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Indoctrination, Evangelism, and Free Will

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Started 2 years ago by Kodie
Latest reply from Ty

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Kodie
Member

1. If free will is a gift from god, how come parents of faith don't have enough faith in it?

As far as indoctrination, I can see where it comes from... to a point. If you believe something is important to know, you want to teach your children. You want them to know the alphabet, their colors and shapes, how to count to 20+, how to dress themselves, how to use the toilet, how to eat with a fork, simple manners, and all that stuff about god is true and important to them as all of that other stuff, so it would naturally fit into the regular development of a child as he or she grows, from that perspective. Since many of you grew up in such a household and look back at the harm of it, it seems simple enough to let a child learn about it and decide for themselves. I think if one believes it to be true, it is hard to convince them that it's a philosophy their child may not share if they learned outside of that framework, which I don't understand why they don't expose their children (I can't bunch all Christians in with this tendency, but you know what I mean) to the rest of the world. Is the intention to get them so full of god to prepare them to battle the rest of reality when they're older, or is it to shield them from reality because it might be appealing to them, and they're too young to sort it out? Or both? Or is that two ways of saying the same thing?

What I don't really understand - how parents of faith regard things like the free will. I wasn't brought up in it, and I honestly have never had a face-to-face discussion where I felt someone directly trying to give me the good news. I have seen assertions and rebuttals on it here and some other online sites. Very few people know I'm an atheist in my real life, and I don't know what they are either. Most people here grew up in it and/or live or have lived in places with more explicit expectations of faith, and some demand for you to explain yourself if you do not have any.

What I have seen here and other places online are parents fretful their child may be doubting or atheistic, practically forbidding it. This is where I don't understand "free will," what I do get is that it implies there is a heaven, but you have free will to choose against it (and go to hell), which the argument goes, isn't really free will. When I think of free will, I guess it is in some other sense, that I have the option to believe in god or not, for starters. But not only does god give you free will, parents tend not to accept that you are using it. Family members will shun and avoid you in many cases if you act on the free will they believe in. Is free will the freedom to do immoral things, which gets you to hell, or is free will the freedom to deny there's a god? Is free will to sin, or is free will actually a sin? I don't really get how this is laid out or why parents take authority over the god they believe in in this matter, literally forbidding their children from using their god-given option. I am talking about children old enough to think this through maturely or a grown adult. Why can't they go to hell if they want to?

If anyone ever gets me to discuss this in person to the point where they ask me if I want to be saved, I'm going to say, "no, not really," instead of telling them I don't believe in it and why. I don't know, they think we are satanists already. Why the fuck do I have so many questions?

Posted 2 years ago #
Wafik
Member

Kodie wrote: "Why the fuck do I have so many questions?"

Probably because religion is a giant, convoluted mess that makes no sense to anyone who tries to approach it with logic as you just have. I would much rather have a ton of questions then none at all.

In defense of Christian parents (never thought I would find myself typing that), I do not think we can blame them for wanting their children to be Christian. If I truly believed that there was this all powerful, super good god that I will get to spend eternity with, then I would also naturally want my children to have the same relationship I do with this entity. If nothing else, then both myself and my children would be able to spend all of eternity in heaven together and I won't have to worry about the same children spending all of eternity in hell. The logic is there, as flawed as it is.

The free will argument is more difficult. The questions you raise about it and other issues I have with the religious idea of why we have "free will" is one of the main reasons why I am now an atheist. I assume most Christians don't bother to try and process this argument you have just laid out. However, for the ones who do, my earlier argument would still apply for the parents. Sure, you, as my child, have the free will to do whatever the hell you want. That said, I still want you to believe in this awesome thing I do and spend eternity in heaven with me instead of hell. What sane (ironic, I know) Christian would not want this for their child?

As for your own personal struggles with religion, it is a damn shame that you are stuck with such religious people around you. If they are people who would turn on you because they found out you're not religious, or whatever state of belief you may be in, then who the hell needs them? If they are family, then it is all the worse, but hopefully if that is the case, my early argument helps you to understand their stance.

