George Washington Couldn’t Tell a Lie … But God Can

George Washington Couldn’t Tell a Lie … But God Can August 11, 2014

God liesNot that we need the confirmation, but the Bible makes clear that lying is bad. The ninth Commandment says so. Yahweh detests lying lips (Proverbs 12:22), and lying makes his top-seven list of things that he hates (Prov. 6:16–19).

And, not surprisingly, God doesn’t lie.

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind (Numbers 23:19).

It is impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18).

But that’s just what a liar would say, isn’t it? Let’s see what the Good Book admits about God lying.

What about justified lies?

The classic example of a justified lie is lying to Nazis about the Jews hiding in the attic. The Bible shows this kind of lie when Rahab lied about the hidden Israelite spies (Joshua 2:4–5) or when the Israelite midwives lied to protect the male babies from Pharaoh (Exodus 1:19). Humans must lie in such situations because they aren’t omnipotent. Rahab couldn’t teleport the spies to safety, and the midwives couldn’t protect the babies like Superman.

God has no such excuse.

God lies in Garden of Eden story

We can’t even get out of the Creation story without seeing God lie. God says to Adam, “You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die” (Gen. 2:17). Adam doesn’t, and he lives to be 930 years old.

The rationalization that “die” only meant that Adam and Eve had been immortal before eating the fruit won’t work. Remember that God had to exile them from the Garden so they wouldn’t eat from the Tree of Life. (More on the immediacy of death from the fruit here.)

God lies to Ahab

Israel and Judah allied to fight the country of Aram across the Jordan River (1 Kings 22). King Ahab of Israel consulted his 400 prophets and was assured of success. Prophet Micaiah was the sole holdout, but his prophecy turned out to be correct—the battle was lost and Ahab was killed. How then had the 400 other prophets gotten it completely wrong? Micaiah tells us that Yahweh wanted Ahab to die and authorized a spirit to cause the prophets to lie to lure him into the battle.

New Testament lying

Remember how God hardened Pharaoh’s heart to prevent him from doing the right thing (Exodus 9:12)? We see the same in the New Testament. 2 Thessalonians predicts that “the lawless one” will deceive during the end times. To people caught by the lie, “God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness” (2 Thess. 2:11–12).

We see something similar when Paul describes God’s frustration at the people who don’t get it. “God [gives] them over in the sinful desires of their hearts” (Romans 1:24).

The Jewish opponents of Jesus saw his miracles. They didn’t believe, not because the evidence was poor or because they didn’t understand or because they were stubborn. No, they didn’t believe because God deliberately hardened their hearts (John 12:37–40). John says, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts.”

But why harden the hearts of bad people? Were they going to do bad things on their own accord or not?

Jesus lying

Jesus was wrong when he predicted an imminent end: “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened” (Matt. 24:34). The end of the world obviously didn’t happen in the first century.

Christian apologists try to argue that it wasn’t exactly the end of the world but something else that was predicted. But Jesus makes clear what “all these things” that would soon come to pass. He’s predicting a galactic apocalypse: “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.” There’s no chance we would’ve missed that one.

This may not be a deliberate lie like we saw from God but rather an inadvertent lie, but the result is the same.

God is untrustworthy

In a recent post, I noted that God bragged that he had deliberately given his people bad laws:

So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live; I defiled them through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord (Ezekiel 20:25–6).

Since God has lied to us in the past, what’s to stop him from doing it again? Which of God’s current laws is also a deliberately bad law? That’s the problem when you lie—now we can’t trust you for anything.

He hardens hearts to steer people away from the right path. He demanded that Abraham sacrifice Isaac and then revealed that it was a ruse. Sure, an all-powerful god can do whatever that he wants, but this god is untrustworthy. Inerrancy is gone.

Am I an atheist because God hardened my heart? If so, why do I deserve hell? And for the Christians celebrating that they’re going to heaven, how can they trust God about that whole salvation thing? Maybe God lied about that, too.

Christian apologists will try to spin the story to salvage some credibility for God, but what can this guy do and be declared immoral? If he’s simply moral by definition, then the claim is meaningless.

Ignorance isn’t just what you don’t know;
it’s also what you won’t know
— Aron Ra

Photo credit: Wikipedia


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  • MNb

    This angle is too simple for me. It assumes that statements are either lies of truths. That’s obviously not the case. There are also partial lies. Moreove we can keep things from other people. Especially the latter can be a powerful weapon.
    Goofy example: you ask me to tell you what I know about snow. I only tell you that snow is white. Now it happens to important for you to know whether snow is cold or not. But I don’t tell you. Technically I’m not lying, but I’m still playing a nasty trick on you.
    One reason I don’t think the Bible is a reliable source for ethics is that it doesn’t have an eye for such subtleties. Hence I don’t buy the claim it’s divinely inspired. If I’m smart enough to be aware of such moral problems I would expect that god were too – and that he would tell his Chosen People about it.
    God not doing so is as damning as me not telling you that snow is cold.

    • anon

      No… the article gives examples where God outright lies, not simply withholds truths. Give it another go.

      • MNb

        Perhaps you should give my comment another go and carefully reread the first seven words.

  • Al

    What warped reasoning. Death is used in different ways in Scripture. Death means separation. Death is the spirit of man separating from the body. It also means separation from God which is what Adam and Eve experienced. They no longer walked with God in the cool of the day in garden. Eventually they were cast out of the garden and did experience physical death centuries later in the case of Adam.

    God made it possible for the pharaoh to believe lies because that is what pharaoh wanted.

    Matthew 24:34 is not the “generation” He was talking to but the generation that will exist when He returns. This is the generation that will see these things happen.

    Your exegesis is terrible. Yikes.

    • adam

      And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them
      that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen
      the kingdom of God come with power. Matthew 16

      Disagrees with your ‘generation’ statement.
      It WAS the generation he was talking to….

      • Al

        How could that be the generation He was speaking to when all the things He predicted did not happen?

        Matt 16 quote is a reference to His transfiguration in chapter 17.

        • RowanVT

          Because… he was wrong, and not actually the son of god?

        • Al

          How could He be wrong when there is no indication from any source in the early church that even hints at this? They certainly did not think He was wrong.

        • Pofarmer

          The early church was full of apocalyptic thinking, still is. Every generation has believed they were the ones who were going to see jesus return. Still ain’t happened. Ain’t gonna happen.

        • Al

          Just because it hasn’t happened yet does not mean it won’t in the future.

        • RowanVT

          If by “in the future” you mean billions of years from now when the sun expands and cooks/swallows the planet, sure…

        • Pofarmer

          Yes Al, I’m sure Jesus and an army of Angels are going to pop through the firmamament any day now.

        • RowanVT

          What, are you expecting the leaders of a religion to shout from the rooftop “Follow this religion, it’s WRONG!”? Are you really that naive? Your source is the bible, the same book that declares bats are birds and that rabbits chew cud.

          People are also severely devoted to their beliefs; they can’t countenance that something they have wrapped their self-identity in can be mistaken, because that would mean their whole life was a lie. Those sorts of people will hand-wave away any obvious problems because they are too entrenched in their identity. This is true for modern people *ahem* and was certainly true for those 2 thousand years ago. They had devoted their lives, alienated family, faced persecution and risked death. Who wants to have done that for something that is not true? So therefore it HAD to be true, despite all the evidence against it.

          That’s why there are people who say that, no matter what evidence is shown them, they will ALWAYS believe. That is not a healthy lifestyle or life view. Self delusion is harmful.

        • Al

          So what is the evidence that atheism is true? Atheists believe it is true so there must be some evidence that it is. Maybe they believe its true by blind faith wishful thinking?

        • RowanVT

          I *disbelieve* because of a lack of evidence for a deity. There is NO objective proof that a deity exists.

          Prove to me your god exists, and I’ll stop being an atheist.

          P.s. You can’t use the bible as proof, for reasons I already stated.

        • Al

          Creation, the origin of life and the resurrection of Christ. The Bible is a record of God’s dealing in history.

        • MNb

          God according to you is involved in creation, the origin of life and the Resurrection (they were possible because god) and then according to you are proof of god. That’s a circular argument and hence must be rejected.
          It also confirms your inconsistency, which is evidence that your version of theism is incorrect – hence atheism.

        • Al

          How is Creation, the origin of life and the resurrection of Christ as proof for God’s existence a circular argument?

        • Pofarmer

          You are presupposing the answer.

        • MNb

          Because your god is presupposed to be involved in these phenomena, which I just explained. Six letters, first one an s, last one a d.

        • Same old flabby arguments, eh? They won’t work any better this time around, I’m afraid.

        • RowanVT

          Circular reasoning. You are saying the bible is correct because it *says* it is correct. This does not work. Remember how I said that no religious leader is going to say “Follow this religion, it’s wrong!”, well no “holy” book is going to say the same thing.

          Thus, you can’t use the bible as proof. It utterly fails as proof.

          So once again, NOT using the bible… prove that your god exists. Prove to me, objectively, that jesus rose from the dead, NOT using the bible.

        • Carol Lynn

          Atheism is true! I assert that I have heard that directly from no god at all! Atheists also have BOOKS. We have both old, venerable, sacred books and new books and really smart, educated people who explain the quotes from them to us. Atheists can look at the universe and explain how it happened. That’s exactly the same amount of evidence that theists have. So there! /sarcasm

          Al, have you ever considered taking a class in logic or even rhetoric at the local community college? Maybe get some debate experience on topics other than religion? You do not seem to be able to structure nor parse an argument.

        • Al

          Where are the facts for your assertion that atheism is true? If you have been an atheist for any time I would think you would know what some of the facts are that support atheism.

        • Carol Lynn

          Al, I GAVE you the facts. We have authoritative books that say there is no god and, besides, no god told me so itself! Right there in my head and heart. We can look at the wonder and beauty of the universe and see no god there at all. Sheesh. What more do you want? Can you give me any facts that support theism that are better than that?

        • Al

          Let’s test some of your assertions. What ultimate meaning does atheism give the atheist? Where is such a principle spelled out in atheism?

          Christianity gives answers to these questions and I want to know the answers from atheism itself.

        • Carol Lynn

          No, No, Al. I want your FACTS that prove god exists before I go any farther. Real facts. Not just opinions. Where is YOUR factual evidence that a god exists? Spell it out for me.

        • MNb

          Wrong. Christianity does not give answer to these questions. What christianity offers is just made up incoherent and inconsistent stuff.

        • Pofarmer

          Yep, Christianity PRETENDS to give answers to these questions.

        • Christianity has one ultimate meaning and Buddhism has another. Should I flip a coin to decide which one to follow? “Cuz Al said so” isn’t that convincing, sorry.

        • Pofarmer

          “What ultimate meaning does atheism give the atheist?”

          Now who’s being emotional?

        • Kodie

          That’s really lame and stupid. Does a human-constructed meaning make a god real? Christianity gives a lot of answers, but they are made up, and can be criticized or even used without the aid or inclusion of a supernatural creature. The Christian laws are patterned on human behavior, superstition, and authoritative guesses. Science trumps all of that. Don’t hate science because it’s a modern observation that eclipses your ancient hippity-hopping sacrificial pagan rituals.

        • Carol Lynn

          Seriously, Al, look into taking some classes that will teach you how to structure and respond to arguments. You suck at it.

        • Kodie

          There are no facts for the assertion that atheism are true. Every argument for theism is false, so what is left. Atheism. Prove your god is real or else that’s that.

        • I gave you the pointers to arguments for atheism. Apparently you think that if you ignore them, they’ll go away.

          I hope you don’t take that route for cancer …

        • Kodie

          Arguments for a god do not satisfy the requirements for evidence or proof.

        • al kimeea

          The BuyBull shows the christian deity is as relevant as Quetzalcoatl. I’ve read the entire book. It is the ‘Plan 9 from Outer Space’ of literature.

        • GubbaBumpkin

          How could He be wrong when there is no indication from any source in the
          early church that even hints at this? They certainly did not think He
          was wrong.

          They were a bunch of morons. The existence of morons does not prove the existence of God.

        • Pofarmer

          That’s my contention, christianity has been led by the very gullible for centuries.

        • Al

          And believed by some of the smartest people who have ever lived.

        • MNb

          The smartest people who have ever lived can act totally moronic and gullible. They are absolutely not free from self-deceit. And if they have political interests, like Rowan points out underneath, self-deceit only becomes easier.
          The fact that you don’t recognize this and refer to the early church as an authority shows once again the inconsistency of your brand of theism, thus is evidence for atheism.

        • Al

          HUh??? That would be a contradiction.

        • Pofarmer

          Oh, not at all. The best scientists know and understand that it’s easy to be deceived, and very easy to deceive yourself.

        • MNb

          Nope. Aristarchos of Samos proposed heliocentrism 1700 years ago. Still the smartest people who have ever lived – the ones you’re talking about – rejected his proposal. In this respect they were moronic and gullible.
          The same for Isaac Newton. Quite a smart guy, eh? Still he moronicly and gullibly dabbled in alchemy. In our times it’s not different. Take these Nobel Price Winners. They belong to the smartes people of the 20th Century.

          http://www.cracked.com/article_18638_4-nobel-prize-winners-who-were-clearly-insane.html

        • smrnda

          People are not necessarily experts outside of their domains, and even an expert is only worth listening to when they bring evidence.

          Were I to publish a new article (I have not in years) nobody will accept it just since my name is slapped on it and someone thought I was right before – if that happens, it is a failure of the peer review process. Anything new I put out should be subjected to the same scrutiny. Even an expert can get sloppy.

        • In the days before modern science, religion was the only game in town. I can’t fault Newton and other greats from the past for being Christian since there was little science to explain things any better.

        • adam

          The early church was a political party corrupted for political power using propaganda.

          The first tool of Propaganda is ‘The Big Lie’, it is a LIE directed at the EMOTIONS of those being propagandized, to get them to act viscerally, not REASONABLY…

          Propaganda is the reasoning behind why there is ONLY ONE unforgivable sin…………..dissent and exposure of ‘The Big Lie’.

        • Al

          And your proof is?????

        • Carol Lynn

          Oh, oh. I can legitimately Godwin the thread! Nazi Germany. That’s where the term “The Big Lie” comes from but the propaganda technique is much older than that. Look it up, Al. Wikipedia has a nice introduction to the concept. Google – or the search engine of your choice – can be your friend, Al. Use it!

        • Al

          Where in the teachings of Christ could Nazism rightly justify itself?

        • adam

          “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and
          Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

          -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

        • Carol Lynn

          You are an ignorant person, aren’t you, Al? Nazis were Christians and used the bible to justify themselves. Use that search engine hint I gave you before and go look it up.

        • Al

          Yes I am ignorant of this and I want you to give me some facts for your claims. Otherwise I will think of you as being opinionated and biased.

        • Pofarmer

          You are disshonest Al. We’ve already been all through this.

        • Carol Lynn

          Wha…? You don’t have any FACTS that show that god exists? Than why are you here arguing? You are not only ignorant, you are lazy. Go use google to look things up. I see no reason to pander to your sloth.

        • Carol Lynn

          And I think of you as slothful, opinionated, and biased.

        • adam

          History

        • Al

          Give me some examples from the first and 2nd centuries where the ” early church was a political party corrupted for political power using propaganda”.

        • adam

          Give me some examples of where it was NOT…

          Power is all about politics and getting the masses to do what you want. Politics is all about power.
          The early church was looking for POWER.

          Irenaeus was a pure politician.

        • MNb

          That’s an open door. Organized religion is always political, just like an organization like a chess club. So I’m not sure what you are trying to show.

        • Kodie

          If they thought Jesus was right, it’s like they ignored what actually happened, like you.

        • Pofarmer

          Nice to see you back, Kodie.

        • Pofarmer

          That would seem like the obvious answer, wouldn’t it?

        • adam

          27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

          So final judgement is done as Jesus said?

          .
          . 24For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

          26“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

          28“It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

          30“It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32Remember Lot’s wife! 33Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36]

        • Al

          No.

        • adam

          So Jesus was incorrect..

        • Al

          No

        • adam

          Of course he was wrong………….

          27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his
          angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

          28And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Matthew

          Every man has not been rewarded according to his works and all those people he spoke to are all DEAD…

        • Al

          If Jesus was wrong about this why don’t we see anyone in the early centuries in the church saying this?

        • MNb

          For the same reason none of his contemporaries (and nobody 1700 years after him) took over Aristarchos of Samos’ proposal of heliocentrism.

        • You do know that this is religion, right? The NT isn’t a history blog where people are focused on the historical truth.

        • Kodie

          They couldn’t be mistaken or trying to sell something or have a political agenda, any one of those things. Right? You’re so easily persuaded, do you think they did the hard work for you, and wouldn’t be so easily persuaded?

        • Nemo

          Maybe the New Testament writers didn’t know what they were talking about? No, no, Jesus simply must have been talking about today. Just like he was talking about twenty years ago. And forty years ago. And so on.

        • Because the gospels story is just bullshit? Or is this a trick question?

        • Kodie

          A normally sharp intellect would pick up on that and think maybe the book lied, maybe the character in the story is not real and didn’t keep a promise because he can’t. But someone like you assumes he must have been talking to someone else, and didn’t break his promise. The early churches are like you, in deep denial. If you are looking to them for confirmation that your assumptions are correct and the rest of us just look stupid to you, there you go. This fact doesn’t match up with that fact, and we’re the ones who are wrong.

        • Al

          Why would they lie about such a thing? What would they have to gain by doing so?

        • Kodie

          You don’t know? You’re not skeptical about the discrepancy, you make up a lie to join the two parts in your own mind so it seems consistent – what do you have to gain from it?

          They have the same things you have to gain and more. Political, financial. Why not set up a church, Al, and make promises and cure the afflicted from the disease you’ve just given them, and make a lot of money that way. You’re really naive.

        • Al

          So you don’t know. You are very very ignorant about these things.

        • Kodie

          No, it’s just really a stupid question. Why would anyone lie about Jesus? Why are you lying about Jesus right now?

        • Al

          If I’m lying then you had better have some facts that show that. If you don’t then you are slandering.

        • Kodie

          Do you know for a fact Christianity is true?

        • You’ve made some incredibly bold claims about the supernatural without any evidence. I think the ball’s in your court.

        • Pofarmer

          What did Joseph smith have to gain from it? What did Hubbard have to gain from it?

        • Huh?? Joseph Smith got sex with loads of women and L. Ron Hubbard got to be the powerful head of a church! Of course they had something to gain!

          Oh … wait a minute. I see your point.

        • Al

          In those cases I would think money and influence over those that followed them.

        • Kodie

          Oh, those isolated cases of religions you don’t believe in have a motivation you can understand. But you are too smart to fall for that! Ha ha ha.

        • Or, y’know, maybe the gospel story is just a story. We see that in other stories from long ago.

        • MNb

          Just like early christianity. That enabled Paulus to do some nice sightseeing in the Roman Empire, didn’t it? Where would that money come from, you think?

        • Pofarmer

          Al, we have groups like the Heavens Gate cult. We have the followers of “Whats’ his name that keeps predicting the end of the world and it keeps not happening, but they keep believing. Followers tend to deal with cognitave dissonance in interesting ways. The leader being wrong can actually strengthen their faith.

          Eric Hoffer, “The True Believers” you should read it.

        • I assume What’s his name is my old buddy Harold “the sky is falling!” Camping.

          5/21/11–you can count on it.

        • Pofarmer

          That’s the dude! My mind ain’t what it used to be………huh? Oh look………

        • Al

          No doubt there are people who abuse the religious beliefs of some people. However, they are not mainstream.

        • Kodie

          Are you mainstream? And you’re a Christian?

        • Al

          yep.

        • Kodie

          But you don’t think you’re a pawn. I don’t know why you’re here, I don’t know what bothers you if I don’t agree with Christianity or your beliefs are criticized by people who are not convinced. You’re not being abused, you’re righteous and not a total fool like those other people! You think you’re too smart to fall for it, and yet here you are arguing. Mainstream Christianity in a mainstream Christian country, your religion is not the same as those superstitions and cults that take advantage of people! Oh no, they’ve just taken advantage of the most people.

        • Al

          I’m here to dialogue with atheists.These forums are great for people of different views to discuss their views with those who don’t agree with them. I have not found these kinds of discussions in my church with atheists (because they don’t go to places like that) or even on the streets.

          I’m sure Bob likes to dialogue with Christians since he writes a lot of articles related to Christianity. I would think he expects some push back from Christians and relishes it.

          I’m not bothered that you don’t agree with me. In fact, I want the atheist to give me his best criticisms of my faith. This helps me to determine if what I believe is true or not. If not, then I will reject it. This is a great place to find out.

          I also expect the atheist to put his atheism on the line also and see if he can make the case for it being true. I don’t find many atheists who like to do this.

        • Kodie

          I haven’t seen you dialogue at all. I’ve seen you back off entirely from answers you’ve gotten and then claim to another poster that you are waiting for their answer. I haven’t seen you state your case for Christianity being true.

          Dishonest=Christian.

        • Al

          For Christianity to be true,
          1- God must exist.
          2- God Himself came into the world as a human being in the person of Christ.
          3-The New Testament is a record of what Christ did and taught is true.
          4- What Christ taught is universal for all mankind to believe.

          This in a nutshell is why I believe Christianity is true.

        • This is theology, not evidence.

        • Al

          Evidence for God and Christ partly theological and also historical. Evidence for God can be seen in the world and evidence for the impact of the teachings of Christ can be seen in the lives of those who believe.

          Being an atheist limits the categories that you can think in. Its all physical and that’s it. Sad.

        • “That’s it?” Show me that there’s more and I’ll agree that there’s more.

        • Al

          That’s it. Go for it.

        • Kodie

          Just because people believe those are the teachings of a supernatural dude does not mean they are the teachings of a supernatural dude. That’s not how evidence works, that’s only faith, which is belief without evidence, also known as wishful thinking and all the parts of logic you skip to get there.

        • Al

          I agree in part with your first point. However,if you want to defeat Christianity then show with facts that Christ did not rise from the dead. If you can do this, then we would know His teachings were not from God. If you can’t then you should reconsider your position.

        • Kodie

          I don’t think you’re mentally equipped to understand how this works.

        • Al

          This is another cop-out. Just give me an argument against the resurrection and we will see how good it is.

        • Kodie

          What is your evidence for the resurrection? A storybook.

        • Al

          Here is some from I Corinthians 15:

          “3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared toJames, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.”

        • Kodie

          According to some other storybook, dude I’m totally not making this shit up!

        • Al

          And you know this how????

        • Kodie

          That’s the essence of 1 Corinthians 15 that you posted. I don’t know it, you’re the one who posted this bullshit.

        • Pofarmer

          If only Al were a one off.

        • Pofarmer

          O.K. Al. I want you to dissprove that my Aunt Maxine didn’t raise from the dead. She came back for 3 days, and then left for heaven. My Cousins wrote a book about it, and I had visions of her. It was really fantastic. My Dad and her husband have had visions too. It was really eerie.

        • Al

          First lets establish that it did happen. If there is no evidence for it, then we are on good grounds to say it didn’t happen.
          Not rising from the dead is normal.
          Its not uncommon for loved ones to have visions of their dead.

        • Pofarmer

          It absolutely happened. My cousins wrote about it. Her whole church saw her raised. Then, after 3 days, she went to heaven. I had visions about it later on. My Dad and her husband had visions of her first.

        • Al

          Where is the evidence? Who were the eyewitnesses? If I was investigating this then i will need the names, phone #’s, email so I could talk to them myself. Are you willing to give me this information?

        • Pofarmer

          You now have exactly as much information as the Gospels give, heck, plus Paul.

        • Al

          But you can give me more knowledge since the eyewitnesses are alive. Can’t do that with the gospels.

        • Pofarmer

          It happened 75 years ago.

        • Kodie

          So you’re saying you can’t believe a similar story because some of the witnesses are still alive and you need to question them before you can believe their testimony, but you are satisfied with a lot less information from the scripture because you can’t track down the dudes and relying on ancient Pofarmers’ testimony. I’m sorry, that’s just not enough knowledge for me!

        • Al

          There is an opportunity to interview the eyewitnesses for Pofarmer’s claim. We don’t have that with the gospel accounts.

        • adam

          So you are saying the gospel accounts are more reliable because you dont have that with the gospel accounts?

        • Al

          The gospel accounts line up well with the history of the time.

        • adam

          That wasnt the question asked.

        • Translation: “Yeah, it sucks, but all the histories from the time sucked, so we’ll just have to deal with it.”

        • Kodie

          So just because they’re all dead now and we can’t ask them, we’re just supposed to let something like that slide. We can’t ask them so assume it’s true. You can’t ask Pofarmer’s relatives about the visions of Aunt Maxine, so why do you need to? You have different standards for different stories, and we have no more reason to believe in yours than you do to believe in the resurrection of Aunt Maxine.

        • That’s true. And what do we conclude from that?

        • Kodie

          While we’re waiting, perhaps you could tell me Paul’s email address. I would like to ask him some questions about what he saw. tx

        • You first.

        • Kodie

          There is plenty of evidence for the resurrection of Aunt Maxine.

        • RowanVT

          First you must attempt to prove that Jesus DID rise from the dead… and without using the stories of his followers. Or else you must believe all the tales of Coyote, who frequently dies but is reborn with the sun the next day.

        • Al

          Right. Lol. That’s like saying we are not allowed to prove Lincoln was shot by any bios or newspaper accounts.

          The gospel accounts are the primary source data for the resurrection. These are the eyewitness accounts of it. No one would discount them since they are the primary source documents.

        • adam

          No they are not primary source documents.
          The documents came from oral stories.

        • Al

          You really should read up on this. Scholars look at the gospels and the New Testament are the primary sources for the life of Christ because there are no other sources for His life that we have.

        • adam

          I have.
          They are politicized mythology.
          That explainss the lack of sources, the story is simply NOT true.

        • Kodie

          because there are no other sources for His life that we have.

          BINGO!

        • Pofarmer

          Maybe Al just had a little revelation there?

        • Kodie

          Al has no sense of irony AT ALL.

        • You really should read up on this.

          That’s pretty bold talk from someone who doesn’t understand how the burden of proof works.

        • RowanVT

          Pfft, you really don’t understand anything do you? The photos we have, the body we had, the killer we had, the people-who-weren’t-just-his-friends who reported on it and saw it and saw the body are all outside verification.

          What do we have for Jesus? Some dudes going “No really guys, he totally rose from the dead and you need to believe us.”

          What you are trying to claim is that Lincoln rose from the dead, and because we have the stories for his death we totally have to believe these 4 guys who say that he appears to all his friends after he was shown to be dead.

        • Pofarmer

          It’s not sad, it’s just how it is. I can love, hate, learn, teach, work, play just like anyone else. I just think that your metaphysical beliefs are a total crock.

        • adam

          Actually being a theist LIMITS the categories you can think in. You statement demonstrates that well.

          Evidence of the teachings of Christ:

          A woman who allegedly stabbed her husband said she did it after, “Jesus and Mary told me to kill him because he is Satan’s spawn!” according to a police report.

          Police in South Carolina released new details from the Nov. 9 attack, which landed 36-year-old Tammi Estep behind bars and her husband in the hospital, The Smoking Gun reports.

          Horry County Police deputies were called to Estep’s residence at approximately 6:45 a.m. on the day of the incident. When they arrived, Estep told officers that “She was sent to save the world,” according to a police report.

        • Al

          ?????

        • Kodie

          That in a nutshell is what you believe but it in no way describes why you believe. It’s just dogma. If I gave you such a fart answer to your question why atheism is true, you would think I’m a fucking idiot, wouldn’t you? Try harder.

        • Al

          So you have no positive evidence for atheism being true. Got it.

        • Kodie

          Your argument is crap. That’s my positive evidence.

        • Al

          This is exactly your arguments for atheism. Go figure.

        • Kodie

          An omniscient deity uses a moron like you to argue for his existence? Not a lot of confidence in this system, yeah.

        • Al

          It really doesn’t take much to argue with an atheist. There isn’t anything there that can be said to be true.

        • Kodie

          I have no requirement to engage with a typical dishonest Christian. I gave you several posts yesterday that you didn’t answer.

        • Al

          Copout

        • Kodie

          I made a series of basic informative posts in answer to your question you had yesterday, and later, you addressed another poster, while ignoring my explanations that I created especially for you, which you still have yet to respond to, and you told this other poster you wanted answers to the same questions I already answered. So you want to say I’m the one who’s copping out, liar? You say you come to me honestly, you want to know, you have strong desire to learn and those horrible atheists have no answers. You’re a liar, and I’m calling you out as a liar.

          This is a typical dishonest Christian tactic of ignoring information directed at you and pretending you don’t know and nobody will tell you. It’s the poor confused Christian who just wants to learn and everyone is being so mean! Put on your phony baloney act for someone else.

        • Burden of proof is yours, Chester.

        • Pofarmer

          Uhm, Al, so far all you have given us is God of the Gaps arguments and presupposition. You have pretty much failed on 1.

          2 is pretty much EXACTLY Greco Roman mythology, or a slight variation of it for many charchters and demigods. Hercules springs to mind, but there were certainly many others.
          3 The NT is full of stories and fables taken from the New Testament and Greek writings of the day. Read Randal Helms “The Gospel Fictions” to see how everything lines up. Robert G. Price also has an excellent essay up on “The Gospel of Mark as Allegory.” Since both Matthew and Luke borrow so heavily on Mark, they are essentially using Mark, and Changing it, to fit their own theology. The fact that the Authors of Mathew and Luke would do that tells su that Mark is not really history, but theology. Bart Ehrman just did a really worthwhile blog post on it. If you want to know what the early church new about Jesus, read the Authentic letters of Paul. The answer is, not much.
          4) some of what Jesus supposedly taught was ripped from other religions of the day or the past. The Goden Rule, for instance, had been around forever. The Sermon on the Mount is really pretty horrible advice. Likewise, his teaching on slavery amounts to “don’t kill your slaves quickly.” The Gospels show no more knowledge or morality than any other person of the time could possess.

          It would do you good to read “Not the impossible faith” By Richard Carrier, which details the rise and spread of Christianity, with lots and lots of detail and footnotes.

          This, in a nutshell, is why I believe Christianity is full of shit.

        • Al

          2-What scholars in the field claim that the gospels are “Greco Roman mythology, or a slight variation of it for many charchters and demigods”?

          3-I’m aware of these claims but they are all opinions. There are no facts to back it up. Here is what Peter, the head apostle wrote about this:
          ” For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.” 2 Peter 1

          You really should be reading better scholarship than the ones you promote. No wonder your confused.

        • Pofarmer

          Uhm, Al, quoting the bible as proof of the bible ain’t gonna cut it.

        • Al

          Why? If the Bible accurately records something then it should be believed. If a history book records an event that no one living saw should we believe it as being true?

