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OMG I'm trans...

(152 posts) (21 voices)

Started 1 year ago by ydgmdlu
Latest reply from Caroline

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Francesco
Member

Ok, fine. Can you provide me your response to my arguments, which I have explained and supported by citing what, to me, are flaws in your reasoning?

A syndrome, by it's definition, is an error. And even those affected by CAIS got a male genotype. So, a slong as biology is concerned, they are male. Fenotype doe snot matter, the genotype defines your gender. Besides, you haven't quite answered to my previous arguments.

Saying that someone can be recognised by the bone structer IS NOT transphobia. It's basical anatomy. Are your bones changing their internal structure? Is your pelvis changing is angle? Are you finger bones getting slimer and reducing their sizes? Is your coccyx changing his orientation?

If yes, I'm sorry to you, because that should probably lead to internal laceration and hemorragies. If not, you're still a male by bone structure.

EDIT: by that i'm meanign that, after you die, your flesh decais and every organical tissue departs, when someone discovers your skeleton, they'll idenitify you as a male speciement of Homo Sapiens.

Posted 1 year ago #
julie42
Member

Do you still not get the point FO was trying to make? While more knowledge on a subject definitely means the opinion is more well-informed, it is not necessarily fair to insist that anyone who wants to talk to you must spend hours researching the subject first.

I scanned a few of the links you posted. I considered that I might have overlooked some things. I took a few steps back. But that doesn't erase my prior experiences with the subject or what trans people themselves said about their experiences that led me to form my opinion.

Alright, I thought I gave a decent reason why you should stop calling people transphobic It's a strong word and when you use it, you make people mad which makes them less willing to have a decent discussion with you.
I'll try to be more specific. A phobia is an irrational fear. I am arachnophobic. I have full out panic attacks when I see a spider crawling towards me. I get annoyed when people who simply get annoyed by spiders say they are arachnophobic because that is not accurate. It is not a phobia unless they are really, genuinely afraid.

I understand that transphobia and homophobia tend to mean hatred, rather than fear. But it's still the same sort of idea. I don't hate trans people. I don't feel uncomfortable around them. I have no problems talking to them. So how am I transphobic? Because I have different opinions about it?

Posted 1 year ago #
julie42
Member

"I never suggested, at any time, that those who merely disagree with me are transphobic"

You never suggested it, you just went ahead and called anyone who disagreed with you transphobic. If you're disappointed in the way this conversation is going, maybe it's because you're alienating even the people who agree with you most here?

Posted 1 year ago #
swmr1
Member

Reimer's parents were persuaded to reassign David to be a girl. His testicles were removed, his parents treated him as a girly-girl, and he had regular appointments with Money, who gave him psychotherapy to encourage his female gender identity and monitored and documented the progress of the sex reassignment. David received hormone replacement therapy upon reaching puberty. Money later published his results, claiming that it had been a complete success; his work survived peer review and was accepted by the scientific community. But years later, another researcher investigated the case and discovered that Money was a fraud. In fact, David had always insisted on being a boy and hated being raised as a girl. He was not told of what had been done to him until he was mature. After learning the truth, he took himself off estrogen, got a double mastecomy, and eventually even underwent phalloplasty. He got married, but a short time later, he committed suicide.

I'm not sure I should even dare to ask, but how does this prove that gender is entirely biological? I have ovaries and estrogen (and have all my life) and I didn't want to be raised as a girly-girl either! I hear what you are saying (that there is a biological element) but I also hear you claiming that social constructs of gender have nothing to do with rejecting one's biological sex. I don't see it. Even in this example - David was raised in a culture where genders have very definite definitions. For his example to be relevant as proof that this is entirely biological, he would have to have been raised in a gender-neutral vacuum.

To be honest, I'm not really sure why this is such a sticking point. Is it horrendous for a person to feel like they are the wrong sex because of a mixture of biological and sociological reasons?

Posted 1 year ago #
julie42
Member

And you didn't really respond to me either. I had my opinions about it because transgender people told my class that what really made them their preferred gender was to be socialized as that gender.