I don't know where you live Kodie, but if you ever get so sick of the religious craziness around you, come hang out in Ontario. I'm lucky in that all of my friends have never judged me on my religion. Come hang out with us and I'll hook you up with some delicious Canadian beer and then we can have truly great theological discussions.

Posted 2 years ago #
Kodie
Member

I meant that most people at this site, that I know of. I live in Boston now, and previously have lived my life in 3 suburban corners of NY State where I did never feel like there was religious craziness. People keep to themselves about it overall, as have my parents. I know you are new here, but I was brief over that point because I've elaborated my background, oh so many times before to catch people up. My experience, I think, is different from most of the people who post here, people who were indoctrinated and/or regularly encounter preachy people. I have the opposite of that, even though I realize the majority have some belief in god, and usually the Christian version, it's not something anyone ever brings up or questions of me or proselytizes me. I.e., most people I know in meatspace may as well have no religion either, they are secular-behaving.

I appreciate your reply about free will. I know what you mean from a logical angle, parents would want for their children to do things like get good grades, stay away from drugs, etc., make the right choices like believing in god. Spend so much time teaching them to choose the right things, and what they do, stab you in the back or something. If "free will" wasn't their standard answer for everything, I could understand it a little better, but without that explanation, they have no explanation. So it is, to outrank god by enforcing the belief in god in their children through coercion, guilt, punishment, isolation, threats, as if their book doesn't say anything about it. That doesn't make any fucking sense to me. It's up to the individual as per god, or it isn't.

Posted 2 years ago #
Wafik
Member

My apologies, I must have misread your original post. Your experience definitely sounds a lot more similar to my own.

They way you interpret free will I would certainly have to agree with you that it makes no sense what so ever. I would argue it is irony of the highest degree. God gave humans free will because he loved them so much and knew the only way that humans could truly love him is if they freely choose to love him, and so Christian parents then deny free will to their children by forcing their religion on them because they love them. Makes a lot of sense to me!

Let me now step back and we can hope someone who actually believes in this idea can stop by and attempt to rationalize it for us.

Posted 2 years ago #
Kodie
Member

Let me now step back and we can hope someone who actually believes in this idea can stop by and attempt to rationalize it for us.

I would settle for someone who used to really believe this. Whenever I ask questions, it's not just for theists, but even for deconverts who seriously believed it at one time to explain how it works in the head. I don't know, settle, more like prefer. I think people deconvert over problems like this one because they can't explain it, but they also used to agree with it, and can put it in terms that I don't have to argue with, like I would someone who still believes it. It is obvious hypocrisy from this side, but I have little idea how the religious mind works without noticing their own hypocrisy.

I guess what I'm saying is, since I haven't been brought up in a faith, and more or less became an atheist at first by default, the more I look into it, the more I can't believe anyone believes it in the first place. I come from a non-belief side to try to understand what's so compelling about this that anyone does believe it. When I see Christians pile up the excuses why god is the way he is, why things are the way they are because of god, I just can't wrap my head around they believe what they're saying. I'm not an atheist scholar of philosophies or reading the popular books that are out there. It's just what I reason out for myself. I look at what they think, and I wonder, how can you listen to yourself and believe that it makes any sense at all? A former theist might be able to shed some light on that without trying to get me to agree with them.

Anyway, nice to meet you!

Posted 2 years ago #
Eudaimonist
Member

If your child went to Scientology meetings would you simply smile and nod when they told you about it?

Posted 2 years ago #
Elemenope
Moderator

If your child went to Scientology meetings would you simply smile and nod when they told you about it?

Exactly. It's *perfectly understandable* why Christian parents endeavor to bring up their kids in a way that increases the chances they will be Christian. Moreover, pretty much everyone is well aware that while, under the Christian rubric, free will is a great gift, that most people use it to make pretty bad life decisions. From that perspective I'd say that Christians think that free will is not sufficient for good outcomes, and that sheltering and indoctrinating their kids (who are in the sensitive state of having will but not much knowledge that would lead to a good use of that will) is an important stop-gap while they are all vulnerable and stuff.

