Ty
Moderator
Don't get me wrong, Steve is a fine writer. He has an amazing ability to be both prolific and high quality. I am often in awe of his abilities.
But I think the handling of the shift from techno-democracy to feudal agrarianism in this series is ridiculous. It is entirely driven by the needs of the plot, rather than by how humans actually act.
Brian K
Member
I never said people long for simpler times. Only that if the vast energy resources provided by cheap petroleum disappear that simpler societies will evolve. And used fast food fryer oil and solar panels are not going to solve the problem. http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/
Of course, history will not repeat itself exactly. Stirling is a sci fi novelist, not a prophet. But I certainly see that a return to localized, "feudal" social structures could be possible. And, a significant part of the American population would certainly support a Mayor using capital punishment against outsiders...or heretics, or rebellious serfs, or what say you. Why do you find that unrealistic? Americans love them some authoritarian punishment! War on Drugs, anyone?
I actually see Mad Max as a perhaps more realistic immediate future. Until feudalism evolves as people try to restabilize societies on a more localized, low energy basis with a much smaller population. There will be serious instability. It can't happen that way, you say? It is already happening in places like Congo (three MILLION people have died in intratribal wars), Somalia, the Sudan, etc. Heck, until the Brazilian police cracked down this year, there were plenty of local "Humunguses" running the favelas of Rio and Sao Paulo, no?
Ty, I'm reminded of the finding that people who are diagnosed with cancer, or lose a limb, or suffer some other serious trauma, often remark after the fact that they feel they are *better off* than they were before. It isn't particularly rational, but it is very human. We are capable of adjusting to crazy circumstances, and then carrying on with our lives.
I think he was right in calling the mass die-off, but that the way people clustered together in convenient SCA-branded bands after that was a stretch. That said, I think the number of fairly reasonable calls he makes outnumber the bad ones (although some particularly egregious ones, I think, are the rampant cannibalism, the near-instantaneous rise of cottage industries like brewing and smithing, or the coincidental growth of Wicca.)
If I had my druthers, I would spend a lot more time with the self-sufficient, rapidly militarizing monks than with the irritatingly American survivalists and their random British friends, but I suppose that's just him being considerate of his primary audience (lovers of military fiction and fantasy.)
edit: And if I could excise every single reference to the lord of the rings, I would do it in a heartbeat. In fact, I might just do that to all of my copies...
Ty
Moderator
I think people being willing to immediately give up everything we've learned about social justice in the last 1000 years was ludicrous. Seriously, if I were there, I'd be, "Lord Bear? Are you fucking kidding me? Let's have an election and then form a court for criminal trials."
Elemenope
Moderator
I think people being willing to immediately give up everything we've learned about social justice in the last 1000 years was ludicrous. Seriously, if I were there, I'd be, "Lord Bear? Are you fucking kidding me? Let's have an election and then form a court for criminal trials."
While I'm unfamiliar with the particular story that provides this discussion its fictional context, this quote above actually strikes me as problematic. I think, quite to the contrary, that people are generally dissatisfied with the mechanisms that provide social justice (mostly because they don't understand how what they do generates social justice, but do experience the ways in which those methods inconvenience and vex them) and would be willing to give them up over the short term. Once they're gone, they are infinitely more difficult to re-establish. After all, it took a thousand years the first time, and the second time around the feudal lords will be wise to the danger and be on the look out for dangerous democrats.
FO
Member
@Revy: Mao would disagree.
Thing is, we want everything, and we want it now.
But revolutions are not nice and usually end up with the most violent guy firmly on top.
Actual improvement is dicey at best.
Thing is, even a revolution, to be successful, requires people to be organized, aware and committed and to know what they want.
Given this requirements, I'd opt for the slow reform route, if only to spare a few thousands deaths.
All in all, The People has to take responsibility for their condition and commit.
The OWS crowd is doing this, maybe in a clumsy way, maybe in a ineffective way.
And yet, the over reaction of the police on them means they are touching some chord, they managed to make people talk about it.
I don't know whether their strategy is good or not, but I do think that things can be changed from below.
UrsaMinor
Member
Whichever route this takes, the ride could be a bumpy one.
It is interesting and somewhat scary to note that a friend of mine who is a police officer told us last week that all law enforcement personnel in our area have been told by their commanding officers to stockpile non-perishable food and other survival supplies at home. He advised us to do the same.
Revyloution
Member
I am struggling to think of anything that Mao and Gandhi could agree on. Perhaps the color of the sky, but that's a stretch.
As far as stockpiling food and supplies, doesn't everyone do that already? I'm not paranoid, I've just read too much history. It doesn't take much to shut off supply routs, shut down power transmission lines or isolate a community. Having a couple of months of food, water, bullets :) on hand just makes common sense.
UrsaMinor
Member
We have enough basic food supplies to last us about six months. But that's not due to disaster planning, it's because we're cheapskates who like to take advantage of sales on nonperishable items and buy in bulk. The stuff in the freezer, of course, will be deadly poison within a week of the power going out (I've actually been through this scenario in a real natural disaster, and when the melting food reached its last safe consumption date, I fired up the grill, cooked it all, ate what I could, and then fed the rest to anybody else I could grab. You have not lived until you have eaten eggrolls prepared outdoors in a snowstorm on a hibachi).
Most importantly, I have gallons of laundry bleach stored in the basement. I can clean contaminated surfaces and utensils and produce water that is safe to drink without a problem. In a pinch, you can disinfect wounds with it, too. Most people neglect to stock enough of this little gem of a survival tool.
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