Thank you "Ty" the Moddy. You are absolutely right.

You'd be surprised where I live how everyone knows someone or knows somebody who knows them. It isn't even that small of a city either lol.

There are some people who will make the up most opinion or judgment for someone based on first impressions or findings.

"Einstein himself was bi-polar and so am I. (All welcome to judge as you wish.) "

Why would anyone judge you for that? I often walk with a limp, and have a badly healed 'bouncers fracture' in my left hand that reduces its flexibility. While our problems may have differing symptoms, they are equally a (in)valid measure of our character. Medical problems are medical problems, and no one with any humanity in them judges another person because of them.

If you know your time is up, I don't see why not.

If you know you could have so much more time, I can see why you shouldn't.

If you could suicidally assist, and/or kill someone to say, cure cancer or aids...
Would you do it?

"If you can take a life, you can save a life." -Anonymous- (Harsh to grasp, I know from past experience's.)

"I'm not the best, but I'm far from the worst." -Masa Lee-

BTW whatIgot ... There are other ways to find a permanent solution to a temporary problem other than suicide. hehe ;)

Einstein himself was bi-polar and so am I. (All welcome to judge as you wish.)

i think suicide is a permanent solution to a (somewhat) temporary problem. it seems the more likely a problem is to be more than temporary (schizophrenia, bipolar I, extreme poverty, etc.), the more likely a person is to commit. suicide is a social, not an individual issue...

Kodie: Due to my current life, I have all but abandoned my earlier cynicism. I do sincerely live life is worth living. I did have a hard time as well, severe anxiety and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder can do a lot to fuck up your day. But I've gotten better at controlling those things (mostly because I'm finally enjoying myself in college, stress and mental anguish do a lot to heighten symptoms, and my life before this year was complete shit). I'm glad you're getting through your tough times, you too xy. Times are hard, and life is shit, but I sincerely believe that the good times that are experience are completely worth it.

I don't think I wrote this before, but 12 and a half years ago, based on an earlier experience, I brought myself to the emergency room, 7ish pm on a Friday night, because I was feeling some high emotional strain. I knew I needed help, but I was not suicidal. I only wanted them to set me up with some appointments so I could be ok eventually. You know, be my stepping stone. Another time I went to a different hospital in a different state, and possibly appeared to be in a different state of mind, but no matter. They sent me home with an appointment for the following Wednesday at the local clinic and a sample pack of paxil (I think it was paxil).

Rather than listen to me when I tried this a second time, they detained me in the ER area for several hours. I was crying so hard, I got a headache. They promised me Tylenol but it never came. They called my mom in the middle of the night, which probably freaked her out: Hello, Mrs. -----? This is St. ------ hospital, we have your daughter. Oh lord. I was really starting to panic they wouldn't let me leave, and I had the most tremendous headache. I ran down the hall to the bathroom to splash cold water on my head, they read that as another clue of "instability" when they didn't bring me any Tylenol or sit and talk to me whatsoever.

At 2:30ish AM, they confiscated my shoelaces and my jewelry and all my belongings went in a manila envelope. No discussion - they had decided I was suicidal, despite me telling them I was not. I swear I want help, just tell me when to see a doctor this week, I will show. But let me go home.

They put me in a weird cinderblock room and gave me my hospital soaps and towels. A guy down the hall was having some sort of breakdown and howling. I was extremely scared, and a headache that could punch a hole right through my face at this point. Still no care, no Tylenol. I sobbed on the bed for about 15 minutes when the lights came on. I was surrounded by medical staff and security personnel. On the count of 3, they pulled my pants down and shoved a needle in my ass.

The next morning, I woke up about 11 or so. They decided I could not have smoking privileges because I missed a mandatory NA meeting. Let me clarify that I neither had any drugs in my system at the time of my admission, nor really ever. Addiction to drugs was not my problem in the least. Furthermore, they had neglected to tell me of this meeting, so decided, not only was I suicidal when I wasn't, decided I had willfully skipped a meeting I didn't know about because I had been forcefully drugged to sleep the night (wee hours of the AM) before.