Posted 1 year ago #
Jabster
Member

"Is taking cheap shots all that you're going to contribute?"

... are you not going to take the hint?

Posted 1 year ago #
Bill
Member

I've intentionally stayed out of this thread, as it seems like a mine field, but I now feel like I have to ask:

What exactly is the point of this thread?

I mean this in all seriousness. The idea of trans acceptance seems interesting and informative to me, but this discussion has unwound in such a strange manner I'm not sure that's what's happening here.

Any participants have insights?

Posted 1 year ago #
superaction80
Member

There's one aspect of a romantic relationship that (somewhat surprisingly) does not seem to have yet materialized in this thread, and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. I certainly could have missed it. For many people, propagating their own DNA through sexual reproduction is a very real goal of a committed romantic relationship. A person, male or female, desirous of such an outcome, might be well advised to categorically dismiss any potential trans partners out of hand. Would such dismissal make a person transphobic, or just realistic?

Posted 1 year ago #
JonJon
Member

Well, it would make them fairly shallow, at any rate.

Posted 1 year ago #
FO
Member

@superaction80: all the same you could discover too late that your perfectly cis-partner does not want children.
It is something that should be discussed in any long term relationship, so it's not really a specific issue here.

Posted 1 year ago #
Francesco
Member

@Bill

The inital topic was about your reaction if you wife/husband/partner told you after say 20 years that they are transgender. Actually it diverted on the distinction between male and female gender, and it is actually diverging on the classification of androgynous beings, even if that does not have a thing in common with the initial point of the OP

Posted 1 year ago #
superaction80
Member

@FO: you sure could, certainly. But with cis-partners there would by a greater than zero possibility of offspring from the very outset. Such issues are important topics for discussion in a relationship. But would a person who knows from day one that biological parenthood is the a desired outcome be justified in rejecting all trans persons, or is that person a bigot?

Posted 1 year ago #
Kodie
Member

What if your partner, after a while, revealed they have a prosthetic leg? What if they told you they had been raped? What if they used to be a prostitute? What if they used to be Bernie Madoff's prostitute? People have things in their past or things that change what you thought you might be getting into. It is very difficult for me to say how I would feel if the person I was falling in love with, or had married, told me he used to be a woman. I saw on a talk show and was very informative, a panel of guests whose children were transgender, very young children and young teens who say they just always knew. Rather than, when you have a kid, you think you have a boy and "get a little nervous" that he likes dolls, or start to sweat that he likes to dress up like female Disney characters, they were taking it on and letting it happen, long hair and barrettes and name-changes and all.

One man said about his daughter (who was physically born as a boy), that he told his co-worker about it, and it kind of got around that his wife really wanted a girl and was forcing the boy to live as a girl, and that they were abusing the child. Imagine if your child was forced to live as a boy just because she was born as a boy! I know most children like this are probably subject to turmoil of having to have parents who insist on reversing the tendencies, and it was nice to see parents who were willing to let go of what they thought they had to support the emotional health of their trans children. A couple of medical authorities on the program also suggest it is better to go through this, generally if you can, before puberty, than to go through puberty as your born sex and eventually change later. If I recall, a lot of the hormones were reversible, and there's just a point in time where kids know themselves. People don't give children the credit for knowing themselves early on, that children are creative and imaginative and don't really know anything or what they want or what these changes mean for the rest of their lives, but a lot of growing up is finding out and, to some extent, fighting back. It's something of a serious misery to have to spend 20 years or so under house rules and then you have to "rebel," or spend a lot of time waiting to do what you want as soon as you can get away. It seems incongruous to how, as society, we wish to preserve children's innocence, that a major life decision like hormone or surgical therapy can be trusted to them at or before a time when their bodies are changing. It's really difficult to get out of that mindset and actually know that they know, that they've thought about it, struggled, etc. Parents who try to train it out of their children or think they have to wait until they are an adult to make their own decisions isn't supporting their child for who they are, not who they thought they were getting.

