@Ty:
Mostly I get hit on by women. I think the universe is just messing with our heads.
I was wrong.
(230 posts) (32 voices)-
Ty
ModeratorI was sexually assaulted by a woman once.
Seriously. It was at an SF convention. A chubby matronly type in her fifties I'd guess groped the hell out of my ass while we were in a packed room. I remember being shocked, but with laughter rather than outrage. It still seems a little surreal to me.
That's my only good story about being groped.
Posted 1 year ago # -
FO
Member@Zach: I took the worste possible situation.
Random strager that you have no other obvious reason to be attracted to.
If you do notice something special about her, it's obviously far easier.Time constraint is too Mystery Method, I makes me feel dishonest and far more insecure than I am already.
@Ursa, Custy: I think it is not such a fitting thought exercise.
This is because it's not just a matter of being hit on.
In fact, many women dress to attract the attention because they *like* the attention.
Disclaimer: I think a woman must be free to go around naked without risking to be raped.
On average, a man can't easily overpower another man, while for a man overpowering a woman is far easier.
Unlike men, women do risk rape.Men are uncomfortable with being hit by other men because:
1) It forces them to face the fact that they may not be entirely heterosexual.
2) They haven't too much experience, so they don't know how to react.Posted 1 year ago # -
Brian M
Memberclothing can be cultural. I was chatting with a South American last night, and he commented on how aggressively sexualized middle and upper class female dress can be in Venezuela.
Also...isn't the folk wisdom that women, in many cases, really dress, competitively, for other women?
Posted 1 year ago # -
TrickQuestion
MemberBut, without knowing the person, no matter how a compliment is worded, it could come off as harassment. You never really know how a person will take something, even innocently.
And, I'm not really talking about approaching someone that i am interested in. I mean just anyone. That's one of the problems, i think. that if you approach someone they automatically assume you're trying to hit on them.
As for being hit on by a guy, i wouldn't take offense or anything to it. Quite honestly, i doubt i'd even know if I was being hit on unless it was super blatantly obvious.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm kind of jumping in midway, but I think it's worth pointing out that women dress the way they do for many of the same reasons men dress the way they do. In other words, clothing means a variety of different things to different people. The place where it's really worthwhile to separate it by gender is when you're looking at the ways in which the genders have been socialized to see clothing (for instance, the hypersexualization of clothing for young girls by designers, media influences like magazines, etc).
Urgh, I need to work on articulating my thoughts more. I'm having trouble with this.
What I'm trying to say is that women do *not* primarily dress to compete with other women, but some do. Women do *not* primarily dress to attract attention, but some do.
The same goes for men.
It is NOT productive to make generalizations regarding attitudes about clothing across genders because there is no way to realistically determine what the majority of people are trying to communicate through their mode of dress without asking them.
I hope that made sense.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Also, even if you think that you *can* comfortably read someone's dress, chances are good that you can't. Seriously. For example, someone looking at me would probably see a girl very conservitavely dressed who a) might seem like a "prude" (actual received comment), or b) might not be comfortable with their body. The reality is that I am, in fact, very comfortable with my body. I dress the way I do because being hollered at by guys in passing cars or having my chest oggled makes me want to curl up and die. (I'm aware that that puts me on the hypersensitive end of the spectrum, but it's good to be aware that some people are incredibly uncomfortable even with innocuous comments about their appearance.)
So...I guess the point is, be careful.
Posted 1 year ago # -
@Custy (sorry, I don't want to beat this to death but I want to make sure I'm articulating my view well)
My point was that the mere feeling of being unsafe isn't reason enough to make what Elevator Guy did wrong.
Someone wrote up this scenario in response and I thought it appropriate:
Being alone in an elevator with a black person late at night is uncomfortable for any white person, even if the black person is silent. But when the black person mentions money? There’s no way to avoid a predatory vibe here, and that’s unacceptable. A situation like this can lead to a mugging; I just read in the news here in Boulder that a few days ago a relatively innocent situation turned into assault. This isn’t some rare event; it happens a lot and most white people are all-too painfully aware of it.
I can understand that it’s hard for black people to truly grasp the white person's point of view here, since black people rarely feel in danger of being robbed by whites. But Jen McCrieght's post, and many others, make it clear that to a white person, being alone on that elevator with that black person was a potential threat, and a serious one. You may not be able to just press a button and walk away — perhaps the black person has a knife, or a gun, or will simply overpower you. When there’s no way to know, you err on the side of safety. And what makes this worse is that most black people don’t understand this, so white people are constantly put into situations ranging from uncomfortable to downright scary.
I'll admit, getting onto an elevator in downtown Detroit late at night with a black person who asks if I have an extra cash... I'd probably start to freak out. Does that mean he is wrong? Unless you have a moral problem with asking for money, I don't think so.
Posted 1 year ago # -
UrsaMinor
MemberIt sounds like almost everyone here is OK with being approached in a non-threatening manner, but that the individual threshold varies. And that's the real problem, isn't it? Is the onus on me to curtail my speech so as to never risk offending you, or is the onus on you to smile and shrug it off if I happen to cross your particular line because you know that I didn't mean to be offensive?
