UrsaMinor
Member
The topic has come up, oddly enough, in the thread on having sonograms before an abortion. It seems to me that it should have its own thread.
I do not have an ethical objection to eating animals. I'm an omnivore who eats a lot less meat than the average American, because A) a meat-heavy diet is not optimal and B) animal husbandry as it is currently practiced is environmentally destructive, especially where cattle are concerned.
Where do other people stand on the issue?
Kodie
Member
1/2
I give it a lot more thought sometimes and less thought other times. Usually I just give in to habit, that it is easy to lapse into. I am sometimes able to feel for the animal and its life conditions as well as its death conditions, and then at the position of being able to compartmentalize poor, sad, animals from the food and clothing. I say compartmentalize because the market makes that easy to do. Sometimes I try to be more conscious of it, and sometimes I decide that it is futile and I'm just one person.
PETA gets a lot of flack but if you are intent on becoming a vegan, I've found them to be a good online resource for the practical measure of shopping and eating within that restriction, without having to agree with their methods. The Penn & Teller episode of Bullshit! on vegetarianism was really against PETA. No real argument about the conditions of animals, all argument on the bullcrap of PETA, so conclude eating meat is correct. But if you are making a transition, it's difficult to know what to eat and be healthy. Foods in the store are not labeled "vegan" except voluntarily. Many foods which appear to be entirely vegetable often have meat for flavoring. To be a vegan, you almost have to avidly interest yourself in food preparation and nutrition.
Kodie
Member
2/2
I also think people shouldn't be too uptight if they accidentally eat meat - it's not like a Jew eating pork thinks there's a god who will strike them. I feel bad that, since animals are real living beings and we eat them, anyone who chooses not to eat them is given a hard time, while Jews and their imaginary dietary restrictions are given respect. It should be easier not to eat meat if you don't want to than it is. Meat is hidden in a lot of things, popular restaurants have limited options. And once in a while, you want your friends to go with you to a vegan restaurant and they act like they'll die if they don't have access to a roast beef sandwich or ribs.
Like abortions, though, if you don't want one, don't have one. If you don't want to be a vegan, don't be one. Unlike abortions, eating is an ongoing exercise, and I think it's hypocritical and mean to go out of your way to insult vegans, or protest letting the vegan choose the restaurant sometimes. If someone doesn't want to eat meat and you do, not eating meat once is not going to negate your meat-eating the same way eating meat is going to negate their non-meat-eating, or eating the one punishing salad on the menu where you like to eat. Society is more accommodating to imaginary religious restrictions as well as physically allergic restrictions (which is valid), but not what I see as a rational personal choice not to eat or wear animals. We don't, likewise, force anyone to have abortions. To pro-choice, it is not an issue for someone to personally decide not to abort the same way it is for anti-abortion to be in everyone's biz.
I am not speaking of the perhaps mythical zealous vegan who is annoying to people. It is like atheism to me - if you say you are an atheist, people get their back up immediately, so I think people are just stating their preferences, and become the object of scorn in an over-stated way more often than not.
FO
Member
I'm a lazy vegetarian.
That is, I don't buy meat but eat it if it is offered to me.
This is because my main concern is to reduce the impact of meat production.
The other concerns, are health and animal welfare.
Intensive farming practices are horrible and deny the animal a life; the slaughtering is just the icing on a revolting cake.
Other than that, killing animals due to need does not concerns me too much.
This said, I have troubles considering humans special.
Sure, killing a human damages also all the humans that care for that individual.
Sure, we need not to kill each other for very practical reasons that are not so strong when it comes to other animals.
But I'm not convinced.
In short, I don't have a consistent view, and this bugs me.
UrsaMinor
Member
I agree, vegetarians in general and vegans in particular are given a hard time that they don't deserve. If somebody doesn't want to eat meat, for whatever reason, it shouldn't be a big deal. But the converse is also true. I have very little patience with either self-righteous vegetarians or self-righteous carnivores. Eat what you want and leave other people's preferences out of the equation, please. Eating meat, or not eating meat, doesn't make you a better person, or a terrible person.
I shrug off the vegan argument that "if you knew where your cheeseburger came from, you wouldn't eat it." I know where it comes from. I've visited farms, and slaughterhouses, and I'm no stranger to wielding the knife. I've worked in a laboratory where I've killed more rats with my own hands in one day than most people will ever see in a lifetime. Some people will argue that laboratory sacrifices don't count, because rats are not a food animal and I've never slaughtered a cow, but I find that to be a bogus argument. Rats are just as intelligent and aware of what's happening around them as cows are (if not more so).
Now, I do personally think it's better to be aware of how your food is produced (whatever that food is, from beans to bacon), but it's not my place to forcibly educate people who aren't interested in knowing.
