![\"scot\"](\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/55\/2015\/01\/scot.jpg\")
<\/a><\/p>\nBEN: So what this really boils down to for you, is that: 1) you are convinced it is wrong to parse things so kingdom is one thing and church is entirely another (and I agree), and 2) you want kingdom mission to be church based and specifically Christian,and whatever is not an outworking of that is not kingdom mission. 3) you\u2019re insisting that kingdom is people, not just an activity or for that matter a place. I would say that kingdom involves people necessarily, its about the redemption of people obviously, but neither kingdom nor church is simply people. Church happens when two or more are gathered for worship and fellowship and service and God is present with us. An individual is not the church any more than an individual is the kingdom. In short it involves a certain kind of inter-relationship between God, and his people ,which involves God\u2019s activity amongst his people changing them and conforming them to the image of Christ. For example, if we were to ask whether when the youth group gathers to play basketball in the gym, church is happening, I would say no. The purpose of the gathering and the focus of the gathering was not worship, or fellowship, or service\u2013 it was not a gathering meant to focus on loving God and neighbor with whole heart. My point\u2014 not every gathering of 2 or more Christians is an example of \u2018church happening\u2019. <\/p>\n
SCOT: Well, most of that is your way of framing things, not mine.<\/p>\n
1. Kingdom is an OT and Jewish word for \u201cnation\u201d and \u201cpeople\u201d governed by a king \u2014 a kingdom is a people governed by a king. In a place. Under a law. Etc. My five elements.<\/p>\n
2. Most people seem to have a kingdom theory developed on the basis of creation theology and not election, people, nation \u2014 and not on the OT\u2019s usage of the term. Frankly, I think most have inherited a meaning from the history of the church and many from Kuyper somehow. I don\u2019t want to deny one bit anything about doing good in the world, but I don\u2019t htink that is what kingdom means in the Bible. It is the redeemed community and in the End it will be the people of God living in God\u2019s world the way God\u2019s people are supposed to live. <\/p>\n
3. Kingdom mission is entirely shaped by what kingdom means and I am 100% convinced most people think kingdom mission means doing good in the world for the good of the world. I\u2019m for it but that\u2019s the opposite of what kingdom means in the Bible. Seeking the welfare of the city Of course, but had anyone called that kingdom work\/mission good ol\u2019 Jeremiah would have pulled out his dirty cloth and slapped a good one. <\/p>\n
4. I don\u2019t say anything about youth groups playing hoops. <\/p>\n
BEN: I\u2019m really enjoying this conversation. I think you see more continuity between the way the term kingdom was used during the monarchy and about the monarchy in the OT and the NT usage. I would partially disagree, because the kingdom of God is not a mere continuation of a previous fallen kingdom of any sort, Israel\u2019s or otherwise. It\u2019s a new eschatological thing. <\/p>\n
But I had an aha moment on p. 115. What you are really concerned about when people say work for the common good is kingdom work\u2026. and you say NOOOOOO, that\u2019s just good works is precisely what you say near the bottom of the page. Your concern is that somehow people are trying to sacralize good works, or justice activities, and make them more significant than they are, and so make what they are doing seem more important. In other words, you\u2019ve placed a hard line between kingdom work and good works because of the misuse of the term kingdom and justice, and etc. I think this is a mistake. Any good work, which is good and pleasing in the eyes of God is obviously a manifestation of God\u2019s will on earth, even if it is partial and flawed. As such, it is an extension of God priorities, his commandments, his plans, and yes his reign on earth, and so yes truly good works are truly a manifestation of the kingdom come on earth. As you say so eloquently, Jesus is Lord of all, and not just of the church, and his power and love and presence are manifested not just in the church but also outside of it both directly and through Christians. Think for a moment about the parable of the sheep and the goats, a parable about the Kingdom (not just about good works). What does Jesus say? He says that inasmuch as we have failed to visit people in prison failed to feed and cloth people, we have failed to serve and do it to him. Now I find it very difficult to believe that the phrase \u2018unto the least of these\u2019 simply means unto fellow Christians. After all, there were not Christians yet, and the church doesn\u2019t get its start before Pentecost really. So\u2026.. I agree with you that specifically church work and good works both need to be done but I think they can and ought be seen as on a continuum under the heading of kingdom work\u2026..wherever the King is working, it is kingdom work as he is trying to save the world, not just the church.<\/p>\n
SCOT:Well, no, I haven\u2019t make the hard line because of how folks are using terms but because kingdom is a people in the Bible, and yes I have more continuity. Nor do I say a \u201cmere continuation\u201d nor would I but a revolutionary new thing\u2026 so I don\u2019t like that reframing brother.. I\u2019ll all for new and Christ and ecclesia etc.<\/p>\n
Any good work? Then you have to say Gandhi was doing good work; that a Soviet leader who is evil who creates something good is doing kingdom? No way. Kingdom \u2014 I keep saying this but it\u2019s the point I\u2019ve got to make every time this comes up \u2014 is a people not just the will of God. It is a people embodying the will of God, and without the people it\u2019s a \u201cmere ethic.\u201d<\/p>\n
The least of these my brothers (and sisters): not just folks in prison, though that his good work. The history of interpretation (Johannes Friedrich) shows the ecclesial\/missionary view (BB Warfield, eg) has been standard. Mother Teresa seems to have convinced everyone it means doing good for the marginalized of this world. That text refers back to Matt 10:40-42. <\/p>\n