Posted 1 year ago #
Nzo
Member

Thanks Custy, for trying to help clarify what I said to this willfully ignorant twit.

It seems that I was spot-on about ydg from the start, and things haven't changed so far. Ostensibly, ydg is here for a rational discussion, but there's such an obvious psychologically f*cked overtone from ydg, that any rational discussion on the subject is drowned out.

Things like:

I am just...speechless. This is the same crap that civil rights activists, feminists, gay rights activists, and atheists have always dealt with. Please tell me, how is it helpful?

First off, you're completely wrong. My post was a wonderful comment on how you're coming across as a person, and said nothing about your cause, sexuality, race, or religious beliefs. You're being a prick, and I don't care if you were born wanting to be an elephant, a robot, or a piece of cheese.

Secondly, it's helpful to post when one can (probably) accurately describe the psychological patty-cake happening.

Third, you deserved to get called out for being such a prick. Even a cursory glance at information on transsexuals shows that there's not really any consensus on much of anything about them, even within the communities. It's as if you have your own particular flavor of definitions, social niceties, and philosophies that we're automatically supposed to know. Kinda like Christians that come here.

You admitted not being informed about transsexuals until now, and yet you're so quick to judgment.

What, beyond your asinine behavior, did I judge? What the F*CK did I judge about transsexuals? Show me, or apologize for being an idiot, and a prick.

I must say that I'm very disappointed in the discussion so far.

If I had written what you've written. I would be as well.

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm getting on my high horse, but I expected so much better from a group of science-loving, self-described rationalists.

No you're not. You're patronizing us by even saying this. It's patently obvious that you, whether consciously or not, need us to hate on you for being a transsexual, and you'll get that hatred by being a prick so you can justify your continued meowling of "You're a transphobe!".

Remember last year when we were all debating NotAshamedOfChrist? We provided rational arguments and pointed him to the scientific support for them. But, as it were, it went in one ear and out the other. He just kept coming back with the same arguments. If that's not willful ignorance, then what is? Unfortunately, that is exactly what I'm seeing here from several posters like Francesco, Nzo, and swmr1.

You have your little story you want to tell, and you'll pitch a b*tch-fit until you get the hate you expect/want/need from us.

Honestly, willful ignorance on something as inconsequential and ambiguous as transsexuality? Blow me. I'm ignorant because I just haven't cared up to this point, nor have I commented in any way that would suggest I'm not open to learning about it.

Those who are debating me keep resorting to ad hominem attacks

Beat yourself in the face with your keyboard until you understand what the f*ck you're saying. Seriously, just don't stop. Willful ignorance my *ss - at least learn the definitions of the words/phrases you're using before calling US ignorant.

Basically, go fuck yourself.

(I f*cking dare you to call anything here 'ad hom(inem)', clown)

Posted 1 year ago #
LRA
Member

Y-

Thank you for your informative posts. Yes, certainly transgenderism has a neurological basis. No question.

I want to address a slightly different problem:

If my partner were to decide to change from a man to a woman, I would leave. The reason being that such a change would now affect my life in a very profound way. I do not want to be married to a woman and I do not want to give up penile/vaginal sex for the rest of my life. It doesn't make me a jerk, it makes me a straight woman.

And FYI, I'm divorced. I divorced my husband for something that also profoundly affected my life and I don't want to get into it here, but because he hid some things from me that were relevant to both our lives, I left. (And to be fair, there were other reasons too. The death of a relationship is often complicated.)

I think you have a perfect right to be who you are and I support that whole heartedly, but I also have a perfect right to be who I am, and who I am, ahem, well... who I am loves dick.

Sorry to be graphic there, but it's true. I really, really like it. If it were taken away from me, I'd be really really sad.

Relationships aren't just companionship and commitment, there is chemistry too. If I am expected to only have sex with my significant other, and my significant other changed genders, then I'd feel compelled to leave. (If, however, my significant other allowed me access to an open relationship, I might stay. But that's complicated, so that's only a maybe.)