Like FO, I would like to minimize the impact of meat production. Factory farming practices in the U.S. can be pretty horrific for the animals, and they are also bad for the environment. And let us not forget that the standard commercially raised cow in the U.S. is fed a lot of grain, which it is not well-suited to digest, and which alters the fat content of the meat to something that is considerably less healthy for humans to consume than grass-fed beef.
My views are still evolving. I don't think I'm consistent about it. As I get older, I am shedding more and more of the eating practices that I was raised with.
Kodie
Member
FO brings up a good point. People are really rude and at times inhumane to others, but value human life, as in "I hate you but not enough that I sincerely hope you die." Not enough to, say, round up everyone on welfare and "solve" a problem, not even abort fetuses who will likely end up on welfare and perpetuate the problem. Only enough to call people lazy, slutty, cheats and despise supporting them through taxes.
Then there are people who just wish you'd die, but don't kill you. Stares of death, saying things like "drop dead" or "die in a fire," being really glad when you ask your mom what's new in the old 'hood, and she says "Old Mr. Asshollé up the street died."
But overall, people value people. And some animals. Dogs more than cats, some people equal on the cats, but don't give a shit about livestock. Or some livestock more than others. Cows for milk, chickens for eggs, and sheep for wool - because nobody died! Dying may actually be preferable for some of these animals who are used up, living animals more like us than not, squeezed out like a dirty sponge and thrown away. But nobody likes mold, kill mold in a heartbeat. Or a bug. Small pests but not livestock, just bugs but not mammals, anything that's not a human, anything that's not a human or endangered, anything that's not a human or a panda.
I am more like FO, I think. This is my take: I don't care as much for humans. I don't care when some of them died in a car crash, even children. I feel a little for their families, but compartmentalize that from my own small world, all the animals I eat that I compartmentalize from their conditions prior. Look at statistics of causes of death - a lot of people die, a lot of children die. We're not up in arms, we're not crushed to tears unless we hear one personal account, so I am just not moved by that any more than I am numbers on a list, and numbers on a list are bigger, they just don't have faces and names.
B.O.B.
Member
I happen to be a vegetarian, and I try not to be obnoxious about it when dealing with those who choose to be carnivores. This is because I have no moral issue with animals, including humans, eating other animals. It is just part of the way things work. The reason I choose not to eat meat is because I am concerned about agricultural practices and priorities and the manner in which they can impact the future of all species on the planet.
This is why I am of two minds about the whole obnoxious vegetarian thing. I think it sort of depends on the reasoning behind it, but I recognize that is likely a very subjective argument. I don't think anyone has the right to judge or berate someone else for choosing to eat meat based on an animal rights perspective. I can sympathize with that point of view, but my general rule is "if it doesn't affect you then it is not your business". So sure it is sad that the veal calves have it rough etc., but it does not effect me, ergo...
Now, that having been said, when approached from the perspective of sustainable ecology and natural resource conservation it is a very plausible argument that someone's choice to eat meat and by extension to support a meat-centric agricultural paradigm absolutely does affect me. More importantly it affects the quality of life my son will enjoy. When choosing to eat meat or not I would advise anyone to do a little research on topsoil erosion, colony collapse disorder, nitrogen based algae blooms (dead zone in the gulf etc.), and aquifer depletion. Then take a look at how much of this is the result of agriculture and how efficient the acre to calorie to environmental impact ratio is when the agriculture industry is largely focused on feeding animals for meat.
When I turn on the tap and no water comes out, or when the price of grain becomes unaffordable due excessive topsoil loss based on intensive animal feed farming, or when we can no longer eat fruit because all the bees needed to pollinate the trees have been killed off by the petro chemical pesticides needed to maintain production levels to the point where everyone can eat meat if they choose to then it does become my business, and I respectfully reserve the right to attempt to educate people on the impact that THEIR decision has on ME.
Ebon Badger
Member
If I lived on my own I would probably be more veggie orientated than I am, but that's because I would be paying for the food and thus be able to choose what I buy. As things stand, I buy meat as mum pays for it and she cooks it (I do the shopping, and hoovering, and the washing, so I earn my keep, but I would really like to be able to move out) and I eat it. I don't think I'll ever be fully vegetarian like my aunt and uncle are though, I like bacon too much! :-D
What does puzzle me is the squeamishness of some meat eaters. And what causes issues varies a lot across the world and often coincides with unthinking wouldn't-say- something-so-stupid-if-your-brain-was-switched-on racism, unfortunately. In the UK eating a baby cow is fine, but eating a cat is icky and gross and what those funny Chinese people put in their dishes instead of "proper" meat and OMG they eat dogs too! I often wonder what people in India make of the European habit of eating beef. I've had horse, it tastes like a more metallic version of beef, and yet when I tell people they freak out. I'd understand the reaction from veggies (funnily enough, I have yet to be on the receiving end of a freak out from a veggie) but when the omnivores go "oh noes, not teh pretty horsies!" I do wonder if they truly understand the processes that went into the food on their plate.