We could go back and forth Ben but I think you see what I\u2019m doing. If someone doesn\u2019t buy in on my reading of kingdom in the OT and Josephus then it can mean what many think it means\u2026 whereever something good is done. If they buy into that kingdom-nation proposal, and it\u2019s 99% of the OT and Josephus, then I have good evidence.<\/p>\n
Calvin on Matt 4:17 (I think), says It used to mean nation and Israel but it can\u2019t meann that now so it must mean redemption. Classic example of draining continuity by gushing on discontinuity.<\/p>\n
BEN: O.K. I don\u2019t disagree with your wanting to make this Christ and church centered when it comes to Kingdom, I get that, but I wonder if you have ever looked at that parable in Mt. 25 in Aramaic. If I\u2019m reading it right, \u2018my brethren\u2019 is parenthetical\u2026. in other words it reads \u2018inasmuch as you (my brethren) have done it unto the least of these, you\u2019ve done it unto me. And this brings me to one other text and then I\u2019m hushing for today. Got to go teach Bible study tonight. <\/p>\n
You remember the story about the non-disciple exorcists who are doing their work in Jesus\u2019 name, and the disciples say \u2018should we forbid them\u2019? Jesus\u2019 answer is no. It\u2019s no because his work is going on both within and outside the circle of disciples, especially when it\u2019s done in his name. So yes\u2026\u2026 Gandhi was sometimes doing things in Jesus\u2019 name when he applied the Sermon on the Mount to oppressive situations in India and South Africa. Read E. Stanley Jone\u2019s book on Gandhi! It is what inspired Martin Luther King to take the non-violent approach to civil rights activism. You might correlate this with what Jesus says to the Samaritan woman in John 4\u2014 \u2018you Samaritans worship whom you do not know\u2019. Now notice, Jesus doesn\u2019t say they are worshipping a false god. He says they are worshipping the true God in ignorance. Worshipping the Biblical God in ignorance! I mention this because I think it is unwise to draw too narrow a circle around the church and call it Kingdom. It\u2019s not what Jesus would do, in my view. <\/p>\n
SCOT:Matt 25 is in Greek, not Aramaic.<\/p>\n
There is a singular and notable deficiency in all this: you are studiously avoiding what I do in my book. Construct kingdom\u2019s meaning on the basis of the OT and Josephus. In my view, you have to posit the word radically changed meaning to get where you are. That\u2019s the whole point of my book. <\/p>\n
I\u2019m all for Gandhi; he did not do kingdom work; only kingdom people can do kingdom work because kingdom is a people \u2014 Israel expanded by church. Gandhi\u2019s ethic was not rooted in God\u2019s grace in Jesus, that is, in the cross and resurrection, so he was not doing Jesus\u2019 sermon teachings. He was practicing non violence. I\u2019m not so sure about John 4. Worshiping ignorance might not be worshiping the true God at all; it\u2019s pointing in the right direction, like Acts 17, but kissing isn\u2019t marriage \u2014 if I can dabble in an analogy.<\/p>\n
BEN: Not if the Kingdom of God has to do primarily with theocracy, and not fallen substitutes. At no point is the monarchy of Israel called the kingdom of God.<\/p>\n
Isn\u2019t the point of studying Mt. 25 to understand exactly what Jesus meant, not what Matthew later meant? <\/p>\n
You\u2019re right, I think there are real problems with constructing what Jesus is doing on the basis of monarchy passages in the OT and on Josephus, who knows no teaching of Jesus. John the Baptizer warned us that what was coming was judgment on the fallen Israel and its Temple and etc. on its kingdom! Jesus did not come to reinstitute or continue all that. He just didn\u2019t. He was the fulfillment of the promises and the prophecy, but certain not in the way that was expected. He was the fulfillment of all the institutions of Judaism as well, including the Temple in himself, not in the lost sheep of Israel. And when something is fulfilled it is completed, and over and done with. That doesn\u2019t mean God is finished with Israel. There is of course an already and not yet dimension to this, but the church for sure is not Israel and never was. And Jesus is not merely the son of David, he\u2019s David\u2019s Lord, as he insisted to the debaters in Jerusalem.<\/p>\n
And this brings up another point\u2014 Jesus is no surrogate or under agent for God like King David, he is God the Son, and so is bringing the theocracy into play, not merely the kingdom of David.<\/p>\n
So maybe we do have more serious disagreements than I thought at first. But I\u2019ll keep reading and see what happens next. Its a great read. You write very clearly. <\/p>\n
SCOT:Ben I don\u2019t have my book here but I think Solomon\u2019s kingdom is called the kingdom of YHWH, no? I have it in the book anyway.<\/p>\n
Yes, of course, which is why I point to Matt 10:40-42; the history of that textual interpretation is one that affirms what I\u2019m saying, that\u2019s why I appeal to that.<\/p>\n
The point is that the term \u201ckingdom\u201d has saliency only if it makes sense in that world .. to say it means inbreaking means it has changed meaning. To say Kingdom has come is to play both on continuity turf and to say the Day has now arrived \u2026 what we\u2019ve expected has now come to pass. New and old at the same time. I hope we can agree on that.<\/p>\n
Fulfilled doesn\u2019t mean over and done with it; that can be an implication at times.<\/p>\n
The whole thing about Son of David \u2026 vs. Son of God\u2026 why? It\u2019s a both and for me: Son of God is royal in the OT. Not sure why you say surrogate. Not a word that is on my plate. \u201cNot merely the kingdom of David\u201d? I surely don\u2019t say that. He\u2019s building on that and taking it all to a new christocentric plane, shaped by life, death and resurrection and exaltation. My point about Kingdom of God is that Jesus is God\u2019s rule vs. monarchy, Ben, so not sure why you are saying that either.<\/p>\n
Gotta love biblical studies. No two scholars think alike!<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
BEN: So what this really boils down to for you, is that: 1) you are convinced it is wrong to parse things so kingdom is one thing and church is entirely another (and I agree), and 2) you want kingdom mission to be church based and specifically Christian,and whatever is not an outworking of that […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-11741","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"yoast_head":"\n