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1. 

   FO
   Member

   The overwhelming majority of Muslims, just like Christians, are very nice people.

   Violent Muslims make better news than the pacific ones, and the leaders that denounced violence were ignored.
   Further, religion is a powerful political tool and in many countries Islam is indeed exploited for political ends even more than Christianity: the violent and bigoted attitude is more the result of cultural and political drives than actual religious fervour.

   Still, I wonder.
   Is this all hype, or is actually Islam more prone to be exploited?

   Posted 11 months ago #
2. 

   arrakis
   Member

   Just my two cents...

   (Please excuse my sweeping generalizations about history...I'm used to writing lengthy research papers and would prefer brevity here. I won't argue about the merits of Christianity, either. Both religions, and all, for that matter, are equally wrong.)

   In Europe, Christianity was spread throughout the Roman Empire. Rome collapsed and the Dark Ages rolled in. With a pinch of Black Death, society turned over and the Renaissance occurred. Working conditions and wages improved, and the arts flourished. The Protestant Reformation caused several wars, including the Wars of Religion in France and the Thirty Years' War in continental Europe. It was only after the Enlightenment in the late 1700s that human rights movements really started to take off, with slavery being gradually eliminated and female suffrage being granted in the 20th century. Even today, there are still debates over gay rights in advanced western nations. Although there have always been atheists and agnostics, they haven't revealed themselves in notable numbers until the recent advent of the internet.

   Islam was founded several hundred years after Christianity. The Middle East has seen its share of wars and the flourishing of the arts, but throughout history the Middle East has been exploited by both natives (i.e. Saudi Arabia) and outsiders (i.e. Afghanistan). I wonder if the combination of the hundreds of years gap in religious development and the exploitation of predominantly Islamic countries has not given Islam and Islamic countries the opportunity to mature like traditionally Christian Euro-American countries.

   As a historian, I am fascinated by the Arab Spring and the current events in Syria. For the first time in history, millions of people will have a taste of self-determination. Change will not happen all at once, but perhaps steps will be taken in the right direction.

   Posted 11 months ago #
3. 

   FO
   Member

   Yes, the Arab spring does change the view one may have on Islam.
   I still wonder about the importance of the Wikileaks cables in sparking the rebellion, though.

   Posted 11 months ago #
4. 

   Revyloution
   Member

   I'm going to broadbrush this one.

   All religions are equally bad. They all have crazy tenets. The problem is economic, not dogmatic. Many Islamic countries (at least the ones that come up in the news regularly) are full of valuable natural resources, and ignorant poor people. In this kind of climate, religion becomes a tool that is easily used to whip up people into a rage. Even peaceful Buddhism was used to inspire the troops of Japan.

   The best way to fix Islam is to make the people in that country more financially secure, give them education, and peace will follow.

   Posted 11 months ago #
5. 

   Brian K
   Member

   Revy's post is why I believe that religion will in no way disappear. Because I believe the industrial "system" of corporate capitalism is unsustainable and is now cracking up. So...people will turn back to relgion when they can no longer afford new iPads. :)

   (I am being simplistic, of course...but...)

   Posted 11 months ago #
6. 

   Mark the Pilgrim
   Member

   Revy hit the nail on the head IMO. I would also add that with the failure of Pan-Arabism to unite the Middle East and North Africa, many individuals in Muslim countries who are dissatisfied with the lack of economic equality they were promised by their leaders from the 1960s upwards have began to associate the endemic corruption and lack of opportunity with the West, which has only been frustrated with Western intervention in the area. So they cling onto a cultural unifier: Islam, as it represents what they perceive to be traditional values and clarity which can stand up to their corrupt leaders and to Western dominance. You had something similar in pre-independence Africa, where Pan-Africanism swept the continent and Africans looked to traditional values and shared experiences to rebel against Western oppression. Of course most Africans used slightly different methods. Whilst us Africans did the whole tofu-eating dashiki-wearing shtick, many Muslims are going through their conservative, back-to-basics shtick which emphasises adherence to 'traditional' Muslim values and which often views the West as an adversary of Muslims.