Doesn't make it right, by any means, but makes it understandable. The real problem there is reconciling the idea that you should have faith in God who putatively has a plan that is in some cosmic (and one hopes, some personal, individual) way a good plan, with the excessive danger of the world and the necessity of such ideological precautions. If your kid falls into scientology or atheism or new-age woo or starts listening to that devil rock music, there should be a tension in the reaction to the news between "oh no, my child is lost!" and "maybe God has a plan why this is so", but there is no such tension evident except in the rarest cases. When *other* bad things happen, this is the primary coping mechanism from the ideology that kicks in to resolve cognitive dissonance, so why this exception?

Posted 2 years ago #
Paul
Member

No, I would not simply smile and nod. Although they have the right to go into scientology if they chose to, I still have the right as a parent, maybe even as simply the individual they are talking to, to present my opinions on the matter. I certainly wouldn't try to force them into my stance, but I would lay bare my understanding, and hope that, what I perceive as the correct choice, is in fact the correct conclusion to be had from the data. At that point it would be a discussion or a debate.

Posted 2 years ago #
Wafik
Member

You are right that it would likely be better coming from the deconverted. I, myself, count myself among those numbers, but I can never say with a straight face that I believed in the Christian definition of free will.

Honestly, I think most Christians just are willing to live in blissful ignorance. They don't worry about reconciling questions because they don't have to. Many have just grown up in the church and have always been surrounded by like minded people, never being questioned on their beliefs. That is why when you finally do question them, they are so poorly prepared to answer them. Those people then do question their beliefs and try to rationalize what they have been told their whole life by those they trust the most, only to find it doesn't make sense and leave the church like myself. The most interesting people are those who question religious teachings and remain religious. Those are the most confusing to both you and I.

And a please to meet you as well.

NewStoic, Scientology is much more of a cult then Christianity. I would feel that I failed as a parent to teach my children to critically think if they ended up Christians. I would hire someone to unbrainwash them if they ended up in Scientology.

Posted 2 years ago #
Ty
Moderator

At the very least, I would hope that no atheist would shun their child for making a different choice. The concept of shunning those who make different religious choices is built right into the belief system of many major religions. There is no such tradition within disbelief, at least that I'm aware of.

Posted 2 years ago #
Eudaimonist
Member

"NewStoic, Scientology is much more of a cult then Christianity. I would feel that I failed as a parent to teach my children to critically think if they ended up Christians. I would hire someone to unbrainwash them if they ended up in Scientology."

Of course, but my point was that if my child started dabbling in beliefs which I found dangerous or harmful (as I do most religions), it would be my right, and IMO duty, to steer them clear of those beliefs. Christians are doing the same thing, but they are simply starting from the wrong vantage point.

"The concept of shunning those who make different religious choices is built right into the belief system of many major religions. There is no such tradition within disbelief, at least that I'm aware of."

It would be very hard not to shun my child if they became a Mormon, Muslim, or Scientologist, etc... in the end I probably would not do so, but it would be very difficult.

Posted 2 years ago #
Elemenope
Moderator

It would be very hard not to shun my child if they became a Mormon, Muslim, or Scientologist, etc... in the end I probably would not do so, but it would be very difficult.

My fiancee has expressed similar feelings (she is also an atheist). I confess to not understanding it on an existential level (at least except the scientologist case), even if I can sort of understand the attitude on an intellectual level. Then again, she had to struggle with religious indoctrination her whole life, and me not so much. That might be the difference.

Posted 2 years ago #
Ty
Moderator

"It would be very hard not to shun my child if they became a Mormon, Muslim, or Scientologist, etc... in the end I probably would not do so, but it would be very difficult."

This inclination is, to me at least, exactly what we should be fighting against, not co-opting from fundamentalism. Not that I am accusing you of doing that, since you seem to indicate that you recognize the need to fight this inclination as well.

But I'm with Nope in just not getting the desire in the first place. Is it just religion? Would you have that same gut feeling if the kid got into healing crystals or homeopathy? What if they decided to follow a career path you find objectionable?

Posted 2 years ago #
Eudaimonist
Member

"Then again, she had to struggle with religious indoctrination her whole life, and me not so much. That might be the difference."

