Kodie
Member
As I said earlier - sexual beings are different than sexual objects. It's only a few posts up. Everyone should be healthy.
Also, "dressing sexy" is not the same as "seeing yourself as a sexual being." It can be either confidence or lack of confidence, want for attention or fear of lack of attention. But blaming the "victim" is ok, men can't help but look at them if they want to dress that way!
UrsaMinor
Member
You can't wear clothes that are made to seem attractive and then not expect to garner attention.
That is true. I guess I feel that there is often a conflict between what women want for themselves, and what other people want for them, and how pressured women feel to conform to other people's wants (particularly men's wants).
It's very hard to find a man who feels pressured as to how to dress, and even rarer to find a man who feels pressured to dress in a way that sexualizes his body.
"Not sexualizing oneself also attracts attention"
I don't think this is true at all. I have a lot of friends that are girls who don't wear make-up and don't try to sexualize themselves, and they don't garner "not-at-all-pleasant" attention. I don't know of a single guy that would look at a girl not wearing make-up and go "Disgusting."
"Maybe you don't notice it, and you think that is all washed away, but it is still a lot like this. Really."
I notice that many uber-conservatives still feel this way, but our mainstream culture has certainly moved away from this sort of a message.
"As I said earlier - sexual beings are different than sexual objects. It's only a few posts up. Everyone should be healthy."
I'm referring to the kind of attention taht Ursa was illuminating the woman in the article felt. I don't think that it was referring to "sexual object" type of attention, at least that was the picture that Ursa seemed to be painting.
Kodie
Member
So you think a woman deserves a predatory attitude if she dresses the way she wants to? I mean, explain it to me. It sounds like what you're saying is that "the easy solution" to keep men from looking at them is to not dress in any way that they would want to.
I personally do exactly that.
However, you seem to be saying it's their fault men are just pigs, and that they're justified in being pigs if women dress a certain way - that's the conservative attitude. A liberal attitude would say she should dress to make herself feel comfortable, whether that be kind of sexual or not, whether she is trying to get attention or not. You don't seem to feel the latter, you are still blaming the woman for looking too hot and deserve whatever looks she gets.
No, I do not think you understand at all. Also called, "mansplaining."
Elemenope
Moderator
...and they don't garner "not-at-all-pleasant" attention.
Are you sure you'd notice if they were? I don't mean this as a dig at all, but often times social signaling is difficult to pick up if you aren't in the group being signaled at; witness white people's general blindness to white privilege, even when it plays out right in front of our eyes.
I don't know of a single guy that would look at a girl not wearing make-up and go "Disgusting."
I know a few. It is likely that your social group officially disapproves of such crudeness, and so even if someone was thinking it they wouldn't share the reaction with the group. And that's a good thing, to a certain extent. But I've definitely been amongst my co-genderists and heard such comments freely, routinely given.
UrsaMinor
Member
Actually, in the original article, I think it was strongly implied (but not explicitly stated) that it was primarily sexual attention that she wanted to avoid. But there's a whole lot of other behavioral baggage that goes with male-female interactions in our culture, even if the man is not directing sexual attention at the woman. So I could be wrong about the author's intent.
Kodie
Member
As I explained in not a few posts, I'm still objectified by modern men my age or younger, or older. If I wear a skirt once in a while, for example, I'm told I should wear them more often, as to show off my legs.
I have a brain, what's this about my legs that's so important?
"Are you sure you'd notice if they were?"
These girls aren't exactly hesitant to point out social inequities in regards to gender. I can safely say I would not only notice, but I would hear about the occasions even if I weren't present. Also, this was in an incredibly socially conservative part of Arizona. Not exactly the beacon of gender freedom. But, of course, there's no way I can know for sure.
"I know a few."
Is it a widespread view among anyone you know? This is an incredibly general topic, of course there are going to be outliers. I'm talking about a general consensus.
"l believe that once having a bit of back hair is no longer considered "gross" in the mainstream. Pet peeve of mine."
Like... girls having back hair? How does this have to do with the idea of a woman's role being specifically to reign in a good husband?
"I have a brain, what's this about my legs that's so important?"
This kind of thing is exactly what I'm talking about. This is not being objectified. That's being seen as a sexual being, who has nice legs. In fact, LRA said it best: you can be both a sexual being and an intellectual one. The two are not mutually exclusive, and complimenting your legs in no way is demeaning your intelligence.
UrsaMinor
Member
I have a brain, what's this about my legs that's so important?
Good question. Are people telling you that you should show off your legs because they like to see them? Or because they think you should be following a female social dress convention? Are the people telling you this mostly men, or mostly women, or an even mix?
I have a brain, what's this about my legs that's so important?
Bingo.
It's also ridiculous that when a woman (especially a famous one) is described in the media, she's described by her physical beauty in addition to her abilities. Your average Helen Mirren article will likely mention her being sexy yet no one would bother saying that about Michael Caine. Whether Helen is attractive or not has nothing to do with her acting skills.
If Katy Perry was considered ugly by popular standards, she'd likely be far less famous. Personally I find her repugnant but that's mostly because of the schlock she performs.
@Eudaimonist?
Obviously I meant that for guys. For all my talk of being "above" mainstream ideals of beauty, I still have difficulty going to the pool in my building unless I've taken the razor to the couple of patches on my back side. It's one of my more irrational insecurities.