        • Pofarmer

          We know that some things are not recorded accurately by the bible. In order to say that something in the bible is history, it needs to be verified by some other evidence. I know this is hard.

        • Al

          Do you know that most of ancient history has not been verified by some other evidence?

        • Pofarmer

          Some has, some hasn’t. The very best has been. Even at that, the Gospels and Acts don’t meet the minimum criteria for an Historical work. They are unattributed in the work. They don’t list sources. They are riddled with miracles. Among other things. http://adversusapologetica.wordpress.com/category/ancient-biography/

        • Al

          Actually the gospels are established historically. Luke is know by many historians as a first rate historian, Consider this:
          “Based on his accurate description of towns, cities and islands, as well as correctly naming various official titles, archaeologist Sir William Ramsay wrote that “Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy… [he] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians.”[15] Professor of classics at Auckland University,E.M. Blaiklock, wrote: “For accuracy of detail, and for evocation of atmosphere, Luke stands, in fact, with Thucydides. The Acts of the Apostles is not shoddy product of pious imagining, but a trustworthy record… it was the spadework of archaeology which first revealed the truth.”[16] New Testament scholar Colin Hemer has made a number of advancements in understanding the historical nature and accuracy of Luke’s writings.[17]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_the_Evangelist

        • adam

          Based on his accurate description of towns, cities and islands, as well as correctly naming various official titles, archaeologist Sir William
          Ramsay wrote

          From the SAME wikipedia page:
          However, during modern times, Luke’s competence as a historian is questioned, although that depends on one’s a priori view of the supernatural. A materialist would see a narrative that relates supernatural, fantastic things like angels, demons etc., as problematic as a historical source. And it is understood that Luke did not intend to record history. His intention was to proclaim and to
          persuade. Many see this understanding as the final nail in Luke the historian’s coffin

          So whether Luke’s writings are history or fable depends on your BELIEF in MAGIC….

          The same could be stated for any Greco-Roman ‘story’.

        • Al

          I get the sense you believe in MAGIC.

        • adam

          Like I have stated before, NO I dont believe in MAGIC.

        • Al

          Are you sure? You bring it up alot to explain things you don’t understand well.

        • adam

          Of course I am sure.

        • Kodie

          I think the article demonstrates that the bible does not accurately record many things. And yet here you are ignorant dishonest Christian making a truth claim of the bible. We have no such reason to believe the bible is an accurate record of any true events except those corroborated by other historical documents. The bible is not a historical document just because some of the events were historical any more than Gone With The Wind is a historical document. .

        • Al

          Not true.
          “Most scholars understand Luke’s works (Luke-Acts) in the tradition of Greek historiography.[12] The preface of The Gospel of Luke[13] drawing on historical investigation identified the work to the readers as belonging to the genre of history.[14] There is some disagreement about how best to treat Luke’s writings, with some historians regarding Luke as highly accurate, and others taking a more critical approach.

          Based on his accurate description of towns, cities and islands, as well as correctly naming various official titles, archaeologist Sir William Ramsay wrote that “Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy… [he] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians.”[15] Professor of classics at Auckland University,E.M. Blaiklock, wrote: “For accuracy of detail, and for evocation of atmosphere, Luke stands, in fact, with Thucydides. The Acts of the Apostles is not shoddy product of pious imagining, but a trustworthy record… it was the spadework of archaeology which first revealed the truth.”[16] New Testament scholar Colin Hemer has made a number of advancements in understanding the historical nature and accuracy of Luke’s writings.[17]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_the_Evangelist

        • adam

          Based on his accurate description of towns, cities and islands, as well as correctly naming various official titles, archaeologist Sir William
          Ramsay wrote

          From the SAME wikipedia page:
          However, during modern times, Luke’s competence as a historian is questioned, although that depends on one’s a priori view of the supernatural. A materialist would see a narrative that relates supernatural, fantastic things like angels, demons etc., as problematic as a historical source. And it is understood that Luke did not intend to record history. His intention was to proclaim and to persuade. Many see this understanding as the final nail in Luke the historian’s coffin

          So whether Luke’s writings are history or fable depends on your BELIEF in MAGIC….
          The same could be stated for any Greco-Roman ‘story’.

        • hector_jones

          Each gospel is exactly what a person living in that time period who had already come to believe that Jesus was sent by God would have written. Only apologists think that the gospels were written as histories, because it suits their purposes to believe so, just like they try to pass of their beliefs as scientific when it suits them.

        • Al

          The gospels were written as histories. They describe the events and life of Christ. Many of the details of them are confirmed by historians,

        • Nice one! A hilariously bad argument is still funny the second time around. Or the tenth.

          You could be a doll with a string that makes you say some random empty apologetic. Or maybe “Al the Magic 8 Ball.”

          Could be some money in that, Al. You might want to think about it.

        • adam

          I am not sure I would go that far.
          They had their own cultural mythology and politics that they incorporated with the new STORIES to make it interesting and memorable to the storytellers audiences.

          Those that strong beliefs in MAGIC incorporated those into their own version of the tales.

        • Al

          Notice your quote that some historians don’t like Luke because he believes in the supernatural and not because he was not good with historical facts. If Luke “not intend to record history” then how is it that he got so many historical details correct?

          Many ancient historians wrote to persuade.

        • How do we know that Luke got historical details correct? Because he closely tracks Josephus?

          Hmm. Another explanation pops to mind.

        • Al

          No reason to think that Luke relied on Josephus. Luke probably wrote his gospel before 62. When did Josephus write?

        • 62?? Who says that? I’m pretty sure that’s not the consensus view of NT scholars.

        • adam

          Nothing about ‘don’t like’ in my quote from YOUR page.

          There are plenty of historical details in Spiderman, The Iliad, the Odessy and other Greco-Roman stories.
          Any good story has data that the listeners can relate to, so they are often like Spiderman framed in familiar locations with familiar people, basic to storytelling as is exaggeration.

          It is not uncommon for real people to end up in fantasy stories.
          http://www.pajiba.com/seriously_random_lists/news-anchors-making-tv-and-movie-cameos-stop-it-already-.php

        • Al

          Even if there is “plenty of historical details in Spiderman, The Iliad, the Odessy and other Greco-Roman stories” that still would not mean the gospels are not historical.

          None of the scholars I quoted to you believe the gospels are fantasies.

        • adam

          And none of the scholars I quoted you believe the gospels are true.

        • There are Muslim scholars who think that the Koran isn’t a fantasy as well. If I pointed them out to you, would that make a difference in your Christian belief? If not, why not?

        • The Troy from the Iliad actually existed.

          Kansas in Wizard of Oz really exists.

        • hector_jones

          His case for Christianity is the bible. That’s about it.

        • adam

          And my case for Spiderman is 50 years of documents and 6 video productions plus all the EYE WITNESSES.

        • Al

          Marvel comics does not claim that Spiderman is a historical person. You seem confused on this.

        • adam

          Well they SHOULD with all the available documentation and witnesses.
          It would be at LEAST as reliable as religion.

        • Al

          So you really believe Spiderman exist?

        • adam

          Just like I believe that god exists.
          And for the same reasons.

        • Kodie

          Ah, so now we’re up to claims. A book makes a claim that it’s true, so it must be true? Snake oil salesmen love guys like you.

        • hector_jones

          I hear there are 500 witnesses to the amazing Spiderman.

        • adam

          I saw a picture of him in Times Squares just a couple of days ago..

        • Al

          So you believe he exist and swings from the buildings during the day? Wow.

        • RowanVT

          Well, you believe in an invisible jewish zombie, so…

        • Kodie

          It’s like when you say things like this that I think you may just be too stupid to have a conversation with.

        • adam

          Yes, in the very same manner people have a ‘personal relationship with Jesus’.

        • No doubt. There are often crowd scenes where ordinary people stare in amazement at whatever Spider-man is doing at the moment. That’s easily 500.

        • Seriously? You’re really looking for the best critiques so that you can question your faith?

          That sounds great on the face of it (and you’re right–I do like thoughtful Christians to point out errors in my posts), but unfortunately, I see no chance of movement from you.

          I put my atheism on the line with every post and with every comment. Is Christianity true? Then convince me. I don’t want to back the wrong horse.

          Unfortunately, I don’t see that from you. You’ve shown no movement. Even small corrections about science (never demand that science can prove anything, for example) you never learn, and you frustratingly keep making the same mistakes over and over.

          I like Inquisitive Al and wish he’d bring more of his open-minded Christian friends. But an Al who is dogmatic (which is what I’ve seen) doesn’t bring much.

          (Well, besides being a punching bag for MNb, of course. That’s a plus.)

        • Al

          Ok. Tell me why you think atheism is true? What is the “positive” evidence for it being true?

        • Unfortunately, this is Stupid Al speaking.

          How many times have I answered this challenge? You ready? Let’s make this the last time: click on All Posts above. Poke around. I found 25 arguments for atheism (not just against Christianity) for a recent presentation at the Atheist Alliance of America conference. (With luck, I’ll get a link to that video within a month. I’ll be sure to share it if I do.)

          And you do realize that I have no burden of proof here, right? You’re making the claim. You must provide the evidence. Your challenge now is both to refute my arguments for atheism and to defend Christianity against atheists’ attack.

        • Al

          You do bear the burden of proof for atheism or any other belief system you adhere to. You need to man up.

          I ask for some arguments for atheism being true and you tell me to read all your posts. Go figure. You should be able to articulate a few of those arguments in a couple of sentences. If you can’t do that then you really don’t know it that well.

        • Big talk. And you need to “man up” to defend your belief that unicorns don’t exist?

          Wrong on both counts. Atheism is the null hypothesis. You’re making the incredible claim and must defend it. Deal with it.

          And, predictably, you don’t have time to search for posts in favor of atheism. So much for Al the bold and unflinching Explorer of the Truth.

        • Al

          Strike one. You can’t give me on argument for atheism being true. Got that.

          Why is atheism the null hypothesis?

        • I give you a blog. You refuse. I’m guessing that you’re chicken.

          What happened to the open minded Christian who posted so eloquently just recently? Put him back on instead of this asshole.

        • Al

          Were having a discussion and you don’t tell people to go read this, that and the other unless you want the discussion to end. I guess that is what you want and I don’t blame you.

        • Pofarmer

          He want’s you to be minimally informed so you don’t continually come off like a jerk and imbecile.

        • Al

          No he doesn’t. He deflecting. He can’t answer the questions.

        • Pofarmer

          He’s written entire blog posts that answer your very questions. If he is deflecting, he is deflecting you to the answers.

        • Kodie

          I highly doubt you read the article you’re posting on, for starters. Don’t you want to prove us wrong and say meaningful things that make us think? That make us think you’re at least engaged with the topic at hand and not the stereotypical dumbass dishonest lying sack of shit Christian? How stupid do you think we are, we’ve read Bob’s article, we’ve read your posts, and in several instances, provided you relevant answers to your curious questions and awaited some acknowledgment that you had learned something new, some follow-up discussion or question or even a severe mangling of what was written to you. But you are content to just go ’round and ’round.

        • Ouch. You called my bluff; you’re hitting me where I live. You’re right–I got nuthing. I only have a blog that I’ve been working on for 3 years at which I summarize why (1) Christianity is wrong and (2) why atheism is right.

          Indeed, I frequently tell people to go look up something. If I spent hours honing down the message so that it’s as clear as I can make it, it’s best for them to read that than the thoughts that come to mind in a few minutes. It’s about treating my readers right.

          But you’ve got no time to actually learn stuff, right? No need–you’ve got it all figured out.

        • Al

          I’d hate to think what would happen if I came over to your house and asked you a question.I better have my laptop and and internet connection just in case you tell me to go look up what you believe on the net or somewhere else. Yikes.

        • I get it. You are afraid to confront evidence that challenges deeply held beliefs. And there’s a little bit of that in all of us.

          But you got that in spades.

        • Al

          Ok. You win. I will have to have blind faith that you have the evidence somewhere in your articles.

        • That doesn’t sound like the Al I know. No, you have blind faith that I don’t.

        • MNb

          The fun thing is that Al wrote above:

          “You should be able to articulate a few of those arguments in a couple of sentences.”
          But when I ask him to explain how god is supposed to interact with our material reality I get “that’s too long to explain right here and now.”
          Isn’t his double standard lovely?

        • hector_jones

          I got the same treatment when he demanded skeletons of early humans from ‘evolutionists’ but when asked to produce the skeletons of Adam and Eve he said he didn’t need them, the bible was good enough.

        • Kodie

          You don’t engage honestly so we’re not going to do a lot of heavy lifting just for you to ignore it.

        • Kodie

          You’re on a blog about atheism. It’s like you don’t want to find out, you just want to bother people individually and pretend they didn’t answer you.

        • MNb

          “I’m here to dialogue with atheists.”
          Then your presence is a failure. Either you fail to understand what atheists say and address things they don’t say. Or you understand and change subject. Or you remain silent and simply repeat your “point” in another (sub)thread. Your very last sentence shows it:

          “I don’t find many atheists who like to do this.”
          I have responded extensively on this point. Other have too. Still you just repeat it.
          It makes you look (six letters, first letter an s, last letter a d, fourth letter a p). You do this because Kodie looks like another victim to you – you don’t know her, so you hope you can pull your cheap tricks to her. But I do know her and I look forward to her comments to you. Unless she has changed a lot it’s going to be big fun.

        • Al

          I hope its going to be “big fun” to because you don’t present any arguments or facts for your position and that is frustrating.

        • MNb

          You’re lying. I have given them extensively on this very page. The fact that you lie, stick to your lies and refuse to understand every single point I make is already a fact for my position and against christianity. But I’m happy to repeat.

          1. You don’t have a methodology to separate correct claims about the supernatural/immaterial/transcendental from incorrect ones. The fairies in my backyard are going as strong as ever. Your attempt to disprove them hopelessly backfired, because I showed that way the Resurrection is also disproven. Still you cling to the Resurrection and reject my fairies.
          This applies to every single belief system that includes supernatural entities. The only reasonable explanation left is that there aren’t any: no fairies, no god, no soul, no shapeshifters, nothing.
          2. You have failed to explain how any immaterial entity is supposed to interact with our material reality. How does the human soul interact with the material mind/brain? How do you know that god loves you? There are no possible answers exactly because interacting with our material reality requires material means, which immaterial entities by definition don’t have, whether gods, souls, ghosts or demons.
          Rowling in her Harry Potter series gives an excellent example of this problem. Her ghosts are not capable of eating but are capable of going through wallls. That’s all fine and consistent. But they are capable of talking and hearing. Sound consists of moving molecules. If these ghosts are not capable to interact with the molecules of food and walls, how do they set air molecules in motion, so that they result in sound?
          It makes no sense. In exactly the same way your position on god and sould doesn’t make any sense. The only possible conclusion is materialism and atheism.

          Btw in the meantime I have read some of Kodie’s comments and they are fun as always.

        • Al

          You never proved or demonstrated that there are fairies in your backyard. You lied about this.

          The way to determine “have a methodology to separate correct claims about the supernatural/immaterial/transcendental from incorrect ones” was by knowing how physical processes work and their limits. People during the time of Christ knew that when a person died they stayed dead. They knew nature worked this way. Now, Jesus comes along and raises the dead and they knew this was a work of God since nature cannot perform a resurrection. Only God can.

          #2 is to complex to go into here.

        • Pofarmer

          There are many cases of the dead being raised in the OT. Jesus miracles are generally a copy of those. Had to raise the dead to be at least a prophet, dontcha know. People also knew how to write stories. And Al, your “methodology” still doesn’t allow you to determine of the miracles of, say Sayeth sai Baba are true or not. You are obligated to believe every one of them.

        • Al

          No one in the OT raised the dead like Christ did. There is only one or 2 in the OT.
          Who is the OT healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, cured lepers, stilled the sea, walked on water, feed thousands with little, and cast out demons? Who did these kinds of things in pagan religions?

        • Pofarmer

          Randal Helms, “The Gospel Fictions.” Fairly short book, fairly quick read. The rising of Jarius daughter is ripped right from either Elijah or Elisha(I get those two confused) Almost everything attributed as Jesus works have a precedent either in OT scripture, which is the vast majority, or contemporary Greek literature.

        • Al

          Since you read these what is the evidence that “Jarius daughter is ripped right from either Elijah or Elisha”? I don’t want assertions here but facts.

          Just because something happened in the OT does not mean it did not happen in the NT. In fact the OT foreshadows what Christ would do in greater measure.

        • Pofarmer

          Ah, yes, foreshadowing. Combing the scriptures for prophecies.

        • MNb

          You never proved or demonstrated that the Resurrection happened. You lied about this. Plus the only reason you know I lie about my fairies is that I admitted it. So the only reason you accept the Resurrection is because you’re not as honest as me and don’t want to admit that you lied (eventually in disguise).

          “knowing how physical processes work and their limits.”
          This is manure. Knowing this says exactly zilch about the supernatural/immaterial/transcendental.

          “Jesus comes along and raises the dead”
          Circular argument. A miracle (ie something supernatural) happened, that proves the supernatural is possible, hence we must conclude that a miracle happened.
          There are exactly the same arguments and as much evidence for Jesus raising the dead as for the fairies in my backyard. You have totally failed in this respect. You will totally fail again.
          On internet I love to play games I can’t lose.

        • Al

          Of course the resurrection has been proved. There are no counter arguments against it that can account for all the details of it except that Christ did indeed rise again.

          Death is a natural event. When people die they stay dead. No natural forces can resurrect the dead. Since natural explanations fail to account for it then the only thing that could is God. It was a miracle.

        • MNb

          Of course the fairies in my backyard have been proven. There are no counterarguments against it that can account for all the details I can provide (the bright colours, the astonishing amount of buds on each plant, the lovely smells) except that they tend my flowers indeed.

          Your second paragraph is just a repeat of your circular argument. It was a miracle; since natural explanations fail to account for it the only thing that could is god. Hence it was a miracle.

        • Kodie

          Well, you started to get somewhere, but your conclusion is really far-fetched.

        • Al

          Its far fetched only if God does not exist but reasonable if He does.

        • Kodie

          And really you are going to skip over the part where we establish that he does. Let me tell you that lots of impossible things are possible if you invent a magical character who can do impossible things. Still not finding evidence here, just what is it called… uh, bullshit. Circular reasoning? Begging the question? Tautology? God can do god like things if he exists. No way.

        • adam

          But you’ve FAILED to demonstrate that YOUR god exists.

          I STILL have no evidence to convince me of YOUR god.

        • Al

          What kind of evidence do you need?

        • hector_jones

          I asked you this the other day – just give us your BEST evidence. You came up with absolutely nothing.

        • Al

          Here is some good evidence for the resurrection:

          “3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.”

          I Corinthians 15
          In a court of law this would be a slam dunk for the resurrection being true.

          You also know that the resurrection disproves atheism.

          Hope this helps.

        • adam

          Nope doesnt help.
          Could would never rely on quotes from an unreliable book.

          Slam dunk FAIL.

        • Al

          What makes you think that I Corinthians 15 is unreliable? What counter facts can you give me that shows this is unreliable?

        • adam

          It is not court evidence as you claimed.
          It is a STORY.
          It is in a book of myth and fantasy.

        • RowanVT

          It’s in the bible, which is unreliable.

          Are bats actually birds?
          Do rabbits chew cud?
          Are you willing to admit that many biblical scholars agree that exodus didn’t happen the way it is ‘reported’ in the bible?
          What about all the complete lack of evidence of any sort of global flood?
          Do you really think a guy survived 3 days inside a giant fish?
          Was the earth, and plants, made before the sun?
          Does the moon emit light of its own?

        • Al

          Do you understand how science classifies living things? Are these categories they use written in stone somewhere?

          There has been no archaeological find yet that has disproved the Bible. Also, archaeology has only uncovered a small percentage of what is out there. Keep in mind that lots of things don’t survive long in the desert. Especially after thousands of years.

          If a fish was big enough a man could survive for a few days.

          Where does it say “the moon emit light of its own?”

        • RowanVT

          1- You actually are claiming bats (mammals) are birds (avian dinosaurs)… You are so ignorant that it’s just sad.

          2- There is no evidence for the number of people claimed in exodus existing where exodus claimed they wandered for 40 YEARS. None. Not a single campsite, nothing. Also, things survive *great* in the desert! Sand buries them and preserves things. It’s not humid so things don’t decay as readily. If the desert didn’t preserve things for thousands of years quite well we wouldn’t have all those lovely ruins from that area.

          3- … you’re joking, right? Apparently you don’t understand oxygen consumption, co2 production, and stomach acid.

          4- Now you’ve shown that you are incredibly ignorant of your own holy text.

          Genesis 1:16

          16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

          The sun, and the moon, and the stars. It says the moon is a great light just as the sun is, but lesser.

        • Archaeology doesn’t disprove the Bible? Is that your best argument?

          “My belief is sound because it hasn’t been proven to be wrong!! XOXOXO 🙂 [puppies]”

          How old are you?!

        • Kodie
        • Pofarmer

          Because this is the only time Paul mentions the twelve apostles, or anyone mentions the 500. It reads just as well like this. “And that he appeared to Cephas, and then he appeared to James, and last of all, as to one untimely born…..” This actually agrees with everything else Paul writes.

        • hector_jones

          So the bible is your best evidence. And you know it’s true because God ‘reveals’ himself in it.

          I already responded to your arguments that the bible would be admissible in court. It would not be. That entire line of argument is groundless. Go look up my response, it was on Sunday I think. If this is a slam dunk why haven’t you Christians taken the matter to court and ‘proved’ that Christianity is true?

        • Al

          That’s not what Simon Greenleaf concluded who was ” one of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School, originally set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was certain that a careful examination of the internal witness of the Gospels would dispel all the myths at the heart of Christianity. But this legal scholar came to the conclusion that the witnesses were reliable, and that the resurrection did in fact happen.”
          http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/greenleaf.html

          Since the resurrection did happen that means Christianity is true.

        • RowanVT

          So Coyote is real then too. Cool. I’d start worshipping him, but Coyote tends to make the lives of his followers interesting

        • adam

          Heresay is STILL not evidence.

          He interview NO witnesses

        • Al

          Then you don’t believe anything in the ancient past.

        • adam

          Then you believe EVERYTHING in the ancient past?

          Did you read Simon Greenleafs paper?

          “Testimony of the Evangelists”

          He carried out a SHAM TRIAL, in which under the ‘ancient document’ he admits the gospels with the PRESUPPOSITION that they were true already. And with the PRESUPPOSITION that god was true as well.
          Kangaroo Court.

          ‘With respect to authentication, an “ancient document” is one that may be deemed authentic without a witness
          to attest to the circumstances of its creation because its age suggests that it is unlikely to have been falsified in anticipation of the litigation in which it is introduced.”

          Anyone could use the same basis for the Iliad or Odyssey and claim LEGALLY that Zeus was real.

          FAIL

          Try again……..

        • Al

          No. I don’t believe that secular writers got everything right.

          All of ancient history could be said to be hearsay. Since that is the case then you must not believe anything in the ancient past. Right?

        • RowanVT

          we might believe it… conditionally. Like we might believe a pair of brothers founded Rome, but not that they were raised by a wolf.

          We might conditionally believe that Jesus was a real person, but not that he walked on water, raised the dead, or himself rose from the dead.

        • adam

          Extraordinary claims……
          Require extraordinary evidence.

          Do you have any REAL evidence of your god?

        • hector_jones

          All history prior to living memory is hearsay. Deal with it, Chester.

        • Al

          Does that mean you to don’t believe anything in the ancient past to? Chester.

        • hector_jones

          No it doesn’t mean that.

        • hector_jones

          You haven’t actually read my comment in which I show that Greenleaf is wrong.

          And you haven’t explained why Christians haven’t brought the case to court long ago and proved Christianity. If it’s a slam dunk, what are you waiting for?

          The resurrection never happened and Christianity is false.

        • Al

          If the resurrection never happened then why didn’t the authorities in the 1st century demonstrate this? That would have ended Christianity right there.

          BTW- You did not show Greenleaf to be wrong.

        • RowanVT

          “Authorities” in the 1st century still thought that bugs spontaneously came into being.

          They also thought the gods caused lightning and earthquakes.

        • hector_jones

          In the first century the authorities were barely even aware of the claims about Jesus. They were too trivial to matter. Later, they tried to shut Christianity down, which seems to me to be pretty solid evidence that they didn’t think too highly of Christianity.

          Or maybe they did thoroughly debunk it and the records are now lost. That argument was good enough for you when you couldn’t explain missing evidence from that time period for your religion, so it ought to be good enough for me.

          You might as well ask why Obama doesn’t spend each day debunking the National Enquirer. Is that your test for whether a religion is true? Because the authorities didn’t take the time to carefully debunk it?

          Did you read my comment from Sunday about Greenleaf’s book? I clearly laid out 5 solid points for why he is wrong. You haven’t actually responded to any of them. Show me how I’m wrong. And there are other points against Greenleaf that I didn’t even get to.

          So why don’t you Christians bring a case and prove to the world that your religion is true? Why won’t you answer this question? You are evading it.

        • Pofarmer

          Simon Greenleaf, for whatever reason, became an apologist. He may or may not have been a great jurist. He has only had one(evangelical) law school named after him. He is primarily known today for his apologetic, not his law. And, I’ll say it again, he was writing in the 1850’s, before much of the historical criticisms of the NT were even thought about. Would he hold the same opinions today? Who knows. Thomas Paine called it heresay a century before.

        • hector_jones

          There’s absolutely no doubt that the bible is hearsay. That’s not even up for debate.

          The actual rule of law under discussion is the ancient document exception to the rule against hearsay. Hearsay is, as a rule, inadmissible, but in some instances an exception is made for ancient documents, if they can meet certain tests. The bible doesn’t meet these tests and so would never be admitted as an ancient document that is an exception to the rule against hearsay. It’s been 160 years since Greenleaf’s book and Christians still haven’t brought their case to court, because, among other reasons, their evidence would not be admissible.

        • Kodie

          Is your brain broken?

        • Al

          Are you on drugs?

        • Pofarmer

          Damaged as a child?

        • adam

          I have already given the Baal fire test a try.

          IF god exists, surely it knows what it would take to convince me.
          .
          What is the BEST evidence that you’ve got?

        • Al

          What kind of evidence do you need? God may know, but I don’t,

        • RowanVT

          If God knows, but won’t provide that evidence for us, doesn’t that make him evil?

        • Al

          He has given you plenty of evidence in creation and made it evident in you. It is you who is evil by suppressing this knowledge.

        • adam

          ad hominem noted.

          There are MANY creation stories from MANY gods that make the same CLAIM.
          Demonstrate that YOUR creation story is TRUE.

        • Al

          How do I do that? What would you find convincing?

        • RowanVT

          Start offering things, and see if they work.

          Oh, but that would require *effort* on your part and knowledge of your own holy text. I mean, honestly, how is it that you didn’t know about Lot offering his daughters up for gang rape? Have you even read the *entire* bible or do you stick to the gospels and very select verses from the rest of it?

        • Al

          I just corrected you on Lot.

        • RowanVT

          I just schooled your correction, because I actually read the texts. 😀

        • adam

          MAGIC
          The only thing unique about your god is MAGIC.

          Demonstrate how your gods magic works.

        • RowanVT

          I was a believer, you know. But I read the bible, and the God I saw there was a monster so I couldn’t follow him even though I still believed in a higher power. So I went in search for a deity that deserved worship and found none, so I went generic pagan for a while which slid into agnostic and finally I landed upon atheism because of a lack of evidence for any sort of supreme being.

          If God is omniscient, then he knew before I was born that this would happen and he let me be born. If God was actually loving, and didn’t want us to go to hell, he would give me the sort of evidence that would make me believe. But the evidence isn’t there, so either he doesn’t exist, or he is evil and likes to light people on fire.

          Considering this is the same deity who drowned babies and murdered babies after removing free will from the leader of a country and who was okay with a guy offering his daughters for gang rape and sent bears to kill 42 kids who made fun of a prophet and didn’t stop a man from sacrificing his daughter as a burnt offering and who ordered the capture of virgin girls after slaughtering their entire town and then their forced marriage and subsequent rapes…. I’d say he probably is the sort to take delight in suffering and thus it’s a damn good thing he doesn’t exist because he actually embodies evil and is a horrible being who needs to be opposed, not worshipped.

          But he doesn’t exist, and the uncaring universe is a much better option.

        • adam

          “If God is omniscient, then he knew before I was born that this would happen and he let me be born.”

          Worse than that, IF god is omniscient he FORCED you to be born, ALL-KNOWING you would reject it, and it WOULD torture you MERCILESSLY for ETERNITY..

        • RowanVT

          Yup. If he didn’t want me to be in Hell, but didn’t want to provide the evidence he could have caused a simple miscarriage.

        • adam

          The CRUELEST of them all.

        • Al

          He could have but didn’t,

        • RowanVT

          Because, if he exists, then he is an asshole who wants to light me on fire forever.

          You are the follower of a bad deity, and are a bad person, and you should feel bad.

        • Al

          Actually you are the one that is breaking His law and you expect Him to ignore it. It is you who wants His wrath.

        • RowanVT

          Then he is an asshole. His law is capricious and horrible.

          You are a bad person, and you should feel bad.

        • Kodie

          That’s a marketing tactic. You believe that and think that threatening us will persuade us. But really it’s working on you more than me. You have a perspective of atheism that it’s sad or meaningless and dooms us to a fantastical place called hell. Wow, scary. You’re an adult, right? It’s meant more to keep you in fear than sell an atheist that it’s true.

        • Al

          Did you ever sit down with someone more knowledgeable than yourself on the issues you had with the Bible and God? Theologians have dealt with these issues for centuries.

          The way you describe some of the horrible events in the Scripture makes me think you are not looking at it deep enough. .

          It is not God’s desire to send anyone to hell. If He did, He would not have sent Christ into the world to defeat evil and die for sin. He would not have sent Christ to offer eternal life to those who would believe in Him.

          Let me give you a suggestion. Read the gospel of John. Since Christ came to reveal God to the world this would be a good place to start. See if He is the kind of God that doesn’t care and takes delight in suffering.

          If you are ever interested in discussing these things privately, let me know.

        • RowanVT

          Of course I sat down with someone. My religion instructor in highschool did not have any satisfactory answers (just as you don’t), not did the priest.

          How deep am I supposed to look into a guy offering his DAUGHTER FOR GANG RAPE?

          How deep am I supposed to look into God telling his armies to CAPTURE VIRGIN GIRLS FOR SEX SLAVES?

          How deep am I supposed to look into God TAKING FREE WILL FROM SOMEONE IN ORDER TO TORTURE HIS SUBJECTS?

          There is no “oh, but you see” that can justify that. NOTHING can justify rape, offering up for rape, or taking captives to rape. NOTHING. If you think there is, you are a terrible human being.