   That and other reasons are why we're seeing the rise of Islamic terrorism and fundamentalism. If the socio-economic conditions are addressed, I think we'll see a more secular and peaceful Middle East arise.

   Posted 11 months ago #
7. 

   FO
   Member

   Yup.
   I do believe widespread education is the primary key to solve many of the worlds' problems.

   But yes, a religion is just what the believers make of it, so doctrinal comparisons like the one I was trying to make are rather pointless.

   Posted 11 months ago #
8. 

   Brian K
   Member

   But the problem is much of the "education" which is occurring is in Madrassas funded by our bestest-buddies in the world, Saudi Arabia. "Education" appears to be making things worse!

   Posted 11 months ago #
9. 

   Revyloution
   Member

   FO, I wouldnt say your questions were pointless. That's exactly why I started my post with 'im going to broadbrush this'. Broadbrushing an issue is a fine way to redefine the argument, but fails to address the finer points. I think that the three Abrahamic religions are close to equal when it comes to potential exploitation. Just due to their track record alone, I think the evidence supports the claim that they are more exploitable than any other religion to date. Other religions are far more hospitable to progressive values, I have little to complain about the Bahai's, Jains or modern Buddhists.
   I think it's perfectly fair to judge the various inanities that have been inflicted upon our societies, and say to the most egregious, 'why can't you be more like them?'

   Posted 11 months ago #
10. 

    kessy_athena
    Member

    While I don't have a very deep understanding of either Christian or Islamic theology, with what I do know I honestly see no significant differences between them in strictly theological terms. Or Judaism, for that matter.

    In social terms, the different religions are at different stages of development in different communities, and it's somewhat dangerous to generalize. For example, Christianity in, say, Sweden is clearly at a different stage then in, say, Guatemala. It does seem to me that the Arab world generally seems to be at a stage that's a bit like where the West was perhaps 200 years ago. You have a very devout core of believers, and you have a much more secular part of society who still give lip service to the religion, since it's not really socially acceptable to directly challenge the religious establishment.

    Also remember that the Arab world and the Muslim World are not the same thing. Indonesia is the most populous muslim country in the world, and it's decidedly not Arab. It also seems to have a somewhat mellower brand of Islam.

    I do think what's been going on in the Middle East is more about economics, politics, and social issues then about religion per se. I would suggest that most of the time when a religion is associated with bad behavior, it is usually the case that the religion serves as a vehicle to facilitate the bad behavior, and not the source of it.

    @ Revy:
    I think you may be confus9ing religion with ideology. I define ideology as a combination of an absolute belief that one is correct and a belief that this makes one morally superior to non believers. I agree that all ideologies come down to the same thing, but not all ideologies are religions, and not all religions are ideologies. In fact, *any* set of ideas can be turned into ideology. Including atheism - remember the Soviet Union?

    Also, a small nit to pick - if you're referring to the period of Japanese history between the Meiji Restoration and WWII, it was the native Shinto religion that was turned into a national ideology, not Buddhism.

    Posted 11 months ago #
11. 

    Brian K
    Member

    kessy: One difference is the pernicious influence of Saudi Arabia and its Wahabiism. Imagine the most virulent elements of Opus Dei funding a network of fanatical schools around the world.

    Posted 10 months ago #
12. 

    kessy_athena
    Member

    @Brian: True, but that's about the current political situation, not anything inherent in the religion itself. For example, it seems to me that a few centuries ago the Dominicans were about in the same category as the Wahhabis today.

    Posted 10 months ago #
13. 

    Brian K
    Member

    Can't disagree, Kessy.

    One thing in your earlier post caught my eye:

    "I do think what's been going on in the Middle East is more about economics, politics, and social issues then about religion per se. I would suggest that most of the time when a religion is associated with bad behavior, it is usually the case that the religion serves as a vehicle to facilitate the bad behavior, and not the source of it."

