or in their minds know for sure) that athesists live empty lives, not knowing why it is empty. All because they do not know jesus as their personal savior.

Yep. I love when believers pull out the "If I didn't have god, I'd be raping and murdering right now!"

isn't that the argument that christians use on why atheism is bad - because without God we'd all just go around killing eachother?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzsrbRd2_6E

So what I'm getting from this video is that it took the divine holy word of god to tell him to not be an asshole to his fellow man? If so, then that's pathetic.