This is part of it, although I am not really angry at my mother for indoctrinating me (she thought it was her duty), and am grateful that she taught me from an early age that doubt is healthy. Most of it has to do with the effects of those beliefs on society at large.

"This inclination is, to me at least, exactly what we should be fighting against, not co-opting from fundamentalism."

The damage religion does to society both in terms of stopping progress and in spreading hatred is not something I feel I should simply be tolerant of, especially if my own child was the one professing belief.

"Is it just religion? Would you have that same gut feeling if the kid got into healing crystals or homeopathy? What if they decided to follow a career path you find objectionable?"

Healing crystals or homeopathy do not legislate against certain factions of society, they do not teach that science is promoting an atheistic agenda and they do not have a political agenda.

Posted 2 years ago #
Wafik
Member

"Of course, but my point was that if my child started dabbling in beliefs which I found dangerous or harmful (as I do most religions), it would be my right, and IMO duty, to steer them clear of those beliefs. Christians are doing the same thing, but they are simply starting from the wrong vantage point. "

I have no children, so I reserve the right to change this opinion in the future, but I would like to believe that I would let me children do and believe whatever they want. If my child comes to believe in a religion, then I will feel that I have failed as a parent. I know that it won't have been myself or the mother who fostered that belief, so if they were able to come to religious beliefs on their own through no family pressure then I can only assume I failed to properly prepare them for the world. Would I shun them? I certainly hope not and I would definitely vigoursly question their beliefs every time I see them.

Ty does bring up an interesting question though. I know that religion is just as bullshit as healing crystals, homeopathy, etc. Again, I would hope that I prepared my children not to get suckered into believing in those types of junk science. I honestly don't know if I would be ok with my child believing in psychics. I guess I would break it down into how much harm potential it has to my child and others. Going to a psychic or using healing crystals does no real harm except for emptying your pockets out a bit. I would have a bigger problem if they then used the psychic for big life decisions or used the healing crystals instead of getting proper medical help. I feel I would take the same approach to religion. If my child were to become religious I would have to learn to live with it, but if their religious beliefs started to effect them negatively (beyond the obvious delusion it already created in their mind), such as casuing them to pray to be cured of an illness instead of seeking medical help, then I believe I would have to draw a line.

Posted 2 years ago #
Elemenope
Moderator

Healing crystals or homeopathy do not legislate against certain factions of society, they do not teach that science is promoting an atheistic agenda and they do not have a political agenda.

Nor do many religious people, institutions, or sects. It is the loud minority that is bent on warping the wider society; most are comfortable to go along and get along. That is why I don't understand the attitude; if you kid grew up into a fire-breathing creationist atheist-hating misogynist who additionally politically supported the changes you speak of, that would be one thing, but that's a far cry from merely being a member of the much wider religious group.

Posted 2 years ago #
Eudaimonist
Member

"Nor do many religious people, institutions, or sects. It is the loud minority that is bent on warping the wider society; most are comfortable to go along and get along."

About one fifth of Americans believe in evolution. Nearly half are opposed to gay marriage. The religious right is loud, but many of the beliefs leak far into the moderates.

"If my child were to become religious I would have to learn to live with it, but if their religious beliefs started to effect them negatively "

Their beliefs effect them negatively from the get-go. Not only do they effect them negatively, but also those around them.

Posted 2 years ago #
Eudaimonist
Member

Oh, and less than half would vote for a known atheist politician.

Posted 2 years ago #
Elemenope
Moderator

About one fifth of Americans believe in evolution.

I have never seen it poll that low.

Nearly half are opposed to gay marriage.

This is a better example. Still, my point is that regardless of your (hypothetical) child's religious identity, he or she should be judged by whether he or she embraces these more destructive tendencies of religion or not. After all, given that I don't think the destruction of religion is a practical (or, dare I say, even laudable) goal within any of our lifetimes, is it not worth having more religious people be taught to respect gay people and believe in the fruits of empirical investigation? The only way that will ever happen is by those religions being reformed from within. The bare fact of being a Christian or Muslim is, to my mind, not anywhere close enough to what would be necessary to prejudge someone as destructive.

