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What do you owe?

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Started 2 years ago by Ty
Latest reply from wmdkitty

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Ty
Moderator

I was reading an article recently about changing attitudes on child rearing. An interesting factoid was quoted at one point, that most people say the greatest pressure to have kids still comes from potential grandparents. One person went so far as to say that they felt that their parents investment in raising them meant they owed them grandchildren as a pay off.

This recalled to mind a friend of mine who once told me that they get frustrated with nice people who chose not to have kids. He said, "If you can raise nice, well socialized children, don't you sort of owe it to the world to do that?"

Now, I disagree, and I've chosen not to have children. But procreation is pretty basic to any biological system. It got me thinking, what is the most basic thing we, as humans, owe to the world?

Simply, do humans owe anything to the world, and at minimum, what is that thing?

Posted 2 years ago #
vorjack
Moderator

Peter Singer had an article suggesting that we owe it to out children not to have them.

Should This Be the Last Generation?

I get a little dicey about the argument that we owe it to the world. "The World" is too abstract a concept for me to feel that I owe it something.

Plus, there seem to be so many people who want to have kids, it seems absurd to suggest that somehow my contribution is going to be important.

Posted 2 years ago #
Ty
Moderator

I think the extinction by choice folks are nuts.

But substitute 'humanity' for world. What is the most basic obligation you take on by being a human?

I'm seriously curious. Is it not to harm other humans? That seems very passive. Is there an active obligation? Something a person should be doing, at minimum?

Posted 2 years ago #
Custador
Moderator

I went bankrupt in 2008 and have avoided debt ever since.

Posted 2 years ago #
Custador
Moderator

And now I read your post past the title... I have no children but three God sons (yeah, yeah, I know).

Posted 2 years ago #
UrsaMinor
Member

I don't think that humans "owe" the world anything, but as a practical matter, if our ethics include a concern for the welfare of future generations, we should be protecting the biosphere instead of actively dismantling it.

I suppose that idea just falls under the Golden Rule, extended to those who have not yet been born.

Posted 2 years ago #
DDM
Member

I'm only about $2k in the hole(From a $750 limit credit card - LOL).

But on topic, the last thing I want is children. I hate children. So. Fucking. Much. I don't owe my parents anything. I'm grateful they had me, but I'll be doing my part to keep the population down.

What I think humanity owes the world is an apology for fucking it up so much. And after that, prompt action to fix it. Call my cynical, but when a doomsday event actually happens and wipes humans out, I'll be happy knowing we can't fuck it up any more than we have.

Posted 2 years ago #
swmr1
Member

@DDM: I never understand the "I hate children" sentiment. You realize you were once a child, right? ;)

I get it that some children are misbehaved and that not everyone wants to have kids (those that blithely have kids without considering the amount of effort required to raise them well should think again). But kids are just undeveloped people--a ton of work, sure--but chock-full of potential. I am a parent and a coach. While there are times kids drive me a little nuts, most of the time I am amazed at their capacity to learn and grow.

Most kids are great. The pushy/helicopter parents that some kids have? Not so much. They are the ones who are worthy of hate and derision ;)

Posted 2 years ago #
swmr1
Member

@Ty: Yours is a good question. In one sense, I'm tempted to say, "But if you don't have kids and my fundie neighbor has eight, how is reason ever going to rule society?" But, really, that's not practical for you or for the kids you could have if you didn't want them.

I'm not sure we owe the world anything. I am more motivated to think that I owe my kids' generation something. And, since I had great parents who sacrificed for me, I feel I owe my kids that kind of sacrifice (for my parents' sake as much as anything). I want to pass the love and support I received on to my kids. I don't know what it would be like to have had crappy parents and to not have good things to pass on... I'm sure it would suck.

Posted 2 years ago #
JonJon
Member

Ethical theory (a branch of literary theory rather than an actual ethical theory) begins from the premise that humanity is defined by its ethical obligation. In other words, there isn't a bare minimum; you're humanity goes exactly as far as your obligation. On the other hand, this obligation can be ignored. This might be where guilt comes from or something, but the idea is that each person exists *for* the world around them, and not for themselves.

(I don't know how I feel about this idea overall. I tend to think, though, that you do owe the factors that produce you to some extent: I think that you owe something to the social community that shaped your personality and cultivated your helpless infant self, and I think you likely owe something to the larger forces that enabled your existence. I'd argue that both God and the natural environment count as those.)

