No one truly understands it. One of my close buds (who will be at mile hi con) is one of the bestsellers in that genre, and she has no idea why it's popular.
When all is said and done
(184 posts) (29 voices)-
Ty
ModeratorSo, since this thread has sort of turned into my writing odyssey, I will mention that I got my cover proof today. I know it's just a book cover with nothing inside, but it gave me chills.
Also, the cover is gorgeous in person. Orbit has done everything possible to make this book succeed. If it doesn't I won't be able to blame anyone else for that.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Revyloution
MemberWhat's really needed is a marriage of the romance novel, and the porn industry. The combination of a good (or at least decent) story line mixed with some good lesbian pool side action would be great! Far better than the stories of a pizza delivery guy who gets pulled in to a threesome. Most porn plots seem like the fevered daydreams of a 16 year old.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Anyone who watches porn for the plots misses the point of porn.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Paying the best doesn't mean it was the most prestigious. It reminds me of Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions where his novels were printed alongside pornographic pictures, and it paid him very well. Of course, it had very little to do with his story and more to do with the naked women.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ty
ModeratorStoic, it paid well in addition to being prestigious. Because they paid so well, everyone submitted to them first, which means they could take their pick of the very best genre fiction being offered at the time.
A lot of sci fi and mystery luminaries published their early works in Playboy.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm fully aware of the history of Playboy, a few of my favorite authors had short stories published with them (Updike, Vonnegut, Cheever).. but this doesn't make it prestigious. If you were going to call it prestigious, you'd have to list it alongside The American Review, New Yorker, etc. and that would be a crime against all things literary.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Elemenope
ModeratorIf you were going to call it prestigious, you'd have to list it alongside The American Review, New Yorker, etc. and that would be a crime against all things literary.
The New Yorker is a crime against all things literary. I've never read a glossy that had such opaque writing that nonetheless managed, most of the time, to never say anything substantive.
And their movie reviewers are *idiots*.
In company like that, tie goes to Playboy. I'll give you the American Review, though.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ty
ModeratorIf you guys want to visit the newly updated (and Jimmy Corey-ized) website, come on over to the Lizard Brain and say hi.
I've just posted my rant on morality tales in American versus Japanese horror. My writing partner Daniel has attempted to explain what draws people to Urban Fantasy. A good way to waste ten minutes I think.
Posted 2 years ago # -
@Ty
I'm talking about literary prestige, not simply being published or getting a big paycheck. John Updike actually commented on this: "Today, if something is sent back from the New Yorker, what do you do with it? You send it to Playboy."
@ LMNOP
I actually cancelled my subscription to the New Yorker last year, but after having read about five years' worth of their work I can safely say that your evaluation must be based off of limited reading. Everyone thinks movie critics are idiots, no matter who they write for.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Elemenope
ModeratorI actually cancelled my subscription to the New Yorker last year, but after having read about five years' worth of their work I can safely say that your evaluation must be based off of limited reading.
Two years for me, so fair to say more limited than you, but not by any stretch a small sample. Really the only articles I found stimulating were when they occasionally found an interesting long-form article on foreign policy or law. Even their (occasional) philosophy stuff was pretty obtuse, emphasizing pomo and critical theory.
Everyone thinks movie critics are idiots, no matter who they write for.
Yeah, certainly, but I don't mean in the sense that they come to different conclusions than I do. I often disagree with Ebert, for example, but I still enjoy reading his reviews. It's that they tend to encourage in their review staff the use of the most rarefied criteria for analysis (with either convoluted, unbelievable stretches or far-fetched connections to obscure works) that have little if anything to do with whether or not a viewer will enjoy the movie or whether it has aesthetic merit. They mix in with that an overdeveloped sense of social consciousness that finds offense in subtexts that are clearly not intended and quite possibly aren't even legitimately discerned, and the result is both infuriating and unreadable.
Posted 2 years ago # -
"Two years for me, so fair to say more limited than you, but not by any stretch a small sample. Really the only articles I found stimulating were when they occasionally found an interesting long-form article on foreign policy or law. Even their (occasional) philosophy stuff was pretty obtuse, emphasizing pomo and critical theory." (How do you do italics?!)
