I never felt that I was in any danger, but I will admit that it creeped me out a bit. I'm not at all shocked or offended at the idea of being propositioned by a stranger, but you know, there are certain places that you go if you want that sort of thing.
I was wrong.
(230 posts) (32 voices)-
TrickQuestion
MemberSo, what can I do when I first encounter a female to let her know that i am not indeed planning on raping them, no matter the time or place? I doubt that all women are so fearful as to think all men are just out to rape them.
Also, I seriously doubt that anything I can do (writing congress etc) will have any impact whatsoever on the stigma sexual assault has.
I am in no way defending the guy. he was horribly wrong to do that to someone (and as tactless as i am most time i would have never done that. then again, I'm not a usual case in that i don't care much about sex in the least)I guess it boils down to is there a reason to be fearful if the man has given no indication of anything? Say the guy just got onto the elevator and said or did nothing. I know I'd be weirded out at 4 am, but i would be weirded out at any time. Yes, i am not a female. Yes, i understand that many women get raped in the western world. I'm just trying to get my head around the thought process that all guys are potential rapists.
Posted 1 year ago # -
It's all about context. I'm not saying that all women should treat all men as potential rapists at all times, but in that situation she was right to be wary. If he wanted coffee, why couldn't he have asked her to join him at the bar? His actions, while innocently intended, carried a threat because of the society we live in. And I don't buy that fear of rejection crap - A man who feels humiliated by being told no has some serious issues to deal with. Fun fact, when I first asked my other half on a date she said no - And I accepted that unquestioningly and continued to be her friend. Then one day she decided she wanted us to take it further. Good, eh? If rejection bothered me, I wouldn't be getting married next year.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Speaking as a male nurse, I hope not! But in my game you get very good at diffusing that tension. It's about attitude, really. That and always at least offer to have female staff see female patients. 99% will say it's cool, but 100% will appreciate the offer and trust you more for making it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
UrsaMinor
Member@TrickQuestion:
As a man, I don't feel qualified to advise you on how to come across as non-threatening to a woman that you don't know. For that, you will have to ask a woman's opinion. Preferably several of them; it's not like the female half of the species is a monolithic block.
I'm somewhat disappointed that no women have joined the conversation, but I suppose that's because it's a holiday for all of our U.S. members and most people are probably out in the back yard right now grilling hamburgers and relaxing with a beer or two before the fireworks.
Posted 1 year ago # -
@ Custy
Um, no. More like: Fails utterly to take into account that in the world we live in, a woman has every right to feel threatened in that situation. And that's completely ignoring his treatment of her as a purely sexual object.
I don't expect her to feel completely safe at 4 am in a foreign country alone with a man in the elevator, but to make asking her to have coffee in his room and presumably sexual relations explicitly wrong because "1 in 6 women[people?] are raped" is silly to me.
The guy should have used more tact, but he's no rapist or sexual deviant because he chose to do it in an elevator.
So, I think you misunderstand my point. Being overtly sexual isn't even the problem. I am not opposed to casual sex nor to I wish to malign the practice.
That's exactly what's implied with what you said "There's nothing wrong with wanting sex but if that is your primary agenda, you'll never be worth her time." I can tell you from that there are plenty of women who have sex primary on their agenda, and presumably they would feel that men with similar agendas are "worth their time". Of course, most human beings don't want this and are looking for substantive encounters... so it's good to use tact when trying to find a like-minded individual.
You continued to say that people who are explicitly trying to engage in casual sex are either "sexually deprived, unnatural, or lack social skill".
Posted 1 year ago # -
UrsaMinor
MemberYou continued to say that people who are explicitly trying to engage in casual sex are either "sexually deprived, unnatural, or lack social skill".
Indeed, this sounds like the echo of religious indoctrination.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't especially care to hang out with people who are all about casual sex, all the time- but I don't consider most of them to be losers. I know some people like that who seem quite well-adjusted, and they are definitely not sexually deprived and do not lack social skills. The only comment I would make about it is that it's their thing and not mine.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Nzo
MemberI don't think tailoring your behavior to suit your fears of what people around you think is useful. If you have something to say, say it. Beating around the bush is what makes you sound awkward/creepy.
