{"id":55758,"date":"2023-03-24T01:04:11","date_gmt":"2023-03-24T05:04:11","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/bibleandculture\/?p=55758"},"modified":"2023-02-13T09:07:32","modified_gmt":"2023-02-13T14:07:32","slug":"women-and-the-gender-of-god-dialogue-part-four","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/bibleandculture\/2023\/03\/24\/women-and-the-gender-of-god-dialogue-part-four\/","title":{"rendered":"Women and the Gender of God– Dialogue Part Four"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

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  1. So far as I can see there is no real discussion in your book of human fallenness or the ongoing effects of original sin on human nature, and this puzzled me not least since many of the early Christian interpreters thought that the virginal conception and the sanctifying of Mary\u2019s womb (not her immaculate conception) was so that Jesus could be like Adam before the Fall, without an inclination to sin or a sin nature. Was there a reason you didn\u2019t deal with that whole issue? I honestly think it\u2019s important not least because Paul presents Jesus as the eschatological Adam, the last founder of the human race, unfallen Adam gone right, and Luke traces Jesus\u2019 human origins back to Adam. Perhaps you will deal with this in your next book?\u00a0\u00a0 In any case I think this is a crucial issue because there are so many, even in the Christian community who are arguing \u2018God made me this way, so it must be good\u2019 when in fact human beings are born fallen creatures, indeed self-centered creatures (none more than an infant where it\u2019s all about feed me, hold me etc.) and people are born with flaws, including genetic flaws (e.g. sickle cell anemia).\u00a0 I don\u2019t think you can have a proper theology of redemption without dealing with both creation and fall?\u00a0\u00a0 How does this strike you?<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

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    1. Excellent points. Yes, much of that material (largely in conversation with Paul) was cut for the next volume. Although I wonder if I land in a slightly different place, in that I find the Christological arguments that the Son took on <\/em>fallen human flesh quite compelling. I have more work to do here. <\/em><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

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      1. Let\u2019s talk about the Incarnation for a minute in some detail. The earliest witnesses to the Gospel, namely Paul, and perhaps the Gospel of Mark basically say nothing directly about the centrality of the Incarnation as theological ground zero, unlike the later Councils at Nicaea and Chalcedon.\u00a0 Instead, the focus and most critical part of the story is the death and resurrection of Jesus, with Jesus\u2019 birth as a human being as the necessary preamble, but not the main event or focus.\u00a0 I tend to agree with this.\u00a0 Paul does not say, if Jesus wasn\u2019t virginally conceived in Mary\u2019s womb, then your faith is vain. He says if Christ is not raised (after dying on the cross), you are still in your sins.\u00a0 \u00a01 Peter also focuses on the suffering and death of Jesus as well, and the early preaching in Acts emphasizes this as well.\u00a0 It\u2019s the later development in John 1 and elsewhere that really brings the focus back to the Incarnation and its importance.\u00a0 What do you make of this? \u00a0One of the real problems with the focus on the Incarnation is that the early ecumenical councils never got around to really discussing and coming to good decisions about the nature of the atonement or even how we should view the Holy Spirit.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

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        1. I don\u2019t disagree that the kerygma focuses on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Incarnation would not have been enough. Since my motivating issue involved women\u2019s place in Christianity and God\u2019s gender, however, it was the doctrine of the Incarnation that offered the most for this line of inquiry. <\/em><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

          So far as I can see there is no real discussion in your book of human fallenness or the ongoing effects of original sin on human nature, and this puzzled me not least since many of the early Christian interpreters thought that the virginal conception and the sanctifying of Mary\u2019s womb (not her immaculate conception) […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[13296],"class_list":["post-55758","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-incarnation"],"yoast_head":"\nWomen and the Gender of God-- Dialogue Part Four<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"So far as I can see there is no real discussion in your book of human fallenness or the ongoing effects of original sin on human nature, and this puzzled\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, 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