Anyway, I don't think I'm a jerk or prejudiced, I think I'm a girl who is biologically programmed to like a certain kind of sex. So are you, Y. You know what you want and what you want to be. I respect that. I hope you can respect my choices too.

Posted 1 year ago #
LRA
Member

Now, having said that, let me also say this...

If I were to discover that a man I was dating had been a woman at some point, I'm not sure how I'd react. I do feel that a woman to man surgery is a bit more complicated than a man to woman surgery (I could be entirely wrong), so I can't help but wonder if it's even possible for a woman to man post op patient to "pass". In any case, if the penis worked and the guy was attractive to me, I'm not sure it would matter to me about the surgery.

Posted 1 year ago #
Elemenope
Moderator

@ydgmdlu

First off, congratulations on your decision!

As to the bulk of the thread, I think on some level you are expecting something that is relatively unreasonable to expect: that a group of people mostly uninformed (due mostly to simple lack of exposure) about the issues surrounding cis- and transgenderism would be cognizant of the appropriate protocols for dealing with subtle distinctions of body image, sexuality, and so forth, much less possess actual and detailed knowledge of the deeper issues. Being cisgendered is a privileged position precisely because cisgendered people don't have to think about being cisgendered at all if they don't want to; that's how social privilege in general operates.

On another level I think it is perhaps shooting the moon a bit to expect a conversation about sexuality and body image--two things much more deeply rooted in the psyche than even one's most tightly held 'chosen' beliefs--to be rational in any but a nominal sense. When the conversation is abstract, perhaps, people can hypothesize with some freedom and latitude, as was the first conversation here about issues of transphobia. However, this becomes far less possible when the subjects and objects of the conversation are more concrete and particular, with the risk of a hypothesis being wrong from simply being wrong ratcheted up to now possibly being offensively wrong. This makes a rational conversation a great deal more difficult because an entirely new dimension of social function is being dragged into the mix; a person who opens their mouth normally merely risks being called a fool, but with this now risks being labeled a bigot as well.

Posted 1 year ago #
Caroline
Member

Well, interesting topic...
What I have to say is that I´m a TG (transwoman) and I am naturally passable (fully passable, thanks God)
But I have a BIG problem, I´m a bigot transphobic :( and because of that bigotry I did my transition at age of 40.
I´ve been such a Yentl all my life. I couldn´t be passable as a man (never ever) since my childhood at school people (specially men) did notice that there were a "woman scent" and they didn´t know where did it come from, because i was perfectly disguissed as male. And that was very uncomfortable for all my social relationships, not to say an odyssey.
And I tried so much to understand the origin of my transphobia.
I´m not sure if it has only one origin... may be there are a multiplicity of factors, including my parents thoughts, my raising, my social environment...
But those are not enough to make from me a bigot transphibic person.
I think that transsexuality is the last resource, only when a person cannot live and cannot let others live due his/her own issue.
May be I hate that most trans people insist in being trans, such as they were eternal mutants (X Men syndrome) and they really like transsexuality as bigots of transsexualism fonds. And that´s so disgusting for me
All the trans people I´ve known seem to not wanting to be normal, and they reject the normal society... And I don´t understand that!!!!
I really live a dark nightmare because I feel ´m a real woman (Pinocchio syndrome) and I´m not actually a transwoman, and I cannot feel the contrary.
So, despite I had my SRS, I really don´t dare to date men, because I feel they will reject me in the same way i would do if I were in their position.
I feel that transphobia is an absolutely reasonable feeling, quite normal and quite healty.
Nevertheless, I live a normal life (only a few and very special people know about my secret) but I feel I really won´t be able to match a man, because in such way... if that man accepts me, he´s not fully normal...
And I know that is a fake thought of my part... but I can´t change my phobia!
I´m sure I never been a man (not even a bit)
I am a real woman now, but I cannot forgive myself the transsexualism I have had to pass through to reach the status of being a woman.
I´m fucked for life. I really wished to have born as a genetic woman.

