Elizabeth, I'm curious. I don't want to call you out, but I'd be interested in hearing why you think hostility is a good communication strategy in theist/atheist debate. If you don't think it is a good strategy, and don't *intend* to be actively hostile/belligerent, then could you just briefly let me know? I don't want to enter into discussions if I'm misinterpreting your comments.
So...(17 posts) (5 voices)
The contradictions are so obvious, how can you not see them? You don't want to call me out while you call me out?
And you ask loaded questions? Who's hostile? That's a leap that isn't backed up by an objective look at all my posts.
I'm also not in any way hostile in atheist/theist debate. That's a huge assumption. Especially since I'm pretty sure you are the first theist I have encountered on this forum, and we haven't had that debate.
so, what's the protocol on call out threads?
So, there was really no discussion to be had. You had made up your mind, filled it with ignorant assumptions and just ran with it?
Can you point me to the thread or post where I engaged in a theist vs. atheist debate and specifically what was "hostile"?
Don't think you can.
And can you explain why you do things you don't want to do, like say, posting call out threads to bash other members?
So, maybe I do have the wrong idea about you. It's hard to tell, since you've given me no background information. You've been very offended when people imply you're a theist.
This leaves two broad possibilities. Either you are a theist, in which case you are not representing your faith well, and also in which case I don't apologize for my actions in any way. Or, you may be a non-theist, and you may simply be frustrated by atheist attitudes toward theism. I agree these attitudes can be frustrating, but in this case I would encourage you to keep a clear head and not make it difficult for people who might agree with you in some respects to say anything substantive.
If your own position is not one of these two, then I don't feel qualified to comment upon your situation, but only upon the things you've actually written down. The things you've actually written down are occasionally correct (as far as I know) but usually either unnecessary or disruptive. That doesn't depend on your own position at all. It's just true.
You haven't answered my question in this thread yet. Is it safe to assume you won't do so?
Offended? That's silly. Again, another assumption on your part.
You are also assuming my head isn't clear? That's silly as well.
Look: I'm not on a car talk forum. I don't know jack shit about mechanics of vehicles. I can't change my own oil. I wouldn't show up on a forum like that and pretend I did just because I read a manual somewhere.
So this idea you - or others have - that I think I know everything is just stupid.
I do post on subjects I am educated in. And I don't engage in discussion or debate with a position unless I've already argued against my own position enough times to know it's solid.
I have not participated in a theism vs. atheism debate on this forum. So your claim that I am hostile when I do is just nonsense.
And while you might think something is unnecessary, that is your opinion. Fine. So be it. I'm for clarity. As for disruptive, I'm not going to be held responsible because someone interjects their own tone or assumptions into what I put in text. (like you have). Either step back and read the actual words I'm writing and ask questions if you need clarity or don't. But I'm not going to apologize for my personality - which lends itself to being more abrasive than some others. I'm not here for a popularity contest. I don't care if you don't like me. I know you don't know me. I know you haven't even really attempted to know me.
You don't call me out with a "hey Elizabeth, so, let's just talk a bit". Instead you call me out to bash me based on assumptions you have already convinced yourself are true.
Online communities can be a lot of things. There are always dynamics involved. The "community" is in play and often times, just like entering a bar you've never been in, the "regulars" are by default skeptic of the new patron. All it takes is one regular to whisper in the ear of another or challenge the new patron for the rest of the team to engage in prejudice for no other reason but loyalty.
You could have opened this thread and started with "can I buy ya a drink?"
So if you don't like that my response to your hostility is abrasive, consider your first approach to engage me was loaded with "what JonJon thinks" already.
I don't answer loaded questions. Ask one that isn't.
Fair enough. Are you willing to talk about your own position on Christianity? I'm having trouble coming up with a substantive question because I'm just not sure what you are interested or educated in. For myself, I know a great deal about literature, a fair bit about philosophy and theology, and probably too much about sci-fi and fantasy novels. I really don't mean to call you out in this thread. My OP was a legitimate question. (Although, you're correct, I mis-phrased it when I included "theist/atheist.") Knowing more about your attitude toward your particular style and tone *is* necessary for me to engage with you in any kind of useful way. You're right that I assumed you were being intentionally hostile. I still think you are to some extent. That's okay with me: I know lots of overtly hostile people on these boards.
But right now, I *am* learning a fair bit about what it is that you intend when you say things like "catch up," "chill out," and when you call people's arguments silly, or stupid.
You're right in pointing out that I am starting out fairly hostile toward you. I'm often a hostile person, but I also often tone it down. Normally people new to a community have to play nice with the crotchety old folks. If that's unacceptable to you, then that's fine. It's also something I'd like to know before I interact with you at length.
You're right, I called you out--in the sense that I really wanted to use a thread to talk just to you and figure out what on earth you were thinking when you posted in other threads, etc. My goal here was never to give you the smack down or just insult you forever. I asked a loaded question, yes, but I gave you an awesome prepackaged "out." I also only asked this question after you'd been involved in several lengthy discussion which I made sure to read in their entirety.
Anyway... How 'bout them <insert team name>?
"how bout them... "
Currently living in Chicago, I'm supposed to root for the Hawks taking the Stanley. Growing up in NE Ohio, I have absolutely zero interest in hockey and no clue what it is like to be *this* close to any sort of championship.
It bothers me tremendously when other cities pretend they are like Cleveland in this aspect. They aren't. We don't just lose, we bait and switch. It's toxic. We are abused by every sports team every season every year every time. For decades. I don't blame LeBron for leaving. And I will always be a Browns fan.
"Are you willing to talk about your own position on Christianity?"