By Sunday, they moved me to the less serious ward, for I was put in the more serious ward to begin with because I was deemed dangerous (to myself or others, didn't matter). I had earned my privileges, and after 72 hours was up, I was sent home. It's for some reason, once you're admitted, you're also captive for a minimum of 72 hours.

I really do know some people need to be in hospital. My boyfriend who is bipolar just did 2 weeks and I visited him every day. I don't know why anyone else was there, and hopefully it was the right thing for them. I just feel what was decided for me was the wrong thing. I had no will, I went to ask for help, and they changed me. I am bitter toward the mental health professions as far as I'm concerned. My nurse was a total asshole when I was there. When I saw my boyfriend at his hospital, I knew what he was going through, when they didn't give him privileges. His anger at being treated like a child was real. They dose out privileges for good behavior rather than provide conditions that will lift spirits generally and promote better behaved patients.

If you are in hospital for another illness, you still have your faculties, personnel talks to you like a person. Without your mental stability, they keep patients like they are animals, I heard them talking about patients like they are animals. They don't know. Why do you think they are messed up? Why do you think they get sad or mad? Partly because they know how much it sucks to be a captive animal, and treated like a moron who doesn't know what is happening to them. On the one hand, they need to be there, but on the other hand, they are condescended to like they are children, overmedicated because they are too tough to handle. It is a difficult situation.

If they suspected I was suicidal, they never talked about it to me. I was led to believe there was some paperwork and then I could go home. The hospital treats people of any mental incapacity like they cannot understand what they've decided is best for them, not even let them know they are just doing their job, following the law on suspected suicide cases, not even sit in my room with me because I was scared, or bring me a Tylenol, even if it was 5 hours later; I was assaulted physically instead. I for sure would understand if they spoke to me like a person, it was my fault for describing something too colorfully or something. I have a very low trust for people in this difficult business. They are trained to be very clinical and that's not good for me as a patient, when basically my problem is when people just don't care. Where was the care that I needed? Not at the hospital.

This is only one reason I've decided psychological therapy is not for me. I have been to dozens of therapists over the years, and even after my vacation at St. -----, I tried. They suck as far as figuring me out and pointing me on the right path, so I just have to be ok without them. Thank goodness I do not have a serious mental health issue like bipolar which requires regular attention and medication for a lifetime.

I'm also glad xy is ok. I wrote earlier about my feelings about suicide, and I'm glad to get some clarity on not being in your right mind, so suicide would be a bad decision. I've only ever felt seriously bad, and consider suicide not to be my solution even when I am at my lowest, I hang on and it clears up within a few days. I'm farther away from that frame of mind now, but I still think I would have made that decision in my right mind. In my right mind now, I can look at the rest of my life and say it's not worth saving if I don't want to, if I'm too tired to keep trucking, etc. It's my life if I want to end it. It might be because I am older (or think I'm old enough and have been through enough). I think young people are too emotional and dramatic, although I don't know what a good "cutoff" age would be. When you are young, I don't think you know how many ways your life can improve, but you probably should get help and steer the ship back on course. I don't have a lot of personal support, I think people think for me, a life of loneliness and a cruddy job is good enough as long as I am alive. There's not much you can do with that if you don't have the means or the strength. When you're young, you can rest, you can recover, half your life isn't wasted in dead end jobs already, with nothing to show for it and nowhere to go. That is what I mean about being in my right mind. Realistically, if that's all I have, I can decide I don't want to live like that and die. It is realistic. Getting back on track to have the kind of life you thought you would takes a lot of effort, and the older you are, the less time you have, the more times you've tried, the better you know yourself, and I think you know when it's not going to happen. I do not agree that the law needs to intervene when people know themselves, but they can't take chances figuring out the difference. To stay alive and live like what? Alive is all they care about, just like the abortions - life is sacred, quality of life doesn't matter. But when you are young and you get help, you have time to achieve a different quality of life and stay on your meds, so have the energy and enthusiasm to achieve goals while they matter to you and not stagnate.