Oh, and less than half would vote for a known atheist politician.

Honestly I just think that's because we have bad PR. Most would be willing to vote for a Muslim for office, and then that number dropped drastically...around 2001. Individual politicians often get away with voicing openly agnostic/atheist thoughts, like Gary Johnson (or just simply stay mum about their religion, which is a very common tactic) and are still successful.

Posted 2 years ago #
Eudaimonist
Member

"I have never seen it poll that low."

I'm going off of Bill Maher's show, it might be something like one quarter. Regardless, we poll WELL below any other Western country. It's not just an arbitrary distinction.

"After all, given that I don't think the destruction of religion is a practical (or, dare I say, even laudable) goal within any of our lifetimes, is it not worth having more religious people be taught to respect gay people and believe in the fruits of empirical investigation?"

Of course it's worth it. Does that mean I want my child to be religious? Nope. Does it change the fact that religion promotes homosexual hatred, generally Xenophobia, and cherishes gut instincts rather than proof? Nope.

"Honestly I just think that's because we have bad PR."

Atheists are the most distrusted minority below Muslims and homosexuals, I heard that on NPR sometime last week.

Posted 2 years ago #
Elemenope
Moderator

As this chart shows, it often is just as important to measure all the composite effects that go into a voting decision. Many people in the upper south and rural mid-Atlantic said they'd never vote for a black guy for president, but then magically did so in 2008. I wouldn't argue, of course, that being an atheist isn't a net negative in a political contest in America, and that fact presents a very unfortunate fact about religious prejudice in the US, but the practical upshot is that it tends to matter very little; voters' awareness of the actual religious status of a candidate tends to be very low even when the candidate is public about it, and as the chart shows, they tend to care about a lot of other things a lot more.

Posted 2 years ago #
Wafik
Member

Its actually more around 15% (give or take a few points) of Americans believe evolution is definitely true, and considering that the number should be 100%, those numbers are pathetic.

"Their beliefs effect them negatively from the get-go. Not only do they effect them negatively, but also those around them."

I agree, and I will do my best to try and convince them otherwise through debate and discussion, but I certainly will not shun them or say they cannot believe that.

The problem with saying the religious moderates are ok is that they give legitimacy to the extremists, fundamentalists, whatever. They rarely condemn the actions of the hardcore while generally accepting negative principles such as anti-gay or anti-abortion (as far as letting any woman choose for herself). My father is about as moderate as you can get when it comes to being a man of strong religious belief, and he still gave up his marriage license because he thought he would be forced to marry a gay couple... and this is in Canada! When we give the moderate majority a free pass, the fundamentalist minority is empowered.

Posted 2 years ago #
Kodie
Member

Wafik:
If my child comes to believe in a religion, then I will feel that I have failed as a parent.

This might answer my original question. We all know that no matter what you believe about god doesn't really change how we behave as humans. I think everything about god is more of an attempt to excuse our humanity for being exactly as it is, so Christian parents tend to behave just like the rest of us in essential ways. I have to wonder additionally if they feel they have also failed god, if that is something in the bible or not. I'm not sure it's normal to send your child out, but I think cutting ties is one way to agree to disagree, or accept that the child is hell-bound to go on as if they were dead anyway, or at least keep "the hell away". Is that where that came from?

Even though I don't really know what my parents believe, I think they believe in god. My father said he believes in god but not organized religion, once, when I was in high school and asked him, and that's all he ever said. Looking upon his behavior, I cannot detect that this means he has a relationship with Jesus, but he never ever talks about it. My mother's father disowned his family and was an atheist, and this came up randomly and out of context. My mother was financially beholden to him to keep us out of church, a decision she later regretted. She thought we suffered socially, not really spiritually, and that discussion only came up once or twice. She also mentioned about 15+/- years ago that she found Jesus and taken him into her heart, and then never mentioned it to me again. For all I know, that's still true. All I ever heard growing up about religion from my parents was negative: "magic show" this, and "bible-thumper" that from both of my parents, "holy rollers," "born-agains," people to avoid, and avoid becoming. They never said be an atheist, they never introduced me to religion. They barely taught me the critical thinking you're talking about. I may have some retardation in that department, actually, never really putting a lot of pieces together until I was older. I'm not super-intellectual or well-read, but I can say objectively, I am much moreso than my parents. I have more comedic observations. The world is odd. People are odd. It's also not clear to me if anyone else in my family has religious beliefs or not (not sure how seriously my sister takes her horoscope), neither if they know I'm an atheist.