Posted 1 year ago #
Custador
Moderator

Crileside, there are perfectly normal men in the world who don't care whether you're a trans woman or a born woman. Don't lose hope :-)

Posted 1 year ago #
Caroline
Member

A few month ago I had to finish my paperwork about documentation and identity. And I gone to a certain office in which there were some trans people...
I really couldn´t resist the disgust and I had to go away. I finished my paprework with the help of my father, he accompanied me the subsequent time I went there. And he felt the same as I did.
What we felt??
Strange feelings... I felt I were standing in a quicksand terrain. I felt I couldn´t find a point of view of reality inside that office.
Most of them had big silicone breasts and buttock, other were kinda normal, and a few ones did look quite passables. But none of them felt themselves as real women (or real men in FtM)
They didn´t make a division between trans people and homosexual people.
And I realized that they´re only one mass of unreasonable, undefinite people, because they want to be so.
They always made a difference between normal people and their group of trans people(full of resentment).

I felt I was inside an X MEN movie, being Mystica when Dorian Leech turns her into a normal woman, and Magneto says something like: "Sorry beauty, you´re not useful anymore"

Posted 1 year ago #
Caroline
Member

Thanks Custador :) I´ll keep it in my mind, and in my heart also. Thanks for the space to speak, and for your answer.

Posted 1 year ago #
Francesco
Member

Don't worry LRA, there are many people here who love dick :D And not everyone is female

Posted 1 year ago #
FO
Member

@crileside: there are men that are actually fond of trans or other exotic possibilities.
As Custy said, don't give up.

Regarding your transphobia, consider what those people went through, possibly lacking the means or the knowledge for a quality surgery.
Consider that some of them may feel strange and inadequate, but doing their best not to show it on the outside.

Consider that you may be so angry at them because they have something you don't have, ie a community of understanding people with which to share doubts and fears.
You may want to try and slowly expose yourself at that world, maybe you will see their human side and manage to overcome your phobia.
Also, where there are transgenders, there are people who like transgenders.
Maybe there you will find a man that likes what you are.

Posted 1 year ago #
Kodie
Member

I think if I understand Crileside: just because you are something doesn't mean you want to join the club? With certain marginalized populations, finding one another to find other people going through the same struggles as you are can be good, but if that is the only thing you have in common with them, or perceive them to have another layer that you don't share or want to share? If all the society thinks of trans as "freaks" and you are part of society, and what's visible to you seem to embrace being freaks rather than blend in, that can be off-putting to join the group. I do not agree that all trans are freaks, I don't even really like the word "freak," but there is something when you're lost in the world and can't find support for your needs and goals, because they are far outside the norm and few people willing to understand, or even reject you, to find love and non-judgmental groups who do know how it feels and not turn you away. However, like such, if my therapist says to join a support group, I dislike the activity of commiserating with people who have similar problems to me. I think it's boring and the last thing I really want to make friends over. I just want to be me and go make regular friends in regular settings that suit my personality and interests.

Is that what you are describing?

Posted 1 year ago #
ydgmdlu
Member

TrickQuestion:

I would like to reiterate my first question to you.
What exactly are you trying to do here?

I had originally intended to muse about my experience dealing with trans issues from my own individual point of view. Then other people latched onto certain things, and it all spiralled down from there. I was going to spend time talking my difficulty coming to terms with my transsexuality. I wanted to talk about how, of all the people that I've come out to so far, only my parents have negative and unsupportive, even though both are atheists. I honestly really hate having to go down the rabbit hole that this thread has become, but I feel that is is necessary because there are so many misconceptions and misinformation being brought up here.

You come in, guns blazing, call us names and treat us condescendingly, all the while apparently asking for understanding and acceptance.

Where, specifically did I do that? Where did I call anyone (other than Ty) names? Where was I condescending? You make it sound like it's personal on my part, but where have I been focusing on me, me, me?