I'm tempted to answer that the bare minimum we owe the world around us, from people to pine cones, is morality. I don't know that it even really matters which morality: even Nazism might work, since we're talking about bare minimums. I think we owe the world and each other some kind of moral awareness.

Posted 2 years ago #
DDM
Member

@swmr: Kids are annoying little brats I want nothing to do with. There's really not much more to it.

Posted 2 years ago #
Ty
Moderator

"I never understand the "I hate children" sentiment. You realize you were once a child, right?"

In my case, I don't dislike kids in general, I dislike who I am *around* kids. Kids make me tense and uncomfortable. Especially babies. I'd rather be alone in a room with an angry pitbull than a baby. Now, there are some specific kids that I dislike a great deal. I recognize that is almost always their parents fault, but it doesn't change the fact that I find the kid intolerable.

"I think we owe the world and each other some kind of moral awareness. "

I had assumed this would be the general answer, because it was the first one I thought of. I admit I find it unsatisfying, because it is very nebulous.

Posted 2 years ago #
swmr1
Member

@DDM: OK, just as long as you know you once were one! I find your perspective sad, but I'm sure you have your reasons. To completely dismiss a group of people solely due to their age and level of development seems backwards to me. Unlike some other groups, at least kids have a reason for their immaturity!

Posted 2 years ago #
Ty
Moderator

"To completely dismiss a group of people solely due to their age and level of development seems backwards to me."

People dislike who they dislike. Age and maturity level seems as valid a reason to dislike a group of people as any of the other reasons.

Posted 2 years ago #
swmr1
Member

@Ty: That's interesting. I am not a "kid-person" in the sense that I just have to hold babies or be around other people's children all the time. Really, I like kids a lot in a coaching atmosphere or my own kids but I've never hovered over other people's children. I disliked babysitting for the most part.

I sometimes find myself in situations where, as a female, I feel like there is pressure from those around to either hold someone's baby or play with someone else's child and I choose not to do so without any guilt. Not all of us want to obsess over other people's kids. Many of us get that. I never expect anyone else to go ga-ga over my kids. Is it this expectation that makes you so uncomfortable around kids? Can't be what they think of you since babies can't even think anything about you in the first place :)

Posted 2 years ago #
swmr1
Member

"People dislike who they dislike. Age and maturity level seems as valid a reason to dislike a group of people as any of the other reasons."

Would you say that about sexual orientation or race? Seems like one shouldn't really make up their mind to like or dislike a person based on gross generalizations. Not that you don't have a perfect right to do so. Just seems kinda' sad and closed-minded.

Posted 2 years ago #
Kodie
Member

Children are ... may I generalize? They are sticky and loud. I don't mind children on a one-on-one basis if they are not sticky or loud or if I feel like being sticky and loud with them. I live with my windows adjacent to a daycare center and I do not like the screams of little children, nor the people hired to yell at them or sing to them. All this while I tend to be loud and sticky myself when I want to be. If I were to generalize again, I think I don't like people all that much. I certainly don't owe the world to breed my own brilliant and well-mannered children just to have my own spawn have to put up with the ill-mannered, sticky, and loud. I mean do I owe my children this world? That's a slap in the face.

The concept of owing the world children is egotistical, anthropocentric nonsense. If I do have children, it will be for my own perfectly selfish reasons, which is really the only reason anyone should have children. As an atheist, I have only started to learn about the concept of humanism, and I do not feel that I am a humanist; I think I dislike people too much for that. I believe in futility. We're just animals. Do what you gotta do. Try to be pleasant to be around while you're here.

Posted 2 years ago #
Ty
Moderator

Nope, not expectation at all. I don't feel any pressure to do anything most of the time, much less dote on someone else's kid.

Children just make me tense. I do not enjoy their company. And babies are the worst. Even the idea of an utterly helpless being that is incapable of communicating makes me grit my teeth.

Now, these are generalizations. My writing partner has a four year old girl that I don't mind being around. She's pretty well behaved and her language skills are good. If she needs something, she is far more likely to just ask for it than to start screaming.

But even then, after an hour or so of her being around, I can feel myself tensing up.