If I ever had a kid or two, I would want to begin with the critical thinking. I was talking to a friend of mine who is wicked smart, and explaining to him how babies are wired to learn language more easily than older children or adults. It is obvious they want to learn all about the world when they ask "why?" all the time, I think that is the time to catch it, side by side with counting and reading, etc. I think school is too rote, critical thinking is an afterthought if at all.

Anyway, I think it would be difficult to accept my child finding religion or alterna-woo if they wanted to get in my face about it, and that's really unacceptable. You do have to have boundaries, not necessarily shun them. That's the thing about having kids - you don't know who they're going to be, and who they turn out to be reflects your ability to guide them to adulthood - I definitely see this as failure-feeling on a Christian parent, because free will is supposed to be a no-brainer once you have all the "facts".

You see this up too close and like you can see all the mistakes you made, as if it were obvious to everyone. Maybe you aren't that great either. Why should they want to be like you? I am speaking in the abstract of people who are kind of terrible, and are disappointed that maybe their child is different than they are, and maybe society appreciates that they aren't terrible.

I wouldn't say my parents failed me as parents. I am more like them now that I'm older than I care to admit, but I am also different. My mother is a little ashamed of me, but that is a symptom of her parenting skills. She has always been a little too concerned about what people think of her, and her #1 priority in raising me was that I not embarrass her. I can't help it. She is just that way and there's not much I can do to not embarrass her. If she was hoping I would make her proud, she didn't do all the parenting things to ensure that I would, and out of spite, I don't want her to be proud. I know that's shitty of me, but to credit her with any success I may ever have would be wrong. The best thing I can do is not care so much what people think, and not be easily embarrassed. Does this mean she failed or I succeeded? Do ex-Christians feel this way about their devout parents?

Anyway, shunning is bad, but sometimes it needs to be done. I think it would take A LOT bad news of any kid of mine for me to not want them around, but I have no use for a criminal, if that's his chosen profession, someone if he were anyone other than my own that I just couldn't stomach, someone that only knew how to take advantage of me. I'd want a close enough relationship, without guilt on either party, that they also wouldn't want to disown me, always a possibility. My grandfather did it. I have a weird relationship with my own mother. I know she loves me, so the distance between us feels more on my end. I don't know if I feel unable to not embarrass her, so this is good for both of us, this is the way it has to be. I can't be specific to the type of embarrassment because it's non-specific. It's not like turning out an atheist from a good Christian home, or dressing like a ho, or getting too drunk at parties.

Posted 2 years ago #
Elemenope
Moderator

Every report I've read places US public support for evolution at about 50%. The 15% number comes from a narrowing question about whether God is involved with the process. Since the vast majority of Americans believe in God, obviously they think He'd have a hand in it. The discounting of this middle 35%, who accept the theory in every way except a pro forma adaptation about causation to their own religious opinion, is pretty intellectually naughty.

Wiki agrees.

Posted 2 years ago #
Jabster
Member

@Elem

Yep, there's nothing in the Theory of Evolution that rules out an involvement from god(s). The biggest negative for creator god(s) myths is that now there is an explanation how the multitude of life evolved on Earth, without requiring a god, and the fact that humans are not special.

Of course if god gave evolution a little nudge here and there or just set it going in the first place who would be to tell?

Posted 2 years ago #
Eudaimonist
Member

"Every report I've read places US public support for evolution at about 50%."

50% of Americans can't even select the correct definition for evolution given a set of multiple definitions. Most think microevolution and macroevolution are drastically different things, while some thinking that evolution simply means people adapt to their surroundings. In a society where evolution is an observable fact, 50% believing in what equates basically to their own definition of evolution is ridiculous. This isn't fringe lunacy, it's religious moderates who think Lee Strobel is a reliable source of journalistic integrity.