Posted 1 year ago #
ydgmdlu
Member

Francesco:

Ok, fine. Can you provide me your response to my arguments, which I have explained and supported by citing what, to me, are flaws in your reasoning?

A syndrome, by it's definition, is an error. And even those affected by CAIS got a male genotype. So, a slong as biology is concerned, they are male. Fenotype doe snot matter, the genotype defines your gender. Besides, you haven't quite answered to my previous arguments.

Saying that someone can be recognised by the bone structer IS NOT transphobia. It's basical anatomy. Are your bones changing their internal structure? Is your pelvis changing is angle? Are you finger bones getting slimer and reducing their sizes? Is your coccyx changing his orientation?

If yes, I'm sorry to you, because that should probably lead to internal laceration and hemorragies. If not, you're still a male by bone structure.

EDIT: by that i'm meanign that, after you die, your flesh decais and every organical tissue departs, when someone discovers your skeleton, they'll idenitify you as a male speciement of Homo Sapiens.

Why must you insist on such a narrow definition of what a "real" woman is? If someone presents herself as a woman and asks that you treat her as a woman, then why is that not good enough for you? And why do you insist that a woman's bone structure must be different from a man's? Sure, there are differences ON AVERAGE. But to insist that a woman's physical features must conform to your (more or less arbitrary) criteria in order for her to be considered a "real" woman is, frankly, sexist. Why do you insist that a distinction be made between those who are "real" women and those who are not?

I notice that you've shifted goalposts, because you previously said that female reproductive organs are what determine who is and is not a "real" woman.

Posted 1 year ago #
ydgmdlu
Member

julie42:

Do you still not get the point FO was trying to make? While more knowledge on a subject definitely means the opinion is more well-informed, it is not necessarily fair to insist that anyone who wants to talk to you must spend hours researching the subject first.

Where did I "insist that anyone who wants to talk to [me] must spend hours researching the subject first"? I've followed fairly standard debating protocol: I presented an argument; then another person presented another argument to counter; then I introduced evidence for the other person to examine and rebut. At what point did I intimate that I expected everyone to be fully read-up on the subject? What happened is that you, swmr1, etc., then totally ignored the evidence that I presented and basically restated your original argument. I am reacting to that.

Please don't be melodramatic and claim that I'm trying to give you "hours" of homework. The fact that you've been posting rather detailed comments in this thread says to me that you have an interest in the subject, so I'd expect someone like you to want more information than you previously had. Are you just here to have a one-sided argument where information introduced by another person doesn't matter? If you have any interest in having well-informed opinions about gender identity and transgenderism, then why would you complain about spending a few minutes (not "hours") reading about the basics?

Alright, I thought I gave a decent reason why you should stop calling people transphobic It's a strong word and when you use it, you make people mad which makes them less willing to have a decent discussion with you.

Where did I call a PERSON "transphobic" (other than Ty)? I've only ever pointed to specific STATEMENTS (and perhaps attitudes) and called them "insensitive," "ignorant," "sexist," and "transphobic." Where did I ever insinuate that I thought that a person in this thread was a hate-filled bigot?

I'll try to be more specific. A phobia is an irrational fear. I am arachnophobic. I have full out panic attacks when I see a spider crawling towards me. I get annoyed when people who simply get annoyed by spiders say they are arachnophobic because that is not accurate. It is not a phobia unless they are really, genuinely afraid.

I understand that transphobia and homophobia tend to mean hatred, rather than fear. But it's still the same sort of idea. I don't hate trans people. I don't feel uncomfortable around them. I have no problems talking to them.

Homophobia and transphobia do not only involve active hatred or fear. They could be something as simple as prejudice and discrimination. How would you feel if a man said that you were not a "real" woman because of certain traits (physical and/or behavioral) that don't fit his definition of womanhood? Would you not call him (or at least his statements) "sexist" or "misogynistic"? If someone said, "Black people are less intelligent than white people," would that not be "racist," even though the statement, in itself, expresses no active hatred or fear?

