So why is your avatar 'It's not Lupus'?

My original choice for gravatar picture was a photo of a guy who is holding a book in front of his face with the title "The Power of Books" and his head detonating messily behind the book. Unfortunately, the text-title on the book was too small to be legible at gravatar sizes, so I went to a picture that just plain amused me; there's something about Hugh Laurie glowering that is intrinsically funny, and the Shepard Fairey style puts it over the top. For some reason I find the "it's not lupus" quote to be indicative of my style, too, to always reject the easy or apparent answer and dig deeper.

Funnily enough, at another comment board that I frequent, I attracted a personal troll who named themselves "it's lupus" who harassed me for about a week before getting booted.

Ishmael was by no means the worst troll to show up here. I'd say that title is still held by she-who-must-not-be-named. It was transparently clear that many of her comments were made to insult other posters/incite dissent rather than to discuss a topic. And her insistence that you were Not Allowed to define your terms was insane on the face of it.

I'm with Revy. Troll-baiting can be an amusing sport if you're really bored, and it can be good because you can learn new stuff while doing your homework, but most of the time it isn't worth the effort. It is better, in my opinion, to take the high road and just ignore trolls rather than turn their own tactics back on them.

Noni juice guy and his rage at the imagined disrespect toward the noble sport of Volleyball was quite entertaining for a while. I agree that banning someone should be considered as the doomsday weapon and used only when all other options have been exhausted. Unlike the denizens of creationist/ fundie sites I'm (and I assume most people on this site) feel secure enough so I'm not afraid that being exposed to a different opinion will destroy me and who know maybe one day one of the trolls will actually share with us that killer argument, the irrefutable proof for the existence of god they all claim to have.

Noni juice guy? Yeah, I banned him. Or at least I marked so many of his comments as spam because he was trying to sell noni juice that the spam filter decided all his stuff was spam from now on. There was an amusingly angry rant from him caught in the spam filter afterwards in which he accused me personally of being a dastardly librul or something, I dunno.

I had used this one when I worked in an office. I guess that might be irrelevant but so is Ishmael.

I don't like people getting banned too frequently or suddenly. A while ago, remember, Daniel had posted a letter from a weirdo guy the eve seeds something... Bruce??? I can't remember his name. Everyone was saying ban the troll, ban the troll. I mean, he posted to respond in a thread about him and didn't find his way out of the fence, I say, what is the problem. Other people, like caddy... gah. Hated caddy. It's just tiresome to keep trying against someone who insists we agree to several impossible things just to stay on the same page with them. We are not on the same page, and we are never getting to the same page, we're just not coming over to your page. Then they start to get abusive, we are censoring them, we're so mean because we're not agreeing to their terms and definitions. BYE!! The guy we had over Thanksgiving week, I already can't remember his name, noni juice. People like him aren't fun more than a couple days, tops. I don't even know if he was banned or reached the end of his vacation. I won't mention who shall not be mentioned, I didn't get to play with her too much before she went and gone gazoo, it was out of my hands, but it was a firey show. I was very impressed!

Generally, I can understand, even though it's common enough among trolls, where people would be afraid to post dissent to the overall theme and pre-emptively accuse regulars of wanting to censor them or have their finger on the ban, ready to pop them if they say "Jesus". That may happen on other forums. I can't say all places are as patient. I remember when I started posting here, a regular poster over-reacted to something (he misunderstood that) I'd said and it turned into a big hassle right off the bat. I kind of felt doomed, but it all got straightened out [thx to a little help from Elemenope :)]. I try to be nice, but I am also gifted with impatience. To bring up Ishmael, I was instantly impatient of him, which is not how I usually try to be. Like I said in another thread, I'm not exactly warm about a lot of things, or a lot of people. I like everyone, but I don't do the cute little things people do to.. sort of clique. This has been true everywhere I go and post on the internet. I'm not a nerd. I'm not that smart. I write way too long. - and nobody (no reg) has kicked me in the shins since the day I got here. Just the one, and he turned out to be atypical in attitude.

That's just to say, everyone deserves a little bit of a chance to be nervous meeting new people and making their peep. If they think they might be banned, that may have happened somewhere else, or they have preconceived notions that atheists are assholes - we don't tolerate religion, therefore, we may not tolerate talking to religious people. That's poor logic, but hey. You're not our neighbor or our brother making daily life situations uncomfortable; we're here voluntarily waiting to be shown evidence and arguments that you bring, and existing as a resource to educate and commune with seekers of information, and so we like to know what they have to say, and make it a little difficult (in a fair way) for them also, just due to the subject matter and no other reason, really.

I would wholly expect if I went to a Christian forum - they might ban ME, and if they didn't, they would be difficult to convince of anything I had to tell them. If things ended up too bitchy, I would expect to be the banned one over the reg; but I would not feel that I had won an argument if I got the last word, nor validated from being banned that they are afraid of the truth (I know they are anyway, lol). Their policies might be different and stricter, I might be banned quicker, or get sticky-trapped in some nonsense and turn into a werehole.