          And if God didn’t want to send me to hell, he would have prevented me from existing. If he exists, being omniscient, he knows EXACTLY what would let me be ‘saved’, but he CHOOSES to withhold it, so he is choosing to light me on fire forever. Your God is a monster and you are defending him.

          You are a bad person, and you should feel bad.

        • Al

          Ok. Give me the context for the gang rape and show me that it was God Who commanded it.

          Show me book-chapter-verse that “God telling his armies to CAPTURE VIRGIN GIRLS FOR SEX SLAVES”.

          Show me book-chapter-verse that “God TAKING FREE WILL FROM SOMEONE IN ORDER TO TORTURE HIS SUBJECTS”.

          God can send anyone to hell if He wants to. You may think He is a monster but in the judgement He will hold you accountable for your life. You will have power to overcome Him and what He decrees.

        • RowanVT

          God rescued Lot after Lot offered up his daughters to be gang raped by the crowd. He was the only one from the city saved.

          God being totes okay with and/or ordering the capture of girls:

          Deuteronomy 20:10-14

          Numbers 31:7-18

          Deuteronomy 21:10-14

          Zechariah 14:1-2

          God’s rule for selling your daughter as a sex slave-

          Exodus 21:7-11

          God removing free will:

          Exodus 4:21

        • Al

          Your ignorance is showing. God did not rescue Lot. It was the angels. God did not command Lot to give his daughters up to the crowd.

        • RowanVT

          So now angels act independently from God’s will? Fascinating… wasn’t there an angel that did that and was cast out of heaven or something?

          And I never said god commanded *Lot* to offer up his daughters, but he did. And HE was chosen to be saved. So God, who sent the angels to look for righteous men, allowed Lot to live.

          Read Genesis 18 and 19, to see that God ordered the angels there and that Lot was seen as the only righteous person worth saving.

          Stop being an idiot about your holy book.

        • RowanVT

          I note that you have no comment on the other verses I offered about capturing girls to be sex slaves, and god’s own law for how to sell your daughter as a sex slave, and no comment on god actively hardening pharoah’s heart so that he could murder babies later…

        • Kodie

          Then god can get rid of the system where anyone goes to hell. What is he afraid of?

        • Kodie

          Or maybe just not as gullible, credulous, and childish as you.

        • Pofarmer

          Just absent. Maybe he’s busy.

        • adam

          What is the BEST evidence that YOU’VE got?

        • adam

          Dont you have a ‘personal relationship’ with your god?

          Can’t he relay that information THROUGH you, since he cant seem to contact me with it.

        • Pofarmer

          Al, there is a very, very easy counterargument against it. You just don’t accept it. But we have evidence for our knowledge that religious claims don’t have to be provable or true to generate a following. Look at Mormonism. Look at scientology, look at The Branch Davidians, look at dianetics, among just a few. There is a reason this argument you are trying to make isn’t convincing.

        • Al

          Give me your counterargument against the resurrection that includes all the details of it. When you do that then we can test it to see if it really does refute it.

        • Pofarmer

          You said it yourself. People don’t rise from the dead. There are a host of rising God stories from the mythology of the area. Is it a coincidence Christmas is on the winter solstice? So, it certainly looks like any other myth from that time and place. Second. Paul doesn’t know anything about an earthly resurrection. He doesn’t know about any miracles. He doesn’t list any places. This makes Mark, and the later Gospels, look very much like Euhemerizations of the figure from Paul. Add to that, all, or nearly all, of the miracles and actions of Jesus were either reboots of OT miracles or copies of Greek mythology from the time. Greg G. could give you a comprehensive list. Randal Helms is a great place to start. Richard Pervo wrote a good book on Acts. Acts looks like history, but it isn’t history. The bible clearly says certain things will happen. Jesus will come back in the very near future, his followers will be able to do greater miracles than he did, etc, etc. So, when it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I conclude it’s a duck, and this duck is fiction, possibly total myth.

        • Al

          If rising from the dead was common it would not be a miracle.

          Do you have from pagan sources of ” rising God stories from the mythology”? This has been claimed a lot by skeptics but they don’t support it from the source of documents for these religions. Maybe you can.

          Paul certainly does know of the historical Jesus and what He did. He knew the apostles personally where he would have heard of all that Christ had done. He saw the risen Christ and preached the resurrection which was Christ’s greatest miracle. Evidently he did need to mention the miracles of Christ in the letters we have. He may have in others that we don’t.

          The problem you are having is that you are reading skeptics instead of the sources for Christianity i.e. the NT. When you do this, then you should be very skeptical of these skeptics. They make their assertions sound like facts when all they have is mere opinion.

          I remember listening to Ehrman on a program make some claims about the gospels and other writings that he thought were not written by the authors we know. All he offered for his position was speculations and no facts. This is what you need to be careful with. If you don’t, you will find your faith stripped away.

        • adam

          Miracles are either deception or MAGIC….

        • Al

          How would you know that miracles are impossible?

        • adam

          I dont know that they are ‘impossible’ just not demonstrated.
          There is AGAIN, insufficient evidence for miracles.

          Can YOU demonstrate any REAL miracles?

        • hector_jones

          Or imagined or made up.

        • Pofarmer

          Isis and Osiris, for one. Hercules coming back from Hades. Mithras was a rising sun cult. Robert M. Price lists several others. Paul had a vision of the risen christ. Much like people have visions of all sorts of things. Ehrman is not speculating. Ehrman, believe it or not, generally represents the consensus of scholars. It only sounds far fetched because you are reading apologists, not scholars.

        • Dionysus rose from the dead. I’d encourage you to look it up on this blog for more information, but I know that makes you feel icky, so I won’t.

        • Kodie

          “A man did not resurrect” is not exactly an extraordinary claim. Can you at least believe A MAN did not resurrect? Like if I said… Jesse Owens did not resurrect. How much proof would I have to show you for you to believe me?

        • RowanVT

          But you haven’t PROVED he rose from the dead at all. All you have is stories that it was so… and conflicts on what was found at the tomb and who found it. A more likely explanation is that his body was stolen away and his followers spread the false story of his resurrection. All you have is their word for it that it happened at all. To believe that, without any outside evidence, is to be extremely gullible.

          I have a pet dragon. I have drawn him many times, showing how adorable he is. He’s camera shy so all I have is drawings, just like all I have is drawings of the hummingbird I once tried to save. I have many people who will vouch that I have this pet dragon.

        • Al

          How could the disciples steal the body if there were Roman guards guarding the tomb? That’s one problem. You also have over 500 people who saw Him also. Mass hallucinations won’t work either. Then you have many of those who went to their deaths believing He did rise. If they stole the body why would they do that?

          Someone told me awhile back they had fairies in their backyard. Now you tell me you have a pet dragon. Why don’t you upload a picture of it here then we can start our investigation here and see if you really do or you are just lying.

        • adam

          Prove that there were Roman guards.

          ONE report of 500 is not 500 witnesses.

        • Al

          If I mention that 5000 saw a baseball game do I have to mention the names? If someone reads this report 300 years from now will they discount it and say I was lying because I didn’t mention the names?

          When Paul wrote to the Corinthians in the 1st century some in his audience would have known some of the 500 witnesses.

        • RowanVT

          Baseball is common, and proven to be real via outside evidence, such as videos of the game. Thus, that claim is not exceptional.

          You are claiming something extraordinary, but your proof so far is some dudes saying that this really totally happened honest and you should believe them, really.

          p.s.

          Do you still really believe that mammals are birds?

        • Al

          What are the characteristics of extraordinary?

        • RowanVT

          I’d say things like coming back to life after 3 days would be such. Or an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving deity. Or an invisible jewish zombie.

          Not extraordinary: apples, cats, cars, blankets, dirt, birds, nail clippers, paper, pens, walking, etc.

        • Al

          This doesn’t answer the question. I want to know what the characteristics are for something that is extraordinary.

        • RowanVT

          I gave you concrete examples.

          Zombies. Gods that are perfect. Resurrections. Unicorns. Things that fall up. Flying cows. Talking donkeys.

        • adam

          Doesnt matter, it is not 500 witnesses, but ONE report of 500.

          In an ORAL story, thing get exaggerated naturally to have the EFFECT that the story teller intends.

        • Al

          Are you saying that no one saw the risen Christ? Just because we have just one written report about 500 seeing the risen Christ does not mean they didn’t. You need to do a lot better to refute this than asserting its exaggerated. For this assertion to be true you would have to know how many did see Him. That you don’t know,

        • RowanVT

          So, I have written that I have a dragon. Thousands have seen my drawings of Bob. You are now, per yourself, required to believe that I have a dragon. You have as much proof from me as the gospels provide.

        • Al

          You have given no proof for your dragon. I’m beginning to think you are lying.

        • RowanVT

          I gave you as much proof as the gospels give. Are you saying that your gospel is now lying? You’re going to HELL!

        • Pofarmer

          Al, you have ine piece of evidence for the 500, it is never mentioned again. Not by Paul, not in the Gospels. It was a throw away exageration, probably, and probably an interpolation.

        • adam

          As you’ve said yourself, people dont rise from the dead.
          The STORY is a MYTH…intended for a PURPOSE, a POLITICAL purpose….

        • Al

          No. Its not a myth. Here is what the great C. S. Lewis said about the gospels:

          “All I am in private life is a literary critic and historian, that’s my job. And I am prepared to say on that basis if anyone thinks the Gospels are either legend or novels, then that person is simply showing his incompetence as a literary critic. I’ve read a great many novels and I know a fair amount about the legends that grew up among early people, and I know perfectly well the Gospels are not that kind of stuff” (C.S. Lewis, Christian Reflections, 209)

        • adam

          Why should I care what CS Lewis thought he new or not.
          It doesnt change that it is myth

          myth
          miTH/
          noun
          noun: myth; plural noun: myths
          1.
          a
          traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a
          people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically
          involving supernatural beings or events.
          synonyms:folk tale, folk story, legend, tale, story, fable, saga, mythos, lore, folklore, mythology More
          “ancient Greek myths”
          traditional stories or legends collectively.
          “the heroes of Greek myth”
          2.
          a widely held but false belief or idea.

          Or the fact that it was and is politicized.

        • Al

          Lewis was an expert in ancient literature and myths. He clearly states that the gospels are not myths. In fact he states that those who claim that they are myths showing incompetence.

        • RowanVT

          Because, as a believer, he’s not biased at all, nor does he have a vested interest in whether it is myth or truth….

        • adam

          Appeal to Authority
          God of the Gaps
          And CS Lewis’s ad hominems

          Do you have any REAL evidence of your god?

        • Kodie

          And why do you trust that Lewis knows what he’s talking about? He claims to be an authority, and then trust me, I know what I’m talking about, but how do you know he knows what he’s talking about? He’s saying the same thing as 1 Corinthians 15 that you quoted a couple times already: I’m an authority on the matter, I am telling you to trust me.

          So you just do? How is that different than putting on a lab coat, in essence? You don’t believe someone just because they’re wearing a lab coat, you said, and you think that’s all there is to scientific authority. There is nothing like peer-review in biblical scholarship. It’s all interpretation, and repackaging previous interpretations for a new audience.

        • Who’s on first!

        • Pofarmer

          There is quite a lot of evidence the 500 is interpolation. At any rate, it’s never mentioned again. We also have no record of any of the 500 saying, well, anything.

        • RowanVT

          The guards were only mentioned in a single gospel. Isn’t that strange? Why wouldn’t the other 3 mention guards? If it’s odd-one-out, doesn’t that mean it’s probably inaccurate? That one was also the only one to mention an earthquake. Man, Matthew must be a really inaccurate gospel then.

          Did the drawing I did of my darling not go through for you? Here I’ll submit another one.

        • Al

          No. Each author gives different details. Tell you what. Read 4 accounts of 911 and see if they all mention the same details. What you will find is that they don’t.

        • RowanVT

          All 911 calls are recorded and transcribed, and the recorded calls are kept. O_o

          Or do you mean 9/11 for which we have video recordings of the planes flying into the buildings, in which case we have independent verification that it actually happened?

        • Al

          4 accounts about 911 from 4 different reporters. Do all the reports say the same things on everything?

        • RowanVT

          Are you talking about the emergency number, which is 911? Or are you talking about the events that happened on 9/11? There’s an important difference in those two groups of numbers that clarify which you talk about.

          If the reports get basic facts wrong, they are not reliable even if they get stuff right. If one reporter says the buildings collapsed without planes hitting them, but mentions everything else correctly, that reporter is still unreliable.

        • Al

          About the 911 terrorist attack. Do all the reporters have to mention all the details?

        • RowanVT

          They should all have the major ones. I’d say a huge earthquake at the time of Jesus’ death warrants as much, if not more, mention of a veil tearing, don’t you?

          I’d also think that the number of people seen by the women/woman at the tomb would be important. Why, again, does only ONE gospel mention guards but the others omit them entirely?

        • Kodie

          Hey dipshit, journalists, reputable ones, have this thing called fact-checking. They can have perspectives but now maybe we are going to a journalistic category called commentary and not really reporting facts. Facts are facts, and if it can’t be checked, it doesn’t make the news.

        • Pofarmer

          Yeah, but all 911 stories aren’t from the same perspective. What you have with the gospels, is two authors extensively changing Mark, and a fourth author espousing predominantly Greek theology.

        • Al

          The gospels are not from the same perspectives either. They are 4 different perspectives.

        • Pofarmer

          What different perspectives do they represent. W

        • hector_jones

          So truth can have perspectives? Interesting.

        • Four accounts of an accident or crime that everyone agreed happened? How does that compare with four gospel accounts of something that everyone agrees never happens?

        • Wait … how could you have a drawing of something that doesn’t exist? That would be as crazy as a story about someone who didn’t exist!

          I’m sold! Let me know when you have pups. I want one.

        • Roman guards? Show that that’s history.

          500 eyewitnesses? The gospels tell us that that is useless evidence since they don’t use it.

          We’ve been over this. We’ve been over pretty much everything. But I guess a shit argument is better than no argument when you’re doing the Lord’s work?

        • adam

          Of course the resurrection has NOT been proved.

          And neither has MAGIC…….

        • hector_jones

          The natural explanation is that it’s a myth and never happened.

        • Al

          This is why it is a miracle i.e. a work of God because the natural explanation fails to explain it.

        • Kodie

          Are you Jenna Black?

        • Pofarmer

          Dumb enough. Repetitive enough, thoughtless enough.

        • Kodie

          This particular misapprehension.

        • MNb

          Nah, because of small differences I stick to the hypothesis that they all use the same sources for their “arguments”. But I admit it’s suspect that they all admire the Great Greenleaf.

        • Pofarmer

          So, Al, you’ve failed to show that the ressurection accounts are not just stories. You’ve also failed to show why the start of christianity would be different that Mormonism, Scientology, dianetics, etc. care to comment?

        • Al

          I haven’t failed. You have failed to grasp the argument.

        • MNb

          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          Yes, that’s what all bigots say when their “argument” is busted.

        • Pofarmer

          What have I failed to grasp?

        • hector_jones

          So you believe all other myths are really true too, since the natural explanation fails to explain them?

        • Hmm. Let me just search for that.

          OK–I scroll up to the Search field on the right side … type in “resurrection” … oh–look at that. There are posts here that slap Al’s argument silly. Whaddya know.

          Scholarly Consensus for the Resurrection?

          Responding to the Minimal Facts Argument for the Resurrection

          So How Does an ATHEIST Explain the Resurrection Story?

        • Kodie

          Mnb has as much proof that there are fairies in his garden and make his flowers grow and given this proof as you do or have provided us for your god. Why are you such a doubter? Where is your evidence for the nonexistence of these fairies?

          #2, you don’t know do you, do you??????

        • Al

          Mnb just admitted he lied about the fairies.

        • MNb

          That’s because I’m honest and you aren’t. So the only reason you accept the Resurrection is because you won’t admit that you’re a liar (eventually in disguise). Yup, excellent methodology.
          You like to fall in every single trap set for you, don’t you?

        • Kodie

          I guess that is damning evidence then. We don’t have anyone admitting the bible is a work of fiction, therefore it’s not a work of fiction? I said you don’t seem to know how this works, and we’re still waiting for your answer to #2. If it’s too complex for you, that’s a copout. We need you to answer the question, just answer the question, Claire.

          (Hint: Your answer can be “I don’t know” – that is an acceptable and reasonable answer).

        • MNb

          Selfrespect. Political importance. Power. A safe and cozy social environment. You name it.

        • Lying is unusual? I think it’s more commonplace than the supernatural.

    • Convince me that the original hearers saw things your way. If you’re simply saying that smart theologians have a modern spin that allows them to preserve their presuppositions, I agree with that.

      Why did God have to do anything to Pharaoh if he was going to do bad things anyway?

      It’s kind of hard to get away from the “there are those standing here” bit meaning exactly that.

      • Al

        How do you go about to understand what an ancient author meant by what he wrote?

        Not sure what you mean by “Why did God have to do anything to Pharaoh if he was going to do bad things anyway?”

        • God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. So Pharaoh was about to do the right thing … but God must step in and prevent that?

          Kinda makes God to be the dick in that story.

        • Al

          Your not only bad with science but theology to.

        • Pofarmer

          At least he can read.

        • RowanVT

          No… he is taking the bible for it’s own words. Pharoah says he’ll let them go, then God hardens his heart (removing free will, isn’t that nice) and makes him change his mind. All so that he can visit torment on an entire nation, culminating in the death of children and infants. What a kind, benevolent deity that isn’t.

        • Pofarmer

          First off, God hardened Pharoahs heart so he would not let the Israelites go.

          Second off, when modern Scholars translate the bible, they try to take into account what the context of the Ancient Authors was, and write it so it relates to modern audiences. That’s kind of the point of doing the translations.

    • smrnda

      If death can mean any number of things, then it is not a precisely defined term. Then, the claims made are no longer false, they are no longer precise enough to have a truth value.

    • Blizzard

      Your exegesis is terrible.

      It’s just not contrived enough. Everybody contrive harder lol.

  • Zaphod

    I tend to go a little more direct on this: God being unable to lie is just one more unprovable claim. You cannot prove a negative like this one, even if god was real and he wrote infallible and perfectly true scripture, that wouldn’t prove that god cannot lie. All it would demonstrate is that this god character hasn’t lied YET.

    I used to ask theists that told me that the devil was deceiving me how they could know that the devil wasn’t deceiving THEM into believing that he (the devil) was god. You know, since you concede to the existence of a deceiving being capable of such powerful deceits, usually on par with what they believe god can do.

    Never seem to get a clear answer in that regard.

    • Al

      How you do you know that atheism is true?

      • MNb

        Because theism doesn’t make sense, as for instance you show over and over again.

      • RowanVT

        There is no actual evidence for a deity. Everything that happens can function that way without a supreme being. If the universe-sans-deity looks the same as universe-con-deity, why assume that the deity must exist? There’s no evidence for any sort of deity and plenty of evidence against specific gods.

        Thus, I am an atheist because I see no reason to believe in a deity.

        Don’t try trotting out pascal’s wager. That thing is so easily debunked it’s just pathetic.

      • Zaphod

        The same way I know left-handedness is true.

      • anon

        Atheism is simply non-belief in a deity or deities. Demanding it be categorized into one of either true/false doesn’t make any sense.

        • Al

          The atheist bears the burden of proof for atheism being true. So far I have not seen any.

        • JT Rager

          Atheism is not a true or false claim. Atheism cannot be true or false.

        • Atheism is not a true or false claim.

          There is no God isn’t a truth claim?

        • Ron

          Atheism – disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

          IOW, atheism only addresses one thing: whether or not you believe gods exist. Saying “I don’t believe in gods” is not the equivalent of saying “there is no god” (although some atheists do go on to make that claim).

          So atheism is “true” only to the extent that there are people in the world who lack belief in gods.

        • Saying “I don’t believe in gods” is not the equivalent of saying “there is no god”

          That looks like a distinction without a difference to me. Saying “I don’t believe in gods” may be more explicitly asserting that new evidence could change my belief, but it’s still affirming that at this point, I see no reason to believe that there’s a god; ergo, “There is no god.”

          If I said “I don’t believe there’s a horse in the conference room,” I’m essentially saying “There’s no horse in the conference room.” New evidence could change my belief, but I can’t get around the fact that I’m making a truth claim of some sort.

          So atheism is “true” only to the extent that there are people in the world who lack belief in gods.

          Well, okay. But in that case, is Christianity “true” to the extent that people believe in the Christian God, whether or not that god actually exists?

        • Pofarmer

          Atheism is just a negative claim. “I don’t think there is enough evidence for a God or Gods.” That implies that the evidence that theists give is not sufficient, it does nit imply that you have some super dooper evidence that there is no God. You can’t generally prove a negative, after all. What the theist wants the Atheist to do, in principal, is dispute all of theisms claims. This, generally, isn’t going to happen, and, even if you sat down and did it, would still not make atheism “true”, just the most likely answer among the possibilities laid out.

        • You can’t generally prove a negative, after all.

          Except when you can. I say square circles don’t exist, because a two-dimensional object cannot be a square and a circle simultaneously. If I say there’s no horse in the conference room, not seeing a horse in the room proves the validity of my claim.

        • Pofarmer

          Yeah, but in the case of the horse, you could then make the statement, “the conference room contains no horse”. Which you could then defend. If you make the statement “There is no God”. Then that is a positive claim that you have to defend, which I believe you CAN successfully do. If you make the statement “. I don’t believe there is sufficient evidence for God”. , then that is a different claim. The defense to that claim is simply “show me,”. Which would be much like the response to your claim ” I don’t BELIEVE there’s a horse in the conference room.” It’s then up to the person who claims there is to put up or shut up.

        • adam

          Perhaps this is the claim we should make.

          “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

          …Stephen F Roberts

        • Pofarmer

          I’ve pointed that out to Christians both on line and in person. Most aren’t willing to be that introspective.

        • adam

          Propaganda is very difficult to overcome with ignorance.

        • MNb

          I think every atheist should decide for him/herself. AfaIc “to believe” doesn’t apply, because it implies faith and I don’t have any. But I’m ready to maintain that I’m convinced there is no god – I’m a 7 on the scale of Dawkins.

        • InDogITrust

          Atheists have faith. We have faith that there is no god. That’s why we don’t worry about going to hell.
          I think people who call themselves agnostic are usually atheists who don’t have enough faith in their belief to stand upon it.

        • MNb

          Nope. I don’t have any faith. I don’t have faith there is a god. I do have two strong arguments there can’t be a god. That’s why I call myself a 7 on the scale of Dawkins.
          Don’t tell me what I have and what I don’t have. It makes you look like a jerk, something you aren’t.

        • JT Rager

          It’s the difference between “I believe there isn’t a god” and “I don’t believe there is a god”. It’s the difference between stating “there isn’t a god”, and saying “I don’t believe you” when a Christian says there is.

          My favorite analogy is Matt Dillahunty’s gumball analogy. If I had a giant jar of gumballs, there could be either an even or odd amount of gumballs. This is a large amount of gumballs so you can’t be sure what the number is. If I just said “There are an even number of gumballs”, you could tell me “I don’t believe you”. That doesn’t mean that you think the number of gumballs is odd, you just aren’t convinced that it’s even.

          Same thing with atheism. You can say “My god exists” and due to lack of evidence I will say “I don’t believe you”. That does not mean I think a god doesn’t exist, I just don’t believe you that a god does exist.

        • Ron

          The major difference is that horses have clearly-defined physical properties and characteristics allowing you to make such a determination, whereas god(s) usually do not. In fact, theists frequently describe their god as some immaterial, ineffable, and unknowable being—traits which make it impossible to even test for their existence.

        • Bingo. The fact that religious people are using symbolic language makes it really difficult to determine exactly what it is we’re discussing. Is it a being that created everything in the universe? Is it the concept of agency in a seemingly random world? Is it the spirit of Love? Who knows.

        • InDogITrust

          It might not make a difference to you, but there is a difference and it’s a difference that matters. Sloppy use of language does not change that fact.

          Maybe one can get away with sloppiness in casual conversation, but not in logic, mathematics, the law, science, philosophy.

          If you were on the witness stand, and testified, “I don’t believe there was a horse in the conference room,” the examining attorney would ask you, did you go into the conference room to look? You didn’t? So you, don’t actually *know* whether or not a horse was in the conference room, do you?
          If the next witness testified “there was no horse in the conference room,” the attorney would ask, how do you know?, and the witness would have to tell why he *knows* that. Perhaps he went in the conference room and saw that there was no horse.

        • It might not make a difference to you, but there is a difference and it’s a difference that matters.

          It’s not as if you described any relevant difference. We’re talking about how well our beliefs jibe with reality. Whatever words I use, I’m affirming a position on the reality of a horse in the conference room; whatever words I use, it’s implicit that the statements I make about the reality of a horse in the conference room constitute my beliefs about reality.

          I may just think it’s unlikely that a horse could be in said conference room, I may have just been in the conference room and didn’t see a horse, or I may think it’s unlikely that a horse entered the conference room between the time that I left the conference room and the time that I made the statement. In any case, I’m making statements describing my beliefs about reality. I disagree with the notion that there’s some sort of essential difference between my making a statement about reality and explicitly affirming that my statement about reality is a belief.

        • Kodie

          It is an important difference. If someone is saying there is a god, and we ask them how they know, because we can’t see it, and they run all their illogical arguments as evidence and knowledge, then we have reason to not believe there’s a god. If there’s a horse in the conference room, and I ask you to show it to me, but you haven’t seen the horse, you heard about it from someone else, then I’m going to need more. If you claimed there was a table and a chair and a pen and a display easel in the conference room, I would not say “prove it.” I’m familiar enough with the environment to believe common elements of a conference room, which a horse is not. If someone told you a convincing story about the horse in the conference room, but you didn’t see it, I’m not going to be as convinced. If you say you saw it too, but it was really a painting of a horse, and you don’t tell me you’re talking about a painting, I’m not going to believe you either until I see it.

          This is pretty much what we’re talking about regarding god. You’re talking about a painting of a horse but leaving that part out. You have a personal experience with something and recognize it as a horse, so would I but it’s just a picture. Maybe you met a man and he was huge like a horse, or had a face like a horse, or when he sneezed, he sounded just like a horse. Still not a horse. When you call that a horse, I have to argue with you that that’s not a horse either.

          And just maybe someone had a horse brought into the conference room, and it really was there, but it’s not there anymore. Maybe you’re right and I’m wrong, there was a horse in the conference room. I say well it’s not there now. And you swear it was, and I just don’t find your testimony convincing. God remains hidden if he’s real. He makes a liar out of you for saying he’s there, you just have to convince yourself to see him where he is not there, and call that god. Your personal testimony is feelings and experiences you cannot demonstrate objectively. It felt like it was god, but how can you be sure that’s what it was? Christians and other theists tend to be pretty certain their ordinary experiences and coincidences they notice count as evidence for god, and while I might share or recognize these experiences, I do not call them god. I think that’s a huge leap, and I’m not taking it. So I don’t see god, and you can’t tell me enough about him or show me so I have no reason to believe in god. If he cares that much, he’d make himself unmistakeable, and until then, I think all the theists are just mistaken.

        • Al

          It sure is a claim and if true has evidence for it.

        • JT Rager

          The only claim that atheism makes is that there are people who are not convinced that a god exists. And you’re right, there is plenty of evidence for that.

        • Al

          That claim needs to be support though otherwise its mere opinion which carries no weight.

        • adam

          I am not convinced that a god exists.

        • Al

          Are you convinced that black holes exist or that the speed of light is 186,282 mps?

        • MNb

          Yes, because these things can be observed and if I take the effort and spend the money I can do it myself. This does not apply to god by your very own definition.
          Black holes and light belong to our material reality. Your god by definition doesn’t. So your questions do not make sense. Even you should understand that. But I already know that you are (fill in an abusive term of six letters that begins with an s and ends with a d).

        • Viking Pagan

          I feel like Al is using the term “god” to fill in the blanks for things that he doesn’t understand. Where do black holes come from? God. Why is the speed of light x/mps? God. Why do we have preconceived notions of justice (cultural), and feelings of love? God. His belief system has its own internal fact check system, which always computes, “God”. And suddenly, belief becomes fact! Pretty convenient.

        • MNb

          There is a lot that Al doesn’t understand.

        • Al

          That’s your problem. Your feeling instead of thinking. Since Adam is not convinced that God exist then on what basis does he believe black holes exist since he nor anyone has seen one?

        • Viking Pagan

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/first-image-black-hole-blackholecam_n_4465223.html

          I’d say that there is a copious amount of empirical evidence that black holes exist. Fact based on evidence. That is what atheism is, not supporting a system of faith that has no supporting evidence, other than an ancient document that has withstood numerous interpretations and revision of a multitude of second hand recounts of events that can not be taken literally, (Burning bushes, talking snakes, Adam’s rib creating Eve). We know these things not to be true, so its metaphorical. But so is the rest. It is faith based, founded on beliefs reliant on feelings, “How does love exist without god?”

          What basis do you have that god exists? Can you refer me to a god camera project? I’ve just linked to an article detailing how astrophysicists intend to photograph a black hole.

        • Kodie

          Scientific documentation. And not for nothing, a black hole isn’t going to get mad because you want to touch yourself. I haven’t read the documentation on black holes because it’s not something that matters to me. It’s not a superstition like god is.

        • Al

          You have never observed a black hole nor the speed of light.

        • smrnda

          the speed of light is something that can be calculated, much in the way that if you wanted to, you could try to figure out what temperate the boiling point of water was.

        • Al

          That may be but no one has seen light traveling nor a black hole and yet many people believe in these things.

        • MNb

          “no one has seen light traveling nor a black hole.”
          Six letters, first one an s, last one a d. Hint: fourth letter a p.

          http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/black-holes/

          “We can, however, infer the presence of black holes and study them by detecting their effect on other matter nearby.”

          Your god being immaterial by definition can’t have any effect on other matter, because he doesn’t have the means.

          http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/waves_particles/lightspeed_evidence.html

          Measuring is a way of observing. Good luck measuring your immaterial god.

        • Greg G.

          The only thing you see is light traveling.

        • Al

          That is not really true.

        • Greg G.

          When you see something, it is only because light has traveled from the something. The light interacts with pigments in the nerves in your eye. If the light didn’t travel, how did it get there?

          We can generate mental images and say that we “see” them but it’s a different meaning of the word.

        • RowanVT

          Oh good grief, don’t tell me you subscribe to that ridiculous old idea that our eyes emit things that allow us to see……

        • Pofarmer

          I haven’;t ever directly observed radio waves either, or X-rays, or Gamma rays or dozens of other things that we know to exist.

        • MNb

          Six letters, first one an s, last one a d. What did I just write?