Yeah, the whole law enforcement thing is a huge problem in our society. That we would give the government the right to limit or prevent sovereignty over our bodies is problematic for a thousand reasons, and as it stands now, law enforcement has every right to deem a person "a danger to themselves" and take appropriate steps.

That ought to be an outrage.

@elizabethdamaro

i agree that it is difficult to tell if a person is being rational or not. as i noted, i had to leave before i could finish my thought as i am doing this at a library near where i am in treatment. i am in no way advocating the intervention of law enforcement. only a person's family and a psychiatrist/psychologist can judge them to be mentally competent or not. and in most situations people that are suicidal are not. i'm not saying there aren't people that are mentally stable that commit suicide. i'm saying it's a rarity.

also, thanks for the support guys. i hope i didn't miss anything exciting over the last 6 weeks.

hey, xy. I struggle with depression too. I know just exactly what you mean, and I'm glad you are still fighting the good fight! :)

Just seeing this.

I disagree about the prevention. In some regards.

Simply because the "judged in their right mind" is so subjective. Yes, the brain alters in its chemistry. But we skirt a fine line when we allow the law to step in and warrant someone "in need of help".

I can vote for prevention from friends or family... privately. To work to bring a person from the depression. But I'm vehemently opposed to intervention from any sort of law enforcement or government mandate regarding the issue.

Wow, XY, glad you're ok.

Wondered why you weren't around here or on xbox.

I'm glad you're still with us, xy.

having just gone through an attempt about 30 days ago(i haven't been around because i'm in treatment), i feel that i can give a unique point of view on this topic.

depression changes the way your mind works, in small, subtle ways. my experience started in december and built to a head in the first few days of April. i have dealt with my depression in the past and was quite healthy for the last 2 1/2 years. but once i let up just a little bit in my fight against it, it slowly started creeping back. first it led me to hold off on doing some school work until just before it was due. then i stopped doing the work at all. then i quit going to classes. and after that i thought that i had screwed up my life so much that there was no point in continuing, so i decided that i would end my life. if i had been in my right mind, even if i had still quit going to school, i would have asked for help and been able to work something out. but because of depression, i could only see that my life was over and it was pointless to go on. but i don't think i really wanted to die. deep down, where your subconscious lives or your soul if you want to call it that, i didn't want to die. i know this because i had ample chances and was once looking down from a rooftop. at the time i figured that it wasn't high enough to kill me and i really didn't want to survive my attempt. i drove around for a while and then the police found me(i had left a suicide note) and took me to the hospital. once there i decided that it would be better to keep fighting and take control of my illness. this experience has led me to believe that suicide should be prevented in almost all cases. people just aren't in their right mind to make that kind of decision. still, if a person can be judged to be in their right mind i think they should be allowed to end their own life.

it's a tricky thing to deal with though.

my time is up and i must before i can get to the end of my post. i hope to post more later.

I think suicide should be resisted as much as possible, and agree with Elemenope that it alters how you think.

I'm incredibly glad I wasn't able to kill myself. I didn't truly want to, I just didn't want to feel pain anymore. Everything felt meaningless and I enjoyed nothing I used to, no matter how hard I tried. I see now that had I killed myself, I would have hurt so many people and missed out on a lot.