I was a devout (that word is so abused) Christian for over a decade. Abstained from sex for 13 years. Abstained from alcohol for 13 years. Taught children, women, men, and others about the biblical teachings on purity, obedience, prayer, and pretty much all aspects of the faith. I'm in broadcast radio, and spent many of those years with religious stations - both talk/teaching and CCM. Spoke to masses of people in arenas, school rooms, camps, and the like, in addition to reaching millions with the pulpit behind the mic. I mentored high school and college girls and trained and coached pastors on sermons, worship, and the like, in addition to being on the communications team of every church I attended. Those churches included Salvation Army, Vineyard, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Grace Brethren, and many others.
I am classified a "Teacher" according to Jung's theory. (that accounts for the delivery of my opinions and instructive nature of my statements). I back that up with great study and application of critical thinking and learning myself.
I was always seen as somewhat of a heretic by many - and yet - spot on by most. Because I took the biblical text to it's logical end and had no issue with worship to a seemingly arbitrary god. I was in love with Jesus Christ and cherished my dynamic, passionate relationship with the God of Abraham.
I have experienced the hurts of church and theists like many others, but never once did that cause me to be angered by religion - people are people. I believed that Davids just still existed. My greatest hero was John The Baptist. It is my belief that personalities exist both within and outside of theism. Some people are meant to prepare the way for others by taking a knife to the roots and clearing a foundation. I believed that the reason Jesus' ministry was so powerful was in large part due to John's abrasive nature. Sugar in the raw will take the edge of pure grain sugar. (so to speak). And I'd say the story of Tamar is a good example of how I operated and operate.
The critical study of theism was something that led to both my knowledge of the text and subsequent denial of the mystic. It was a long process. That filled me with much grief. But included new evidences that trumped my previous academic based faith in a god.
You don't know grief until you are forced to come to terms with knowing that the greatest love and priority in your life was a fantasy in your own mind. It is a wrestling match that brought me to my knees often. But I would not trade the knowledge of the human brain for the delusion I now know was mystic belief.
Most every single person in my life is a theist. Many friends and family members are gone due to the difference that now exist. That's okay and understandable to me. Communities thrive on common ideas and beliefs.
I am not hostile towards the institution of religion or theism. I appreciate the hold of the indoctrination and in no way would pretend the theist is stupid for believing as they do. The idea of militant atheism troubles me because I believe it doesn't leave room for the truth that the human brain gets wired and rewired and therefore, it isn't necessarily the fault of the theist that they are captive to that belief system.
I do however have a strong issue with any theist that doesn't even know their own text. That has been true even in my days as one. So any hostility has less to do with us/them and more to do with the individual and my frustration that a person would hold fast to something they themselves haven't studied. (that's true in any topic).
I have been told I am just "hurt" or "mad at god". I have been called "bitter" "jaded" "lost" and many long time friends and family members want me to return to the "woman they used to know". I find that insulting on a thousand levels. Mostly because authentic relationship shouldn't require a person to conform to standards or beliefs.
But again, I understand the motive of the theist. I regret very much that I was a party to the teachings many of the children I taught now believe. But at the same time, there are mores and norms that were core of what I taught that I feel will eventually prove solid. (all the girls I mentored are still married and thriving. they have strong self esteem and i am proud of much of their progress, theism aside).
All that to say, my position on Christianity is one of cherished memories. The church can do amazingly wonderful things for humanity. But I'd rather every person I know were not trapped in the belief that a god rules humanity. Perhaps that is selfish, but so be it.
Any more questions?
"And I will always be a Browns fan"
elizabeth, from a Bills fan, you have my sympathy.
It is something we just are. It won't ever leave. Even when we didn't have a team, we were Browns fans.
Someone mentioned when the Cavs were playing the Celtics: If the Cavs had made it to the championship, would it somehow ruin the experience of being a Cleveland fan.
Maybe we are masochists after all.
I'm moving to Chicago in a little over a month. Anything I absolutely have to do/experience? Anywhere I should avoid like a hole in the head?
Well, I'd venture to say you have to buy me a drink and spend some time sharing a cigar with me. If for no other reason than I love martinis and cigars.
Stay clear of the touristy trendy stuff like Taste of Chicago. It is really not worth it but for the corn (which you can get at Blues Fest). There is no way you get the accurate representation of the chefs anyway when they are reduced to a vending tent.
You must go to the Green Mill on a Friday or Saturday night for open jam sessions. You must hit the beaches and see how great lake Michigan is. You must hit up Legends. And you really should have some walking shoes. Chicago is super flat, and summer here is grand. You will find yourself walking for miles before you know it.
You better own a warm down coat, hat, scarves, and gloves to tolerate the winter here. (By the way, while Chicago is windy, it is not the windy city because of that - windy city comes from the political filibusters) All that to say, it gets COLD and due to the buildings and that lake, the wind is like knives on the face in January.
Chicago is a grid. Just know that Sears (Wilson) is South, Hancock is North and Trump is middle and you can find your way easy. (Lake is East obviously). Stay off the green line heading south if you can.
You have to go to a Cubs game and eat a hot dog with an Old Style. But keep in mind Wrigley is young and touristy.
You really don't *need* a car. It's expensive to own one here and you'll likely never use it. But if you must, just find a great place with a good rate included where you live. You'll find it is parked more often than not.
Will you be in the city or a burb? Where abouts?
I'ma go to University of Chicago for my masters.
"I'ma go to University of Chicago for my masters."
... not in English I hope ... ;-)
I knew somehow,knew that you elizabethdamaro had to be from Cleveland....I am as well and will always be a Browns fan( could care less about the other teams...though I'd love any championship)..where in Cleveland you from if I might ask?Posted 2 years ago #
You must log in to post.