          “these things can be observed and if I take the effort and spend the money I can do it myself. This does not apply to god by your very own definition.”

        • What do you conclude from that?

        • Kodie

          I don’t know how my computer works, but I don’t think it’s a magical device from god that only works because he made it so.

        • Al

          If God had not created the universe in the way that it is there would be no computer. If the fundamental laws of nature were slightly different we would not be here or have computers.

        • Kodie

          You’re saying two different things.

        • adam

          Shiva created the universe for COMPUTERS?

          What does Shiva need with computers?

        • Al

          You tell me.

        • adam

          Shiva is God to billions.

          What does a ‘god’ create a universe for computers?

        • RowanVT

          If the laws of nature were slightly different… there would be species arguing that those conditions are required for life, and how they would not be there or have whatever, if they were different.

        • Pofarmer

          sean Carroll argues the opposite. That there is a fairly wide window in which life could have developed. At any rate, you are just making yet another God of the Gaps argument. We are the way we are because the universe is the way it is. Not the other way around.

        • Why God? Why not Shiva or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

        • MNb

          That applies to your belief system as well. There is no support of it. Every single attempt of yours has failed. If you took yourself seriously you would call yourself an agnost.

        • Al

          No. I am, appealing to something that is above and beyond myself. I am making claims that could be falsified by atheism.

        • MNb

          No matter how often you deny it, you are making claims without support. Hence according to your own comment above yours is just an opinion which carries no weight.

        • Pofarmer

          Most of your claims are falsified by science, not Atheism. Two different things.

        • Al

          If atheism is true then Christianity is false. If Christianity is true then atheism is false.

        • adam

          Atheism says there is not sufficient evidence for Christianity.

          If you would care to provide some EVIDENCE then there could be room for debate.

        • Al

          Have you read the gospels?

        • adam

          Yes, of course, as well as the Koran, the Vedas, Tao Te Ching, Bhagavata, and others.

          What is the point?

        • Al

          The gospels are one of my pieces of evidence for the existence of God. So what did you conclude from reading the gospels assuming you have read them recently/

        • adam

          The gospels are politicized mythology.

        • Al

          Wrong. The gospels are like Greco-Roman Bios.

        • The genre is ancient biography (which is very different from modern biography). This is a far cry from history.

        • MNb

          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          Many of your cobelievers disagree.

          http://www.thinking-christianly.com/?p=609

          “But applying modern standards to first century Greco-Roman biography is anachronistic”
          Still this is exactly the mistake you stubbornly make over and over again. Instead those six points are well known among historians of Antiquity. That’s why I have told you many times that it’s his/her task to separate fact from fiction.
          See? This is why I call you an embarrassment for your own belief system.
          Now if you were willing to learn something for once – and it would be a huge exception – then we could discuss the actual content of the Gospels. It’s something atheists – including BobS – don’t do often enough (yup, BobS, that’s an unsubtle hint; I told the Hallq as well, but he isn’t very interested).
          So here is my statement: Jesus was in his time place a pretty good guy. But according to our modern standards he is far from perfect. I think higher for instance of Saint Franciscus of Assisi.

        • What topics would you like to see?

        • MNb

          One of the things liberal christians are very proud of is the content of the Sermon on the Mount. They think it awesome. According to them it shows that christianity can provide a solid basis for ethics.
          Another issue is the atonement doctrine. Recently Libby-Ann wrote about it:

          http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2014/08/there-is-more-to-christianity-than-penal-substitutionary-atonement.html

          She wrote a few things I didn’t know yet. So I haven’t been able to think it over properly. Plus I feel that there is more to it.

        • adam

          No, I am not wrong,
          But they are like Greco-Roman bios like the Illiad and The Odyessy, they have just been politicized.

          So they by proxy would be one piece of evidence for the existence of Zeus, AchilliesJust as the Spiderman comics and movies are one piece of evidence for Spiderman and his super villians.

        • Al

          Here is how scholars look at the gospels:
          ” The gospels have in common with Greco-Roman biography that they are an account of the words and deeds of an individual, in this case, Jesus. But what distinguishes a gospel from all other literature is that it is the kerygmatic record of the words and deeds of Jesus; they are different enough from ancient biography to be classified as a unique genre, contrary to D. Aune, who prefers to classify the gospel as a distinctive-type of the genre of Greco-Roman biography (The New Testament in Its Literary Environment [Philadelphia: Westminster, 1987] 17-76). The words and deeds of Jesus are not simply recounted, as in Greco-Roman biography, in order to present the ethos of a person, his or her essence or manner of life.”http://www.mycrandall.ca/courses/NewTestament/Gospels/GENRGOS.htm

        • adam

          No that is how THAT ‘scholar’ looks at the gospels with presupposition.

          I am sure that at a time ‘scholars’ looked at Homers account of Zeus in the same manner.

          Sorry, not convinced.
          Still waiting for Spidey…..

        • Al

          Then you are willfully being ignorant. Show me scholars who study in the field consider the gospels to be like ” the Illiad and The Odyessy, they have just been politicized.”
          When you do, then i will know you have a leg to stand on. If not, then you are ignorant of these things.

        • Pofarmer

          Matthew Ferguson, Randal Helms. Remsburg, Those are just three off the top of my head. There is scholarly peer reviewed literature on it. It just isn’t accepted by Apologists.

        • adam

          Politicizing the Bible: The Roots of Historical Criticism and the Secularization of Scripture 1300-1700 (Herder & Herder Books)

          And

          But onto my point. Even though there may well have been eyewitnesses alive some 35-40 years after Jesus’ death, there is no guarantee – or, I would argue, no reason to think – that any of them were consulted by the authors of the Gospels when writing their accounts. The eyewitnesses would have been Aramaic speaking peasants almost entirely from rural Galilee. Mark was a highly educated, Greek speaking Christian living in an urban area outside of Palestine (Rome?), who never traveled, probably, to Galilee. So the existence of eyewitnesses would not have much if any effect on his Gospel.

          The same is true, even more so, with the later Gospels. Luke begins his Gospel by saying that eyewitnesses started passing along the oral traditions he had heard (Luke 1:1-4), but he never indicates that he had
          ever talked to one. He has simply heard stories that had been around from the days of the eyewitnesses. And if the standard dating of his Gospel – and Matthew’s – is correct, they were writing about 50 years or
          more after Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel was even later.

          My sense is that most of the eyewitnesses (and who knows how many there were?! Hundreds? Probably not. Dozens?) had died before the Gospels were written; those that survived were carrying on their lives in rural Galilee or Jerusalem. And the Gospel writers, who never say they consulted any of them, probably never did consult with any of them.The Gospels are based on oral traditions that had been in circulation –and changed as a result – for decades before the Gospel writers had even heard them.

          And as anyone knows who has been subject to oral traditions – this would include all of us – the stories told about a person can change absolutely overnight! It happens all the time. What happens, then, to stories in circulation for 40 or 50 years, in different countries, told in different languages, among people who never laid an eye on an eyewitness or on anyone else who had? My sense is that the stories get changed, often a lot; and many of the stories simply get made up. It’s just the way it happens And it can be shown to have happened with the Gospels, since the same story is often told in very different ways. Every historian will tell you: evidence matters!

          Bart Ehrman

          Now DEMONSTRATE your god:

          When you do, then i will know you have a leg to stand on. If not, then you are ignorant of these things.

        • We know your faith won’t allow you to change. The seasons may change, but Al’s unevidenced faith will remain unmoved.

        • Pofarmer
        • RowanVT

          I concluded that there were contradictions between the accounts.

        • Pofarmer

          I concluded they read like much other Greco Roman hero literature.

        • Al

          Such as?

          Do you know that in secular writings that there are errors and yet historians don’t consider them worthless?

        • RowanVT

          This is going to take a while…

          Historians don’t consider secular writings worthless when they contain errors, because they know fallible and biased humans wrote them.

          YOU are claiming this is the word of God, the account of God. If you admit there are errors in the Bible, how can you know that what you think is true is true? What if it was added by humans later (like we know the whole “cast the first stone” was added much later…) and not actually of the will of God? You would be worshiping and believing in mankind rather than God and now you’re doomed to Hell.

          You want to use this as proof of God, a perfect, infallible being… who can’t keep the story of his own incarnation straight? The bible is proof AGAINST such a being.

          This is just from the last two chapters of the gospel. I’m not going to re-read and crosscheck the whole of the four of them because I’d be at this for days.

          KJV.

          Earthquake when Jesus died? Did the veil rip before or after he died?

          Matthew 27:51

          And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

          Yes quake, ripped after.

          Mark 15:38

          And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

          No quake, ripped after.

          Luke 23: 45-46

          And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

          And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

          No quake, veil ripped before.

          John 19:30

          When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

          No quake, and no veil mention at all.

          Then there’s the two thieves… Did they both revile him? Only one, and the other promised heaven? Neither?

          What were his last words? Why does only John have the big speech at the end about Jesus’ mother?

          Were there guards at the tomb, or not?

          Who went to the tomb that morning? Who did they see when they first arrived? Was it one angel, two angels, or simply nothing?

        • Al

          I can see you don’t understand how ancient writers recorded events, They didn’t always record events in chronological order nor did they include all details of an event.
          The core events are the same in the gospels. Christ dies on the cross with 2 others. He was crucified by the Romans. The other details in the 4 gospels are incidental details. This same kind of thing goes on today when multiple reporters report on the same event. They are not identical nor do they all have the same details.

        • So when two stories about the same thing are significantly different, do you just get to decide whether they’re history or not on whim? Must be cool.

        • RowanVT

          So you say the gospels, and the bible in general, are NOT the inspired words of your God? How can you use them as proof of God then?

        • adam

          What is OBVIOUS is that YOU dont understand how these stories were actually related to others.

          Well the problem is that these kinds of stories were not RECORDED, but shared by STORYTELLERS orally.
          And storytellers use EXAGGERATION to help make the story more interesting and REMEMBERABLE.

        • MNb

          Nothing of this is proof of your god.

        • I await with anticipation your showing me examples of the supernatural in the consensus view of history.

          All I get is crickets.

        • MNb

          Your question is loaded. Who said we consider the Gospels worthless? I certainly don’t. I just maintain we can’t conclude from it that there is a god. We can’t conclude that from Tolkien’s novels (specifically AInulindale) either. That doesn’t make them worthless.
          Just like his novels tells us something about Tolkien the Gospels tells us something about the authors.

        • Is Harry Potter evidence for Hogwarts?

        • MNb

          No matter how often you repeat this, it remains a circular argument. The Gospels are evidence for god. God inspired the Gospels.
          I concluded that they were for a large part fiction.

        • I’m pretty sure there are other religions besides Christianity. Maybe atheism is false and Mormonism or Wicca or Shintoism is true.

        • Al

          Great. Then bring there claims to the table and we can scrutinize them and see if they have the truth or not.

        • So then you retract your previous binary characterization of the problem?

        • Al

          So far I have no reason to think I’m wrong.

        • You just invited the claims to the table of the religions that you’d earlier said didn’t exist (with your dichotomy of atheism vs. Christianity). There either are only two choices, or there are not. You’ve opted for both. One choice was wrong.

        • Pofarmer

          You seem to be conflating athiesm with science, so, o.k. Is Science true? Well, science is the continual source for the truth and mechanism of the world around us. “We” understand an awful lot about the world around us due to science. The advances in the human condition since the advent of the scientific method, but especially since the enlightenment and the industrial revolution are undeniable. Religion has absolutely nothing to compare with the advances made by science and industry in just the last 100 years, let alone the last 250. So, is science “true”? Well, if you judge by accomplishments, science is certainly “truer” than religion. Does that np,ean that christianity is false? That’s my feeling, but I don’t have to assert it. Hell, the simple fact that you ask the question means that you, yourself, know that you have no proof.

        • Al

          Science and Christianity are 2 different disciplines that address different problems.

        • Pofarmer

          Christianity addresses problems it created in the first place.

        • adam

          Just like this:

        • adam

          People believing that there is insufficient evidence for god, does not make christianity false.

          You have YET to demonstrate that christianity is true..

        • Al

          It has been demonstrated that Christianity is true. Christ resurrection is proof enough that it is true.

        • Kodie

          I really don’t think so. For one thing, that is a story. You have just as much evidence for Christ’s resurrection as Pofarmer’s Aunt Maxine, yet you need to ask for extra evidence in Aunt Maxine’s case. I don’t have any proof that Christ resurrected that is satisfactory. Secondly, let’s go ahead to fantasy land and assume we do have proof that Christ resurrected. It does not logically follow that any of the rest of Christianity is true. It’s called misdirection. Look it up.

        • Al

          The apostle Paul banks the truth of Christianity on the resurrection itself. He says that if Christ was not raised then our faith is vain and useless.
          We have over 500 witnesseses who saw the risen Christ. Over 12 of them we have their names. The Jewish authorities never produced the body. The apostles went to their deaths for this. Taking everything into account the only logical conclusion is: Christ rose from the dead.

        • Kodie

          Or your faith is vain and useless.

        • Al

          Only if Christ has not risen. The facts do point that He did.

        • Kodie

          There are no facts, only a story.

        • RowanVT

          What ‘facts’? A guy saying so is not a ‘fact’.

        • Pofarmer

          Al, there is no evidence the 500 existed. It was a throwaway line that may well have been added later on. They are never mentioned any where else. There is no good reason to believe that claim. There is no writing from Pontius Pilate, or any Roman official, indicating they had a guy that they had tried to execute running around the city performing copious miracles for over a month. For that matter, there is no record of the disciples running around performing miracles. There is no writing from contemporary historians, or official biographers of, say, Herod, of any of this happening. People die for false beliefs all the time. You’ve been given many recent examples. The logical conclusion is that 2000 years ago in palestine, just as many raisings from the dead happened then as they do now. Did you ever check out the miracles of Elijah or Elisha?

        • Al

          We may not know the identities of those 500 but the Corinthians of the 1st century did. We have no reason to doubt this given that the gospels and Peter also mentions the resurrection.
          Peter and Paul performed miracles. Read Acts.
          “Nearly 40 years ago, C.H. Dodd put forward the idea that St Paul’s credal statement in 1 Corinthians 15 could be confidently traced back to Jerusalem in around AD 35.[2] This idea has captured the mind of New Testament scholarship to such an extent that few scholars today doubt it. It was an idea of immense significance. Dodd wrote, “We have here a solid body of evidence from a date close to the events,” and according to Gary Habermas, it has changed the thinking of an entire generation of scholars..

          The great Roman historian Tacitus, in his Annals of Imperial Rome, recorded events from the death of Augustus in AD 14 to the death of Nero in AD 68. Yet Tacitus was not born until AD 55 and did not write the Annals until around AD 110. In other words, he wrote up to 100 years after events he described. Furthermore, there are only two ancient manuscripts which have survived. The older manuscript was written about AD 800!

          .”http://www.bethinking.org/did-jesus-rise-from-the-dead/the-resurrection-of-jesus-and-the-witness-of-paul

          The NT is on solid historical and scholarly grounds.

        • Kodie

          We have no reason to doubt Pofarmer’s relatives had visions of Aunt Maxine. But you wanted their contact information so you could make sure the testimony checked out, so you’re a hypocrite if you believe in Jesus’s resurrection as well as a hypocrite if you think we would. It’s based on nothing more substantial that Pofarmer’s testimony, so why do not need to know the names of these alleged 500?

          One person, Pofarmer=Paul, related a story of a resurrection with witnesses. If you believe one, you have no reason to disbelieve the other, and vice versa.

        • al

          What historians support Pofarmer’s story?

        • Kodie

          As many as support the biblical account of the resurrection.

        • Pofarmer

          How would the corinthians know the 500?

        • adam

          John Edwards?

          Let’s see I see someone with an aunt whose name starts with a N or M or A, she’s female, maybe it’s a T or an H, anybody?

        • adam

          I am still waiting for the evidence of all the zombies at the resurrection and the earth standing still……

        • MNb

          “He says that if Christ was not raised then our faith is vain and useless.”
          I agree with Paulus here. Your (and his) faith is vain and useless.
          I have 500 witnesses who can account for my fairies in my backyard. I easily can give you 12 names. The authorities never produced the dead remnants of my plants.
          Oh – and a lot of Germans, especially those in the SS, went to their deaths for the teachings of their Fuhrer.
          Taking everything into account the only logical conclusions are: my flowers blossom beautifully thanks to the good care of my fairies and Hitler was completely right.

        • adam

          We’ve already covered this, you DONT have over 500 witnesses, you have ONE witness CLAIMING over 500.

          Then the only logical conclusion from this list:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_disappeared_mysteriously

          It that all these people are not really dead?

        • Al

          You are dense. Paul writes to the Corinthians about the 500 eyewitnesses they would have known. We also have the 4 gospels. Peter mentions the resurrection also in his letters.

          BTW- you need one account of something to establish its true.

        • RowanVT

          Sooo… were there soldiers at the tomb or not? Were there angels at the tomb or not? Exactly how many women went to the tomb that morning?

        • Al

          Yes to all. Read the accounts for your answer to how many women were there.

        • RowanVT

          AHAHAHAHA… Was there 3, 2, or one woman? Was there one angel, 2 angels, or none? Only one gospel lists soldiers, but the other 3 do not.

          You are so ignorant of your holy book that it’s simply pathetic.

        • al

          Alright go get a pencil and paper and write this down:
          1- all gospels mention at least one woman,
          2- all gospels mention at least on angel.
          3- all mention He was buried in the tomb,
          4- all mention that He rose which implies the tomb was empty.

          Gone over this before. When more than one person writes about an event they will agree on the core details but differ on the details. Hope this helps.

        • RowanVT

          Wrong. One gospel does not mention an angel when the woman first arrives. The angels are there AFTER, once she goes and gets a disciple (the only account where a disciple goes to the tomb too) to come see the empty tomb.

          You are ignoring the fact that only one gospel mentions guards.

        • al

          Do all accounts have to mention every detail for the story to be true?

        • RowanVT

          I would think guards would be a core detail, don’t you?

        • Al

          No. The core details are the death of Christ, the empty tomb and the appearances. If you don’t have all of these then there is no resurrection.

        • RowanVT

          Dead jesus… fine. Missing body? easily explained by stealing it. Appearances? Because no one ever hallucinate, lies, or is mistaken. Think of all the Elvis sightings!

        • Kodie

          Pofarmer’s Aunt Maxine resurrected from the dead too.

        • MNb

          How do you know the Corinthians would have known those 500 eyewitnesses? Corinthe is quite a distance from Jerusalem.

          “you need one account of something to establish its true”
          How nice! I gave you an account of the fairies in my backyard. I am one person. Thus you must accept it as true.

        • adam

          Demonstrate YOUR proof.

        • InDogITrust

          Oh dear, my optimism was unfounded. You don’t get it.

        • Pofarmer

          Yeah, expect to get your hopes dashed by Al a lot.

        • Al

          Your right I don’t get it. I can’t wrap my mind around the brain of an atheist.

        • Just following the evidence where it points is tough for you?

        • Al

          Especially when I’m expected to believe absurd ideas that we are an accident and our world just happened to get over 100 necessary conditions just right so we could thrive on this planet. How lucky we are. NOT.

        • Kodie

          Absurd ideas like a sky man thinking and doing and arranging things for you, and being disappointed when you do a wrong thing, and saving a space for you after you die to sit right next to him. I mean, you expect me to believe that and I don’t know where you’re getting that from. We thrive on this planet because we are lucky, and we fail to thrive on this planet because we got arrogant.

        • adam

          WE are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.
          Some just fail to act like it, and WANT MAGIC to be involved because SCIENCE is just TOO difficult to understand when they are so ignorant.

        • Al

          It is claimed that “WE are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success” but not proven. How could natural selection which is said to be a mindless process do such a thing? How does it work? This sounds like MAGIC since science cannot explain the mechanics of natural selection. It only assumes it.

        • adam

          But SCIENCE DOES explain the mechanics of natural selection.

        • Al

          Then explain it. Is natural selection a force of nature like gravity? How does it know when to do something to an organism? How does it know when survival is at stake?

        • Kodie

          ***GROSS MISUNDERSTANDING ALERT***

          Natural selection isn’t a conscious force that selects traits, it is the ability to survive at all that selects those traits. Let’s say I have the trait for hunger and you do not have a trait to recognize hunger. You’re going to starve to death, and my progeny are going to have the trait to recognize when they are hungry they need to eat. That’s not a forever trait of survival. For organisms to satisfy their needs to eat, there must be food, and say one organism can eat whatever but I can only eat food rich in iron. What if another organism is quicker at getting those foods, then my species tends to starve to death (go extinct) or adapt.

          THIS IS ALSO A WILD SIMPLIFICATION FOR YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR IDIOTIC MISUNDERSTANDING.

          It’s a stupid question to ask how does natural selection know what traits to select for, because your idea is that god selects from some throne or whatever, consciously, you actually cannot comprehend how nature works without a conscious designer.

        • Kodie

          I am getting a 404 error when I try to reply from email or return to this page from the main page.

        • Al

          Sorry for asking a stupid question that you have not answered. I’m just trying to understand how evolution is supposed to work and I know natural selection is part of it as is survival of the fittest. There is so much to discuss and think about that we can;t take anything for granted. Agreed?

        • Kodie

          I gave you a highly simplified answer but it was the answer. The species in an ecological niche may be competing for resources. Maybe two of the same species also. The genetic propensity for survival will be more equipped to pass on its genes to another generation and then those offspring will have those genes too. Like, say, two rabbits and one rabbit has skippier hopping and one is like duh and stands still. The standing still bunny will get eaten by a hawk probably sooner than later, and the skippier bunny will pass on its skippy hoppy genes to the next generation. Maybe in past generations there were no hawks and bunnies had a safe time to eat vegetables. Hawks enter the environment to look for food and find plenty of slow rabbits! This is great survival for the hawk. The bunnies have to adapt and the slow ones will get get caught before they can procreate so their slow genes will not survive. If all the bunnies are slow, then it’s possible all the bunnies will just go extinct. That’s more likely with rabbits if there is nothing to eat than being prey.

          I really don’t think I’m explaining this best, but it is a stupid question to ask if you are entering an argument without knowing facts and only carrying myths your propaganda fed you to argue against.

        • You don’t care to understand evolution, so why ask? Whether you get a great answer that you understand or one you don’t, your beliefs won’t change.

          You’re a waste of time. Still.

        • adam

          Natural selection isnt sentient, so it doesnt ‘know’ anything.
          It doesnt need to, it is a property not a ‘godlike’ entity.

          Full Definition of NATURAL SELECTION
          :
          a natural process that results in the survival and reproductive success of individuals or groups best adjusted to their environment and that leads to the perpetuation of genetic qualities best suited to that particular environment

        • Al

          Ok. Now describe how this process of natural selection works in the world. If its a natural process that must mean it is some kind of force. Right? If so, what is it?

        • Kodie

          Hey dipshit, did you ignore that I wrote you 2 whole posts describing in shitty simplistic detail just for you how it works? Don’t hassle someone about not giving you the information you seek, when you have not acknowledged that someone else has provided it and you just didn’t read it. That’s a shitty hypocrite Christian thing to do, is hassle Adam because Adam didn’t give you the answer, and ignore Kodie because you don’t have an answer for Kodie. You have the answers, and you ignore me and harp on adam. So fuck you. We know what your tricks are, you typical Christian asshole.

        • adam

          biodiversity in breeding and those best suited to the changing environment survive and breed, those that dont………….dont.

          No, it is not a force, but a ……………………….process.

        • MNb

          That you are addicted to teleology doesn’t mean scientists and atheists are. In case you haven’t seen the memo: teleology has been thrown out of the window except by goofy theists.

        • Kodie

          How does it work? How does your religion pretend to know that it works? I’m communicating to you by internet, do you have limited access to science sites?

        • Al

          What’s wrong with asking how evolution works? If you know science then you should be able to explain it to me and not expect me to chase down some science site for answers.

        • Kodie

          It’s really arrogant of you to plant yourself into an argument when you don’t know anything about what you’re arguing against. I have no reason to take you seriously if your arguments are based on ignorance and you actually have to ask me or anyone how evolution works. I hope someone explains it for you, but it’s enough to point out that you do not already know and yet you know that it’s not true!

        • Al, one thing I have noticed is that you ask a lot of questions but are not interested in hearing answers. To me you seem very convinced in your beliefs, or feel afraid that your beliefs might not actually be true so throw out all sorts of comments and questions trying to debunk rational thought. Like most Christian people, you sound scared to think against what the holy documents state in case of eternal damnation. Well, I can understand that but one thing you should ask yourself, are you comfortable worshipping a god such as yours?, you know, with all the immoral and evil deeds as told in the bible?
          Another thing that gets me is I have been told numerous times that we have been given free will. If I am free to not follow the bible and then doomed to eternal hell, then how is that free will if I only worship god due to fear?

        • hector_jones

          Cuz that’s how PhDs learned their science, from comments we posted on this blog, right Al?

        • Yup, science can sound like magic. Educate yourself, and get back to us.

        • Al

          Give me your evidence against the idea of the impossibility of God not existing. Then we can go from there.

        • Kodie

          I’m not arguing for the impossibility of god not existing. Language is also a problem for you?

        • Al

          Ok. How about giving me some reasons why you don’t think God exist?

        • Kodie

          I don’t see how that will further either of our arguments.

        • If a scientific claim offends your common sense, join the club. No one cares if your intuition finds it absurd. Common sense isn’t a useful tool at the edge of science, so stop using it.

        • Al

          Get serious. You can leave your brains at the door but I won’t. Just because some guy in a lab coat says something does not mean its true.

        • Kodie

          Why do so many Christians like to get their fake Ph.D.’s? But anyway, you idiot, what Bob is saying isn’t to believe any schmuck in a lab coat, but to learn and read and understand. You’re more in favor to stand in denial. You know more than they do because they wear a lab coat, but your Christian phonies also wear a lab coat and tell you what you want to hear. You’re not fooled, are you, that you’re actually educated?

        • Hmm. I wonder if you’re pretending to be stupid or just stupid.

          It’s not a guy. It’s the consensus of every single person who is qualified to weigh in on the issue (that is: not you or me).

          A layman has no grounds by which to reject the scientific consensus as the best provisional explanation.

          Or perhaps you think I’m wrong? If so, show me something better.

        • Al

          You need to do some independent critical thinking on this and not suckered into to believing nonsense. Scientific claims should be taken with a lot skepticism given how many times a theory has been thrown out. You should also be skeptical on how science claims to know something especially stuff from distant past or off planet.

        • I’ll type slowly so you can understand: I’m not qualified to evaluate the evidence.

          Could a scientific idea or theory be overturned? Of course. But the consensus is the best we’ve got at the moment.

          You wonder how science claims to know about stuff long ago or far away? Read a science book. Learn something. The 21st century is way cooler than the 12th.

        • Al

          You may not be qualified but that does not mean others are not. Makes me wonder what kind if education you got.
          You should challenge assumptions and conclusions of anyone including scientists.

        • Kodie

          Do you challenge the assumptions and conclusions of Christian scholar pseudo-scientists? Don’t be a hypocrite.

        • Al

          Yes.

        • I’m imagining you on a plane. You going to give tips to the pilot?

          Do you walk around the hospital, peeking into operating rooms to make sure the surgeons are doing things your way? You do challenge the assumptions and conclusions of those eggheads in white coats, right?

          Or do you figure that the experts have got things covered and you should just leave them alone?

        • Ron

          Unfortunately, some theists have limited their reading selection to just one book, and it specifically warns them about reading other books:

          “But, my child, let me give you some further advice: Be careful, for writing books is endless, and much study wears you out.” Ecclesiastes 12:12, NLT

        • adam

          “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

          …Stephen F Roberts

        • Al

          This has to be the supreme weapon for the atheist. Its supposed to the death blow to Christianity but in reality its only a slogan. Have you studied all other claims to these other possible gods? Do you know the universe exhaustively to rule out absolutely that God could not exist?

        • hector_jones

          Did you study all other claims to these other possible gods before choosing Christianity? Why do you get the luxury of rejecting them all out of hand but we atheists are expected to do a ton of leg work first?

          Are you really trying to argue that we are wrong about the non-existence of all these other possible gods?

        • Al

          I don’t need to study them all. If I already have the truth and know why its true, I don’t need to study every aspect of that belief system. When I do so, I have some questions to ask of them on how they know what they know is true. I ask this of atheists and all I get is basically a blank stare.

        • Golly, it must be cool to be so smart. You just stumbled onto the right religion and didn’t have to search the world for it.

        • Kodie

          They believe their beliefs for the same reason you believe yours. They are convinced of it and already have the truth and know why it’s true and do not need to study any aspect of a competing belief to maintain conviction for theirs. They have no more or less evidence than you have.

        • MNb

          Unfortunately you’re a huge failure when it comes to tell us why your truth is the truth and nothing but the truth. What’s more, when I ask you a question on “how you know what you claim to know is true” you don’t provide nothing but “basically a blank stare” indeed.
          The fairies in my backyard are still doing fine, you see. And I already showed you how I know they are true: for exactly the same reasons you think the Resurrection is true.
          So Hector and Kodie are right about you.

          As for me I already told you that I think truth is a useless word. So asking me how I know what I know is true is based on a strawman. That’s not exactly a blank stare.
          You should have asked me “how I know what I know is correct”. The difference is that I don’t claim that my knowledge is eternal, unchangeable and absolute. Unlike you I recognize that knowledge always has changed and always can change and thus never can be called true. Even if I call myself a 7 on the scale of Dawkins I apply this to my atheism as well. That’s why I told you how I could be converted. Remarkably enough you never told concretely how you could be deconverted; you never got beyond vague claims like “show it’s untrue”. The honest thing would be to tell how to show it’s untrue.

          Now for the “how I know” it’s pretty simple: the scientific method. It uses two means: deduction and induction. Both are objective, of if you prefer, intersubjective. If these two means give the same results we can claim to have knowledge. That’s why Evolution Theory is so strong. A large set of totally different data confirms it (induction) while it makes lots of testable predictions derived from a small set of assumptions (deduction).
          Now you define god as an immaterial being. Hence the scientific method can’t be applied. You have tried a couple of times to back your belief this way, but predictably have failed miserably. The issue can only be addressed by means of deduction. Then the first question is: do you accept science (in your case: no, because you reject Evolution Theory and some more)? I do and I think Herman Philipse has convincingly shown that when I do it’s not possible to build a consistent and coherent worldview that includes any immaterial entity. I already gave you the two reasons for it.
          All this is not exactly a blank stare either. You know this, because I told you and you have reacted, so you once again are lying. Because of the 9th commandment you are thus defeating your own belief system.
          Prediction: you will learn nothing from this, but just stick to your erroneous ways. Well, that makes me happy, because it means I can have some more fun with you.

        • adam

          Have you STUDIED any other?

          And what criteria did you use to dismiss them?