There are, of course, more extreme cases where the future seems too bleak to bear. In those situations I can see suicide being a fair choice. I don't believe that the majority of suicides fall in this category. Yes, that is very mean to say. So I apologize to any I've insulted. At least, I hold this view for Canada, or North America, as it is the only culture I am strongly familiar with.
Many North Americans seem to be conforming to a trend of self-pity and weakness. Depression seems more like a style now than anything. I've met quite a few people who seem to enjoy wallowing in self-pity. I find this very agitating as it takes away from those who are actually suffering.
Though, the main point I mean to argue is how depression can alter your perception. I wasn't thinking rationally when I was depressed. Emotions like that aren't usually rational. Looking back on it it almost seems ridiculous. NOT to insinuate that your (or anyone else's) reasons for suicide are/were ridiculous, I'm just trying to say that depression can make things seem worse than they really are. Which in some cases is an incredible burden.

P.S - In case I've brought up something already discussed, I apologize. I tend to skim over the conversation once Caddy starts writing.

Thank you Daniel. This community obviously couldn't take any more of his truth. hehe

I've banned Caddy. Can't say I didn't give him fair warning. I was probably more patient than I probably should have been, but oh well. Problem remedied.

Well, so be that! It has always been my thought that certain atheist communities can only take so much truth. As long as ever one is patting each other on the back its just one big happy family. Things must not be evolving so well huh guys?: Guess the process hasn't had sufficient time to weed all us dissenter scoundrels out yet, huh? It's like the middle ages all over again: Just in reverse !!!

Oh, I'm fairly certain LMNOP can ban you...

If Daniel wants to Ban me, so be it. That's his decision, not yours.

^
I've never been a big fan of "The Sinners Prayer" either, Christinerica. Coerced, or repeated words mean nothing.

Also: Glad you have no "dark impulses" !

RE: July 17th 1996 @ 2021. Sorry for your loss. Life is harsh, no doubt about it. The problem of Evil is real. We see that from Job. Man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward. Then we die. Meaning and purpose exists or it doesn't.

A good friend of mine died early in 1999, hit by a car, killed. After the funeral service, the question lingered on the minds of mourning family members and friends was "Why did something like this have to happen?" It is the same question people through the ages have asked whenever tragedy strikes. Why do bad things happen to good people? And what does it say about God that such things occur? Just think what the friends and relatives of the almost 3000 people who lost their lives in the terrorist attacks in NYC an & Washington on 09/11/2001, must have wrestled with.

And what about the Tsunami a few years ago and Haiti today? Suffering exists, for sure and you and I will ( and have ) both suffer in this life. I could die a horrible death at the hands of another man tomorrow. The Christian truth explains why we suffer and die. Knowing the truth doesn't make it any easier when we are going through it. I had to watch my uncle die, gasping for breath back in September. I distinctly remember my Aunt asking me "but Steve why does He ( God ) let us suffer so?" I could only reply what a portion of what Dorothy Sayers replied to her: "for whatever reason God chose to make man as he is -- limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death -- He had the honesty and courage to take His own medicine. Whatever game He is playing with His creation, He has kept His own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from man that He has not exacted from Himself. He has Himself gone through the whole of human experience, from the trivial irritations of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation, defeat, despair, and death. When He was a man, He played the man. He was born in Poverty and died in disgrace and thought it well worthwhile."

If we say otherwise, our lives ARE indeed empty and meaningless as you say: We are here one day and gone tomorrow. Nothing anybody does really matters.

Likewise Dostoevsky understood our suffering as well when he wrote: "I am convinced that the hurt will form a scar and then become smooth, that the whole sorrowful comedy of human contradictions will disappear like a miserable phantom, like a ...weak, human, Euclidean understanding the size of an atom, and that finally at the end of the world, in the moment of eternal harmony, something so precious will appear that will be adequate for all hearts, for the stilling of all dissent, for the atonement of all blood that has been spilt, that will be adequate not only for the forgiveness, but also for the justification of all that has happened to man."

Nah, I'm good.

No, you very much are not. Look, you've made your opinion clear on this issue, and pushing it further is not only going far off topic, but is also causing harm to this community. Either you are oblivious to this, and should take this opportunity to reassess what exactly you are trying to achieve, or you are indifferent to it, in which case Daniel probably should just ban you and be done with it.

