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1. 

   Troutbane
   Member

   OK, lil background on myself. I was raised in the rural Bible-belt so Ive been exposed to the "fire and brimstone". My wife, on the other hand, was raised Catholic complete with knuckle smacking nuns at Catholic school. Obviously we've both been disillusioned with religion. While I went the scientific skeptic route, she went the generic spiritual Christian path (although she does love her ghost hunting shows).
   Anyways, I sometimes watch Joel Osteen (whom she loves) with her. And I gotta say, he actually seems a good guy with a good message. I may not agree with his whole religious point of view, his message seems fairly universal and secular, and he talks more about hope and being good rather than Bible thumping.

   Any thoughts?

   Posted 2 years ago #
2. 

   LRA
   Member

   He sure does make a lot of money pushing that feel-good stuff...

   Posted 2 years ago #
3. 

   vorjack
   Moderator

   He seems to have adapted a lot of the "new thought" ideas into a sort of feel good Christianity. I can see that backfiring.

   After all, if God really wants you to be healthy, wealthy and happy, then whose fault is it when you're sick, broke and miserable? You can't blame God, so it must be your fault. Maybe you need an even more positive attitude. Maybe you need more faith. And maybe you'd better send another check to Osteen ...

   Posted 2 years ago #
4. 

   arrakis
   Member

   The problem with Osteen and people like Joyce Meyer (who is more popular here in St. Louis because she's somewhat local) is the Gospel of Prosperity that they preach. The idea that "God" showers "His" chosen with blessings in this life seems to me to be both ignorant and arrogant. It's ignorant because it suggests that good things can only come from God™ (non-Christians need not apply), and it's arrogant because it implies that if your life isn't perfect and prosperous you must be doing something wrong. This logic has most recently been followed by every religious leader who has blamed Japan's earthquake on Japan's lack of Christian faith.

   Osteen also preaches that homosexuality is a sin. You can see a very famous example of this in his interview with Piers Morgan on CNN a few months ago.

   Osteen may have an impeccable smile and a buttery way with words that gives you vague warm fuzzies, but the truth is that he is sugarcoating the same ignorant, arrogant, and often hateful message that so many others preach.

   On a somewhat-related note:
   My mother came home on this past Ash Wednesday and proceeded to tell the family (including us three non-believing children stuck during Spring Break) that the message preached was that without God, "we are all just ashes". My response was that my friend who practices Hinduism must be hiding his worthlessness from me. The conversation changed topics at that point.

   Posted 2 years ago #
5. 

   Troutbane
   Member

   By no means am I defending Mr. Osteen but I will retort on some of the points presented:

   1) The dude makes money, lots of money. His church can seat like the population of Bangladesh (just kidding). No doubt he passes the plate. But, I’ve seen him several times and never heard him say during his sermons, “Give me money”. Of course, there is usually a commercial afterwards in which they try to sell you stuff, but I have never heard him mention giving money during a sermon. He also sells lots of books, of which I’ve even bought a few for my fundie relatives.
   2) The God grants wishes/Book of Job paradox. We see this all the time where people say if you pray God will deliver: which has never been proven to consistently happen. What does happen is bad stuff happens to some and not others. What this becomes from the religious society perspective is that when bad things happen, it’s because people deserved it or were not faithful enough. You see this in urban legends about miracles. You see this in disasters. The funny (paradox) part of this, is when the truly faithful have something bad happen they dismiss it as “God has a plan” or some such nonsense, which Osteen is definitely a part of. However, once you get past that you reach the Taoist view that tomorrow may be better or it might not be, but whatever it is, it simply is. Joel just paints it as “It WILL be better (as long as you believe in God)”. For that, I partially agree with him: it may be better, or worse, or the same, but it’s not because you believe in the Bible.
   3) I saw the interview where they pretty much put the thumbscrews to him to admit how he felt about homosexuality. No, I’m not blaming the media, he does truly feel this way, but it definitely seemed like he didn’t want to admit it out loud. But in that interview, he said he also doesn’t hate gays. He has that compassion viewpoint to save them, but he admitted he doesn’t hate them. The guy is full of love, even for those that in his perspective are sinners, which I think is actually refreshing in comparison to Phelps.
   All in all, he is still a truly devout evangelist who thinks most of the people who post here will burn in eternal hellfire. He milks his congregation and viewers for a ton of cash, for which, like most televangelists, seems to spend a large amount on some damn fine suits. He thinks people not like him are sinners who will suffer God’s wrath if they don’t repent. But I still cannot disagree when he says things like “Be nice to others”, or “Listen to other’s problems if they are having a bad day”, or “Don’t worry, be happy”.

   Posted 2 years ago #
6. 

   Jabster
   Member

   'But I still cannot disagree when he says things like “Be nice to others”, ...'

   ... unless you're gay of course and then you need to repent and be "cured", closely followed by some love the sinner hate the sin crap. Oh and I hate genocide but not the person who commits genocide.

   Posted 2 years ago #
7. 