        • adam

          “Study one religion, and you’ll be hooked for life. Study two religions, and you’re done in an hour.”

          Anonymous

          Gods are derived from superstitions, grown in mythology and indoctrinated through political propaganda.
          Same game, different actors.

        • Al

          Give me an example from the 1st century how Christianity was used as propaganda.

        • adam

          Give me one where it was not.
          The whole STORY of christianity IS propaganda.

        • Al

          Propaganda is “information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.” https://www.google.com/search?q=propaganda&rlz=2C1CHFX_enUS0537US0538&oq=propaganda&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

          Christianity is not this. No reputable scholar in the field thinks this.

        • Kodie

          Every Christian scholar is a propagandist. They don’t care if you find Jesus, they want to sell books. All their arguments are crap and easily dismantled by a child.

        • Al

          Right. Why don’t you dismantle the resurrection of Christ with some facts that show He did not rise from the dead? Then I will know you are serious.

        • Search this site for posts on the subject.

          QED

        • Pofarmer

          Egads, but this one is thick.

        • “The idiocy is strong in this one.”

          http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41IoEyPgbVL._SY300_.jpg

        • adam

          Christianity is EXACTLY that….

          Doesnt matter if they are in a field or an office.
          Religion IS politics…

        • RowanVT

          Christianity uses “information, especially of a biased…nature, used to promote of publicize a particular…point of view.”

          Sorry, it’s propaganda all the way down.

        • Al

          Christianity presents the truth of Christ and persuades-commands all people to believe in Him. Those that don’t will be condemned.

        • RowanVT

          Oh, right. The Mafia tactic. “Nice soul you got there, shame if it was lit on fire.”

          Sorry, not sorry. A deity that would TORTURE me forever because it did not provide sufficient evidence for me to believe, and being omniscient would know even before I was born that this would be so, is evil. Point blank immoral, evil.

          I am more moral than your God. I would not light you on fire, ever, for any reason.

        • Kodie

          Christianity, actually Christians of all kinds, present extremely illogical arguments that are meant to catch the feeble-minded and bring them to church so the church can collect more tithes.

          Christianity does not present anything, but relies on the pawns to keep spreading superstition and fear in the guise of salvation which is a primal wish, not a reality. You want meaning, you can’t handle a universe that doesn’t care about AL.

        • adam

          It’s called “The Big LIE”
          It is designed to work on the emotions of the superstitious, ignorant and feeble minded.

        • (1) Your god is hilariously immoral.

          (2) This is theology and doesn’t count as evidence in an argument. You need to arm yourself with something more powerful than a pop gun.

        • adam

          Telling an atheist he will be condemned to eternal unmerciful torture by an IMAGINARY being, is like a child telling an adult that Santa wont bring them presents – to paraphrase Ricky G.

        • Pofarmer

          Love that quote. It didn’t even take two religions, just cathiolicism vs protestantism.

        • MNb

          You love your god of the gaps, don’t you? I suppose 2000 years ago you would have argued that thunder and lightning show the anger of Thor.

        • Kodie

          I’m definitely convinced your god does not exist.

        • Kodie

          You’re not appealing to me, I’m above and beyond you.

        • InDogITrust

          Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!
          Yay! you almost get it!
          Atheism is a statement of lack of belief. An opinion, if you will. I wouldn’t expect it to “carry weight.” What carries weight is evidence or lack there of.
          There is no evidence that god exists. Hence, i do not believe in god.

        • JT Rager

          Well there is evidence that people don’t believe in a god. Otherwise, everyone would be in a giant atheism movement for something they don’t agree with. Also, by denying that people don’t believe in a god, you are telling me that I am lying. That is a dangerous, presumptuous and offensive position to take.

        • MNb

          You are proof that your god doesn’t exist, thanks to your inconsistency, inconsequence, illogic and rejection of science. Plus your failure to provide a methodology to separate correct claims about the supernatural from incorrect ones (the fairies in my backyard are still going strong). Plus your failure to tell us how an immaterial being like your god is supposed to interact with our material reality. All this becomes clear over and over again in your comments.
          This happens to be the case for all apologists I am familiar with. Even the best, Swinburne, is thoroughly debunked by Herman Philipse.
          Even these two lines of yours confirm my point. See, if you haven’t seen any proof for atheism it is a non-sequitur to conclude that theism is true. For theism you need proof too. So far I haven’t seen any, certainly not from you.
          If you accepted your own argument you would call yourself an agnost.
          Also you refuse to define the word “true”, despite me asking for it. He must confirm it yet, but I suspect that Rager underneath is thinking of the same: your usage of the phrase “atheism being true” is incoherent. The appropriate phrase is “atheism being correct”.

        • Al

          Truth is that which corresponds to reality. So where is the evidence that atheism is true?

        • RowanVT

          Everywhere there is a lack of proof of a deity… which is everywhere.

        • Al

          When you got up today and looked out the window did you think that all that you saw was due only to the mindless forces of nature?

        • Pofarmer

          Yep.

        • Al

          So that means that you cannot expect any order in your life but only chaos.

        • MNb

          That’s a non-sequitur. Moreover it contradicts physics. So you’re simply wrong.

        • Pofarmer

          Nope.

        • adam

          The only apparent chaos in the world is YOUR god.

          He grants touchdowns to Tim Tebow, Oscars to actresses and disease and starvation to children and babies.

          Evolution is not chaotic, but actually orderly.
          The ‘rising’ and ‘setting’ of the sun is not chaotic, but VERY predictable.

        • InDogITrust

          Wrong. Mindless /= chaos. Water has no mind, yet water always flows down.

        • Pofarmer

          It goes much, much deeper than that. Given protons and nuetrons, you get hydrogen(organization) Given Hydrogen and the force of gravity plus molecular forces you get stars(organization) given stars and the nature of molecluar forces and energy you get heavier elements(organization) given the availability of heavy elements and gravity amid weighlessness you get planets. Given planets, and availability of water, you get chemical reactions(organization). Really, nature is organization all the way down, not chaos.

        • Al

          What explains this order all the way down? Why should these forces of nature be what they are and not something else? Mindlessness does not explain it. Sorry.

        • Pofarmer

          Methodological Naturalism explains it just fine. The problem with your “Answer” is that you must posit not only the same forces that methodological naturalism does, but then you must posit a mindless, immaterial, all powerfull creator, who is more complex than the forces that it would create. So, you are left with a much bigger puzzle than just saying, “This is the way it is.” Now, Saying that, I would advise you to go to “Preposterous Universe” and do some reading and looking around, maybe even ask some questions.

        • Al

          You assert that Methodological Naturalism explains things just fine. The problem is that it does not explain how DNA or molecular motors that is in cells could have come about by the mindless forces of nature alone. How does this work without any intelligence involved?

        • Kodie

          Why do you think DNA is different than anything else? It’s chemicals.

        • adam

          Where does intelligence COME FROM in order to get ‘involved’ in your scenario?

        • Al

          Intelligence can only come from a mind.

        • adam

          And so where does a mind come from?

        • Al

          God.

        • RowanVT

          Then how come someone without a functioning brain doesn’t have a mind?

        • adam

          The REAL question is how does someone with a functioning brain NOT use their MIND?

        • Al

          If thoughts come from the chemicals in the brain then that means we have no independent thinking.

        • Kodie

          Can you draw a diagram of this? Who are you beside your brain that you are thinking a thought and then make it happen outside of your brain, like pressing buttons on a calculator or phone. Who are you outside the phone of your brain?

        • Al

          I contend that the mind and brain are not the samethings. The brain is material and the mind is immaterial. The mind works through the brain.

        • Kodie

          You contend fantastical unproven and unscientific superstitious bullshit. Thanks for simplifying this for us!

        • RowanVT

          You assert without evidence. If there is no brain, there is no thoughts, if there is no thoughts, there is no mind. We can alter the mind by altering the brain.

        • adam

          A damaged brain has a damaged mind, they are inseparable.

        • adam

          Well this is testable.
          Remove all the chemicals from the brain, thinking is removed as well.
          Each brain is independent.

        • Pofarmer

          I don’t follow.

        • Al

          They do.

        • RowanVT

          An anencephalic baby has a ‘mind’? They are capable of thoughts, emotions, recollections when they quite literally don’t have anything except a rudimentary, insufficiently functioning brain stem?

        • Al

          I think so. Its not just the mind that makes man unique and special but that he has the image of God in him.

        • adam

          Adolph Hitler had the image of God in him……

          That helps justify the god of the OT with the emotional immaturity of a spoiled 5 year old.

        • Al

          Because Hitler has image of God in him he is a moral being who will be held accountable before God for his evil.

          The atheist on the hand would have to believe Hitler got away with his evil since he ceased to exist when he died. He was never brought to justice.

        • Kodie

          Why is justice such an important concept in Christianity? I think it’s great that Hitler can’t hurt anyone now, and wonder why he was put on earth in the first place if there’s a god.

        • adam

          There is no justice in ‘christianity’, mercy is the polar opposite of justice.

          So those who are ‘forgiven’ of their sins get NO justice.

        • adam

          Hitler DID get away with his EVIL and was NOT brought to justice by YOUR god, just look at all his victims.

          Their morals, HItler’s and YOUR god’s are nothing to aspire to.

        • RowanVT

          Why would God punish Hitler for doing the exact sort of things that God himself did, per the bible?

        • MNb

          Prove that Hitler had the image of god in him. I say this comes straight out of your big fat thumb.
          Indeed I’m convinced that Hitler got away with his evil by committing suicide. Though you could argue that he punished himself. The last two years of his life weren’t exactly pleasant.

        • Ron

          Doesn’t Christianity’s version of “Godly justice” posit that men like Rudolf Hoess—the Commandant of Auschwitz who repented and confessed his sins just days prior to execution (PDF)—will be rewarded with a heavenly hereafter, while the “perfidious” Jews he had tortured and killed under his command will be condemned to an eternity of even more torture and suffering?

          How do you reconcile that strange twist of fate?

        • Al

          Repentance and belief in Christ is key. If a man truly repents of his sins and believes in his heart that Christ died for those sins, that man will not be condemned. Without this, there is no salvation no matter how good a life a person lives. The issue for salvation is not how good a person is, but his sins.

        • adam

          So no matter what ATROCITIES a man commits, he does not get JUSTICE, simply because he repents and believes.

          And yet, those that doubt will be tortured mercilessly for ETERNITY?

          And THESE are the ‘morals’ you think are good for society?

          Sounds VERY twisted and sick…

        • Al

          When a man repents he does not get justice but mercy.

          If society lived by the 10 commandments this world would be a lot safer.

        • adam

          So a ‘believer’ can literally do anything they want and get away with it? So there is NOT accountability for their EVIL.

          So no matter what ATROCITIES a man commits, he does not get JUSTICE, simply because he repents and believes?

          And yet, those that doubt will be tortured mercilessly for ETERNITY?

          And THESE are the ‘morals’ you think are good for society?

          One where Rudolph Hess sits next to Jesus while the Jews he mass murdered get tortured UNMERCIFULLY for ETERNITY.

          EXTREMELY sick and twisted view of ‘morality’, objective or not….

          And it appears to be just a JUSTIFICATION and sanctioning of EVIL….

        • MNb

          Like I wrote, I realized this when I was 13 or 14. There happen to be a couple of atonement doctrines and I still have to study them, but at the moment I don’t see any answer to this christian dilemma. It’s why I like islam better. Allah weighs both: the balance of your good and evil deeds plus your surrender to his almight.

        • Al

          This is how God will determine in the judgement. Man still should punish the wicked in this world. That punishment though is finite while sins that God will punishment will be punished eternally.

          It would be very good for society if the members understood and believed that they will be held accountable at the judgement for all the evil they have done. No one gets away from being punished for their evil.

        • RowanVT

          Unless they accept human sacrifice and say “I’m really really sorry!” right before they die. Then they don’t get eternal punishment at all.

          Also, eternal torture is evil.

        • al

          You keep saying ” eternal torture is evil” but as an atheist you can’t ground anything to be evil as an atheist. Its all matter in motion.

        • Kodie

          Can you tell me what eternal purpose eternal torture serves?

        • al

          To sin against a holy and perfect eternal being requires eternal punishment. If that doesn’t satisfy you then, this is something that God has warned about will happen to those who sin against Him.

        • RowanVT

          Because God is an evil sadist. He enjoyed visiting plagues upon the egyptians. He ordered his armies to commit genocide.

          This is not a perfect being, it’s an evil one. And besides, you only have God’s word for it that he is good and just. Isn’t that something an evil being would say as well?

        • al

          You really should read up on why the plagues were necessary.

          It is true that it is revelation that tells us about certain attributes about God. You know God is good by the good things He gives you in your life even though you spit in His face by not acknowledging this. This is evil.

        • RowanVT

          The only thing he ever gave me was abject terror.

        • Al

          That is not true. You should fear Him but that is not all you should do. When He provides a way out of condemnation and you refuse to take it then you bear the consequences alone and the terror you fear will be far greater than you can imagine.

        • RowanVT

          So you are admitting God is an asshole. Thanks. I appreciate your moment of honesty.

          This was not mere fear. This was crippling terror WHILE I WAS CHRISTIAN.

          No child should EVER be so worried about death and torture.

          God as a character is an asshole. It’s good he doesn’t exist because it makes the universe a better, more moral place.

          I note that you are STILL avoiding the topic of God condoning slavery and rape.

        • MNb

          “No child should EVER be so worried about death and torture.”
          When I read stuff like this I’m grateful I was raised secularly. I was about 9 or 10 when I realized that death was nothing to worry about; the suffering before is.

        • refuse to take it

          “It” is a belief. I can’t just believe something that’s unbelievable.

          How about you? Can you believe in leprechauns?

          You should fear Him

          You just say that without hesitation? What sort of sage or father figure should anyone fear?

        • MNb

          Indeed. A psychologically healthy parent makes sure his/her kids don’t fear him/her. God would be a bad teacher and wouldn’t make it long on my school.

        • Worse, the Bible makes clear that he graduates (that is, gets into heaven) fewer than half of his students.

          As a teacher, he sucks.

        • adam

          I think THIS makes more sense:

        • al

          don’t believe in leprechauns because there is no evidence for any or good reason. If there was, then i would. To bad you can’t say this.

          Fear is a good thing in the right context. Your children should have a proper fear of displeasing you on important matters. If they don’t, they won’t respect you.

        • Kodie

          That is exactly what we’re saying. Just because you’re credulous enough to believe a scripture is history instead of embellished lore at best does not make it any more true or credible than leprechauns.

        • al

          That’s point I have been making. Scholars do not support you. They do not call this a embellished lore. Your out of sync with reality.

        • Kodie

          Biblical scholars are all propagandists. That is a fancy word for bullshit shovelers. They know nothing of reality and already believe the bible is true. They do not find anything to support that, they only make proclamations that sound intellectual to a dipshit like you, who are fooled by their figurative “lab coats.”

        • al

          Right. lol

        • RowanVT

          Not wanting to disappoint is not the same as fear of being beaten or tortured.

          I respect my parents just fine, but I was *never* afraid of them. They talked to me. They explained every rule they made and why I sometimes had to go on time out. And because they explained things so that I could understand why those rules were there, I did my honest best to never break them. I felt bad when I accidentally broke a rule (I was easily distracted as a kid, so tended to wander when I shouldn’t) because I scared my parents, not because I was afraid of them.

          As a result, now that I am an adult too, my parents are also some of my best friends. I actively enjoy spending time with them as equals, because they raised me with love and understanding.

          Your God is a bully who threatens every small mistake with torture. This is not love.

        • al

          So when they were raising you, you had no fear of breaking their rules? They did not warn you of any negative consequences if you did break a rule?

        • RowanVT

          Nope, because the only consequence was a timeout where I was to sit down and remember what they told me about why the rule was there in the first place.

          Most of the rules I had were about my safety. They explained the dangers that rules were made about, so that I knew why the rule was there and how it served to keep me safe.

          I felt really bad whenever I did break a rule, because I had scared my parents and because I felt bad for (accidentally) abusing their trust in me. But I was never afraid of them, and they never hit me.

          This would be because they are not abusive asses, they are loving empathic people.

        • Kodie

          If a parent forbids something like, don’t ride your bike on the main road, my mother told me why that was a bad idea, and my consequence was potentially getting hit by a fucking car. I don’t want to risk getting hit by a fucking car. That’s not punishment, that’s direct consequences.

          Other parents are all, because I said so, and spank a kid for disobedience. Nobody wants to get spanked, so they just don’t get fucking caught.

          But GOD is omniscient! You can’t sneak out and disobey, right? He’ll get you someday!

          The thing is, god’s punishments and rules do not make sense on earth. They only are “because I said so,” and you do it only to avoid eternal torture. Unreal consequences for following arbitrary rules from a book written and repeated by dipshits like you – who are not god. Judged cruelly and unfairly by, again, dipshits like you – who are not god. And punished on earth for no good reason because you believe the book demands my punishment….

          If you really believed I would get eternal punishment, why interfere in god’s work? If you’re punishing people on earth in order to save them from god’s wrath instead, you must think he’s really really scary!

          But anyway, on earth, there are real consequences to avoid, and sometimes ways of reversing the consequences with no harm done to anyone. I don’t not steal or speed or go upstairs and hit my loud neighbor with a baseball bat because I am afraid of legal consequences. I don’t steal because I don’t think it’s nice to steal, it certainly isn’t nice to be stolen from. I don’t speed because it’s unsafe and could result in a serious accident. I don’t bash my neighbor with a bat because as agitated as his noise can make me, assaulting him is emotionally over-reacting and I can just call the landlord to complain, and turn on my fan to make a soft noise to buffer it. It’s not my job to punish my neighbor or retaliate or anything.

          Sorry, obeying laws to avoid legal consequences is obedience, it’s not morality. Morality is having a sense that doing something is wrong because it’s not right, and there is plenty of shades and disagreements about what is right and wrong. God’s law is to obey out of fear of consequences and not because any of it is sensible.

        • Al

          You don’t need to use filthy language to get your point across. If you think you do then go talk to someone who likes it. I don’t.

          Why would you think I want to get eternal punishment? That is nonsense. The Lord God is not someone you want to trifle with. That’s why Christ warned us to fear God because of what He can do.

          All of man’s laws have a moral component to them.

          The man who fears God and keeps His commandments will do well. The book of Ecclesiastes sums this up where it says:

          “13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.” Ecclesiastes 12

        • RowanVT

          So, you promise to follow his rules as you sell your daughter to be a sex slave, because that’s following his commandment, right?

        • Yeah, the “Lord God” sure is an asshole. How will you be able to enjoy heaven knowing that I’m roasting for eternity? I mean, yeah, I am a filthy atheist who denies the plain truth of God’s existence, but infinite torture is a bit much.

        • Al

          You are without excuse. If He has provided a way of escape for you and refuse to take it, then that’s your business.

        • RowanVT

          God says “Become my slave forever and I might not harm you, or I torture you for ever.” Oh yeah, great way of escape.

        • You just assert that, without evidence. But, of course, that’s what you’d have to do if this were all just imaginary, right?

        • Al

          If it was just imaginary I would not have you read the gospels.
          However, for that you have any effect on you you have to deal with your unbelief which something only you can do. All I can do is give you some good evidence and reason.
          Like they say–you can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

        • RowanVT

          You have provided NO evidence of any sort (the bible does not count as evidence because OF COURSE it’s going to say it is true) and NO reasoning of any sort other than “God will torture you because he’s stronger than you.”

          You haven’t led the horse to water. You’ve stuck it in the middle of an arid desert with an empty trough and are wondering why it’s dying of thirst.

        • Al

          I don’t get why I can use the Bible. Its there that it tells us about hell and other things.
          There is all kinds of evidence for God, Christ and the Bible.

        • RowanVT

          It. Is. CIRCULAR. Reasoning.

          You say the bible is right, because the BIBLE SAYS SO. You canNOT use a text as its OWN AUTHORITY. Otherwise you MUST also say that EVERY SINGLE OTHER religious text is also true because EVERY SINGLE OTHER RELIGIOUS TEXT SAYS IT’S TRUE TOO.

          That you have problems with this very simple concept, a concept EVERY SINGLE OTHER CHRISTIAN I’ve ever met has understood, shows that you are singularly willfully ignorant.

        • What do you say to the Mormon or Muslim who says the same thing to you?

        • Al

          I can evaluate their claims in light of what Christ taught. I already have as my foundation, my criteria, my authority in place in how to determine the truth claims of these or any other belief system. The “standard” is Christ because of who He was. And that was God-incarnate. There is no higher authority to appeal to.
          The Muslim and Mormon deny-contradict some of the teachings of Christ and are thereby false.

        • That sounds easy. You just assume your beliefs are true, compare them with others, find that the others aren’t identical, and so declare them false.

          I do things … differently.

        • Kodie

          For that to have any effect on Bob or any of the rest of us, we’d have to become willfully credulous about its authority, which you, simpleton, have no problem with. You haven’t led anyone to water, you have peddled nonsense.

        • al

          I don’t expect to convince anyone on the spot. This takes time. You really should read the gospels if you haven’t yet or in awhile. They do make a compelling case for all kinds of things we have been talking about.

          How do you account for billions and billions of people down through the centuries and in whom some of the smartest people to have ever lived are believers in the Scripture and Christ? If this was just ” peddled nonsense” then there is no way this would have happened.

        • Kodie

          Humans are not as intelligent as we like to think we are? For all the intelligence any one of us could have, most people have a blind spot, a propensity for wishful thinking, and the convenience of credulousness, which is usually not such a problem until your truth is a fairytale book that has no bearing or relevance in reality or scientific knowledge. We’re all in this together, nobody can know everything or be right about everything all the time. I not only have a strong feeling that you’re wrong, I don’t understand why you believe that you’re right. All I see is your gullibility and at least in this thread, your naivete, lack of reading comprehension, typical Christian habit of lying and evasion, and no evidence for any god, including the one you describe. Billions of people can be wrong about something, for sure. We didn’t know everything we know now, and so before we knew it EVERYONE EVER WAS MISTAKEN.

        • Al

          Here’s the difference between us. You “feel” your right and I’m wrong. I have spent years studying these issue and I have confidence because of the facts and reasons that I’m right. For you I have no reason to think you have done much reading on this and it shows.

        • Kodie

          Wow, you’re arrogant. It’s a shallow subject. It starts with impressing the mark with a parlor trick. Then select particularly moving passages. On to bring them to your church. Tell them which books you read.

          Basically though you’re illiterate and credulous. There is nothing there to prove. Nothing so far any Christian has ever said or passed on from a “scholar” that doesn’t reek of manure. Just because you’re gullible doesn’t make what you believe true. I don’t find a 2000 year old fairy story about a man resurrecting and the multitudes of gullible Christian liars swearing that the bible is good evidence for the bible, you fucking moron, convincing. I don’t find hellfire the least bit threatening. I am not burdened with emptiness, meaningless, or immorality. You’re not challenging or scaring anyone with “truths” they simply want to deny, so that’s why they shout and use strong language. THAT just happens to be yet another lie your church USES against YOU, not me.

          You’re the one who is troubled that some people die and don’t get held accountable for something they’ve done, by the universe, eternally. You’re the one who says people should fear these consequences, but just in case, let’s punish them before they die too. You’re the one who can’t comprehend morality outside of obedience to rules you don’t even want to understand. You’re the one who thinks you’re saving souls for Jesus without giving anyone a good reason. You’re the one who overestimates your own knowledge while telling us we’re falling for tricky conspiracies from a guy in a lab coat. But you’re not smarter than any of us, not really. You’re content to agree with god or god agrees with you and you don’t follow logical arguments or logical consequences of doing something, you are also a monster who is in favor of the system god uses. If you dare criticize it, he’ll punish you too! So you are basically a Nazi sympathizer.

        • al

          You must be on drugs. Why are you even trying to have this discussion with me if you think its all nonsense and what I believe has no bearing you? Would you not rather just watch TV rather than get embarrassed?

        • Kodie

          You’re embarrassing me? Ha ha delusion, it’s so funny.

        • So then you’re the educated one, and we have to catch up? How do you know that you’re not just following the wrong religion like the Muslims and Mormons?

        • MNb

          “I have spent years studying these issue”
          BWAHAHAHAHA! Given the nonsense you wrote about evolution I grand you zilch authority when it comes to facts and judging reasons.

        • hector_jones

          You need to hire a lawyer and sue your teachers.

        • Why read the gospels? Have you read other holy books?

        • hector_jones

          Oh here we go again, numbers matter.

          How do you account for billions and billions of buddhists and muslims?

        • MNb

          “This takes time.”
          The first ones who tried were 17 year old teens from Youth for Christ about 37 years ago. Since then I only moved away from christianity and especially your version. I actually have read the Gospels. They are a pretty good read from a secular point of view. As soon as I imagine a god my main reaction becomes wtf?

          “How do you account for billions and billions of people down through the centuries and in whom some of the smartest people to have ever lived are believers in the Scripture and Christ?”
          Yawn. Do you realize that the argumentum ad nauseam is a logical fallacy? Here we go. How do you account for billions and billions of people down through the centuries and in whom some of the smartes people to have ever lived are not believers in the Scripture and Christ?

          To which I’m happy to add: how do you explain that atheism and materialism popped up independently of each other not once, like christianity or any other religion, but at least twice? And atheism three times, if we stretch the definition?

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Everett

        • Pofarmer

          Doesn’t it say something that you first have to believe to accept your view of the Gospels?

        • al

          Not sure I understand you. John says in his gospel that he wrote it so that those who read it would believe in Christ.

        • adam

          Well THEN GIVE us some GOOD EVIDENCE and REASON.

          So far you FAILED, miserably…

        • al

          What is GOOD EVIDENCE and REASON for you?

        • adam

          MAGIC.

          The only thing that gods have that the rest of us dont.

          Demonstrate the MAGIC of your god, show us how it works.

          You god has already FAILED the Baal fire test, btw, science and lighter fluid won out.

        • al

          What is MAGIC and how does it differ from science?

        • adam

          Full Definition of MAGIC
          1
          a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
          b : magic rites or incantations
          2 a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source

          Science doesnt recognize the supernatural….

        • al

          #2 would fit as a definition for the miracles in the Bible. The resurrection of Christ is the best attested miracle in the NT.

          What kind of EVIDENCE do you need for a historical event?

        • adam

          Demonstrate the MAGIC of your god, show us how it works.

          You can do that RIGHT here and RIGHT now…

        • al

          Christ rising from the dead would be an example because natural forces cannot account for such a thing.

        • Kodie

          Science fiction.

        • al

          No. Remember, scholars say this history and CS Lewis said the gospels are not myths.

        • Kodie

          Real historians do not agree. Your scholars are bunk.

        • al

          So the great C S Lewis is just a hack?

        • MNb

          For some reason CS Lewis is not seen as a reputable scholar on History of Antiquity by those who have studied it – including christisn ones.

        • Oh, well–if Lewis said something, then it must be true.

        • al

          Yes.

        • MNb

          So much for Al recognizing reason – this is an appeal to authority and as such also a logical fallacy.

        • Al

          Tell Bob that. He believes the same thing about scientist in white lab coats.

        • MNb

          You’re violating the 9th commandment once again. He only believes the samething about scientists when they talk about their field of research.
          CS Lewis never has done any research on History of Antiquity.

        • Kodie

          Theology is like being an expert on Star Trek or the works of Jane Austen or something. It can be really really interesting to some people to study a narrow or specific area of popular fiction. Does not make anyone who is a scholar on any of these subjects a historian, especially when they go too far and think it’s not fiction anymore.

          But you make a tedious error and suppose that Bob is fooled by what someone is wearing and can’t tell an expert from some nobody who bought a lab coat.

        • Wrong again. I recognize the appeal to authority fallacy and don’t make it.

        • adam

          NO not some politicized mythology from a couple of thousand of years ago, when these kinds of things were commonplace before science had the ability to filter out such bullshit.

          RIGHT HERE AND RIGHT NOW….

        • adam

          Demonstrate the MAGIC of your god, show us how it works.You can do that RIGHT here and RIGHT now…

        • hector_jones

          Please provide us with the list of people currently being punished in hell and those who made it into heaven. Thanks.

        • MNb

          “All I can do is give you some good evidence and reason. ”
          Alas for you you totally fail, in the first place because of your double standards.

          “you can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”
          If the water is gory enough no horse will drink it. The water you offer looks bad and smells bad, no matter how much you try to spice it up. Plus bubbles are popping up, making a disgusting sound. Long ago I tried to touch it with a fingertip. It left a blister.
          No, I don’t think I’ll try to taste it.
          Aren’t metaphors nice?

        • adam

          Perhaps only people like Rudolph Hess and baby rapers NEED a way to escape, and certainly YOUR bible provides a way for them to escape JUSTICE and RESPONSIBILITY….

          Not so much for their VICTIMS though……….

        • al

          You as an atheist would know that Hitler got away with it. He was never brought to justice here or in the next world because he ceased to exist at death.

        • adam

          Of course, look at all the victims.

          And Hess and all the ‘repented’ baby rapers?

        • Kodie

          But why does that bother you?

        • adam

          Hitler was a christian anyway.
          So god probably gave him a mulligan….

        • al

          no he wasn’t. By his life we know he was not.

        • Kodie

          Going by the bible, genociders are god’s favorite.

        • adam

          WHY, because he tried to commit genocide, like your god?

          He was a BELIEVER, and THAT according to YOU is what is REALLY important to your god…

          God gave him a mulligan for trying to emulate his god…

        • al

          It should bother you. If you lost a loved one due to a murder and he got away with it you would be angry would you not?

        • Kodie

          No. I would want him to go to jail, but if he died and there’s nothing we can do, there’s nothing we can do. He can’t hurt anyone anymore. What kind of pathological complex Christianity is based on such personal vengeance and judgment and suffering, and besides if the murderer repented to god, I would not get my loved one back, and perhaps not even a personal apology or any effort made to me, and you think he still gets to go to heaven.

          That’s fucked up, do you not agree?

        • al

          Right. If you are normal you would be enraged he got away with it. You would feel denied.
          Here is the other problem you have. When your loved one dies then you will never see them again if atheism is true. Not with Christianity though. Death is not the end. Even if the murderer gets away with it here, he will not in the next life.

          If the murderer get mercy instead of justice from God because he believed in God then so be it. Don’t you want mercy instead of God’s justice meted out to you? If you get His justice, you will be condemned. If mercy, eternal life.

        • Kodie

          You have never sounded more like a rambling idiot.

          I don’t care how I would feel, it doesn’t make eternal justice true. These powerful wishes are common and I suspect is what makes so many billions of people emotionally unbalanced and fractured to believe it.

          “then so be it”. Oh yeah, if god delivers “mercy” to the murderer who took my loved one’s life, that’s supposed to comfort me. If I”m “normal” I want that person to suffer, but oh well if he doesn’t?