Bless you for allowing me my life as i choose to live it.

Morals don't come from a god. I seem to have found mine myself. I know innately without having proclaiming the sinners prayer, that I shouldn't shoot you or anyone else. I seem to be at peace with the world without your jesus. No dark impulses to put rocks in some old persons hubcaps, no sudden desires to blow up a bus and its occupants...mmm without religion there wouldnt have been a 911 or mayhem in the mideast.

The real world...having been a retired coast guard aircrew person, I spent sometime in the real world. A moment in the real world occurred on July 17th 1996 at 2021 over the ocean near Long Island. 230 men women and children vanished and died a horrid death. We searched for survivors for days and all that was found was the empty grey ocean with fading fires from left over jet fuel.

Where was your deity (that in your view) has the power, the fore-knowledge but not the compassion to prevent? What where the results of all the prayers of the families for those about to lift of the tarmac at JFK that evening?

Your deity was silent, your deity was impotent, your deity wasn't there. Your deity didnt care. Your deity doesn't exist, at least in the form you think.

This is the force you want me to believe in? This is the belief system I should proclaim?

These are the results of intercessory prayer for someone. Nothing.

Like your empty belief system, you have nothing to offer except excuses.

Nah, I'm good.

That has gone quite far afield of the original topic of suicide and has gotten quite nasty besides. Caddy, if you want to talk about moral realism and universal moral instinct, by all means start a thread.

^
Christinerica

...and people have been deciding that for themselves since the beginning. There's nothing new under the sun. Your key phrase is, "I will not grant." You don't have to grant me anything Christinerica. Your norm is simply this: "I may impose whatever I want to, on whomever I please, for whatever reason captures MY imagination." That was also the adolescent mass murderer Eric Harris's stated beliefs: "My belief is that if I say something, it goes. I am the law, if you don't like it, you die."

Put the proverbial shoe on the other foot Christinerica. What if one day you meet up with somebody like Harris who is simply acting and saying exactly what YOU are saying and says in effect: "My will trumps yours. You don't like it, tough" and then shoots you? The question is, did Harris KNOW the law within him that states "People should not murder?" Sure he knew it. He chose to suppress it however, just like you are suppressing it here. You haven't changed the moral law, however. When you are dead and gone, all your bereaved family will understand perfectly that what this man did--in taking your life--was W R O N G! That doesn't bring you back though does it?

This is the real world Christinerica. People live by their own standards on a daily basis. People also die because other people have suppressed those things in them they know to be true but choose their own "way." Are they right?

You call my "brand" baloney, but I don't see you saying much of anything that helps me to understand that you really understand the ramifications of your words. You aren't even arguing a point that goes beyond the childish notion of whining. You simply want to live life by your own rules. I say, fair enough. People have been saying that from the beginning. As long as you know what the consequences are for that standard...so be it to you.

Seems simple to me. I decide my path, you yours. When i decide the wheels are in the well, then i will depart. I WILL NOT grant your beliefs any authority in my life. So we start on equal ground.

Your faith is guided by something unproven. Mine by what i know is real.

No amount of circular arguments will persuade me to follow what you believe or what is written by people that had no concept of science. You are just a salesman that continues to hawk a product that has never been proven as real.

People are no longer buying your brand of baloney. Its long since rancid and green; it reeks of death.

^

But of course! I've argued from that premise and admitted as much. But I also argue from a Natural law premise that you have yet to answer. I presuppose something because there is something, Kodie. Things had a beginning, right? Complex things don't just spring into being "by chance." There is nothing chancy about it. Even Dawkins argues that. Design versus chance is the false alternative.