Kodie
Member
I once.... several times, knew several guys who loved to see women in skirts. One of them liked imagining the "easy access," and one of them like to see on a windy day, who was wearing underwear or not.
I don't feel comfortable wearing skirts, knowing that, but mostly don't wear them that much because I just don't like them. And I resent people telling me "how" I look "better" to "them," yes, men, yes my grandmother or my mother, or other women, but it doesn't usually come from any women who aren't in a position of pseudo-authority (i.e. my mother), and I realize men think it's a compliment, but it's an objectifying commentary on how they approve of me and when they approve of what I'm wearing, for whatever innocent or sick (see: above) reason they have for mentioning it.
"It's also ridiculous that when a woman (especially a famous one) is described in the media, she's described by her physical beauty in addition to her abilities. Your average Helen Mirren article will likely mention her being sexy yet no one would bother saying that about Michael Caine. Whether Helen is attractive or not has nothing to do with her acting skills."
WHAT?! You must not read many articles about Tom Cruise, or Daniel Craig, or Leonardo DiCaprio. The number of times their sexuality is referenced in movie reviews is pretty astounding. Also, a good deal about being in the movie industry is looks. People like to watch attractive people do things, whether they are men or women.
"It's the "You should wear more skirts, I enjoy looking at your legs," you missed it."
I still don't see a problem with that. Would you feel as negatively if someone said, "You should wear more blue, it brings out your eyes"? Is it just because they are looking at your legs?
"Obviously I meant that for guys. For all my talk of being "above" mainstream ideals of beauty, I still have difficulty going to the pool in my building unless I've taken the razor to the couple of patches on my back side. It's one of my more irrational insecurities."
You quoted my comment about women's gender roles in society, so I have absolutely no idea how I was supposed to take it. This sounds like a personal problem, though. I'm sorry you have to go through that.
Elemenope
Moderator
Is it a widespread view among anyone you know? This is an incredibly general topic, of course there are going to be outliers. I'm talking about a general consensus.
I would say yes. Generally, when men are among men, we talk amongst ourselves like pigs. You and I are outliers in this regard. It tends, in my experience, to differ in frequency and severity among different groups, with individual small groups of friends having widely variable internal social codes of acceptability. Overall, though, these rules of social comity when talking amongst groups of men, will breach the comity (especially on sexual matters) expected by many women.
Kodie
Member
It makes me self-conscious that I'm not dressing myself adequately enough to please people, because I don't dress to please anyone but myself, and I mostly like to be comfortable, and depending on the setting, neat and well-groomed and within the standard dress code, fuck all.
However - you say if women don't like this attention, they shouldn't dress this way. So women should also like it when they get attention they don't want, or like being objectified and take it as a compliment? So if I don't dress this way, and people encourage me to dress like I don't normally like to dress, that's still not getting to you yet?
"Overall, though, these rules of social comity when talking amongst groups of men, will breach the comity (especially on sexual matters) expected by many women."
This is certainly true, but what men say in private to other men and what men actually believe and practice socially are completely different things. I've said some astoundingly sexist things when just around men, but it's done in jest and not meant to be an accurate reflection of how I believe women should actually operate in society.
You quoted my comment about women's gender roles in society, so I have absolutely no idea how I was supposed to take it. This sounds like a personal problem, though. I'm sorry you have to go through that.
My bad...the posts are difficult to keep up on, contextually speaking.
I appreciate the comment but the problem is really only one for me because I choose to make it such. Comparing that with what Kodie's been sharing does remind me that I have little to whine about. Besides, it's not like I'm Robin Williams hairy. Nor should it matter.
"I'm not saying the media doesn't do the same with men but with women it's a given that they will be objectified." & "So women should also like it when they get attention they don't want, or like being objectified and take it as a compliment? "
Wait -- is commenting on a woman's beauty objectifying them?
Saying "You should wear skirts more often, you have nice legs" is not an objectifying statement in my opinion. In order for a comment to "objectify" someone, I think it has to deny their autonomy or personhood and in some way disregard their feelings/concerns. I don't think complimenting your legs and saying you should wear more skirts is somehow assaulting your personhood.
"So if I don't dress this way, and people encourage me to dress like I don't normally like to dress, that's still not getting to you yet?"
If you wore a skirt and someone said that you should wear them more often, no, that is not "getting to me" yet. Sure, a comment about "easy access" is objectifying and demeaning, but that's an outlier and I doubt the intention that the original comment intended.
"I appreciate the comment but the problem is really only one for me because I choose to make it such. Comparing that with what Kodie's been sharing does remind me that I have little to whine about. Besides, it's not like I'm Robin Williams hairy. Nor should it matter."
I have a similarly irrational discomfort with my small nipples. Like, unusually, weirdly small nipples. I feel your pain. I hate that Kodie feels objectified, but I really don't think that is the intent behind that sort of comment.
Kodie
Member
I guess I win the prize for knowing Fred was talking about his own back and not hairy-backed women. It does go both ways, sometimes, but not so much that I notice men care as much as what women think of them. All the men I've ever known are pretty much "take me as I am," if they are happy with whatever that is or however they style themselves to look. A few get insecure about male-pattern baldness, maybe the size of their penis, and really rather rely on women to stroke their ego (it's ok, you're still ok), turn around and say, that woman's got a booty on her, that woman is a butterface, etc. Some nerve.
You must log in to post.