          Death is the end and I”m ok with that, not like you who base your whole life on avoiding the bad place, because as it turns out, eternity is fucking scary.

        • MNb

          “Death is not the end.”
          You should rejoice now getting reunited with the murderer of your loved ones, who has converted, confessed and repented at his deathbed, but never went to jail. So you have exactly the same problem as you ascribe to atheists. You even come close to admitting it. Your

          “then so be it”
          is not any different from Kodie’s

          “there’s nothing we can do”
          So atheism is not to a disadvantage here, according to your own argument. You defeat yourself.
          Good guy.

        • Kodie

          It’s slightly different – I know I’m never going to see the murderer again.

        • MNb

          Of course. I only drew the correct conclusion from his own starting points.

        • Kodie

          I’d find it a little harder to take than “normal person” Al, if I knew I would have to share heaven with someone who murdered someone in my family. It’s not too different if per se, this murderer was still at large. Now he’d be at large eternally, but he’d also probably feel free to stalk and taunt me… as well as traumatize my loved one that he murdered, eternally.

          If I found out that the murderer died, would I feel angry that I could not revive him so we could go through the formal process and get a lethal injection? Or a life sentence? Whereas death, the end of life and permanent inability to do anything ever again, drink milk, watch cartoons, play pinball, kill someone, drive really fast, etc., is “getting away with a crime”, a perfect escape plan. Ha ha ha universe, catch me if you can!

          Dammit! I really wanted that guy to suffer more. And if he repented, well, I don’t get resolution. He gets a reward and I get to see his fucking face every day.

          I like my system way better.

        • MNb

          So do I.

        • So you’re saying that God takes care of divine justice, so the problem of Hitler getting away with it is resolved … unless God decides not to mete out divine justice, in which case we’re back to the starting point where you’re enraged at the injustice.

          I’m missing how Christianity does anything here.

        • hector_jones

          Who am I supposed to be enraged at? You are basically saying you can’t deal with the fact that Hitler is merely dead and not being punished eternally, therefore you make up a god to satisfy your own need to believe Hitler is being punished. But that doesn’t mean you are right. Provide evidence that Hitler is in Hell and not merely dead.

        • al

          I’m just arguing from the atheist view. Hitler got away with it if atheism is true.
          If Christianity is true, then he will be punished in hell.

        • MNb

          This guy got away with it as well according to christianity.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss

          His victims are paying the price now. That’s christian love and justice.

        • Kodie

          Ok, here is one lie.

          You already said it’s possible for someone to get mercy from god prior to their death and after committing atrocities and also

          “then so be it”.

          But now you claim to know that Hitler is definitely punished in hell.

        • Al

          I have no reason to believe Hitler had a death bed conversion.

        • Kodie

          Your reasons to believe anything here are irrelevant. Since you can’t prove it or anything and are asserting it as a positive claim as an example of someone who’s definitely in hell because god agrees with you. I have no reason to believe Hitler didn’t get a special award and a prominent position in heaven and proceeded to genocide all the people god said he really fucked up they don’t belong here. See how making shit up works? Anything can be true.

        • Huh?? What if old Adolph got down on his knees in his bunker and accepted Christ into his heart before he blew his brains out? He’d be up in heaven right now, giving Jesus foot massages.

          So much for your justice.

        • al

          Yep. True repentance from the and belief in Christ from the heart will save a man.

          God’s justice was fulfilled in Christ when He died for the sins of those who would believe in Him. For the unbeliever, he will pay the price for his own sins. He will get justice while the Christian get mercy. Its good news for me, bad news for you.

        • MNb

          “Its good news for me, bad news for you.”
          No, it’s bad news for me. Because of this guy and his victims.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss

          But I understand you rejoice reading RH’s story. Your belief system is pathological.

        • Where is the advantage for the Christian then? Hitler could escape punishment according to your thinking.

          Maybe you’re an atheist …

        • Good news? You were the one who said that in Christianity, no one escapes justice.

          I guess no one escapes … except those that do. Yeah, that’s a lot better than atheism.

        • Pofarmer

          Wow, just wow.

        • MNb

          This guy actually did:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss

          What a prospect, sitting in Heaven eternally hands in hands with him, praising a genocidal lord with the words “f**k the victims”.

        • hector_jones

          Round and round and round we go. Look, we had this conversation days or weeks ago. Whether Hitler “got away with it” by committing suicide and ending up dead is a matter of opinion. But that he is merely dead and not in heaven or hell somewhere is, nevertheless, the most likely outcome of his suicide. This isn’t the fault of atheism. It’s the fault of reality. You have to learn to deal with it.

          If you want to convince us that he’s being punished, you need to provide evidence that that’s what is happening. It’s not enough to assert that Hitler deserves eternal punishment, therefore he’s getting it. The one does not necessarily and logically follow from the other. That’s wishful thinking with no evidence to back it up. You need evidence.

        • hector_jones

          So Hitler could have got mercy after all. And that doesn’t enrage you? You are not consistent.

        • al

          No. God is just and will do what is right. I have no reason to think Hitler got mercy given that he gave no indication of belief in Christ.

        • MNb

          You think you have all the reason this guy got mercy:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss

          But not his victims. So much for christian love and justice.

        • RowanVT

          God is “just” and “will do what is right” and yet he has laws about how to correctly sell your daughter as a sex slave?

        • al

          we know thats not true.

        • RowanVT

          It is too, true. I even provided you book, chapter and verse earlier. God gives instructions for how to sell your daughter as a sex slave.

        • Kodie

          Another lie. We’re racking up quite an amount from new comments alone.

        • Kodie

          Another lie from you.

          But did you know? Hitler gave more indication of belief in Christ than Paul gave indication that Jesus resurrected?

          I mean, did you know that?

        • So you were in the bunker eavesdropping, just to make sure?

          As for God doing what’s right, I don’t think much of the OT’s summary of his “always right” activities.

        • hector_jones

          How do you know what indication of belief in Christ Hitler actually gave to God? Do you think Hitler’s every thought and utterance is recorded by history?

          What’s funny to me is you have ‘no reason to believe’ that Hitler is anything but dead, but nevertheless think you know that he’s in hell, while at the same time telling us all ‘so be it’ to the idea that bad people can be shown mercy and end up in heaven. God’s mercy is said by believers such as you to be ‘infinite’. It follows from that that you can’t possibly be certain that Hitler isn’t in heaven, because infinite mercy means even a guy like Hitler could be shown mercy. Maybe he did a few years in purgatory, saw the error of his ways, and God let him through the pearly gates. Or maybe in his thoughts and prayers which are not recorded by history Hitler begged God for mercy and received it. You really have no idea because you cannot point to one shred of evidence as to whether Hitler is in heaven, hell or someplace else right now.

        • hector_jones

          You’ll never see your loved ones again after they or you die. That’s called reality, al. Christianity promises otherwise, but there is no evidence that it delivers. You even admit that the promise of Christianity is bullshit because Hitler could have got mercy. Why does that not outrage you, when you just said that we should be outraged at the idea that Hitler is merely dead? I’ll take a dead Hitler over a Hitler hanging out with God any day.

        • MNb

          But if I kill off your loved ones today, convert, confess and repent tomorrow and die the day after without being trialed you will be happy to sit hands in hands with me in afterlife. It doesn’t bother you anymore either.

        • You’re saying that Christianity promises revenge in the afterlife? But why should anyone believe that claim?

        • hector_jones

          How do you know Hitler is in hell right now?

        • MNb

          Hitler committed suicide and that’s a sin. This guy is a better example:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss

          Living blissfully and full with grace in heaven. Al’s reaction: so be it. The victims who happened not to convert in time while in the hell of Auschwitz are now according to Al enjoying eternal torture.
          That’s christian love and justice.

        • hector_jones

          Fortunately Al hasn’t got a shred of evidence that anyone is in heaven or hell.

        • hector_jones

          That’s reality, al. Deal with it.

        • MNb

          So much for precious christian empathy. Your god is not love and you don’t have it either.

        • Kodie

          You didn’t answer my question – are you Jenna Black?

          The bullshit consequence of having to go to hell if you don’t obey is not a direct and natural consequence of doing anything bad except for insulting god.

          It’s not the same thing as he tells you not to go sailing without a lifejacket. If the boat tips over or you fall off the boat, your actual consequence may be drowning or not being found by the Coast Guard. If god said I’ll send you to hell if you don’t wear a lifejacket when saling because. I won’t tell you why, it’s for your own good. So you go sailing, you don’t want to wear a lifejacket, and you don’t end up in the water, is it reasonable for god to send you to hell anyway? What if you did end up in the water, but you know how to swim and someone quickly threw you a rope and pulled you back onto the boat.

          Do you deserve to spend eternity in hell because god made a rule that you disregarded and he has no choice?

          That’s why you’re obedient, this has absolutely nothing to do with morals. Kissing the feet of a cruel tyrant is not moral – just because the tyrant can order it or punish me with eternal justice (that by the way is something you actively wish for, don’t deny it) does not make it moral any more than a slaveholder could buy a slave and beat him would be moral.

        • Kodie

          You don’t need to use filthy language to get your point across.

          I need something, you’re hard of reading comprehension.

          If you think you do then go talk to someone who likes it. I don’t.

          I don’t care what you like. I don’t like you babbling inane nonsense without providing any evidence and insulting people who don’t find you persuasive but you still keep it up.

        • Kodie

          My mom was kind of capricious and abusive sometimes, sure.

        • adam

          But would she REALLY torture you mercilessly for ETERNITY, given the chance?

          If not, then she is no Jesus….

        • Kodie

          Well, let’s just say it made me sneaky, and only grudging respect for her to feed me dinner because she could take that away and make me walk to school because it’s my fault I missed the bus. Like 5 miles, no sidewalks. As an adult, I can see her flaws, I can see her insecurities, and I feel sad. Nobody told me a consequence of disobedience was that one day your parents get old and you’re old and you feel sad that it had to be that way.

        • Fear might be necessary for a fallible, limited father. Perhaps, “I will spank you if you run out into the street again.” For an all-wise, omnipotent father? Nope.

          But you’re just imagining the Bronze Age Yahweh who’s just like a super-father: limited in all ways and not omnipotent.

          I don’t believe in leprechauns because there’s no good evidence. Ditto Yahweh.

        • Al

          Huh??? If we should have a proper fear of our father for our good then it follows we should have proper fear of God for our good. To fear God means to to reverence God, to stand in awe of God. It is to treat Him with the utmost respect. This seen in one of the 10 commandments where the command is not to take the name of the Lord in vain.

          If there was good evidence for leprechauns would you believe?

        • RowanVT

          So your idea of ‘fear’ there is to revere. Then use the fucking word revere.

          The ‘fear’ I had for god was gibbering, paralyzing panic and terror. There was nothing about being in awe or wanting to respect him. It was entirely hoping he would not TORTURE ME. When I was fucking FIVE YEARS OLD you fucking asswipe follower of an asswipe deity.

        • Yep, God as the ultimate father. All traits are magnified, including his ego.

          You kinda have to walk on eggshells with this guy, right? Sounds pretty thin-skinned if he demands that respect. And why would he even care if you used his name in vain? He’s that sensitive?

          Doesn’t sound like the perfect, wise sage to me. But perhaps that’s not what you’re going for.

          Re leprechauns: I always accept the scientific consensus. Haven’t we been over this?

        • Al

          To use the Lord’s name is to show disrespect. It is to treat Him with dishonor. This is a hard concept for you and your ilk to understand because we live in a culture that disrespects so many things that its normal.

        • RowanVT

          It’s disrespectful if I sometimes refer to my dad as ‘Dave’?

        • Is God an awesome, fabulous guy? Show me that, and the blasphemy problem takes care of itself.

          But read the OT, and you see the guy is an asshole. Sorry–a hard concept for you and your ilk to understand because you’re so brainwashed to defend this thin-skinned imaginary friend at every turn.

        • Kodie

          So if Dad says don’t ride your bike on the main road or I’ll spank you, don’t smirk while I’m lecturing you or I’ll smack that smile off your face. I mean you don’t want to get hit by a fucking car, so rule one makes sense, but rule two is just your father’s ego.

          In god’s set of consequences, don’t disobey him or he has to punish you eternally! It’s for your own good, he has no choice. So imagine you smirked once while your father was lecturing you about the dangers of riding your bike on the main road, and smacked you forever. It’s your own fault because he warned you he doesn’t like it when you do that. And he can’t just stop hitting you, he guaranteed you eternal smacking if you did something he doesn’t like.

          Your god is unreasonable. There are rules we don’t understand when we’re children, but that doesn’t work when you’re an adult. The stupid problem here is, like, we’re warned that if we don’t cut emissions and dependence on fossil fuel, etc., the earth is going to flood, and you’re like my god promised that’s not going to happen, those scientists are conspiracy! Oh hell fucking damn shit fuck. FOR YOUR OWN GOOD WHETHER YOU UNDERSTAND THE WARNING OR NOT, THIS IS NOT A JOKE. But ignore it, and we are all at peril and all future generations of humans and other organisms are in peril.

          You don’t actually agree with yourself. Your god will punish you eternally for smirking at him while he lectures you on the dangers of riding your bike on the road, so you train yourself not to do that – only in “reverence” to his fearsome power over you, not because you respect the man, or grasp the real, dangerous, and merely probable consequences of riding your bike on the main road. In reality, you could ride your bike hundreds of times on the main road without getting hit by a car. Do you need a beating for disobedience? Actual consequence vs. bullshit consequence.

        • Kodie

          I think it’s egotistical to train children to respect you just because you’re their parent. It’s only your job to civilize them and keep them safe and teach them how to grow and become an adult. It’s not supposed to be a pissing contest.

        • Al

          Children are to honor their parents because of who they are. Their relationship to them is unique and special in a way that no other relationship is.

        • RowanVT

          Say a parent beats their kid bloody every day. Is a child still supposed to ‘honor’ and ‘respect’ that parent?

        • Kodie

          That’s sentimental garbage and stigmatizes and silences abuse victims. That’s what your asshole god teaches you about “morality”.

        • No exceptions? Must a child honor parents who are hateful and abusive?

        • adam

          Of course there is evidence for leprechauns.

          What did leprechauns do to you to cause you to hate them?

        • RowanVT

          We’ve all seen their rainbow after all. It’s a visual sign of their desire for us to always keep striving for something better, that “pot of gold” at the end of the journey.

        • Kodie

          They stole my fucking gold.

        • adam

          Of course there is evidence for leprechauns….
          http://www.irelandseye.com/leprechaun/reportsight.htm

          And there is as much good reason to believe in them as there is to believe in the god of the bible.

        • Pofarmer

          Blah, blah, blah.

        • adam

          Prove it!

        • adam

          So when ‘he’ provides a way out of condemnation, like with Rudolph Hess, THEN you are free of accountability for ANY EVIL that you do…..

          Some ‘morality’……….from some MONSTER……

        • Kodie

          Have you given anyone a reason they should believe you yet? If god sent a dipshit like you to deliver his threats, does that even make any sense to you????

        • Al

          Jesus is the one who said we should fear God and He was the smartest, kindest person to have ever lived. He is the one who warned of hell.

        • Kodie

          And also a fictional character in your comic book.

        • RowanVT

          Smartest and kindest? Citation, non-biblical, required.

        • Wait–wasn’t Jesus the dude who invented hell?

          You want me to roast there forever, and you think I’m going to celebrate that? I can’t believe you would, even though you think you’re not going there.

        • al

          Christ is the one who warned about it. I have no desire to see anyone go there. I’m just trying to show to how to avoid it.

        • RowanVT

          How come Hell was never mentioned *before* Jesus came on the scene. God didn’t see fit to talk about this while he was giving commandments to Moses? Does this mean Moses is in Hell?

          Also, you STILL havent’ answered if you think rape and slavery are okay yet. I have not forgotten.

        • So it’s not his fault? It’s some other element of the Trinity? Doesn’t much matter if 3 are 1.

        • adam

          The Trinity?

        • Kodie

          Why did god think you were a good candidate to convince atheists all of whom are just literate in general, not just smarter than you, but literate at all. Doesn’t seem like a good idea for such a smart god.

        • al

          Convince who? Were having a discussion and were challenging each other. I have no idea who will be convinced by this.

        • adam

          I am more convinced that you are a POE….

        • Kodie

          Here’s a clue – you’re not challenging anyone. But you are proselytizing and not keeping up your end of discussion. So you must think you have a special message that after the many hundreds or thousands of other Christians any given one of us may have encountered on this blog, other blogs, or in real life, that you can tell us something new and convincing. We do tend to get more frustrated by your lack of engagement than anything in particular you say.

          2nd clue – that’s another lie propagated by the Christian community in general, that a Christian just stops by an atheist forum and “asks” questions and “challenges” atheism, only to eventually give up and chalk it all up to the stereotypical meanness and hard-hearted immoral hellbound nature, not because your “evidence” is circular reasoning, tautology, and begging the question for the most part.

          3rd clue – we know you’re not here for a challenging discussion, because some have answered you in good faith, only for you to ignore our answers, and ask them again and say nobody will answer your questions. Your reading comprehension failure is not our problem, it’s yours.

        • RowanVT

          You skipped over the parts where a bunch of us said we used to be Christian, didn’t you.

        • al

          what about it?

        • RowanVT

          So you’ve got a huge enough ego to think you’re telling us something we haven’t heard before? Like it’s some secret we just didn’t know?

          Reading the bible turned me into an atheist. Nothing in the bible is going to make me believe, because it is what made me NOT believe.

        • adam

          Well then DEMONSTRATE that EVEN BABY RAPERS can get to heaven.

        • hector_jones

          If he’s providing anything he needs to contact me directly. You’re not his spokesman.

        • Al

          Ok. Then read the Bible.

        • hector_jones

          I have read the bible. It’s not written by god and it’s not addressed to me.

          Now what, Chester?

        • RowanVT

          Twas the bible that led me to atheism!

        • adam

          He seems about on par with the rest of his gods spokesmen.

        • RowanVT

          Also, as an example of how I am more moral than God…

          I breed corn snakes. The babies I have right now are because I decided to allow their parents to mate and I incubated the eggs. They exist because of me.

          I am their only source of food, water, and shelter. I created them so it is my *obligation* to provide them with what they require to live.

          I do not demand obedience or expect reverence. I do not put them in the oven when they bite me. God is supposedly *at least* as far above us as I am ‘above’ my snakes.

          I do not torture my snakes.

          God tortures humans.

          I provide all that my snakes need to thrive.

          God allows children to starve to death and from exposure.

        • MNb

          You are closer to your snakes biologically speaking than god to you (thanks, Bertrand Russell). So why should god demand obedience and expect reverence etc. if you don’t? Indifference is more likely.

        • MNb

          God never gave me anything good in my life; other people did. Apparently your god is not good.
          Basically you’re back at the old canard:
          1. If something good happens, praise the lord.
          2. If something bad happens, blame Homo Sapiens.
          It’s as pathological a worldview as the first time.

        • adam

          So YOU justify the EVIL of the plagues which killed innocents as well.

        • Kodie

          That’s really just your personal opinion since there’s no god. I mean, if you can imagine that there’s no god just for the sake of argument, then all your morality, the reasonable, the shitty, and the nonsensical part about worshiping your imaginary friend, is not any more objective just because it’s defined by an agreed-upon (and mostly disputed inter-Christianally) fable of standards.

          I’m not spitting in anyone’s face. Your god does not deserve praise. You only praise him because you think if you don’t, he’ll turn your life to shit. That’s superstition, not reality. If I said that about my lucky penny, you’d think I was a nut.

        • adam

          “The president of the United States has claimed,
          on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.” Sam Harris on Bush.

        • Ron

          Unlike most Christians, I have actually read the book you claim to follow. It clearly states that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and sent out the plagues to stroke his own ego.

          “But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Exodus 9:16 (NIV)

          This is reiterated by Paul in Romans 9:16-21 with the additional caveat that we’re not even allowed to question God’s motives:

          19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

        • al

          You didn’t read carefully enough. Nothing in the passage about God stroking His ego.

          God owns the world because He created it and has power over it. He makes the rule and has power to enforce them. Your dislike of Him does not change this one wit.

        • RowanVT

          I own my baby snakes. I caused their creation.

          I do NOT have the right to torture them just because I’m stronger than they are.

          Also, now you are saying God is NOT good, just more powerful and because he’s powerful we have to listen to him.

          You just actively declared that God is a tyrant on a power trip. Good job on accidental honesty once again.

        • adam

          But…….
          .
          .
          his god IS a tyrant on a power trip…..

        • adam

          NOTHING but Ego:

          “But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Exodus
          9:16

          ego noun ˈē-(ˌ)gō also ˈe-
          : the opinion that you have about yourself

        • Kodie

          Why does hell exist? Everyone dies and I don’t have a real problem with that being the end. It’s you and presuming the god you describe is real who need to save you from something really bad in order to get obedience which really isn’t for your own good, because hell doesn’t need to exist.

        • ?? No, not God stroking his big, turgid ego. It’s Christians stroking his ego.

        • Ron

          For once, you’re absolutely right. My opinion of evil fictional entities does not affect their fictional characteristics one wit.

        • adam

          There are necessary to make the STORY DRAMATIC….
          and scare people into Authoritarianism…

        • Kodie

          And the fact that I’m not even allowed to question this holy and perfect being without risking my eternal soul doesn’t make you think it’s total bullshit? It’s more to keep you trapped than to convince me. If he can’t handle a perfectly valid question without punishing me forever, then he’s not perfect. You only love him and bow to him for what he’ll do to you if you don’t, not because you actually like the guy.

        • al

          Who said you can’t question the Bible?The Bible doesn’t say this.

          The God that is revealed in Scripture is the one who holds the power to determine your eternal destiny. He has provided a way out so that you will not be condemned but it seems you reject this. The choice is yours.

        • RowanVT

          It is not a fair choice if someone is holding a gun to your head and saying “Love me, or I light you on fire.”

        • Kodie

          I’m not really impressed by this holy and perfect being sending a moron like you to deliver the threat, thanks.

        • adam

          Prove YOUR god in ‘scripture’ is the one who holds the power to determine eternal destiny.

          Or else we will all know you have no idea what you are talking about.

        • Pofarmer

          Al, you’re preaching. No one here is buying. It’s rubbish.

        • adam

          And that ‘sin’ is honest doubt….

          PURELY EVIL……..

        • adam

          BUT………

          Those who sin and repent get off scott free……….
          So AGAIN there is NO justice…

          Only YOUR continued JUSTIFICATION of EVIL….

        • al

          Those who repented and put their faith in Christ would not be condemned for their sins because paid the price for those sins. God justice was served because Christ took the punishment for those sins.
          For the unbeliever, he will get justice for his sins and will be punished eternally for them. Either have Christ pay the price for your sins or you can.

        • adam

          Right so, christians can do anything they want, baby rape, mass murder, genocide and they can be absolved of their responsibility by being a believer…

          And yet the unbeliever, faces ETERNAL UNMERCIFUL torture for their DOUBT….

          And YOU JUSTIFY this EVIL and think this is MORAL….

        • al

          No. The Christian is not to sin. He is to put sin out of his life. Those that do sin willfully show that they are not true believers.

          Unbelievers are not condemned per se for their unbelief but for their sin. God has provided plenty of evidence for this in the NT.

        • adam

          So you as a christian dont sin?
          Or are you not a true believer?
          And isnt bearing false witness a sin?

          So what is the ‘sin’ of unbelievers if is not unbelief?

        • al

          No. I sin. When I sin and confess it to God I am forgiven. Christ has paid the price for my sins. When you sin, you are not forgiven because their is no such thing as forgiveness in atheism. There is no provision.

          Since you don’t believe in Christ, you have no one to ask forgiveness for those sins or that someone has paid for those sins. In the judgement you will be judged for your sins and be condemned because there is no provision for your sins. You must bear punishment. You will pay the price yourself. This is the result of unbelief.

        • Kodie

          You’re actually getting funny. That’s a lie to scare you, not to convince us. You’re a grown adult acting like a child.

        • adam

          But YOU SAID: “Christian is not to sin.”
          so you cant be a christian…

          NO, I EXPECT to be responsible for my actions, unlike people like you, who want to RUN and HIDE from that responsibility..

          I believe that BELIEFS such as your is the VERY reason so much evil exists in this world.

        • Al

          It is true a Christian is not sin but when he does he is repent and ask forgiveness from God.

          You will take full responsibility for your sins in the judgement and then be punished for them.

          Actually its because so many people don’t believe this that there is so much evil in the world. They do evil because they think they will get away with it. In atheism, no one is held accountable.

        • I’d be happy to take full responsibility for my sins in an afterlife. My sins were finite, so after a finite time in Purgatory, I’d get into heaven with a beer volcano and orgies.

          The bizarre justice you imagine is beneath consideration.

        • adam

          So you are not a true christian, we’ve established that.
          but you still BELIEVE that NO MATTER what YOU do, you will STILL GET AWAY with IT, because YOU think YOU have someone ELSE to take the responsibility of YOUR actions away from you.

          See ONLY ‘christian’ baby rapers and mass murderers can REALLY get away with it, in YOUR ‘reality’.

          In the atheist reality, everyone is responsible for their own actions..

        • al

          In atheism no one is responsible for anything. No one, no thing holds anyone responsible if atheism is true.

          A Christian is not to do evil nor justify doing so if he does.

        • RowanVT

          Other people hold us responsible, specifically those we harmed.

          If I hurt someone, I don’t need God’s forgiveness, I need *that person’s* forgiveness. I need to repay a debt to *that person* not a deity. If I do nothing to make up for something to the person I have harmed, I am harming them a second time.

        • Kodie

          I could call this another lie, but instead I am just going to call you an uneducated ignorant moron. If I steal from my job, I get fired. And that’s only one example.

        • adam

          So you are not a true christian, we’ve established that.
          but you
          still BELIEVE that NO MATTER what YOU do, you will STILL GET AWAY with
          IT, because YOU think YOU have someone ELSE to take the responsibility
          of YOUR actions away from you.

          See ONLY ‘christian’ baby rapers and mass murderers can REALLY get away with it, in YOUR ‘reality’.

          In the atheist reality, everyone is responsible for their own actions..

        • adam

          Of course, atheism is does not hold any responsible, it is not a moral belief system.

          YOUR belief system doesnt hold anyone responsible either, we’ve already established that.

          But christians DO DO EVIL and JUSTIFY it as well as NOT EVIL because their god sanctions EVIL…

          By your own admission your god WANTS baby rapers in heaven, but not doubters…

          That’s a moral system that responsible for EVIL in the world.

        • When I cause harm to another person, who cares what God thinks? I didn’t harm him; I harmed the other person. It’s that person’s forgiveness that I need.

        • Ron

          How exactly did Jesus “pay” for our sins?

          Please explain by what logic punishing an innocent person for the collective sins of the world represents objective justice? Would you be okay with a judge who routinely pardoned convicted felons that thanked him for having tortured and imprisoned his own son in their stead?

          And even so, the price Jesus supposedly paid (one really bad Passover weekend in Jerusalem) pales in comparison to the price (an eternity in agony) that will purportedly be exacted from those who have trouble believing this story—don’t you think?

        • RowanVT

          That is actually an excellent point. If my punishment for sin is an eternity on fire, and Jesus paid for that, doesn’t that mean that Jesus should be in Hell, on fire, for eternity as well? Suffering so that we won’t?

        • Kodie

          If belief in Jesus Christ takes away your inclination to sin, then why are you such a habitual liar?

        • al

          Prove that I lied first. If you don’t you have slandered me.

        • Kodie

          So sue me, anonymous guest “al”.

        • adam

          Well we can start with you CLAIMING to be a christian.
          And then sinning.

          You JUST claimed that the ‘Christian is not to sin”
          You sin
          Hence, you cant be a christian…

        • al

          ??????
          Nice thing about being an atheist is that sin or wrong doing doing doesn’t exist in atheism. All you can say stuff happens.

        • We have a dictionary. Good, bad, evil, shitty, terrific, purpose, and so on are defined there, and we’re entitled to use those words.

        • adam

          Of course wrong doing exists in atheism, we’re atheist not nihilists…

          All you can say about EVIL is that ‘it is God’s will’….

        • Pofarmer

          Sin is an incoherent concept in athileism. Doing wrong certainly exists, though.

        • Kodie

          To be fair, he thinks there’s a gun to his head, so he can’t make sense. He has to make nonsense until he dies or no ice cream pie.

        • Pofarmer

          That makes no sense whatsoever.

        • adam

          Joy to a Sadist…..

        • Pofarmer

          Oh, fuck you Al. This has something else that has been explained to you at length, and you go on like the conversation never occured. You are a broken record of white noise.

        • MNb

          “No one gets away from being punished for their evil.”
          Excellent contradiction, Al.
          Tomorrow I kill off all your relatives.
          The day after I convert, confess and repent. Honestly.
          Two days after I die; I have managed to avoid police.
          According to you my punishment will be the highest reward you think possible: eternal bliss and glory in Heaven.

          “It would be very good for society if the members understood and believed ….”
          Like in European societies during the Middle Ages, you mean?
          And how come the crime rates, the abortion rates and teenage pregnancy rates in the USA are considerably higher, where more members “understand and believe ….”, than in say Denmark? Perhaps you think crime, abortion and teenage pregnacy good for society?

        • adam

          The simple answer is that the JUSTIFICATION of EVIL by the religious IS the reason there is MORE EVIL in the world. Especially in religious places.

          Sick and twisted.

        • adam

          So YOUR god is USELESS in delivering JUSTICE, as in the case of Hess and others.

          If no one gets away from being punished for their evil, then what use is Repentance and Belief?

        • RowanVT

          Really? Those 10 commandments that say nothing against rape or slavery would make the world *safer*?

          Also, which 10? There are hundreds of commandments.

          I hope you’ve never eaten the fatty part of meat (hamburgers count) because that is forever an abomination unto God.

        • Al

          What does the atheist offer the world? What in atheism would tell someone not to do something?

        • RowanVT

          Do you think rape is wrong? Nowhere does god say it is wrong to rape, therefore rape is okay per God.

          However, if you think rape is wrong that means you came to a moral decision outside of God, which means God is not necessary for morals.

          Do you think slavery is wrong? God actively endorses slavery in the bible, therefore per God slavery is good.

          However, if you think slavery is wrong, that means you came to a moral decision outside of God… in fact, *against* God… which means God is not necessary for morals.

          Enlightened self interest and empathy creates morals: I don’t want to be stolen from, so I don’t steal. I don’t want to be punched in the face, therefore I don’t punch others in the face.

          Socialness creates morals: Rampant thievery creates distrust between members causing a loss of group cohesion resulting is lower chances for individual and group survival.