Also, just google "1 in 6", and tell me that anything there should be considered significant enough to change your behavior.
As for following a woman to an elevator at 4am, that's creepy. You've either picked her up at the bar, and she's walking with you consensually, or you go the f*ck about your business because you couldn't be man enough to try it anywhere but 1-on-1 where any thinking woman would feel cornered and threatened.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Interestingly enough, Abbie Smith (ERV) has absolutely torn up Rebecca for making off-handed attacks as a public speaker and student representative. (http://scienceblogs.com/erv/2011/07/the_decent_human_beings_guide.php)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Eudaimonist, you said:
"I don't expect her to feel completely safe at 4 am in a foreign country alone with a man in the elevator, but to make asking her to have coffee in his room and presumably sexual relations explicitly wrong because "1 in 6 women[people?] are raped" is silly to me.
The guy should have used more tact, but he's no rapist or sexual deviant because he chose to do it in an elevator."
I refer you back to my previous comment:
"My other half has made an interesting point: Those of the opinion that (other than crap timing) the guy did nothing wrong are seeing it very firmly from the perspective of guys who aren't sexual predators; you're identifying with Elevator Guy because in reality he probably didn't intend any offence or harm by his actions, and would probably have been shocked that a woman could regard him as a possible threat.
However. The other side to that is: 1 in 6 women in the Western world get raped. I would argue that any woman whose alarm bells don't start ringing in that situation (where a stranger follows her from a bar into an empty elevator at 4AM and bluntly proposes sex) is either a Kung Fu master, packing heat, or has a seriously under-developed sense of danger."
You also said:
"Interestingly enough, Abbie Smith (ERV) has absolutely torn up Rebecca for making off-handed attacks as a public speaker and student representative."
Abbie Smith conveniently ignores the build-up to Watson's speech in which she mentioned Stef McGraw, and she totally ignores Watson's dislike of passive aggressive behaviour. Making implications without naming names is passive aggressive, thus she doesn't do it.
Anyway. The background: Stef McGraw ripped into Watson on her blog for her Elevator Guy bit, basically saying that we're all sexual creatures, she shouldn't get creeped out by getting hit on (ignoring the whole 4AM, alone, in an elevator part). Watson addressed this in a speech at a different conference, further explaining her issues and referencing McGraw's blog post about it. And for that, Watson is accused of making "off-hand attacks". What absolute bullshit.
Posted 1 year ago # -
blotonthelandscape
Member@Balstrome, IIRC, you're South African? SAfrican men aren't exactly role-models when it comes to treating women with real respect. The respect I was taught at school is what you describe, but the way women are treated in that country (by the older generation anyway) is far from the feminist ideal. Having come out of that system, I can see the error of training boys to think that respect means opening doors and tipping your cap. It's not a product of a free society, it's a product of victorian-era ethics and boer entitlement. Things might have changed since I left (9 years ago today), but I'm certain that what you describe is a long way short of eliminating male privilege.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Mark the Pilgrim
Member@TrickQuestion: "I don't even compliment women anymore, because there's no way of knowing how they will take it."
I've learnt a lot about how to treat females in the past few years. I've never sexually harassed anyone before, but once it occurred to me that I might be creeping out some females by my behaviour around them.
I still do compliment women, but I've learnt that it is highly contextual. I doubt any woman would get offended if you say, "you look beautiful/great/nice/good/pretty today" without any hint of perversion in your voice (believe me, there are many ways to make a simple compliment sound perverse - e.g. the old paedophile on Family Guy). I think the problem arises when some guys think that a compliment consists of: "your tits look nice today". It's not that hard when you get down to it.I wasn't following much of this feud, but from what I've read in this thread, I pretty much agree with Custador and Ursa.
And @blotonthelandscape: The males in my area of London treat women so poorly. It's not uncommon for a bunch of mandem/chavs to corner a girl and ask for her number. If she says no, they might rob her or give her a hard time. And if she gives them a fake number, they call it to make sure. It's fricking awful.
Posted 1 year ago # -
FO
Member@Balstrome: "help" as in care.
My apologies if I sounded patronizing, it was not my intention.We men should be more careful to many things we do.