   Troutbane
   Member

   That seems like a stretch to compare a hatred of homosexuality to a hatred of genocide. I see what you are saying, but that is quite a leap.

   As for his words:
   "Yes, I've always believed, Piers, the scriptures show that homosexuality is a sin. But I'm not one of those who is out there to bash homosexuals and tell them that they're terrible people and all of that. I mean, there are other sins in the Bible, too. And I think sometimes the church - and I don't mean this critically - but we focus on one issue or two issues, and there's plenty of other ones. So I don't believe that homosexuality is God's best for a person's life - sin means to miss the mark."

   Posted 2 years ago #
8. 

   Jabster
   Member

   I'm stating that love the sinner hate the sin is basic bollocks which is used to hide the real fact of hate for the sinner - why would it be different to love the genocidal manic but hate the sin, well I suppose you could be right as the Christian god is a genocidal maniac and people love him.

   Posted 2 years ago #
9. 

   vorjack
   Moderator

   The God grants wishes/Book of Job paradox.

   My problem with Osteen has little to do with how he constructs his theology, although the fact that he ignores so much of the text that is supposedly his primary authority doesn't speak well of his intellectual integrity.

   Take things like this, "Yes, I've always believed, Piers, the scriptures show that homosexuality is a sin." Joel, you've already reinterpreted large chunks of the Bible to suit your own ends, why are you getting hung up on the "clobber verses"?

   But my main problem is the inevitable way that "new thought" leads to blaming the victim. It is very much like Job, where Job is suffering and his neighbors gather around and try to get him to confess. He's suffering, so he must have done something wrong.

   Well, according to Osteen, Rhonda Byron and the rest of the "new thought" proponents, if I'm suffering, it's because I haven't been positive enough. There's no room in "new thought" for the idea that shit just happens.

   Posted 2 years ago #
10. 

    Agathos
    Member

    "The God grants wishes/Book of Job paradox" actually this would be a dichotomy, and a false one at that.

    First, in Joel's philosophy tomorrow WILL be better. End of story. The above dichotomy views two groups of people: those who things go well for, and those who things go badly for.

    But we all know the totality of the human experience is much more complicated: good things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to good people, bad things happen to bad people, and a whole gamut of intermediate experiences in between.

    So the biggest problem with Osteen's snow job is that it is stupid, ignorant, and above all, creates false expectations in his audience. The reality is that things will go bad for some people, horribly bad. Car accidents, cancer, molestation, abuse, earthquakes, starvation, depression... I could go on.

    Who cares if he spews his childish philosophy with a smile on his face and a soothing voice? The fact that he is absolutely mind-raping a bunch of people with a ridiculous philosophy makes him a giant asshole.

    Posted 2 years ago #
11. 

    Daniel Florien
    Administrator

    Osteen has always struck me as a shallow thinker who preys on stupid to make lots of money.

    Posted 2 years ago #
12. 

    Agathos
    Member

    Shallow? If his thinking was represented by a body of water he would be a small puddle!

    Posted 2 years ago #
13. 

    Ty
    Moderator

    Shallow sells. In fact, vapid shallowness seems to be the best way to sell. Dr. Phil is the poster child for shallow nonsense masquerading as deep truth.

    Posted 2 years ago #
14. 

    B.O.B.
    Member

    Of course shallow sells. It is just smart shopping. If I can pay for absolute certainty that I am right with a side of baseless and generalized emotional comfort and have it delivered instantly that makes more sense than shelling out money for something that requires thought, effort, an investment of time etc.

    Posted 2 years ago #
15. 

    arrakis
    Member

    I have to say that Rhonda Byrne's "The Secret" is way up the shallow nonsense creek.

    Final note on homosexuality: Osteen may have "compassion" for gays, but what that means to me is that he doesn't accept gays for being who they are. It's patronizing, as in, "Aww, poor gay people. It's too bad you're gay, because God loves you but doesn't like who you are."

    Troutbane, the parts of Osteen's message you seem to like may very well be good advice. Treating others with basic respect, letting people with troubles talk, and not holding a grudge are all practices that benefit society. What I would ask is what does Osteen preach that would be good advice if the divine/religious element was removed? Or, to put it another way, what can you learn from Joel Osteen that you can't learn anywhere else?

    Posted 2 years ago #
16. 

    Ebon Badger
    Member

    Shallow? If his thinking was represented by a body of water he would be a small puddle!

    No. Even a puddle has depth. He'd be more like the thin layer of condensation on your car windscreen

    But, I’ve seen him several times and never heard him say during his sermons, “Give me money”. Of course, there is usually a commercial afterwards in which they try to sell you stuff, but I have never heard him mention giving money during a sermon.

    Pastors are usually more subtle than that. They'll waffle on about the mission work and how you can get "more information" from the the merch stand (which won't be called a merch stand), or run mecha-church meets where you have to pay to get in, and then there's the pass the plate thing. Oh and the tithe thing. But outside of televangelism I have yet to hear anyone flat out ask for cash.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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