        • Kodie

          Morality doesn’t come from a list of don’ts. If you need the fear of eternal punishment to get along in society, you’re the immoral one.

        • Al

          Huh. What planet do you live on. The reason there are punishments for breaking the law is so that people will be afraid to break them. So it is with life. If people don’t fear eternal punishment then there really is no reason for them not to be immoral if they can get away with it.

        • Kodie

          If you can’t tell that something is wrong to do to someone else without external punishment, then you do not have morality, you have obedience, and you also don’t have empathy.

          The rest of what you think here is total bullshit your religion sold you.

        • RowanVT

          I don’t need there to be punishment for theft, because I have no desire to steal. It’s not a threat of jail time, it’s that I do. not. want. to. steal. things.

          This is apparently beyond you.

        • al

          What about cheating? Would you cheat on your taxes? Would you lie to save face?

        • RowanVT

          Nope. I don’t cheat on my taxes at all because I understand how important they are to pay. In fact, I generally don’t report donations I’ve made so I’m “overpaying”.

          I also do not lie to save face. If I make a mistake, I own up to it immediately because that is important to me and in my line of work, lying to save face could result in the severe injury or death of an animal.

        • al

          If you don’t cheat on your taxes or other things then that is good. However, you are lying about God and cheating Him by not believing in Him and giving Him thanks for all the good in your life.

        • RowanVT

          When I believed, my life was filled with nothing but abject terror that I would make him angry and end up hell being tortured forever. At 5 years old, I would cry myself to sleep while praying because of this terror.

          Once I ceased to be christian, my life was, instead, filled with joy. I had many spiritual experiences while pagan that I never experienced while Christian.

          I am not lying about God. I am not cheating him by disbelieving (isn’t he supposed to be perfect? You make him sound like an entitled 5 year old throwing a tantrum. Not very flattering) because he doesn’t exist to be cheated, and he doesn’t *deserve* worship even if he did.

          God never gave me anything good. Paganism and atheism have given me plenty that is good. If I will thank any gods, it will be those from my 20s. They gave me a sense of peace, love, unity, companionship, purpose and joy. Everything I never received while christian.

        • al

          You are cheating God by refusing to acknowledge the good in your life. It is He who gives you air to breath, a body to live in, loved ones to love, tasty food to eat, etc. Instead you embrace nonsense such as atheism and paganism instead of giving thanks to the true God who gave you things.

        • RowanVT

          Can’t prove your God. Hindu gods are older.

          Plants give me air to breathe. My mother decided to defy her doctors and stop her meds in order to have me so she’s the reason I’m here to love at all. Farmers grew my food, and thousands of generations have gone into domesticating the animals and plants I consume.

          God gave me nothing but fear.

        • adam

          PROVE IT!

          Or else we will all know you have no idea what you are talking about.

        • Kodie

          Your imaginary friend didn’t give me food to eat. You believe a childish fairy tale about a magic creature who judges you and others after you die. The only reason you love him is what you think he’ll do to you if you don’t – on earth, we don’t consider that love but abuse. We’re not under the same threats, as this being is fictional, nobody is cheated. I paid the store for my food, and they paid their workers and suppliers.

        • adam

          If that were true, there would be no need for prison.
          And CERTAINLY no recitivism.

        • MNb

          If christians – especially you – lived by the teachings of Jesus this would be a much better place indeed. The numerous times you have given false witnesses and have violated Matthew 7:1 ……

        • Pofarmer

          If society lived by the golden rule, nothing else would be necesary. Oh, and the world now is generally safer than it’s ever been.

        • MNb

          Good. Let’s suppose you convince me that Heaven is attractive (which I dispute). Then I’ll reconsider converting to christianity a few minutes before I die. According to you I’ll still have free will to do so. As a result I’ll have quite a few happy atheist years ahead of me. Thanks.
          Hmmmmmm – maybe I’ll rape an attractive girl tomorrow. Steal money from my school. Is there anybody I dislike enough that I want to kill him/her? There will be no consequence (I’m smart enough not to get arrested) as the only thing I have to do is “repent truly of my sins, believe in my heart that Christ died for those sins” a few minutes before I die “and I will not be condemned”.
          Hey, better still! I’ll do this things today and repent etc. tomorrow. Then the day after tomorrow I’ll repeat my sins – according to christianity I’m a sinner anyway, so why not – and again the day after I’ll repent etc. Yup, as soon as I am converted Al, the first thing I’ll do is kill off your loved ones. Then I’ll truly repent and we’ll spend eternity hand in hand. Now that’s a glorious prospect! When we meet there I’ll tell you in detail how I did it and together we shall lament my former evil ways.
          Now that’s an offer hard to decline! No wonder that people who like to commit evil deeds so often happen to be christians. For the first time you have made christianity somewhat attractive. You admit it yourself: according to your belief system it doesn’t matter how evil I am. Salvation guaranteed. No need for objective morality. Thanks again.

        • adam

          Theists supporting EVIL like Al does is the VERY REASON for so much religious EVIL in the world.

        • al

          I wish hell was not true but I can’t deny it since Christ warned of it.

          The problem with your example is that you seem to think all you have to do is to say the words–“I repent Lord” and that’s it. It doesn’t work that way. You must truly repent from the heart for your sins. That cannot be faked. The longer a person does evil, the harder it is to turn from it.
          If a person has truly repented and trusted Christ they will not want to sin. Those that still love to sin after saying the words shows they do not have genuine true faith in Christ.

          You also don’t know how will you die. You may not have the opportunity to repent if you wait. The choice is your and your eternal destiny beckons.

        • adam

          So Rudolph Hess TRUELY repented, and is RESOLVED from being RESPONSIBLE for his actions.

          No JUSTICE for the EVIL that he did.
          And YOU JUSTIFY relieving him of responsibility AND the ETERNAL UNMERCIFUL punishment of the Jews he TORTURED and MURDERED…

        • Kodie

          So but you’re still saying a person can commit atrocities, and only if they apologize sincerely to god, it’s all good. No eternal punishment for sinning against god or mankind or anything. As long as you are sorry to god, you don’t even have to apologize or make up for what you’ve done to the people you’ve done it to.

          But you think you’re a moral person, and atheists cannot have an opinion about morality? That’s like saying only you have a sense of smell because god gave you a sense of smell.

        • Kodie

          God doesn’t judge, only people do. It really bothers you that some people will DIE, finally take their last breath, ever, and not receive what YOU BELIEVE TO BE their deserved punishment.

        • MNb

          Even in this respect christianity fails. See underneath.

        • Al

          How do you know they will not be judged after they die?

        • Kodie

          The concept that they aren’t really bothers you. I don’t need mercy after death, why do you need wrath?

        • al

          You didn’t answer the question.

        • Kodie

          I think I did. You have a superstition, Al. I don’t share your superstition.

        • al

          You copped out again. You didn’t answer the question.

        • Kodie

          How do I know my mother’s back will not break if I step on a sidewalk crack. You’re not good at the reading and stuff.

        • adam

          BECAUSE he the ‘image of God’ in him.
          The ‘god’ of the bible is a horrible monster itself….

        • Al

          As you an atheist you have no grounds to call anything evil. All ya got is atoms in motion and no objective morality.

        • Kodie

          If there is no god, neither do you.

        • adam

          Yes, I know you god people have the market cornered on EVIL.

          Isaiah 45:7.

          I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the LORD do all these things.
          Why do I have no grounds to call anything evil?

          1evil adjective

          : morally bad

          : causing harm or injury to someone

          : marked by bad luck or bad events

          What objective morality do YOU have?

          Is is MORAL to punish someone mercilessly for ETERNITY for an extremely short temporal ‘crime’ of doubt?
          Is it MORAL to punish the innocent as YOUR god does?
          It is MORAL to commit genocide as YOUR god does?
          Is SLAVERY MORAL as your god SANCTIFIES?

          Slaves to YOUR god have NO objective morality outside what their god does, and lets be honest here, the god of the bible is a TERRIBLY evil monster…

        • Al

          You use the word “evil” but its not something an atheist can claim exist. So don’t use the word unless you can ground it in atheism.

          Morality is grounded in the very nature of God Himself and is manifested in His Law. The 10 commandments is an example of this.

        • adam

          Yes, I know you god people have the market cornered on EVIL.

          Isaiah 45:7.

          I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the LORD do all these things.
          Why do I have no grounds to call anything evil?

          1evil adjective

          : morally bad

          : causing harm or injury to someone

          : marked by bad luck or bad events

          What objective morality do YOU have?

          Is is MORAL to punish someone mercilessly for ETERNITY for an extremely short temporal ‘crime’ of doubt?
          Is it MORAL to punish the innocent as YOUR god does?
          It is MORAL to commit genocide as YOUR god does?
          Is SLAVERY MORAL as your god SANCTIFIES?

          Slaves
          to YOUR god have NO objective morality outside what their god does, and
          lets be honest here, the god of the bible is a TERRIBLY evil monster…

        • Kodie

          Based on what I do know about this god character, even an atheist can safely say it’s obvious god doesn’t like people. He’s been disappointed in us from the beginning, tried to off us, en masse, and continues to make it very difficult to meet his standards, but very very easy to satisfy yourself that he agrees with everything you do and you’re saved.

          If there’s a hell, it’s for everyone but a couple of people. Jesus did not come to do away with the old-fashioned burnt offerings system by sacrificing himself, he came to liquidate it. Send money.

        • MNb

          “So don’t …..”
          Who are you to command me what to do and what not, especially as it’s based on your false image of what I think? You display a deathly sinful arrogance according to your very own Holy Book.

          “The 10 commandments is an example of this.”
          The Canaanite genocide (amongst others) another.

        • adam

          What says that atheists cannot claim that evil exists?
          Of course we can say that is EVIL..

          Morality is NOT grounded in the very nature of god itself.

          Otherwise SLAVERY would still be moral
          Otherwise STONING adulterers and disobedient children to DEATH would still be moral.

          Is is MORAL to punish someone mercilessly for ETERNITY for an extremely short temporal ‘crime’ of doubt?
          Is it MORAL to punish the innocent as YOUR god does?
          It is MORAL to commit genocide as YOUR god does?
          Is SLAVERY MORAL as your god SANCTIFIES?

        • Al

          I know the meaning of the term but you can’t establish-ground evil in atheism. In fact you can’t ground anything of a moral nature in atheism. So when you tell me that genocide is evil or punishing the innocent is wrong you are just giving your opinion. Your preference. You can’t show its really, truly evil in atheism.

        • RowanVT

          Sure you can! We’re a social species that requires the group to thrive. Therefore things that cause a loss of social cohesion can be ‘evil’. These things include rape, murder and theft. Then there’s also enlightened self interest. I don’t want to be killed, so I don’t kill people. Killing people deprives them of their only chance at existence, and is therefore wrong.

        • Kodie

          God or religion is really just a communally agreed-upon set of moral opinions. If there’s a god, you still haven’t established objective universal morality, you have biased anthropocentric morality, and divide morality for example between men and women, not to mention there is no 100% established standard of morality that everyone follows. If there is no god, religions are definitely then created by humans and human moral standards, which are not agreed upon by everyone, and yet still always used by those theists to judge other people! God doesn’t judge, only people judge. Religious people justify atrocities based on their own arrogance, besides. God doesn’t punish people, so the people take it upon themselves.

        • Kodie

          Animals of all kinds are observed to have morals.

        • al

          Is it murder when a lion kills a mouse?

        • RowanVT

          Are you vegan? If not, then you already know the answer to your question.

          For an obligate carnivore like a feline, it is survival. Chimpanzees, however, do murder each other.

        • Al

          Huh? So animals are guilty of murder? If that is true then why aren’t they brought to justice either in the animal kingdom or by us?

        • RowanVT

          Chimpanzee males will sometimes search out neighboring tribes, catch a lone male, and quite literally rip him to shreds. It is not play, it is not hunting, it is not territory. It’s killing in order to kill; murder. If they were caught by the other tribe, they’d be ‘punished’.

          Just as how tribes of humans would war with each other, and not be punished by their own tribe as long as the murder was done to someone outside the tribe.

        • Kodie

          Lots of animals are put down after attacking people. Or do you want them hung by their claws and poked with a burning stick over and over for an indefinite period of time?

        • al

          Are they put down because they committed a crime?

        • RowanVT

          They are euthanised because they are a danger. But we don’t torture them.

          Humans are more humane than God. Fancy that.

        • Al

          They didn’t commit a crime. Right?

        • RowanVT

          You know how we have, in our legislature, the idea of mental competence? Animals would fall under the idea of mentally incompetent. The didn’t commit a ‘crime’ because they are incapable of plotting a crime. The owner of the dog, however, is responsible for their dog’s behaviour and IS guilty of a crime if they let a known aggressive dog be off leash.

          But that doesn’t change the fact that we still have consequences for those who do harm even if they are incapable of knowing it. For dogs, there’s muzzling, strict confinement, or euthanasia. For humans, there is strict confinement though we don’t euthanise mentally incompetent humans. This is partly because it’s a lot harder for a human in confinement to kill another human than it is for a confined aggressive dog.

          I work at a shelter. We have had severely aggressive dogs on bite quarantine before that had to be darted once it was time to euthanise them because they were so dangerous.

          We still don’t torture them. We even give them toys.

        • Kodie

          They’re put down because of human arrogance.

        • Kodie

          Is it vandalism when a mouse poops behind my stove?

        • al

          In your world it would be. Right?

        • RowanVT

          To begin with, most non-human animals are not sapient. The great apes, some cetaceans, and elephants have a sense of Self akin to ours. They have varying levels of sapience. Non-sapient animals are trying to survive. It is not vandalism because the mouse is not pooping there in order to cause malicious damage. It poops because they are poop factories. It couldn’t poop maliciously because it can’t even *want* to do so.

          Chimps, however, seek out a chimp from a neighboring troop and kill him simply to kill him. They seem to delight in ripping off his genitals. It’s fucking creepy, actually.

        • Kodie

          We’re all poop factories, and mice are no less disciplined than humans about where they poop. We’ve designated an area to poop and mice designate a place to poop. They just don’t care or acknowledge where they poop is a nuisance to humans. We don’t care about a lot of animals and freely pollute their environments as well.

        • Kodie

          I don’t think you’re mentally equipped to carry on a conversation about this. Animals having morals has nothing to do with humans or god.

        • Ron

          No, it’s not.

          murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

        • adam

          Then you LIE.
          You do not understand the meaning of the term.

          Genocide causes harm or injury to someone.

        • MNb

          As WLC convincingly has shown christians don’t have objective morality either, so according to your argument you can’t call anything evil either.

          http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites

          “Since God doesn’t issue commands to Himself, He has no moral duties to fulfill. He is certainly not subject to the same moral obligations and prohibitions that we are. For example, I have no right to take an innocent life. For me to do so would be murder. But God has no such prohibition. He can give and take life as He chooses.”
          This is the very definition of “not objective”. Replace “God” with “Hitler” and you have nazi morals. As so often, if you take your own argument seriously you have to reconvert.

        • MNb

          When I was 13 or 14 a girl in my class asked exactly this question, but regarding Pinochet (Chili and Argentina were hot issues in The Netherlands at the end of the 70’s). The two teenagers of Youth for Christ (they must have been about 17) answered with a esounding yes. I was cured of christianity for the rest of my life.

        • adam

          Obviously he JUSTIFIES the EVIL and calls it GOOD.

        • adam

          Then how did ‘god’ create his own mind in order to create his own ‘intelligence’ to interact with nature.

        • MNb

          Turtles all the way down …..

        • Al

          God is eternal. Always existed.

        • adam

          Ok, you’ve made the CLAIM, demonstrate it.

        • Al

          Can’t. No way to demonstrate that something is eternal.

        • adam

          So I have no evidence to accept your CLAIM of “God is eternal”.

          It is much more likely as history shows, that gods are based on superstition and ignorance and used by political players for purposes of power.

        • Pofarmer

          Can you demonstrate that it exists? Can you demonstrate that an immaterial, disembodied mind is possible?

        • If you have no evidence for your claim, why make it? You’re a waste of time.

        • MNb

          Prove it. Also tell me how he did it. Then you will also know how my fairies tend the flowers in my backyard.

        • Al

          Since matter cannot create an immaterial mind and a mind can only come from intelligence the only conclusion can be God.
          If you think there is no immaterial mind then that means your thinking is just the chemicals in your brain in which you have no independent control over. This would explain a lot of your comments.

        • Kodie

          You know you are your mind? You can’t have independent control over it. I guess you could do drugs or something to change your thoughts, but you are your mind, you do not exist outside of it in any capacity to control it. It controls you because it is you.

        • Al

          Is the mind the brain?

        • hector_jones

          Is the voice the vocal chords?

        • MNb

          “just the chemicals in your brain in which you have no independent control over.”
          I am my brain. In Dutch:

          http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wij_zijn_ons_brein
          Independent control assumes a homunculus – a little person within your brain pressing the buttons underneath your skull. It’s an incoherent concept.
          Plus your homunculus is immaterial. How does it interact with the material mind? Then you’ll also know how the fairies in my backyard tend the flowers.

        • The mind is what the brain does. Damage the brain, and the mind is damaged as well.

          No need for God, again.

        • Pofarmer

          Al. Show me one modern scientific study showing that our Intelligence is anything other than the product of our own brain function.

        • smrnda

          What about machine intelligence? A machine that learns and adapts does not have a brain, but is it meaningful to say it has a ‘mind?’ I’m not even sure ‘mind’ is a meaningful term really…

        • Pofarmer

          There are entire books on just cellular evolution. Try one.

        • Who cares? Certainly not you. You could answer these question by looking things up on Wikipedia.

          But since you won’t change your mind regardless of whether science has an answer or not, let’s just admit that this is a waste of time.

        • So your argument is “Science doesn’t have all the answers; therefore, God”?

        • Al

          Depends what it is. I have no problem with seeking naturalistic explanations when they are sound. Not when they are absurd and impossible.

        • Kodie

          What’s absurd and impossible? Here’s what I don’t understand – if it’s too absurd for you, a fantastical figure from outer space makes it so, and that isn’t absurd or impossible.

        • Al

          See my question above that I asked Bob.

        • adam

          God is real BECAUSE it is so absurd~ WLC

        • Al

          How so? Give me some examples why belief in God is absurd.

        • adam

          MAGIC

        • Al

          So you believe in MAGIC? ok.

        • adam

          No, I dont believe in MAGIC….

        • Al

          Then why did you write magic?

        • adam

          As an answer to your question.

        • MNb

          The proposal of an immaterial being, who by definition doesn’t have any material means available, creating matter/energy is as absurd as a square circle.

        • Al

          I don’t follow. Scripture does not say God did not have any “material means available” but that He spoke the universe into existence.

        • Kodie

          If god or god’s methods of interacting with the material world are undetectable with any type of instrument, and only rely on your thoughts to relay the information, then that is quite impossible. A force that acts or interacts with the material world in any way can be detected by material instruments. We’re only relying on your dopey brain to tell us that is what it must be because duh you can’t think of anything else.

        • Ask Tertullian.

        • Evolution, for example, is the scientific consensus. Does that count as a sound naturalistic explanation?

        • Al

          I guess. Now how does evolution or natural selection create DNA and the molecular machines in cells that are composed of over 30 parts and perform at nearly 100% efficiency?

        • Science doesn’t have a consensus explanation for abiogenesis.

          Sounds like you’re back to the old standby, “Science doesn’t have all the answers; therefore, God.”

          Is that your final answer?

        • Al

          Right now God is the best explanation. Sounds like your falling back on the idea that given enough time science will come up with an idea to explain how life began no matter how absurd it is. So long as its put in scientific terms it must be true even if absurd,

        • Heck, “God did it” is an explanation for anything. There isn’t anything that I can’t prove God didn’t cause to happen. And, being unfalsifiable, it is a useless explanation.

          Sorry–“God dun it” isn’t the best explanation; it’s the worst. Science explains things. Religion never has.

        • adam

          Somebody named Bob put it very well:

          “God did it” is simply a repackaging of “I don’t know.” It tells us nothing new. I’m no smarter after hearing “God did it” than before. It tamps down one set of questions, but others pop up: Who is God and how does he act in the world? Is he one of the thousands of gods that humans
          have already formed religions around or someone new? Why did God do what he did? What natural laws did God use to do it, and what laws did he suspend? How can we communicate with him? And, most importantly: how do we know that there was a supernatural cause and not a natural one?

        • Al

          I didn’t say for just anything. But for the origin of life. Then give me your explanation and will see if its falsifiable.

          Scripture explains things to. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” Gen 1:1. That my friend explains that the universe had a beginning and God caused it. This was true way before Einstein and Hubble confirmed it.

        • What I hear you saying is that the lack of a scientific explanation for abiogenesis is a requirement for your Christian belief. if there is a scientific consensus for abiogenesis, you will reject your faith. Is that right?

          If you wouldn’t reject your faith, then don’t waste our time with this mental masturbation.

        • Al

          Lets have the guys in the white coats explain the details how abiogenesis works and then go from there. If its absurd will you reject it?

        • Why are we discussing this issue if you don’t much care whether there’s a scientific explanation one way or the other?

          If I think the consensus view is absurd I will (obviously) accept it. The only theories that aren’t absurd to some extent are the ones that we’ve simply become so accustomed to that they don’t surprise us anymore.

          Teeny germs killing people? Black holes? A Big Bang? DNA? Yep, all absurd.

        • adam

          Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab

          Robert Roy Britt | January 11, 2009 10:49am ET

          The researchers, at the Scripps Research Institute, created molecules that self-replicate and even evolve and compete to win or lose. If that sounds exactly like life, read on to learn the controversial and thin distinction.

          Know your RNA

          To understand the remarkable breakthrough, detailed Jan. 8 in the early online edition of the journal Science, you have to know a little about molecules called RNA and DNA.

          But that’s exactly what the Scripps researchers did. Then things went surprisingly further.

          ‘Immortalized’

          Specifically, the researchers synthesized RNA enzymes that can replicate themselves without the help of any proteins or other cellular components, and the process proceeds indefinitely. “Immortalized” RNA, they call it, at least within the limited conditions of a laboratory.

          More significantly, the scientists then mixed different RNA enzymes that had replicated, along with some of the raw material they were working with, and let them compete in what’s sure to be the next big hit: “Survivor: Test Tube.”

          Remarkably, they bred.

          And now and then, one of these survivors would screw up, binding with some other bit of raw material it hadn’t been using. Hmm. That’s exactly what life forms do …

          When these mutations occurred, “the resulting recombinant enzymesalso were capable of sustained replication, with the most fit replicators growing in number to dominate the mixture,” the scientists report.

          The “creatures” — wait, we can’t call them that! — evolved, with some “species” winning out.

          http://www.livescience.com/3214-life-created-lab.html

        • MNb

          Absurd is a subjective term. I don’t accept or reject things because they are absurd. I reject inconsistence, incoherence and logical fallacies. You provide lots of it, which is why you’re such an excellent defender of atheism.
          I accept abiogenesis if a) it’s a coherent and consistent theory and b) it’s backed up by observations.
          You’re right that scientists haven’t delivered yet. As I have told you very often by now god doesn’t logically follow. He only does when you have satisfied two demands. I have given them to you several times. You prefer to neglect them, which means you’re dishonest. As such you become a better defender of atheism with every single comment of yours.

        • Pofarmer

          Al, what is life? Life is chemistry. The very first life is going to be fairly simple chemistry. When science figures it out you are going to look stupid-er.

        • Al

          This chemistry involves information of the highest order. That’s what needs to be explained. Where did it come from to begin with?

        • Pofarmer

          Al, the best science available suggests life didn’t start with DNA, maybe not even RNA, it’s a lot to sort through, yes, but once you have the very rudimentarh life, natural selection takes over, and you’re off to the races.

        • Al

          The reason that the origin of life is eluding scientists is that the more we know about life and its complexity the more stress it puts on how to explain it from natural processes alone.

        • Careful–you’re getting close to saying that abiogenesis will never be explained. I want to see you put some skin in the game. Otherwise, this discussion is pointless.

        • adam

          You are wrong, the more we know about life and its complexity the EASIER it is to explain from natural processes alone.

        • Crystals can be delicate, complex, and beautiful. Is information or intelligence required to form them? Or are simple forces of physics sufficient to explain them?

        • RowanVT

          Yeah… except that genesis says that the earth was created before the Sun… which is patently false.

        • adam

          Odin and his brothers had set up the sky and stars, but otherwise they left the heavens unlit. Long afterwards, one of the descendants of those first two people that the brothers created had two children. Those two children were so beautiful that their father named the son Moon and the daughter Sol. The gods were jealous already and, when they heard of the father’s arrogance, they pulled the brother and sister up to the sky and set them to work. Sol drives the chariot that carries the sun across the skies, and she drives so fast across the skies of the northland because she is chased by a giant wolf each day. Moon likewise takes a course across the sky each night, but not so swiftly because he is not so harried.

          How is THIS any less True than you bible STORY?

        • MNb

          2000 years ago Thor was the best explanation for thunder and lightning.

        • adam

          MAGIC is the ‘best explaination’…………
          Superstition and ignorance…..

        • RowanVT

          Perform at nearly 100% efficiency?…. AHAHAHAHAHA

          citation required. From a scientific journal. Showing me your toilet paper doesn’t count.

        • Pofarmer

          Al, thousands of years ago theists were saying the same thing. The Earth rotates? That’s crazy talk, everyone knows that the Angels hide the sun behind a mountain at night, and on, and on, and on. It was once thought that comments originated from between the earth and the moon and were flung by an angry God as a warning to mankind. You are just the latest in an ever receding tide of ignorance.

        • Kodie

          It strikes me just that your mind is not adept enough to handle it. To you, it’s someone’s mind, certainly not yours. You’re not claiming that it’s your mind, you admit therefore how inept you are to comprehend just how it happens. You simultaneously give your own mind more and less credit to accomplish what your mind cannot comprehend without your mind! So of course it’s a smarter mind, not a stupider, less conscious mind than yours. That just illustrates how little you know.

        • Al

          Glad your here to help me out. Is the mind the same thing as the brain?

        • adam

          What happens to the mind when the brain is damaged with say Alzheimers?

          The ‘mind’ is a function of the brain.

        • InDogITrust

          No, because i was enjoying the blue sky, but if you’d asked me that question, i’d have answered, some of it yes, some of it no.

        • RowanVT

          Yup! 😀 Awesome stuff, that forces of nature. 😀

        • Kodie

          Wben humans intervene, it looks like one thing, and when nature is left alone without human intervention, it is other organisms taking over.

          I don’t know what’s so difficult about that. When I look out the window, I see 3 other structures than the one I live in, a fence, a parking lot, some wire poles and wire, and overgrown grass, trees, litter, and dog shit.

        • MNb

          Hi Kodie! I have missed you (seriously). And you return with a bang. Lemme tell you – Al is almost as much fun as Jenna.

        • Kodie

          Hi MNb. I lied, though, today, someone came to mow the grass over the litter and dog shit.

        • Greg G.

          At least you have a clearer view of the dog shit. Welcome back, you prodigal poster!

        • Al

          Our world is far more complex than a car, a parking lot etc and yet we are asked to believe its all the result of the mindless forces of nature. This is patently absurd.

        • Kodie

          It’s just patently unbelievable to a simple mind. It’s absurd to think a magical fantastical figure consciously designed it for you to appreciate.

        • Welcome back! Like the Lone Ranger, when someone needs slapping down, you return out of nowhere to deliver said slapdown.

        • Pofarmer

          Our world is really not that “complex” in the mechanical organic sense until you get into life. The “World” consists of the products of physics and chemistry. “Life” consists of the products of physcics, chemistry, and evolution. Evolution explains complexity of life. What other part of nature seems too complex for you to grasp?

        • Your common sense insight into the absurd isn’t much help at the frontier of science.

          Don’t know about cosmology or evolution or other aspects of science? Read a textbook. It won’t be easy (remember what I said about it violating your common sense), but you’ll be a wiser man for it.

          And perhaps you won’t say as many stupid things.

        • hector_jones

          Your religious beliefs are patently absurd.

        • al kimeea

          IOW, I deny reality and substitute my own

          Your incredulity is not evidence for any deity. There are 0 contemporary references for buddy jebus, none. Only the BuyBull and the later shills for the corporation. The Bibble is the result of cobbling together earlier myths with a different spin on them.

          However, seeing as we’re all descended from the Noah clan it does explain our species violent tendencies towards each other as a result of inbreeding.

        • hector_jones

          Hey, we might be neighbors.

        • Kodie

          I kind of wish we really were.

        • hector_jones

          Awwww

        • Greg G.

          Yes, that sounds like my yard where I lived before I got married, too.

        • hector_jones

          LOL it’s the “look out the window” argument for God, also known as the “look at the trees” argument. Come on, Al. Let’s see your best argument for God, not your worst.

          I really have to wonder about an ‘intelligent designer’ who is also the creator of the entire universe and infinitely powerful, who came up with the idea of bowel movements. I can just picture God in front of his drawing board working on that one and telling his angels how awesome shit is going to be. And just to show what a great designer He is, He’s going to make sure that shit really really stinks. Thank God for shit.

        • adam

          The mindless forces of nature sure look pretty good compared to the ‘mindful’ mass murderer and monster of the bible.

        • MNb

          I gave it above. The fact that you ask again confirms it. But I’m happy to repeat the most important point, because it’s the only one you bring up.

          “Truth is that which corresponds to reality.”
          Our reality is material. You have defined your god as an immaterial being. Hence it does not correspond to our reality and according to your own definition is not true.
          QED.

          (Actually it is a bit more complicated, but for now it will do)

          Also the fact that you dishonestly neglect the evidence I presented above shows that your brand of theism is combined with moral inferiority. That’s not evidence, but it should make anyone suspect.

        • Al

          Reality is more than material. You believe in numbers don’t ya? Love? Those are not material objects yet we believe they exist.
          Do you believe in justice?

        • adam

          Full Definition of CONCEPT
          1
          : something conceived in the mind : thought, notion
          2
          : an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances

          These like ‘god’ are concepts of the mind.

        • MNb

          Love and justice are impossible without the material. As soon as your brains disappear you are not capable of love and justice anymore in any way.
          Say you claim you love X. How do we know? Because you say so (language), your behaviour, your facial expressions and your body language. These are all material. Mutatis mutandis the same for justice. Your god being immaterial does not have these means available. Hence saying that your god loves you or will execute justice is as meaningless as saying that the roof of your house will.
          Numbers are a bit tricky. But math is just a language (it has a grammar), developed as a tool to describe the material reality.
          So yes, love, justice and numbers belong to our material reality. Hence I don’t need to “believe” in them. I believe nothing.

        • Al

          So justice depends on a person’s brain and ceases to exist when a human being dies?

          Do numbers, justice and love have material properties?