Posted 2 years ago #
Ty
Moderator

"Would you say that about sexual orientation or race? Seems like one shouldn't really make up their mind to like or dislike a person based on gross generalizations. Not that you don't have a perfect right to do so. Just seems kinda' sad and closed-minded. "

Generalizations are always wrong.

But the fact remains that for whatever reason, we all have them. Some people do dislike the company of men or women. I find it almost impossible to be good friends with anyone who loves country music.

Since they are all irrational, picking one out as especially wrong seems silly.

Posted 2 years ago #
Ty
Moderator

"If I do have children, it will be for my own perfectly selfish reasons, which is really the only reason anyone should have children."

My friend with the four year old says that the only good reason to have kids is out of self indulgence.

Posted 2 years ago #
swmr1
Member

"I find it almost impossible to be good friends with anyone who loves country music." LOL. As long as I don't have to listen to it with them, I'm OK with a country-music loving friend. I live in Texas now so I'd be in trouble if I let that get to me too much...

"Since they are all irrational, picking one out as especially wrong seems silly."

Never meant to insinuate that disliking children is "especially" wrong. Just the same as disliking any group of people as a group. Guess I see kids as maybe a little less at fault for their faults than some adults.

I get the baby thing to some extent. The baby stage for all my kids was sweet in some ways but it could be INCREDIBLY frustrating. I've enjoyed my kids so much more as they've gotten older and are becoming people. It's a fascinating process.

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only mom on this message board ???

Posted 2 years ago #
UrsaMinor
Member

I've always been ambivalent about the idea of having kids. But at this point in my life (being a 50-year-old gay man), it's pretty much a purely intellectual question, since it ain't gonna happen.

If you take the sociobiological point of view, my brother has already very kindly contributed some of my genes to the next generation. His two kids are equivalent to having one child of my own. So, I am represented in the next generation although I haven't personally reproduced.

There is no "reason" to have children beyond the biological imperative to propagate your genes, and all the cultural baggage and rationalization that we wrap around this basic fact is just that. And maybe "imperative" is a bad word- the tendency to reproduce is selected for very strongly and very mechanically, via the tautology that organisms that reproduce frequently leave more descendants than those who do not. If the reason for that reproductive behavior is inheritable, it's self-reinforcing. No philosophy needed.

Posted 2 years ago #
Kodie
Member

Never meant to insinuate that disliking children is "especially" wrong. Just the same as disliking any group of people as a group. Guess I see kids as maybe a little less at fault for their faults than some adults.

That's just it. Kids are people who don't know how to be people yet. Considering neither do many adults, I don't know where that puts them on the scale. They can't help being unpleasant and then they get a pass because they're not taught yet. I don't hate kids at all. I do like them, except when they are other people's and getting away with acting like little assholes either because it's their nature or because (like, at the daycare center beside my apartment) it's outside time. I don't know those kids, so they irritate the hell out of me. And at the store, screaming and/or running with no supervision. And at restaurants when they stare over the booth at me while I'm eating, or worse, walk over and stand next to the table.

I used to work with children. I worked at a day camp when I was 19 with 10-12 year olds and they were amazing. I worked in a daycare center when I graduated from college, with infants as young as 8 weeks old, toddlers and pre-school kids, and I liked most of those kids in the context that I knew them and felt like I was a good influence in their days. My niece and nephews are great also, but they live on the other side of the country, so it's difficult in my estranged family to get very excited about them -- it's weird how I do not instantly adore them just because they are related, and it's hard to be a presence in their lives.

I had plans to have children but it is getting late in my life for that unless I adopt. I don't hate children, and I imagine parenting to be a mix of cruel punishment and a hopefully somewhat fulfilling way to spend life. I just hate sticky, loud, other people's children as a generalized class of people, especially since most parents will say their child is the exception, or give a pass on their lack of maturity simply as the natural result of not having had enough experience being people yet. I can accept that but I don't have to like being around them!

Posted 2 years ago #
Ty
Moderator

"I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only mom on this message board ??? "

Keep in mind, too, that the act of having a child has chemically reprogrammed your brain in some pretty profound ways. No one who hasn't had one will have a similar perspective.

Posted 2 years ago #
swmr1
Member

"Keep in mind, too, that the act of having a child has chemically reprogrammed your brain in some pretty profound ways. No one who hasn't had one will have a similar perspective."