Women should take more responsibility of their condition (ie: we need more feminists).@TrickQuestion: "Excuse me, I realize this is kind of weird, but I really wanted to tell you you look gorgeous / I wanted to meet you. My name is [InsertName]."
This is for a complete stranger.
Be very careful to use non-threatening body language (including voice and distance) and do it where she feels safe (ie, probably not in an elevator, wait for the doors to open at least).
If the compliment is genuine usually the above comes better.
The times I did it I was shitting myself in my pants, but I shouldn't have freaked out anyone.The rest, what Mark the Pilgrim said.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Noelle
MemberI will take any sincere compliment, without assuming it's more than someone being nice. It's ok to notice a lady looks nice today, and say it in a non-creepy way. Social awkwardness is common enough in both genders. I would assume most people can tell the difference between shy or awkward and creepy. I for one understand and like awkward people, being one myself.
I do not want people to pull out chairs, open car doors, stand when I enter a room, or tip a hat toward me. In my culture, this is weird. If my arms are full of stuff or my hands busy with unruly children, I do appreciate someone holding a door open for me. I would do the same for you.
Asking a stranger to coffee in an elevator at 4 am is creepy. It raises alarm bells (like the how best to get raped and/or murdered alarm bells). This is not exceptable social behavior.
@Custy. Good work persevering in the friend zone, and congrats on the engagement.
Not every encounter a woman has with a man makes her wonder if she's gonna get raped. Don't be afraid all women think you are out to rape them. Most of us really like you guys and want to get to know you. Think of how you would feel most comfortable with a stranger approaching you, and use that as a guide. Ask female friends and relatives if you're not sure.
Posted 1 year ago # -
UrsaMinor
MemberAs a useful thought exercise, guys, consider how you would feel if another guy approached you the way that you approach a woman. Someone who is not being creepy, but is obviously interested in you and letting you know it.
A lot of straight men are uncomfortable with this scenario, even if the other guy is being polite and sending clear signals that he will cheerfully back off if you're not interested.
Now imagine that this happens to you every day, and that you have to put up with this from nearly every guy that you meet, in every ordinary social situation.
Posted 1 year ago # -
UrsaMinor
MemberIt is meant to illustrate how constant, non-threatening-but-unwanted male attention might become irritating after a while.
This is how a lot of women feel. And they are expected to smile and put up with it, because after all, the guy is doing nothing wrong. He's simply exercising his right to speak freely and non-threateningly and signal his interest to strangers that he finds attractive. It is difficult to argue against that right in American society, because the right to free speech is generally conceded to trump any discomfort that it causes in the audience.
It is an interesting social conundrum.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Noelle
MemberI have a single friend, a stunningly beautiful woman, who lives in a big city. She complains about this all the time. She tells many would be suiters that she is a lesbian to detract them, and is surprised this doesn't work. (um, duh) She seems fairly exasperated about men in general.
I don't remember ever having that problem. But then I've been wearing a diamond ring on my left 4th finger for the last 13 years. I can also be prickly if not in the mood to be polite about such encounters. I'm not stunning. Cute perhaps, in a distracted geeky way. I don't find most guys to be any more or less annoying than other women.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ty
ModeratorThat scenario was true for me for quite a while. I lived in a gay neighborhood, and for some reason I've never understood I'm a gay magnet. I got hit on a lot. I can't say it ever really bothered me as long as the guy was cool about it. Some of those guys wound up being my friends.
Posted 1 year ago # -
zach
Member@TrickQuestion: "Excuse me, I realize this is kind of weird, but I really wanted to tell you you look gorgeous / I wanted to meet you. My name is [InsertName]."
You could cut the implication that it is "kind of weird" and then focus the compliments on something she has more control over. I like to compliment people when I like their sense of style, or something more particular. Or just say that they look like a really interesting person, or someone you want to meet.
Also, add a sort of time constraint in there at the beginning if you want. That actually really helps put people at ease. So something like, "Excuse me, I only have a few minutes but I had to meet you, you have a very unique sense of style." And you should be sincere about it...I happen to like good style so I say this kind of thing a lot.
Make eye contact but don't lean in with your body. Angling away from people is less threatening at first.
Posted 1 year ago #
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