It seems to me that we need clear, deliberate and unambiguous social signals that say "I am approachable". Something that is as concrete and unmistakable as wearing a wedding band on your left ring finger.
I once saw a guy walking around wearing a button that said. "Single. Straight. Available." No mixed signals there.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Brian M
Memberelivent: You make a lot of sense. It is definitely a big mistake to over-generalize about why people behave the way they do.
Your last post also brings to mind a rather controversial idea: that ultra-conservative clothing is not always imposed by "the patriarchy". Hence, some Muslim women claim that they choose to dress in Hijabs and even the full coverings because they feel it liberates them from the male gaze. Which leads to all kinds of other issues, but this is an argument that is made when, for example, the French state acts to restrict Islamic dress. (Not to get too off topic here)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Mark the Pilgrim
MemberI've been hit on by a guy a few times. Most times they were cool about it and backed away after I told them I was straight. But once there was a pretty creepy dude around my neighbourhood who tried to chat me up in a pretty creepy way. It didn't make me feel unsafe (I'm a friggin' G, I would have 'murked' him), but I could understand how it could have made someone feel endangered.
Posted 1 year ago # -
@Eudaimonist
I know your comment was addressed to Custador, and sorry if jumping in like this is rude - not my intent. But I think that the elevator situation is about more than Watson merely "feeling unsafe". If you look at the individual elements of that scenario, it means the guy was either incredibly ignorant of how he would come across in that situaion, or he chose to approach her in that way regardless of how he would come across. Either way, it's not okay, and his intentions don't really matter all that much, no matter how potentially innocent they were.
Posted 1 year ago # -
@ Eudamomist:
"Being alone in an elevator with a black person late at night is uncomfortable for any white person, even if the black person is silent."
Seriously?! SERIOUSLY?! Wow dude. Just... Wow. That whole thing you quoted there was some racist crap.
Anyway, moving past that for a second:
"the mere feeling of being unsafe isn't reason enough to make what Elevator Guy did wrong"
And there is where we differ. I'll say it again: Any woman who doesn't at least become cautious when an unknown man follows her out of a bar and into an empty elevator at 4AM, and then doesn't start to get really alarmed when he bluntly proposes sex (and please don't argue that he didn't propose sex, we all know that's exactly what he was doing) must be existing in some kind of shielded bubble where she hasn't heard about rapes and sexual assaults happening late at night on lone women by men who've been drinking. And since the woman is certainly going to be aware of such stories, the man should be too, and he should know very well that what he's doing is threatening behaviour, even if he's not trying to be threatening and his intentions were entirely non-criminal. My point is, if he didn't think he should have done and if he did think, he's an arsehole.
Edit: I appreciate that I'm getting a little heated about this, please accept that I have some very good reasons to find the whole subject emotive.
Posted 1 year ago # -
@elivent
It's not rude at all to chime in. The more opinions, the merrier.
But I think that the elevator situation is about more than Watson merely "feeling unsafe".
What else could this be about? He didn't assault, rape, or sexually harass her.
Seriously?! SERIOUSLY?! Wow dude. Just... Wow. That whole thing you quoted there was some racist crap.
Anyway, moving past that for a second:
LOL... it was satire, Custador.
And there is where we differ. I'll say it again: Any woman who doesn't at least become cautious when an unknown man follows her out of a bar and into an empty elevator at 4AM, and then doesn't start to get really alarmed when he bluntly proposes sex (and please don't argue that he didn't propose sex, we all know that's exactly what he was doing) must be existing in some kind of shielded bubble where she hasn't heard about rapes and sexual assaults happening late at night on lone women by men who've been drinking.
I'll try satire once more:
I'll say it again: any white person who doesn't at least become cautious when a black man follows him out of a bar and into an empty elevator at 4AM and then doesn't start to get really alarmed when he bluntly asks for money must be existing in some kind of shielded bubble where they haven't heard about thefts and assaults happening late at night on lone white people by black men. And since the white man is obviously going to be aware of such stories, the black man should be aware of such stories, and he should realize that he is exhibiting threatening behavior, even if those were not his intentions.
So, is a black man who asks for money in an elevator morally questionable? Unless you have strong moral inclinations against asking for money, I don't see any other position to take than absolutely not. Unless, you want to argue that making someone uncomfortable DESPITE your intentions is morally wrong... which is another matter entirely.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm sorry, but I really don't accept that the two are remotely similar situations - Because I've never in my life felt threatened by being alone with a black guy. I've never had any reason to feel threatened by being alone with a black guy. People largely stick within their own socio-economic groups, so skin colour is irrelevant. Poor people are more likely to be mugged because they're around other poor people who maybe have a need to be muggers - on the other hand, rape respects no boundaries of class, income, religion or nation. It happens to rich, poor, black, white, religious and atheists alike. That "satire"? Not so satirical, tbh.