Posted 2 years ago #
Elemenope
Moderator

50% of Americans can't even select the correct definition for evolution given a set of multiple definitions.

Most people couldn't tell you how different medicines that they take work, and yet they still believe that the doctor isn't scamming them by prescribing them. Many people don't need to know how evolution works or really even what evolution is, they are happy to say merely that scientists think thus and they have assurance from their religious leaders it doesn't conflict (as, from the same cite earlier, just over 70% see no conflict). Heck, most Christians don't understand the nitty-gritty of their religious texts or even some rather large elements of their own religion; does this make them not Christians?

Your standard for when we can call someone saying they believe something an authentic believer is a little strange.

Posted 2 years ago #
Custador
Moderator

Most people don't realise how much of a scam medicines really are. SSRIs such as Prozac being a classic example - now that there is research funded by other than the companies that make them, it's well known that they're little better than placebos with nasty side-effects in most cases.

Posted 2 years ago #
Nox
Member

“Is free will the freedom to deny there's a god?”

In my observation the christian concept of free will has very little to do with what is suggested by the words “free” and “will”. It is a rationalization, a way to posit an omnipotent god and still blame people for anything that goes wrong with the universe.

The last thing the church wants is for you to actually have any real choices. If you had a choice you might choose to deny there’s a god. Or acknowledge a god and choose not to serve him. Or choose a different god. Or choose to split off and start your own competing church. Obviously actual freedom of the will would be very bad for business.

But if humans have no choice about anything then the whole concept of sin falls apart. Surely a just god would not condemn us for something he decided we would do. That would make no sense.

If you’re going to examine the christian (calvinist) interpretation of free will, you have to look at the concept of “original sin”. Since you had the good luck to not have this bullsh*t force fed to you as a child, I’m not sure how familiar you are with this idea. But the basic concept is that we are not only responsible for our own actions, but the actions of our ancestors, specifically one particular fictional ancestor in a garden. In christianity you are born a sinner, already guilty of the sin of Adam (eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in Genesis 3). Since the entire concept of christianity is based on Jesus dying for our sins, this was a way to address potential converts who argued that they had never sinned and did not need Jesus to be sacrificed for them. This is where free will comes in. Remember “free will” has nothing to do with “free” “will”. According to christian free will, you (yes you specifically, Kodie) decided that Adam would eat the fruit in a story that was written long before you were born.

Yeah, I know it sounds really convoluted and illogical, but I seriously am not making any of this sh*t up. Original sin is a central tenet of christian belief and is reliant upon a very specific interpretation of free will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will

On the topic of indoctrination, I would say it is almost always done with good intentions and bad results. If I believed that my child (hypothetical child, I don’t actually have any) would either spend eternity in paradise or eternity in suffering based on the result of one choice that they made in their life, I would certainly try to influence them in that direction. As such, I figure if I am someday in a position of raising children, I will teach them critical thinking skills (and I will make a side point of warning them of the presence of religious predators), and if their own application of that critical thinking leads them to make a choice that I disagree with, even joining a religion, I like to think I would be supportive and accept their decision.

@Jab

Agreed, natural selection does not rule out artificial selection, it merely makes it unnecessary.

Posted 2 years ago #
Elemenope
Moderator

There is some indication that SSRIs are overprescribed for mild and/or episodic depression, where they have minimal effectiveness. However, the latest JAMA meta-study (2010) reaffirms its efficacy in treating major, long-term depression, a conclusion that so far as I know has not been disputed by any study.

BTW, it's irresponsible of you to make statements of that nature; depression is not something to fuck around with, and real harm can result from a person with severe depression suddenly discontinuing their meds *even if they don't work for their clinical purpose*, since they modulate several serotonin signaling systems chronically, and so need to be ramped down in order to recover to natural state without damage.

Bad, naughty Custador! No cookie.

Posted 2 years ago #

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Indoctrination, Evangelism, and Free Will

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