The continent has yet to grasp the concept of vegetarianism though; in Slovenia (where I had horse burgers) and Hungary the "vegetarian" menu was in fact the fish menu. The Slovenes make better goulash then the Hungarians, but you did not hear that from me ;)
I was raised on a farm and have killed and eaten more cute farmyard animals than I can remember. Now that I live in a city, I make a point of only buying British meat - not out of patriotism, but because British standards of animal husbandry and welfare are much, much higher than almost anywhere else in the world. Danish pigs are reared and bred in pig-creeps, American cattle are intensively fattened using Angel Dust (a practice illegal in the rest of the world, by the way), and don't even get me started on how chickens are raised. Google "Ross Cobb" (a breed of chicken) and be prepared to never touch a McNugget ever again.
I eat much less meat than is average in the western diet anyway. A healthy average amount of red meat to eat is about 4oz (100g) per day. That's a burger patty. How many meat-eaters eat that little, do you think?
FO
Member
@B.O.B.: In EU we have our good deal of dirty deeds, raving morons and blood-soaked hands, US are just easier to make fun of 'cause there's more news coverage.
Our half-assed reaction to the current slaughter in Libya is because we do golden deals with Mr.Gaddafi (a personal friend of our beloved Prime Minister).
Anyway.
US and EU won't starve, we'll always have food and water.
Because we have the weapons and the power to take them from the poorer countries, not unlike we do now.
Ecological problems will not change OUR consumerist life style: they will increase the tensions in the world, they will increase the wars, the violence, the exploitation.
Well before we starve, billions of other people will starve in our place.
More and more desperate people easily turned to petty (and kinda righteous) hatred.
We'll grow more and more paranoid and militarized.
We'll become a police state, but none will touch our God-given steak.
At least for a while.
How about anthropophagy?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/cannibalism.html
Jeremiah
Member
Well I don't eat meat but I can't say I have spent much time philosophizing about it. For one I just don't happen to like meat. I also take the whole animals can feel pain and suffering and why inflict it on them if you don't need to angle. That said, I don't spend my nights plotting about burning down a slaughterhouse or anything either.
The "if you knew where it came from you wouldn't eat meat" thing came up. I don't agree with that because some people are perfectly fine hunting, skinning, etc and that's okay but on the other hand I do wish more people knew more about how our food supply is created and maintained.
Just as a general rule I think it is a bad situation when the public at large gets too many degrees of separation between source and destination in any consumer product. I guess what I mean by that is sometimes it is too easy for people to rationalize the consequences of their actions when they don't have to deal with them face to face. A mentality of "Oh, of course I oppose sweat shops, but MY shoes weren't made like that!" Know what I mean?
Siberia
Member
I do eat meat, and I've somewhat of an interest in farming, though I've never lived in one. I know there's a tendency for Brazilian cattle to be kept on range and many producers wouldn't dream of incarcerating a cow and forcing chemicals down its throat (because afaik, it's considered better meat if it is raised free and on real food rather than hormones). I've seen some model pig farms that are... well, better than a lot of people's homes. There are inhumane practices, make no mistake, but those come from smaller producers (and there's currently a crackdown on them, as well as slaughterhouses standards of protection and animal welfare).
Now, I may be horribly wrong and my information outdated, but that's what I know thus far. I also don't eat a helluva lot of red meat and pork (but I do eat chicken quite often, so).
WarbVIII
Member
I eat meat, in fact I mostly eat meat(I am fairly close to being a carnivore as opposed to omnivore), I like to eat eat..so I do. When I don't eat meat several times a week,or more specifically red meat(granted I probably only eat 3-5 times a week anyway as far as a full meals go and even then its one in a day and no more), I do not feel good at all. I will feel run down and ill and will also get sick easier..I also do not care for most vegetables or fruits. Thus,even though I know where and how most of the meat I get is raised it doesn't bother me much at all, though I don't like how most of it is cared for,I can't really afford most of the more humane products as they tend to be 3-7$ a pound or more expensive than the more common options. I'd probably eat any animal as long as it tastes good(though I don't like most seafood) to me, I have had snake,antelope,emu, and gator as far as odd options go,of the more mundane I have probably had most game birds,deer,carribou,bison,duck,goose,lamb, goat..etc I am an equal oppertunity carnivore for the most part.
kholdom0790
Member
On meat-eating, I mostly agree with B.O.B. I see no moral problem with eating meat because that's the way the food chain goes - animals eat other animals/plants etc. What I have a problem with is the production and rearing of these animals.