I completely agree about the philosophy stuff - I'd almost rather read fundie material than pomo material. But I've always found the rest engaging, informative, and generally a great critique on cultural memes.
"It's that they tend to encourage in their review staff the use of the most rarefied criteria for analysis "
That's actually why I enjoy reading the New Yorker's movie reviews. If I want to see whether or not I will enjoy the movie or it has merit, I can go online (Rotten Tomatoes, generally speaking) and find thousands of critics who will be able to tell me whether or not I will have a good time.
It takes a critic with a great knowledge of film (and film history) in order to dig deeper. I agree that most of the obscure film references could be left alone (whenever somebody starts talking about "little known Italian film ______" I begin dry-heaving), but I enjoy the unique approach towards critique.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Elemenope
Moderator(How do you do italics?!)
Use the "em" HTML tag. Surround that which you wish to italicize with [em] and [/em], except instead of square brackets use angle brackets.
It takes a critic with a great knowledge of film (and film history) in order to dig deeper. I agree that most of the obscure film references could be left alone (whenever somebody starts talking about "little known Italian film ______" I begin dry-heaving), but I enjoy the unique approach towards critique.
I also value that (which is why I mentioned Ebert, who has a vast and terrifying knowledge of film and it shows), but I guess I can't get past the part where they tend to have to, in a sense, always be proving that they're the smartest kids in the class. It's one thing to do an occasional obscure reference when it is particularly apropos, and another thing entirely to do it compulsively. It's cool that you can get a lot out of it, but for me I can't get past the dry-heaving. :)
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ty
Moderator"literary prestige"
Yeah, which has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I specifically mentioned 'genre fiction' in every post. Genre fiction, by and large, is blocked from receiving any of the prestigious literary awards.
This may be the great divide in our opinion on this topic. I work in and primarily read genre fiction. Sounds like you're more of a lit fic guy. I've read quite a bit of the New Yorker (I always seem to work for someone with a subscription), and I find that brand of lit fic makes the eyes roll out of my head. I agree with Nope that you can almost hear the person fapping away as they try to prove how smart they are.
But, yes. If you want to be a big name in lit fic, send your stuff to the New Yorker. You want prestige (at least in the 70's) in sci fi or mystery, then getting published in Playboy was a good start.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Romance novels being the best selling pop literary genre shouldn't surprise anyone. It has been for the entire existence of the popular novel. Frankly, it will continue to be for the entire future existence of same. But don't think of it like porn. That's not exactly what it does. Think of it like Die Hard, or Lethal Weapon, and their subsidiaries. It gives its audience exactly what they want from a novel in the most convenient package possible, and at the same time, it conditions people to *like* the thing it happens to be packaging. This is the same reason we still have soap operas even though everyone agrees they're terrible, and the same reason that slightly more upscale variants like Desperate Housewives (or its "reality"- based contemporary substitutes) are basically exactly the same thing as a soap. Whether people know (or admit) it or not, the reason that these genred kinds of literature sell so well, is ultimately because people (regardless of their intelligence, education, etc.) like them best.
Edit:
Hemingway was published extensively in Esquire and other men's magazines. So were many of his contemporary writers. So men's magazines have a pretty good track record, IMO. I will be curious to see how this trend plays out in the future.
Edit Edit: Who, in their right mind, wants a big name in lit fic? I think people capable of writing something in the upper echelons of popular lit fic should try to do something useful with their lives. Or jump off a bridge. Anything but write more lit fic. Frankly, they should champion some genre fiction and get the New Yorker types to recognize it as a legit enterprise.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ty
ModeratorWe have made some headway there. Michael Chabon is well loved in literary circles even though what he writes is very very smart genre fiction. The Yiddish Policeman's Union won the Hugo last year, and got a lot of literary acclaim at the same time.
Usually, though, what you find is people who are writing literary style genre fiction loudly proclaiming that they are doing nothing of the sort. And the fans are even worse. Want to pick a fight with a lit major? Tell him that 1984 is science fiction.
Posted 2 years ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.