"The argument from improbability," says Dawkins "states that complex things could not have come about by chance. But many people define 'come about by chance' as a synonym for 'come about in the absence of deliberate design." (p. 114, The God Delusion )

and

"Creationist 'logic' is always the same. Some natural phenomenon is too statistically improbable, too complex, too beautiful, too awe-inspiring to have come into existence by chance. Design is the only alternative to chance that the authors can imagine.
Therefore a designer must have done it. And science's answer to this faulty logic is also always the same. Design is not the only alternative to chance. Natural selection is a better alternative. ( 121 ).

So, let's consider this. Dawkins admits in multiple places that the "appearances" are against him:

"Who, before Darwin, could have guessed that something so apparently designed as a dragonfly's wing or an eagle's eye was really the end product of a long sequence of non-random but purely natural causes." ( 116 ).

Now look closely at this quotation. These magnificent organs ( and scadzillions like them ) are "really the end product of a long sequence of 'non-random' but purely natural causes.' Well, he has to say that because he is arguing that chance and natural selection are two different things. But the foundation of natural selection is mutation. How do mutations occur? Randomly or non-randomly? Ah, exactly so.

Dawkins ( and you ) might want to qualify his point here and grant that the mutations are random, dealt out of the deck by a blind-folded dealer, but then go on to say that this point really was that while the mutations themselves are random, the survival of the lucky critter that received a beneficial mutation ( by chance ) is not random. That's not what he said, but let's allow him to qualify it. The increased odds of survival are, I grant, explicable as a non-random thing, provided something happens that actually increases a creature's ability to adapt to his environment.

So, Kodie, I do presuppose God and believe he fills those gaps in knowledge I don't have the same way you fill them. Stating I am wrong doesn't make it so. Surely you are aware of that fact. It was people like Chesterton, Lewis, Sayers, rather than begging the world to believe, they simply told the truth. The truth you can't deny becomes more confusing when you listen to and actually READ Dawkins. But let's say you haven't read him. Ok. We can still argue from the Natural law that you and I live by every single day of our life. We both have been guilty of trying to suppress it, but in the end we can't deny it. Why? Because you can't change what is written in stone.

Two posts that did nothing to answer my post on WHY you live by an innate law and standard that you both rail against yet know exists and can't deny.

What part of "that's a different topic/stick to the topic/do you have anything relevant to the OP? If no, ask it somewhere else" do you NOT UNDERSTAND? How can you accuse people of not answering YOUR question when it's misplaced? Everyone has to tell you over and over again, but you are unwilling to listen. You want special treatment, but you're being rude to begin with, and dense.

^
Two posts that did nothing to answer my post on WHY you live by an innate law and standard that you both rail against yet know exists and can't deny. It had no Biblical quotes for you to decry, no lofty words of Jesus spoken from Sermons on Mounts, just real, undeniable, truth that you both *** know*** and did not even attempt to answer.

Natural law touches EVERY aspect of our lives, even the horrible reality of suicide. The common moral truths are no less plain to us today than when Augustine spoke about them in the 3rd 4th centuries. Our problem is not that there isn't a common moral ground, but that we would rather stand stand some where else. We are not in Dante's inferno, where even the sinners acknowledge the law which they have violated. We are in some other hell. The denizens of our hell say they don't know the law--or that there is no law--or that each makes the law for himself. And I submit that you all know better. That's why you have no answer for it other than mocking and scoffing. People mock other people when the sense they have been pushed into a corner. Their only reaction is a childish one to fight back, not with words, reason, logic, and truth, but with simple ad hominems and corny laughter.

The most vigorous atheist in the West has grown up in a world in which love and justice are ideal. But such ideals have no objective referent outside of the biblical accounts and the moral law that we know we can't deny. We can only suppress it. That's all I see here from the two posts above. You can't even answer why one thing is wrong and what makes a thing right given your presupposition of some sort of pie-in-the-sky individual morality.

Ha ha. I love the way Christinerica comes along and then with her FIRST POST just absolutely nailed it with what everyone is thinking. Nailed it like Christ on the cross.