Does anyone know how foie gras (sp?) is made? The duck or goose is FORCE-FED corn. It is so controversial that many countries outlaw or heavily regulate it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras#Controversy
The manufacturers of foie gras maintain that it doesn't cause the animals any discomfort, but they would say that, wouldn't they? anyway...
drax
Member
Last night I took my girlfriend's son out to eat at a restaurant called CopaCabana (no, not the Barry Manilow One) as a celebration for an achievement. It is a Brazilian Barbeque. Basically, they just keep bringing you different cuts of meat on huge skewers. They carve it at the table, and it just keeps coming. Beef, pork, lamb, and salmon. At the end grilled pineapple.
B.O.B.
Member
FO is right on this one. Here are the basic facts. You can grow x amount of corn on a given parcel of land. If you feed it to people all of the chemical energy present in the edible portion of that plant goes to feed people. If you use it to feed cattle then over 90% of that chemical energy becomes waste heat and inedible tissue. As a result you must grow 10 times as much corn for the same caloric benefit. Also you must use much more than 10 times as much water for the additional corn plus the water given directly to the animals. Considering in most parts of the earth we are pumping out aquifers faster than the rain can refill them, primarily for agricultural irrigation, this is a very bad thing. When you empty your aquifer you cannot pay to have it refilled you have to move (and increase the rate of depletion on another aquifer)leaving behind a desert. If you view this in the context of our rapidly growing population and the rapid exhaustion, desertification, and erosion of the earths fixed supply of arable land it seems to me that a less than 10% efficiency rate in the unsustainable consumption of life's single most precious resource is at the very least something worth spending a moment to consider. Would I love to eat bacon wrapped filet mignon twice a week? Absolutely. Do I think it is worth it? No, personally I do not.
WarbVIII
Member
Just one other note in general of meat eating vs vegeterineism would be that without the protien from meat and fish etc mankind would never have become what it is now with it's super huge brain which was grown through the ingestion of protien,meats and sea food primarily, and the complex behavior that comes from hunting,specifically cooprative hunting mankind would be more like other members of the great ape community and not the dominant animal on the planet. Then there is the fact that to me eating just fruit,vegetables and grains strikes me as becoming to much like a prey species to me, and this next is ment in a mostly joking manner but if everything went to hell and consuming humans became necessesary to survive I would likely choose a vegitarian/vegan before an omnivore/carnivore to consume if I had a choice. Also as inefficient as meat may be a truly vegetarian diet is even more so,thus why most animals in the wild that are vegetarian spend most of their time eating..and since humans whom follow such a diet can't it tends to explain their overall thinness when compared to those with more omnivore or carnivorous diets, basically animal protiens got us to the dance of intelligence and self-aware consciousness why abandon what got you to the dance? I also strongly dispute that 90% number (as it seems a bit high and there are other uses for most of the inedible material) but that doesn't much matter in any event, as I don't have a different number nor do I have an intrest in actually finding out if it's accurate since I am not about to stop consuming meat even if that number is accurate as I don't enjoy vegetables or fruit to the degree I do meat,and when I eat I eat something I like and want to eat.
UrsaMinor
Member
It is a fallacy that our brains need animal protein. You can get a perfectly adequate supply of high-quality, brain-friendly protein from plant sources.
The 90% waste number is in the ballpark- but for commercially raised cattle, the caloric waste is more like 95%, and sometimes even worse than that. You can feed twenty times as many people on the grain that you feed the cattle as you can feed with the cattle themselves. The reason for this is that cattle aren't just inert collection bags for the plant calories that they eat- they burn most of the calories themselves to maintain their metabolism and move around, and the small fraction of calories that are left over is what is available for people to eat.
Given the way the human population is surging, this will soon be a moot point. Either people will stop relying so heavily on meat, or they will starve because the planet doesn't have the resources to produce enough of meat to feed everybody. I'd rather cut back so I can live in a world where I have the option to eat the occasional, juicy and affordable steak.
Francesco
Member
@Ursa:
Yea, but a cattle can live with only grain, while humans cannot. you do not utilize 100% of that grain. except for the seeds, the other parts of the plant are wasted. plus an human needs other sources of protein, vitamines & so on. Also intensive cultivations tend to desertify the lands, leaving them useless for farming for large periods of time. Another flaw is the time and the vulnerability of plants. I do not know if this has made it to America, but here in the whole mediterranean area, in north africa & middle-east region there is actually a very aggressive type of fly which litterally destroys datepalm. Imagine what would happens if a whole planet, based mainly on grain or another kind of vegetables, where to face a similiar situation.
Actually the only way that seems to be viable to me is a gradual reduction of the global population. It is nearly impossible to sustain for a long period of time a constantly growing population like our current one.
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