    I would agree but religion, based as it is on unchallengable true claims and history and fear of death and all in group thinking...all the goodies associated with the supernatural means that religion is uniquely suited to AMPLIYING bad bahavior.

    Posted 10 months ago #
14. 

    kessy_athena
    Member

    @Brian: I can agree with the general sentiment, but I have to take issue with some of the nuance. I don't think that religion is *uniquely* suited to amplifying bad behavior. Just look at recent history. The Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, heck even look at what happened with the ideals of democracy in the hands of Robespierre and Napoleon during the French Revolution. I have to go back to what I said earlier - once it becomes an ideology, what the particular ideas involved are is almost completely irrelevant. Communism, Fascism, Democracy, Christianity, Islam - they're all radically different sets of ideas that all gave raise to ideological regimes that acted in very similar ways.

    Also, be careful about thinking that Christianity and its relatives are representative of religion in general. In some ways the Atenist religions are extremely unusual compared to world religions as a whole. Most religions do not say that there is only one true god, and everyone *must* worship that god. Most religions do not say that the fate of your soul for all eternity is entirely dependent on believing the right thing. And most religions do not claim infallibility or absolute authority. Many religions do not make the sort of sharp distinction between the natural and the supernatural. (Personally, as a pagan, I explicitly reject the distinction.)

    However, I do very much agree that there are aspects of the Atenist religions that do make them unusually prone to falling into ideology and all the nastiness that can lead to.

    Posted 10 months ago #
15. 

    saudi_atheist
    Member

    As a former practitioner of the islamic cult and having grown in perhaps the most religious society in the modern times, i have to disagree with the above posts. I wish you fellows were right, but thats not what I see or what I have been taught.

    Islam is unique amongst religions, in that it does not permit innovation, (bidah) or reinterpretation to suit modern times and conditions (qufr). Unlike other written religions, it contains verses that specifically forbid this. Also, unlike any other religion it contains written passages prescribing death penalty for leaving islam or expressing doubts (qufr) and verses prescribing obligatory holy war against the unbelievers (jihad) upon all able bodied muslim males and verses forbiding peace treaties with the nonmuslims (qufars) accepting only temporary truces in times of military weakness. As such, islam cannot be modernised, mellowed, reformed or tamed.

    Show me one other religion that is like my former faith and you will convince me that I am wrong. I want to be wrong about this. It is in my interest to be wrong, because I am cursed to live in the abode of islam. Accident of birth.

    That is not to say that islam is the worst religion in history. Other religions condined and glorified cannibalism, which islam forbids.

    I believe islam may have been adaptive for the harsh, primitive desert conditions of 7th centuries Arabian deserts, but its innability to adapt to 21st century, because its verses forbid it specifically (those inventors of islam were quite sneaky and sly about it: keep the racket going forever), makes islam awfully anachronic.

    Abdul

    Posted 9 months ago #
16. 

    FO
    Member

    Welcome back Abdul! ^_^
    I was wondering where were you!

    All the Muslim I know are secularized and don't give a flying fuck of most of the prescriptions of Islam.
    Christianity too prescribes quite some horrible things, and not too long ago it wasn't so different than Islam in, say, Saudi Arabia.

    The explicit prescription against innovation and reinterpretation seems unique, though.
    Indeed, they seem good candidates to explain why, with respect to Christianity, Islam has been so slow to modernize.

    Posted 9 months ago #
17. 

    Revyloution
    Member

    Abdul, there are Muslims here in the US that are progressive and liberal in many ways. They interpret the passages about killing apostates, war treaties, giving women only half a vote, etc, to be 'laws for the time', and 'metaphorical'. Quite similar to the progressive liberal Christians that ignore the biblical passages about killing gays, apostates, women who get married who aren't virgins, stoning people who work on the Sabbath, etc, etc...

    Ive read both the Koran and the Bible, and neither has a monopoly on evil. Both are filled with terrible commandments, as well as some decent ideas. The problem with Islam today, vs Christianity, is that a much larger chunk of Muslims seem to take the Koran literally.

    Posted 9 months ago #

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