I'm sure that's true. I'm going to assume you aren't trying to tell me my rational mind has been clouded with parenting hormones ;) I will say that the sometimes outrageous demands of parenting are outweighed for me by the awe of watching little ones turn into independent people. It's absolutely trite, but parenting has been by far the single hardest thing I've ever done and the single most rewarding.

I do think one selfish plus to having kids that hasn't been mentioned is the benefit of family. For those of us that like to belong to an extended family unit, it's nice to think that you'll have family around as you age. I guess, if I feel like I "owe" anything it is to that group of people.

Posted 2 years ago #
Siberia
Member

Personally, I don't think I 'owe' the world anything. We're here just as every other species is here, to survive, nothing more, nothing less.

On the subject of kids, don't care about them, don't want them, am stone-cold about them. I find them fascinating on a theoretical level (that is: as far away from me as possible). I have no interest in playing with, educating or being around children. I've no interest in reproducing and passing along my genes. I don't hate them, I just don't care about them. Which is ironic since I'm a horse lover and more comfortable with and interested in horses than babies and children. I've always wanted to have horses, but never wanted to have children. My sister has recently birthed a baby girl (five months now), but I'm just not interested.

If, however, I sometime change my mind and want children, I'll probably adopt.

Posted 2 years ago #
Stupid Idea
Member

@swmr1 I don't post very often, but I lurk around here. I'm also a mom, an atheist, live in Texas and hate country music. Just so you don't feel so alone. ;)

On to the original question. I don't feel I owe it to the world to have kids. I've pretty much always known I wanted one kid. I got her. I don't want anymore. A lot of people act like you're practically abusing your kid if you don't give them a sibling. To me that is not a good enough reason to have another kid, especially if you don't want one. Even though I love being a parent, I get where the people that don't like kids are coming from for the most part. I don't like a lot of kids. I never babysat and even now that I'm a parent, I still get very uncomfortable when left alone with someone else's kid. But my kid is freaking awesome! (I don't expect everyone to feel that way, just speaking for myself.)

I feel like I owe it to the world to do everything in my power to make sure my kid grows into an empathetic, intellegent, critically thinking person. And I try to be those things myself.

Posted 2 years ago #
swmr1
Member

Hey, Stupid Idea! I'm feeling much less alone now. I'd been wondering if atheist moms who actually like kids were a rare breed ;)

I wouldn't have any more kids than you want to have--for any reason. I have more than one, but some of that is because I had a sibling and had/have a good relationship with my sibling. It was hard for me to think of doing things any other way.

I get the not liking "to be around" kids thing. They can be sticky and loud and they are in the process of learning how to be well-behaved people for a few years. We were all there once. I don't know any adult that wasn't, at one stage, sticky and loud and un-civilized. I guess I'm glad the adults around them at the time found the patience to tolerate them and help them become autonomous adults. I don't get the "all kids are brats" thing. Don't think I ever will.

Posted 2 years ago #
Lessica
Member

Well, it's kind of a moot point for so far, but I still do a lot of thinking as to whether or not it would be a good idea for me to have kids.
On the one hand, I like to think I have some good, worthwhile features. In some aspects, maybe even better than average. With that in mind, I feel like I should make a contribution to society. I mean, I seem to do a lot more thinking than a lot of the people currently contributing to the gene pool, so that ought to count for something - right?
On the other hand, the not-so-great ones might cause my (potential) children to be unhappy, which doesn't seem fair to them. Just because I'm able to deal with my failings doesn't mean that my children would have the same mindset.
On the mutant third hand, I'm pretty sure that for my children to have a positive environmental impact on the world, they'd have to be many times better than I am, and the chances of that happening are pretty low.
On the fourth hand, I am about to fall over because of too many limbs. Also, I think I would be a pretty bad parent because I'm not particularly fond of children. Yes, that is hypocritical given my age. No, I'm not taking it back, because it's still true.

I think the conclusion to be drawn here is that if over-thinking things is bad, then I should definitely never procreate.

Posted 2 years ago #
claidheamh mor
Member

I don't like children, either. The useless assertion that I or anyone once was one is breathtakingly irrelevant.

Phrased differently: Who gives a fuck that we were?

Rephrased: So what?

Re-worded: What's yer beef? People who once were one are what? Supposed to throw some pups or squeeze one out?

Posted 2 years ago #