So how am I transphobic? Because I have different opinions about it?

Where did I call you transphobic? And where did you attempt to rebut the arguments and evidence that I introduced?

You never suggested it, you just went ahead and called anyone who disagreed with you transphobic.

Specifically, where did I do that?

Let me ask you this: If someone really was transphobic or said something transphobic and wasn't aware that she/he offended anyone, then how would you make them understand? A brief story: Several summers ago, I was talking with my roommate one night, and he casually referred to homosexuals as "fags." I immediately told him that it was a homophobic thing to say. He didn't understand at first, so I pointed him to a dictionary definition stating that "fag" is a homophobic slur. My friend wasn't a homophobic person, just a bit ignorant. What he SAID was homophobic.

And you didn't really respond to me either. I had my opinions about it because transgender people told my class that what really made them their preferred gender was to be socialized as that gender.

Maybe you misinterpreted them. But please note that I said earlier that experiences and feelings and motivations vary greatly among trans people. To draw conclusions about an entire group based only on the testimony of a few is a bit unfair, no? It's like when homophobes point to the small number of people who claim to be "ex-gay" to argue that reparative therapy is benefical and effective. If anything, it may indicate some confirmation bias involved. How do you respond to the evidence that I presented?

Posted 1 year ago #
Custador
Moderator

Ygdmlu, I'm really sorry but this has to be said: You seem to want the world to be a perfect place where a trans woman can have a body so feminine as to be indistinguishable from a body that's genetically female. I think you probably know that's rare. You're attempting to argue a semantic point that really isn't a semantic point - Gender is a spectrum, but the terminals at either end of that spectrum are male and female. I'm sure you're mentally and emotionally a real woman, but unless you can master brain transplantation, you are never going to have a real female body. Please stop throwing around accusations that people are "----ist" simply because they don't agree with you. It only makes people less likely to listen to points which are not particularly convincing in the first place.

Francesco is right, and it's stunningly self-deceiving of you to claim that he's not: There are physical differences between men and women which (except in rare cases) are almost impossible to alter with current medical and surgical techniques. Once again, you cannot take an observation of the plain facts and try to make out that somebody's transphobic just for stating them.

Posted 1 year ago #
ydgmdlu
Member

swmr1:

I'm not sure I should even dare to ask, but how does this prove that gender is entirely biological? I have ovaries and estrogen (and have all my life) and I didn't want to be raised as a girly-girl either! I hear what you are saying (that there is a biological element) but I also hear you claiming that social constructs of gender have nothing to do with rejecting one's biological sex. I don't see it. Even in this example - David was raised in a culture where genders have very definite definitions. For his example to be relevant as proof that this is entirely biological, he would have to have been raised in a gender-neutral vacuum.

First of all, I explicitly said earlier that neither I nor most LGBT and feminist people believe that gender is "entirely biological." I don't think that any thinking person holds that view. What I'm saying is that gender identity has a fundamental neurological component. There are differences in brain structure, generally speaking, between males and females, which indicate that men and women have somewhat different emotional and cognitive characteristics. These differences could be seen as how a person can "feel like a woman" or "feel like a man" without merely buying into gender stereotypes.

A cisgender person may not be able to "feel" her/his gender because there's nothing out of the ordinary to notice. If you spent your whole life in a room with a particular odor, then you may not realize that the room has any odor. To you, it's just normal. You can't imagine any other space smelling any other way. If you have scented objects in the room, you can distinguish their odors, but the room itself, in your perception, "has no smell." But if you go do a different place with a different odor, then suddenly you realize that the air has a different smell. After a while, you get used to the smell of the new place. And chances are that when you go back to your room, you'll suddenly notice that it had a smell all along.