Edit: To illustrate this, I'll point out the current rash of knife crime happening in London. A policeman got accused of racism a few years ago because he said "Most street crime in London is committed by young, black males on other young, black males." That was a statement of fact (because being black in Britain, as in America, makes you disproportionately likely to be poor). Black-on-white street crime is a rarity, but it's a rarity that news media loves to harp on. Got to have our bogeymen, I suppose.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Nzo
Member@TrickQuestion
I might start a sh*tstorm from this, but I feel the need to help.
Look up "pua" or "pickup artist". They have some great ways of approaching women, even if their main focus is just a one night stand. You don't have to follow through to the end, but using some of the 'openers', you can find yourself getting more comfortable with talking to anyone/everyone without the awkwardness.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm sorry, but I really don't accept that the two are remotely similar situations - Because I've never in my life felt threatened by being alone with a black guy. I've never had any reason to feel threatened by being alone with a black guy. People largely stick within their own socio-economic groups, so skin colour is irrelevant. Poor people are more likely to be mugged because they're around other poor people who maybe have a need to be muggers - on the other hand, rape respects no boundaries of class, income, religion or nation. It happens to rich, poor, black, white, religious and atheists alike. That "satire"? Not so satirical, tbh.
I've never felt threatened by being alone with a black man either. But I know for a fact there are people who feel uncomfortable around black people. I've also never felt threatened by a guy hitting on me in an elevator at 4 AM. But, I know for a fact there are people who feel uncomfortable being hit on in an elevator at 4 AM. But, apparently, both poor, urban black people and men who want to hit on women are supposed to refrain from riding elevators because they are going to make someone feel uncomfortable.
Edited to add: NZO, that show was absolutely hysterical.
Posted 1 year ago # -
@Eudaimonist
No, he didn't assault, rape, or sexually harass her. Things don't have to escalate to the point of abuse before they become inappropriate. The fact that they didn't go that far, however, doesn't mean that it was okay for him to approach her in that way, in that place. By only identifying with him and assigning him solely innocent intentions, you're missing the part where not only did she have a valid reason for feeling uncomfortable, but that it was a reason he should have been able to foresee and prevent. The big problem here is that he didn't.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Nzo
Member@Custador
I fully invite you to try your hand at walking around some neighborhoods near me and pretending not to be scared for your life just for being white and in the wrong place. Maybe it's not widely known, but the urban culture here glorifies jail-time, so stabbing some white man that's keepin' them down, in midday, for the $20 and a wal-mart gift certificate in their wallet, would make them a hero.
Nobody outside the area I live really gets it, but there's nothing racist or prejudiced about it. It's a realistic risk assessment that a black person wouldn't think twice about.
If you're wondering, no, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest.
Also, I call the types I'm talking about 'n*ggers' because it's an apt way to differentiate between respectable black people, and the useless, jobless, ignorant, careless, reckless, dangerous, welfare-mooching, gangster-wannabes that solely exist to ruin as much as possible for everyone - especially respectable black people.
Edit: Clairifcation..
It's not the fact that the man is black that a white person feels on edge - it's the possiblity that the black man is a n*gger. You (Custador) probably don't have anything to worry about, whereas someone where I live would.
/edit
~~I await another sh*tstorm of people that don't understand calling me a racist.~~
Posted 1 year ago # -
@ Custador
You've obviously never lived in some of the places where this is a real and present danger. In fact, I'd wager that people who live in these areas have a much more realistic risk assessment than Watson did to begin with.
@elivent
So, I'm unclear as to what you see as the problem. That he was trying to initiate sexual relationships with her? Or that it was done in an elevator at 4 a.m.? If it's the former, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think attempting to have sex is wrong, and can attest to many women that not only take men up on those offers, but often initiate it themselves.
If it's the latter, then I have to come back to the same point I've been harping on... some women don't think this behavior is wrong. In fact, I've personally witnessed similar (it wasn't in Dublin and wasn't at 4am... but in Vegas at 3 am) encounters which had the opposite outcome. Why is making that request inherently wrong?
Posted 1 year ago # -
@Eudaimonist
Nah, no problem with him trying to initiate a sexual relationship. It's all about the 'how'.
Try looking at it this way, though:
Watson had just finished speaking about objectification and sexism in the atheist sphere. She clearly stated that she was tired and going to bed. From what I understand, this guy hadn't even spoken to her once the whole time she was hanging out after the day's events. He waited until she was leaving, followed her, and when she was totally alone, made a pass at her, using the fact that he thought she was "a very interesting person" to invite her back to his room. If he really thought that she was so interesting, why didn't he actually listen to what she had been saying? Why didn't he talk to her when they were still in the group so that they at least had some kind of rapport beforehand? He can't have been that intimidated by her status as a speaker, that's for sure. Overtones of sexism aside, what he did was, at the least, rude, inconsiderate, and disrespectful.
Also, I have to point out that if you've seen similar situations turn out the opposite way in Vegas, they can't have been *that* similar - unless they only involved you and another person. Part of the big creep factor here was that he waited until she was alone and in a confined space.
Posted 1 year ago #
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