I've been banned before from a major interior decorating site for calling bullshit on one too many thing after a long time posting, and enough clever posts that some people loved to read them, and very often made me blush with their compliments. Afterwards, I was a little bitter, but I hate even looking at that site now - it is no fun wanting to make a remark and not being able to; I get nothing from just looking/reading it, so I must have really hated it. I've had warnings on a games-related forum. I don't know why I cared so much because I'm really not a nerd. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :) Oh yeah, I forgot the one time I was threatened with a lawsuit for not-really libeling a woman who also was a lawyer who also turned out to be a mental case (and there, I've done it again -HA!) and an attention whore, and the admin made me apologize to her (she threatened to sue him/the organization that owned the board also) anyway. Good times.

Anyway, I really don't care what trolls or banned people think. Unless they care so much that we get a lot of heavy traffic from their friends/sock puppets (and that just seems like a lot of effort for a normally socialized person - big tip-off), they will probably forget in a few days, and they will still have been stupid. If people want to discuss with them, like I normally would, fine. I agree with Nox that it may benefit lurkers and later google searches that stumble on a thread to read a real response even if that other person there won't take the lesson. If they become tedious and easier to play with, several fine posters are excellent at that and I find it amusing and would be sad if that had to stop too soon. I also find about a whole day without the internet and everything moves on. Even if I couldn't wait to respond to something yesterday, I can't get into it today, it just cools off, and the world doesn't end if I don't get my word in. I think most people just don't care once they've gone away. They are looking at something else and trolling somewhere else, then that must be really what they like to do, so who cares?

It's a real classic.

So why is your avatar 'It's not Lupus'?

Or it could just be this: http://xkcd.com/386/

That used to be my desktop picture.

I think there is actually some benefit to poking trolls. But it isn't for the benefit of the troll.

It is probably a safe assumption that 99% of what you tell them fall on deaf ears. But on the internet it is not only the ears of your opponent that are in play. How many other people will read your debate afterward? People who's ears are perhaps not entirely deaf.

Pretty much every time I get in an argument with someone on the internet I am quietly assuming that nothing I can possibly say will change this person's opinion. But I am also assuming that there will be slightly more readers than commenters on any given thread. The benefit I alluded to earlier is for them.

There is an unfortunate reality of the internet that gives someone extra perceived credibility for getting the last word. Banning trolls is a way to make them feel persecuted, but ignoring them is a way to make them feel undefeated (If you want an awesome example of this look at rob on "Visualizing Biblical Contradictions" over on the front page).

Some statements just need to be countered. It doesn't matter that the person you're arguing with won't listen. Someone will. Someone who is not so set in their ways will stumble across some argument, see your words side by side with your prey and say to themselves "this Nox fellow has a good point, and this guy over here is clearly f*ckin nuts". Even if it doesn't work out that way it's better not to let their words stand unchallenged and have the undiscerning view them as right. Unfortunately you can not count on a self evidently wrong statement to be self debunking, and often people who hold what seem to be wrong opinions are simply not aware of all the information.

That is why I say baiting trolls is a noble effort...

Or it could just be this: http://xkcd.com/386/

No, I didn't ban him. He was silly and ignorant, but he didn't do anything that I thought merrited the ban-hammer. Just a quick Harry Potter quote to remind him to wind his neck in slightly. Of course, I can't speak for Daniel and Vorjack, either of whom might have banz0red the troll.

With the little dust up over Ishmael, I wanted to re-visit free speech, trolls, private forums and censorship.

To get the blatantly obvious out of the way:
A private place, whether on the internet or a physical location in the world, should be allowed to limit access based on any criteria that the owner sees fit.
Censorship by private parties is, and should be, perfectly legal.
Trolls suck, and just want attention.

I was thinking about how I handle real world trolls, and how that relates to how I handle them in cyberspace. For me, the interaction is the same. If I have time, and I'm sufficiently bored, I'll sit and poke sticks at the troll until I tire of the game. Just like walking down a street in a city, I have blinders on that allow me to avoid eye contact with the mentally unbalanced or desperate attention seekers. Ishmael tried to badger me, but I had a serious question (which none of you answered, damnit~!), so I just skipped over his post.

People who move from rural areas to big cities learn that skill of avoidance quickly and easily. The sidewalk trolls are passed by without a glance. There are people who stop to talk, gawk or argue with them (usually tourists), but they are by far the minority. What is so different about the internet that makes it so difficult to avoid those who you would normally pass without comment?

When it comes to banning, I am usually against it. Nothing gives the paranoid or the delusional more self assurance than getting banned. It confirms their opinion that their ideas are so dangerous, or infectious, that merely letting others be exposed to them is too dangerous to 'the establishment'. Locking them out confirms to their mind that they are on the right track. The street preachers are few and far between. The ridicule and scorn they receive is often enough to keep all but the truly deluded off the soapbox. Will that way of handling them ever seep into the intertubes? Will people develop a reading filter that allows them to just skip over the inane or the obtuse? Lacking a reaction, will the trolls get bored and go do something else?

I have to admit, often I'm part of the problem. I'll willingly bait the trolls if it's a slow day and I'm bored. Ill gladly cut and paste from talkorigins.org when arguing with a creationist, or from realclimate.org when trying to educate a global warming denier. I'm confident that 99% of what I tell them falls on deaf ears. I guess the only benefit that comes from it, is that I often learn some new information while trying to do their research for them.

So did you ban Ishmael? If you did, do you think it will discourage him?