According to the "social constructionist" view of gender, all children are born without any sense of gender identity, and therefore, they can be socialized to accept any gender identity. The fact that David Reimer could never accept being reassigned to be a girl proves that gender is not entirely socially-constructed. When John Money's work was discredited, the social construction theory of gender fell out of favor. Here's an excerpt from a Slate article about Reimer:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2004/06/gender_gap.html

At age 2, Brenda angrily tore off her dresses. She refused to play with dolls and would beat up her brother and seize his toy cars and guns. In school, she was relentlessly teased for her masculine gait, tastes, and behaviors. She complained to her parents and teachers that she felt like a boy; the adults—on Dr. Money's strict orders of secrecy—insisted that she was only going through a phase.

It wasn't that David wanted to be a girly-girl. He simply didn't identify with a female gender identity at all. He was miserable, and he didn't know why, until his parents told him that he was born a boy. How would you explain his feelings, his experience? Furthermore, you say that you're not a girly-girl, but why do you still identify as a woman? It can't be just the fact that you have female reproductive organs, as those are hidden from view in all but the most private of circumstances.

How do you explain the fact that the vast majority of transsexuals who undergo transition experience relief from their gender dysphoria? Please note that not all transitions involve sex reassignment surgery. For various reasons, many trans men decide to keep their vaginas intact, and many trans women decide to keep their penises and/or testicles intact. Clearly, their desire to live as a gender other than the one assigned at birth is more than just a case of body dysmorphic disorder.

To be honest, I'm not really sure why this is such a sticking point. Is it horrendous for a person to feel like they are the wrong sex because of a mixture of biological and sociological reasons?

What do you mean by "horrendous"? It can be a miserable experience for trans people. Not all trans people decide or desire to transition. Transition happens when a person comes believe that she/he cannot live happily as the gender assigned at birth, that not transitioning will lead to more social/emotional/sexual/etc. dysfunction. The official stance of mental professionals is that "gender identity disorder" is not a mental disorder in the sense that the patients are delusional. It is a "disorder" in terms of functional impairment and suffering, and it is only diagnosed when such functional impairment has been demonstrated.

Believe it or not, I do understand, and somewhat agree with, your position. I think that where we fundamentally disagree is about a trans person's motivations. In my view, what causes a trans person to identify with the physical and social aspects of the "male" or "female" gender is neuorological in nature, not psychological. I identify as trans not because a certain set of "feminine" traits appeal to me. It's because I identify with the entire notion/concept of being female. If I grew up in a culture with a very different set of feminine ideals, I believe that I'd still want to live as a woman. My gender identity causes those socially-constructed aspects of gender to resonate with me.

By the way, you ignored my example of Myriam Joire as a transsexual who utterly defies gender conventions. I'll bet that she's far less of a girly-girl than you are, and yet she still identifies as a woman! Here is her profile on Engadget: http://www.engadget.com/editor/myriam-joire

Posted 1 year ago #
ydgmdlu
Member

superaction80:

For many people, propagating their own DNA through sexual reproduction is a very real goal of a committed romantic relationship. A person, male or female, desirous of such an outcome, might be well advised to categorically dismiss any potential trans partners out of hand. Would such dismissal make a person transphobic, or just realistic?
...
But with cis-partners there would by a greater than zero possibility of offspring from the very outset. Such issues are important topics for discussion in a relationship. But would a person who knows from day one that biological parenthood is the a desired outcome be justified in rejecting all trans persons, or is that person a bigot?

If a person does not want a romantic relationship with any trans person specifically because she/he wants to have biological offspring with her/his partner, then it's not transphobic. It's no more a problem than when people avoid courting those who merely don't want children or are in some other way infertile. However, if someone were to argue that she/he is unable to feel attraction toward any trans person because the natural instinct to propagate DNA somehow naturally precludes attraction to trans people, then the argument (and perhaps the person) is transphobic. It's similar to the argument (which former Congressman Alan Keyes made several years ago) that same-sex marriage should not be legalized as "true marriage" because the institution of marriage arose out of humans' instinctual desire to reproduce and raise a family. It's a nonsensical, pseudoscientific excuse to justify bigotry.

Thank you for asking, by the way. I really appreciate it.

Posted 1 year ago #

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