        • MNb

          Justice and love (the human version) cease to exist when all human beings die. They don’t belong to “a” human being, just like a country does not cease to exist when “a” human being dies. When all Dutchies die (or become German for that matter) The Netherlands cease to exist too. Are you going to argue that The Netherlands are immaterial too? That would be fun.
          I have answered your second question above regarding numbers: they belong to math and math is a language. As for justice and love, according to neuroscientists they have. If you want to know which you should study neurobiology.

        • Pofarmer

          In a way, the idea of a country is just as immaterial as love or justice.

        • MNb

          I’m not an idealist in the philosophical (especially Platonic) meaning of the world.

        • smrnda

          This makes me think about nations which have had periods of non-existence. Poland did not exist for a while. Does Taiwan exist? Depends on who you ask today…

        • Philmonomer

          Reality is more than material. You believe in numbers don’t ya? Love? Those are not material objects yet we believe they exist. Do you believe in justice?

          Humans have created words that describe the relationships of things to each other. But that doesn’t mean those relationships “exist” in any sort of independent, objective sense, apart from the things themselves.

        • smrnda

          Numbers are part of an axiomatic system invented by humans called mathematics. They appear to be modeling the physical world, but a number of issues in mathematics (axiom of choice or various forms of geometries, undecidable propositions) demonstrate that mathematics is a formal axiomatic system.

          Love – love is a label we assign to emotions. We feel emotions because of things that happen in the world that we can observe.

          Could you define “art” for me?

        • Do you bear the burden of proof to show that unicorns don’t exist? Or would the null hypothesis be that they don’t?

        • Al

          Hi Bob. Welcome back. Looking forward to your “brilliant” posts again.

          If I believed unicorns existed then the burden would be on me.

        • Thanks, Al. I always enjoy engaging with your “brilliant” comments.

          We agree on the unicorns. Indeed, if you make any extraordinary claim, you have the burden of proof.

          Shouldn’t be a problem though for the Christian, right? They have evidence by the carload.

        • Al

          Christianity could not have survived for 2000 years and had billions upon billions believe in it unless there was evidence by the carload.

        • Greg G.

          Hinduism and Buddhism have existed for much longer. It doesn’t seem that actual evidence is a factor in the longevity of a religion. No religion is backed up by solid, unambiguous evidence.

        • Al

          I agree. Longevity alone is not enough. What exactly is “solid, unambiguous evidence. ?

        • Greg G.

          Evidence that is verifiable and not open to more than one possible meaning or interpretation.

        • Al

          Then you are not talking about anything I know. Even in science the evidence is “open to more than one possible meaning or interpretation.”

        • Greg G.

          It’s impossible to talk about anything you know.

        • Pofarmer

          “True Believers” Eric Hoffer.Great read.

        • Al

          What does this book have to do with Christianity?

        • Pofarmer

          An awful, awful lot. It has to do generically with Mass Movements, including religion.

        • Al

          I guess I will have to take your word for it.

        • Pofarmer

          You should read it.

        • Al

          Adam’s comment from the book reminds me of you and your other atheistic friends here.

        • Pofarmer

          Uhm, Al, fuck you, you ignorant slut.

        • Pofarmer

          Ah, that comment isn’t from the book.

        • adam

          “True-believer syndrome”

          In his book The Psychic Mafia, Keene told of his partner, a psychic medium named “Raoul” in the book. Some in their congregation still believed that Raoul was genuine even after he openly admitted that he was a fake. Keene wrote “I knew how easy it was to make people believe a lie, but I didn’t expect the same people, confronted with the lie, would choose it over the truth. … No amount of logic can shatter a faith consciously based on a lie.”

          According to The Skeptic’s Dictionary, an example of this syndrome is evidenced by an event in 1988 when James Randi, at the request of an Australian news program, coached stage performer José Alvarez to pretend he was channelling a two-thousand-year-old spirit named “Carlos”. Even after it was revealed to be a fictional
          character created by Randi and Alvarez, many people continued to believe that “Carlos” was real.[4] Randi commented: “no amount of evidence, no matter how good it is or how much there is of it, is ever going to convince the true believer to the contrary.”[6]

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome

        • Cuz old Al sure ain’t gonna do any research. Not how he rolls.

        • That’s what I say about Hinduism! It’s far older than Christianity, and I wonder if it’s had more adherents over the years. Ya gotta have lots of evidence for that to be true.

          Strangely, though, no one converts after I tell them that.

        • Greg G.

          Holy Cow!

        • Kodie

          Why don’t you provide the carload of evidence that convinces you.

        • adam

          Obviously it has, so is the POWER of POWER and PROPAGANDA………

          Indoctrination is a cruel process that robs people of the DESIRE to think for themselves.

        • hector_jones

          You bear the burden of proof for non-Zeusism being true. So far I have not seen any.

      • hector_jones

        What is your proof that Zeus isn’t true?

  • And that’s another evidence for Yahweh being a magnified reflection of his people’s fears, desire for power, and rationalization of an inferiority complex when it came to confronting much stronger nations such as Egyptians, Assyrians, etc.

  • Mick

    Al certainly messed up the comments section of this post.

    • He can’t help it. Saying crazy meaningless stuff is like Tourette’s for him.

  • Pofarmer

    Oh, 666 comments.

    • We wouldn’t have reached the number of the Beast without Al’s contribution.

      Thanks, Al, for helping us serve the Dark Lord®.

      • al

        No problem. Now can you send me a case of Excedrin? I can take the nonsense only so long before the headaches come.

        • RowanVT

          Sorry, we used it all up after banging our heads against the wall because that accomplishes more than trying to hold a conversation with you.

        • al

          I’ll bet. lol

        • RowanVT

          Maybe if you’d answer questions, provide evidence, and stop being an idiot we wouldn’t have to dent the walls.

        • Since you aren’t here to learn anything, you’re welcome to leave.

          I think you’ve run through your repertoire of apologetics. We’ve heard them all, so thanks. You can go.

        • adam

          Just when are you going to demonstrate your god??

  • RowanVT

    Hey Al!

    Why are you avoiding all my questions?

    Do you think rape is bad?
    Do you think slavery is bad?

    • al

      rape is bad and so is slavery. Now tell where in atheism its says these things are bad?

      • Kodie

        You never answered my question I asked a couple times – are you Jenna Black?

      • MNb

        Then why did your god approve of it in the OT? Like in Lev 25:44-46 and Numbers 31:7-18 ?
        Btw I asked you another question you prefer to ignore. Do you rejoice at the prospect of sitting hands in hands with this guy?

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss

        While his victims, according to you, get eternally tortured after all their suffering in Auschwitz?
        I’m curious, you see. I’d really like to know how sick your mind is. We already agreed that you’re a pathological case.

        • Al

          Slavery was an institution in all ancient societies and there was nothing in place to help slaves if they were set free in large numbers. They Isrealites were to treat their slaves with respect though. In many cases it was better to be a slave than a free man.

          Now tell where in atheism its says these things are bad?

        • MNb

          “there was nothing in place to help slaves”
          Oh? God wasn’t around to tell his Chosen Ones? Like he was around to tell them to commit genocide and rape?

          “They Isrealites were to treat their slaves with respect though.”
          With the approval of your god. So why do you condemn it?

          “Now tell where in atheism its says these things are bad?”
          Why do you ask questions when you already know the answer?

        • RowanVT

          Why didn’t God say “Teach your slaves useful skills, and then free them, and then take no more slaves.”?

          Or “You may not take or have any slaves in the future.”

          Instead he *promoted* the practice of slavery, via selling your daughter.

          And yet you are against slavery, while God is okay with it. Are you condemning God for immorality?

          Atheists get morals from empathy and enlightened self interest. I don’t want to be property, so I don’t treat people as property.

        • Pofarmer

          Atheism doesn’t say anythinv about it. Humanism dies though, empathy does. You ars such a disshonest moron. We’ve already been all through this.

        • al

          Thank for admitting what other atheists refuse to. This is why atheism is so futile that it cannot identify evil within itself.

        • MNb

          Now could you answer my question? Do your rejoice at the prospect of sitting hands in hands eternally in Heaven with this guy,

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss

          singing hymns for god with the words “f**k the jewish victims – they now are in a place worse than Auschwitz forever?”

        • al

          You should be happy about this. If God can forgive him, he can forgive you also.

        • adam

          Hear ye, hear ye all you baby rapers, God can forgive you.

          Mass murders note, the god of the bible is a mass murder and understands the joy you get from it…..and He would like to see you in Heave with him, you can talk about ‘old times’…

        • adam

          Just when are you going to demonstrate your god?

        • MNb

          I am no asking what I should do or not do. I don’t need you to tell me. You’re an arrogant jerk and as such violates Jesus’ main message.
          I’d like to know whether you rejoice at the prospect.

        • adam

          When are you going to demonstrate this god of yours?

          We would like to know why he likes baby rapers and murderers more than doubters.

        • Atheism is not a moral system. Isn’t supposed to be. Neither is chemistry. Only an idiot rails at chemistry for not providing an answer to moral questions.

          Ditto for atheism.

        • al

          This is what I thought. How lame of a system it is that it can provide no moral guidance for the atheist.

        • What you thought? You’ve been schooled on this before. How forgetful are you?

          There’s no mileage in pointing out that atheism isn’t a moral system. It’s not supposed to be, moron.

          Atheists don’t look to atheism or chemistry or carpentry for moral wisdom. There’s none there.

        • Al

          Ok. I got that. Lets see if there are any benefits to atheism. What are its positive features? How does it help a person become a better human being?

        • Kodie

          No, you don’t got that.

        • So you’re an idiot then? You should leave.

        • RowanVT

          I’m a little curious, are we dealing with a single Al or 3? Because there’s Al in blue with the private setting so we can’t see what else he comments on, there’s Al in gray and al in gray.

        • MNb

          Al told me he is not capable of managing a computer mouse to scroll down a bit. So I suppose he is not always capable of using the log in function either.

        • Pofarmer

          I had the same thought last night.

        • Kodie

          There’s Al in blue who has to log in, and there’s (I’ve been assuming) the same Al and al in gray that is Al not logged in and posting as a guest, so he has to type his name in the field every post. He uses the shift key for his initial sometimes and not sometimes. I don’t know why he doesn’t just log in, but at least he’s typing in a consistent name.

        • Ron

          “Al” represents the holy trinity of apologetics: alexia, aliteracy and alias.

        • Kodie

          I don’t know what happened with Jenna Black/Codygirl, but when I asked if Codygirl was Jenna Black, she said Yes. I have asked Al several times, no answer. The writing style is not the same, the topics are all the same. A lot of Christians are the same, but I am still wondering why Al doesn’t just say No. How long has Al been posting?

        • Ron

          He’s been posting here for at least two or three weeks now. However, his style is remarkably similar to that of the three assclowns apologists (Asmondius, Lucius and Justas399) who preceded him. And then there’s Miguel de la Pena.

        • MNb

          See above. How does christianity help a person become a better human being? Like this guy?

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss

          See, if I’ll ever convert to your brand of christianity he will be my role model. Salvation and forgiveness guaranteed.

        • adam

          Don’t forget about the baby rapers.
          God WANTS those baby rapers in HEAVEN.
          As long as they don’t DOUBT god…

        • MNb

          At least my atheism prevents me becoming like you. That’s a very positive feature.

        • adam

          Truth…..

        • adam

          By fighting the DELUSIONALISM named religion.

        • Ron

          Whoa, hold up a second.

          There’s great stuff to be learned from Robert Persig’s Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values. Gems like the following:

          “When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.”

          “The real purpose of the scientific method is to make sure nature hasn’t misled you into thinking you know something you actually don’t know.”

        • Pofarmer

          I’d like to upvote this comment about 50 times.

        • RowanVT

          Atheism is NOT A SYSTEM. It is a statement of belief regarding the non-existence of deities.

          Just as NOT collecting stamps is NOT a hobby.

        • al

          Got that. Can you tell me all the benefits that atheism gives you?

        • Kodie

          Eternal salvation and grace without having to grovel.

        • RowanVT

          Can you tell me all the benefits that not believing in leprechauns gives you?

          What’s that? It’s not even the sort of thing that seeks to give benefits at all? Weeeeeeird.

          On a strictly personal level, I no longer have that feeling of abject terror that I’ll have pissed off the magical skyfairy in some way. I view my path to atheism as intellectual honesty. I wanted to believe in at least something. Reincarnation. A soul. I do not enjoy the idea that I will cease to be someday. It’s kinda scary (though not as scary as the idea of fire forever). But as I studied, as I searched, I realised that without evidence, any such claims are pure fantasy… and fantasy isn’t real.

          I want to be part of reality, so the religious beliefs had to go.

        • al

          Ok. So there are no positive benefits to atheism.

          Your atheism is fantasy. So far we have seen it offers no moral guidance and no other benefits for your life. If anything this tells me it degrades you as human being because it ultimately tells you have no ultimate worth. Think about that.

        • Kodie

          Hey Al? You’re a dick.

        • Positive benefits? Most people think that believing true things is a benefit. Not you, I realize, but most people.

        • al

          If atheism is true then what are the positive benefits from it?

        • Just told you.

        • adam

          Just when are you going to demonstrate your god??

        • Pofarmer

          What are the benefits of Atheism? Chemistry instead if Alchemy. Sciience instead of superstition. Psychology instead of allegory and demons. Sociology instead of Dogma. Mathematics instead of priestly declarations,. Astronomy instead of Astrology. Medicine instead of exorcism. The benefits of Athiesm to mankind are huge. For me personally? It opened up my mind to the world and the universe, it opened up exploration of what it means to be human, what makes people tick, why we are what we are, how we relate to everything else in this planet. You can take your uselsess fucking outdated superstitious nonsense and shove it directly up your ass you disshonest, ignorant, proselytizing, useless, mindless, arrogant, twit.

        • Eloquently stated!

        • Pofarmer

          Well, Shakespear it ain’t.

        • Al

          None of these things are the result of atheism. Try again.

        • Kodie

          Atheism is the lack of belief in god or gods. There simply is not enough, not any really, evidence for a god, much less your god. All of these things listed is a product of removing the religious barriers to reality, and the objective approach to discovering things as they really are. Atheism is not a doctrine, but removing the fantasy of your magic man saving a non-physical part of you after you die from another place that doesn’t exist helps a lot toward human progress. You try again, asshole.

        • SuperMark

          Hey “Al” why don’t you end the dishonesty and tell us what you’re actually about? It is clear that there is more than one of you. If you truly are a christian then you should know that deliberately deceiving people is a “sin”. So how many of you are there? Are you all teenagers? The majority of you seem to be very naive and uneducated.

        • adam

          Deceiving people, like with baby rapers and mass murderers

          are NOT accountable for their actions if they are ‘christian’.

          Jesus takes their sins, so Al isnt ‘sinning’, and if he was, he is forgiven.

          All he wants to do is JUSTIFY the EVIL that religion is, because he worships the Creator of EVIL…and wants everyone else to as well..

          Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
          7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

        • RowanVT

          Actually, I’d say they at least partly are. They were advanced by people who did NOT accept the pat answers of “God did it” and “Demons, because the bible says so.”

        • adam

          So when are YOU going to demonstrate that YOUR god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • You drop superstition, and all sorts of cool things are possible. Pofarmer made an eloquent and clear statement of that. Too bad you’re too closed minded to understand.

        • RowanVT

          It makes human life *more* important, because this is all I have or will ever have. The same for everyone else. I don’t get to live forever in the God version of Disneyland and I don’t get to be absolved of wrongdoing through human sacrifice.

          This knowledge makes me MORE moral, because I have to work hard in THIS life, this ONLY life, to make it be as good as possible because I am alive.

        • with the Christian view, what’s the rush? I’ll have trillions of years to read Shakespeare’s sonnets, learn the piano, or apologize for that wrong I did.

        • MNb

          Translation: the only reason why Al doesn’t go out on a killing and raping spree is his fear for god. But the day god whispers in his ear that he can go on the loose …..
          That’s supposed to be the highest moral system written down ever.

        • adam

          Sick and TWISTED…

        • wtfwjtd

          Holy Shit! That’s brilliant!

        • adam

          It DOES get right to the point.

        • MNb

          And it’s standard apologetics:

          http://www.reasonablefaith.org/is-the-foundation-of-morality-natural-or-supernatural-the-craig-harris

          “Take God out of the picture, and all you seem to be left with is an ape-like creature on a speck of dust beset with delusions of moral grandeur.”
          “So if God does not exist, why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything?”
          “On the atheistic view the rapist who chooses to flout the “herd morality” is doing nothing more serious than acting unfashionably”
          This sounds nicer, but is essentially what Al argues for.

        • hector_jones

          What’s true and what’s false isn’t based on positive or negative benefits. Atheism is more likely true than Christianity because atheism is consistent with the evidence we actually have. Christianity otoh lacks evidence for its assertions and flatly contradicts the evidence we have. Your religion is a fantasy, and not a very appealing one at that.

        • Pofarmer

          Hold on Hector. Are you saying just because something comforts us it isn’t necesarily true? Don’t you think that’s a bit radical?

        • Kodie

          You don’t have ultimate worth, but that you want to doesn’t make it true. The only benefit of Christianity seems to be to tell you what you want to hear, and give you nothing. You don’t have morality, you have obedience. You don’t have everlasting life, or vengeance upon your enemies. You get to be a fool for Jesus, and a pawn for your church, and really, really ignorant about reality. I am not an atheist for the “benefits” other than the freedom from such a delusion as yours. I can’t believe what you say, I’m not trying very hard to deny something that’s true. I’m using my brain to simply dismiss what you say as ridiculous. It’s not that it could benefit me or not, it’s just a silly superstition and I prefer to live in the light of reality. I cannot make myself believe, and if there is a god, he’s sent poor representation. You are not an indication of a good god, or a smart god, or a perfect god, or a merciful god. Is your god a sloppy god? A tedious and uneducated god? A hormonal teenaged god? Certainly not a being whose love I care about, whose judgment I realistically fear, or one I long to spend eternity with.

          If you are alive, at least part of the universe can’t help but acknowledge you and might even love you, but you want it all. You don’t value this part of the universe. It’s not good enough for you. This is your family and friends. You are greedy, you don’t think this is enough. You don’t think a couple decades or close to a century of this is enough. You do not have humility, you have arrogance, and delusion.

        • adam

          As if there is nothing FANTASY about thinking you have a personal relationship with a guy whose been dead for 2000 years or that you can be a mass murderer or a baby raper and sit next to Jesus in heaven so that you can listen to doubters being tortured UNMERCIFULLY for ETERNITY…..

          A sick and twisted fantasy of Sadists and Masochists, but a fantasy none the less.

          Just when are you going to demonstrate your god?

        • MNb

          1. I’m not a bigot like you, condemning all and everyone who doesn’t follow your views based on an outdated book (see your opinion on abortion, sex education and homosexuality);
          2. I’m not stupid like you, defending untenable views on science only because else your worldview would fall apart;
          3. I’m not dishonest like you, preferring to neglect, to use double standards, to embrace logical fallacies and to straightforwardly lie again only because else your worldview would fall apart;
          4. I don’t have to worry about afterlife but instead can totally focus on making this world a better place.

        • adam

          Just when are you going to demonstrate your god?

        • SuperMark

          Not being scared of a hateful and judgmental god that might send me to hell if I piss it off.

        • adam

          Can YOU demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • hector_jones

          You don’t get anything.

        • Pofarmer

          Al, you goddamn stupid twit. All Athiesm says is that I don’t believe in your God. Now, that means that also don’t automatically accept your moral system. This does not mean there is no other moral system available.

        • Al

          There is no moral system in atheism. There is in Christianity.

        • Kodie

          Good luck in hell then you liar.

        • Correct. Sure took you long enough to figure that out. You’re like that clueless guy in the Garfield cartoons.

          Next you’ll tell us that there’s oxygen in air.

        • RowanVT

          A moral system that includes instructions for selling your daughter as a sex slave, and instructions to either kill rape victims or let the rapist buy them and marry them.

          What a lovely moral system that is!

        • Al

          That is not true and you know it. Start with the 10 commandments or the teachings of Christ. Here you will find the highest moral teachings ever.

        • Yeah, the 10 Cs. Great stuff. Nothing about rape, slavery, polygamy, and genocide, though.

          It’s cool that it has “don’t covet.” That’s kinda useful.

          The first 4 are crap and are overridden by the U.S. Constitution. You lose.

        • al

          The 10 commandments have a greater positive impact on mankind through the centuries than anything else. How about something atheism that can match that? Or Humanism? Make sure its something original.

        • How about the U.S. Constitution, the world’s first secular constitution, and one of America’s greatest gifts to the world?

          The outdated dictates of a Bronze Age god? Not so much.

        • al

          Do you think the Bible had some influence on the Constitution?

        • Nope. Democracy didn’t come from the Bible. Neither did the idea of a secular society.

        • Al

          Didn’t say it did. I asked if the Constitution was influenced by the Bible.

        • adam

          Of course it was:

        • And I answered you.

        • Al

          You didn’t answer the question.

        • SuperMark

          like it fucking matters!

        • adam

          I answered YOU.

          When are YOU going to answer US?

          When are YOU going to demonstrate that YOUR gods magic is REAL and not imaginary.

        • Al

          Ok. One more time. The resurrection of Christ;
          “3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared toJames, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
          ” I Corinthians 15

          This eyewitness account proves 2 things.
          1- God’s existence. Only God can raise the dead. No natural forces can.
          2- It proves that what Christ taught was true.

        • SuperMark

          the bible is not evidence it is a book!!! WTF!!!

        • Pofarmer

          Good luck. Al is a no hit wonder.

        • al

          Its a record of the evidence. Much like a history book that describes a battle is evidence it happened,

        • SuperMark

          i guess it’s also proof that zombies are real. history books don’t have magic in them.

        • Al

          Lots of ancient histories have supernatural things in them.

        • SuperMark

          so then why do you not accept the Koran as “real” under the same logic? or the book of mormon???

        • Al

          There are no miracles in the Koran and it makes false statements about Christ.

        • SuperMark

          HA! you clearly haven’t read the Koran!!! so every one who disagrees with you is wrong. what a fun little box you must live in. the book of revelation makes false statements about “Christ” too. but that doesn’t count right?

        • Al

          Where in “the book of revelation makes false statements about “Christ””

        • SuperMark

          you should read it more closely.

        • adam

          Prove that the Koran makes false statements about Christ.

          But be honest, you’ve never even READ the Koran, have you?

        • When the Koran and the Bible disagree, why side with the Bible? I mean, besides the fact that you want it to be true.

        • adam

          LIAR

          Of course there are miracles in the Koran…

          Tell us the TRUTH, you have never even READ the Koran have you?

          When are YOU going to demonstrate that YOUR god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • Al

          Ok. Where are they? Chapter and verse please.

        • adam

          You made the claim, back it up.

          Honestly, are you BEARING FALSE witness against a book that you’ve never read completely?

          BTW, we are still ALL WAITING for you to demonstrate this ‘god’ of yours…

        • Kodie

          You’re biased, you can’t make that judgment.

        • Al

          everyone is biased including you.

        • Kodie

          Your claims have no more evidence, so you are just like a Muslim.

        • adam

          So the Iliad PROVES Zeus is real?

          Then why arent YOU a Zeusian?

          Now WHEN are you going to demonstrate that YOUR god is real and not IMAGINARY?…

        • Al

          Be my guest. Prove that ” Iliad PROVES Zeus is real”.

        • Kodie

          After you prove the bible proves god is real. Hint – that’s different than posting a passage from the bible that says god is real.

        • Kodie

          But you don’t believe all of them. You know why you don’t believe other religious claims, but I find it really just a matter of who got to you first. The supernatural is not an element of history, but science fiction and myth.

        • Al

          My point is that ancient historians record supernatural things and historians don’t don’t discount their works.

        • Kodie

          Um, real historians do.

        • Pofarmer

          I don’t know how anyone gets the idea that historians take supernatural tales at face value.

        • Greg G.

          They discount the supernatural events but may accept the natural events if there is corroborating evidence. There is corroborating writings for all the things Jesus did in the gospels but they come from fictional accounts of fictional characters. Mark made up the Jesus story.

        • Wrong again.

          Or perhaps it’s me. Show me where the consensus view of historians is that some miracle–any miracle–happened in history.

        • And yet the history book has nothing supernatural in it. Poor comparison. You lose.

        • adam

          No it’s not a record of the evidence.
          Like you said, people dont rise from the dead.

          When are YOU going to demonstrate that YOUR god is real and not just imaginary?

        • Al

          People don’t come back again to life by natural processes. Only the power can do that.

        • or not.

        • Kodie

          Why do you think anyone is claiming that Jesus came back to life by a natural process. I’m pretty sure you’re Jenna Black.

        • adam

          Well then DEMONSTRATE this power you are claiming…

          Otherwise we will all know that you dont know what you are talking about.

        • RowanVT

          Then please have God resurrect my first dog. That was a truly awesome dog, and I’d certainly be a believer if my first dog reappeared as a puppy in my living room. Oh, please also have God change one aspect: Don’t let my pup loose his catahoula coloring. His spots were pretty, I was very sad when he turned black at 2 years old.

        • Wait–is Al taking requests?? Cool!

        • RowanVT

          Well, didn’t Al ask us once what would specifically let us believe, or am I misremembering?

          Either way, if my dog resurrected I’d be more willing to believe Jesus did even without actually seeing Jesus resurrect. I think my dog coming back from the dead as a puppy would count as a completely supernatural miracle.

        • But that would be relatively easy to fool you with.

        • RowanVT

          Not really, he had very unique markings, what with being a catahoula mix. I have puppy photos of him so I’d be able to compare them for any pattern deviations. Plus, if he was my dog all over again, he’d have the same personality, already know his name, all the tricks I’d taught him some of which can be very difficult to teach a dog (abstraction is hard!) and be a functioning seizure-alert dog. He’d also try to eat my cats. Hmmn. Addendum; he must spontaneously appear in front of me while I’m at work so that no cat eating ensues.

        • Kodie

          It’s an ancient text with no corroboration anywhere, derived from storytelling and cobbled together from other local myths. Your pseudo-scholars do their very hardest to try to draw associations with history, but the book itself is no historical record of any eyewitnesses to any miracles including resurrection. Since there is no corroboration, all your pseudo-scholars can do is interpret the same bible over and over and over again. Nothing new in 2000 years, no historical evidence.

        • Al

          Not true. The gospels and Acts have been proven to be accurate by over 70 historical details. Josephus confirms a number of items from the New Testament.

        • Greg G.

          Josephus confirms most of them because Luke copied from Josephus. There are several places that show that Luke took information from Josephus and Josephus only and not the other way around. Acts 21:38 where the Paul is mistaken for the Egyptian is a smoking gun because the passage takes information from three different accounts that are close together in Josephus and conflates them.

          This goes to show that you believe in the Bible for no good reasons.

        • Kodie

          He’s not able to corroborate any.

        • Pofarmer

          Pssst. It’s pretty likely that the Author of Luke copied from Josephus. There are pretty good telltale clues, including them making the same mistakes about certain things, and the author of Luke missusing terms that Josephus himself originated. We’ve been through this too. You are dishonest.

        • Kodie

          Isn’t it interesting how SCHOLARS can figure this stuff out?

        • Pofarmer

          Yep. whenever Al says scholars, just insert “Liberty University dishonest apologists” and you will have it right.

        • Show us that Luke couldn’t have copied from Josephus.

        • Pofarmer

          In the case of a battle though, you will have more evidence than just one book, typically. Generals will have biographers. There will be archaeological evidence, etc. Not just one story in one book, or multiple short stories in the same book.

        • adam

          Christ was NOT resurrected, that is MYTHOLOGY
          We’ve established that already.

          Your ‘evidence’ is no more ‘evidence’ than of any other religion being true.

          But you’ve NEVER demonstrated that god even EXISTS.

          The ONLY thing that gods have that people dont have is MAGIC.

          Demonstrate that the POWER of YOUR god is real and not IMAGINARY…

        • Kodie

          You’ve already been told why this is not evidence of any god.

          You don’t have anything else, go fuck yourself somewhere else.

        • Greg G.

          Paul says he received the information in the passage but in Galatians 1:12, he insists he did not get it from a human source but from revelation. Earlier in 1 Corinthians 2:7, Paul says he speaks of God’s wisdom, secret and hidden. In Romans 16:25-26, we learn the revelation of the mystery come from prophetic writings. So Paul got his revelations by reading the scripture. He says so with the “according to the scripture” phrases.

          “Christ died for our sins” comes from Isaiah 53:5. “He was buried” comes from Isaiah 53:9. “Raised on the third day” comes from Hosea 6:2.

          Paul describes the “appeared to” for each of the others using same words he describes his own “appeared to”, as if he thought the others’ were no different than his own, that they also saw it in the scriptures. Paul never says anything about Jesus that does not have an Old Testament reference. He thought Jesus was written about in the past tense by Isaiah. Paul never writes about the teaching and preaching of Jesus. He didn’t think of Jesus as a first century person.

          So you are believing in Jesus for no good reasons.

        • Pofarmer

          He’s scared shitless of Hell. He has a very good reason. Fear all the way down.

        • Greg G.

          Indoctrination about hell is child abuse that leaves emotional scars long into adulthood. Al reminds us of this.

        • Kodie

          Al should feel great about atheism – he’s not going to hell for being such a liar.

        • Al

          He got it from both. He was taught the gospel directly from Christ. He went to the apostles after this to confirm that he had the right gospel.
          No doubt their are OT passages that allude to the resurrection. The resurrection is a fulfillment of these and other passages.

          What lunacy to think that Jesus was not a first century person.

        • adam

          What LUNACY to think that Jesus can perform MAGIC…..

        • Greg G.

          The Book of Acts has about as much history as Gone With the Wind. It has some actual history taken from history but the main story is completely fiction.

          There is no good extrabiblical evidence. The Gospels are fiction. The epistles don’t talk about anything but what is found in the Old Testament.

        • Pofarmer

          At best, he had visions. Probably, he was interacting with an ascetic or apocalyptic sect that was combing the scriptures for the coming messiah, who decided he had already come and gone. He never met Jesus directly.

          “He went to the apostles after this to confirm that he had the right gospel.”

          That’s not really what the bible says. He went to Jerusalem to iron out differences with Cephas and James(the leaders of the movement in Jerusalem) to iron out differences on adding Gentiles into the movement. Cephas and James thought that they should adhere to all the Jewish laws, Paul didn’t think so. There are different versions of how this meeting went. But the passages with Paul rebuking Cephas seem to indicate it didn’t go all that well.

          “What lunacy to think that Jesus was not a first century person.”

          The lunacy is thinking a first century Jew rose from the dead, and that he is available to you in a cracker and wine.

        • Ron

          What’s noteworthy about that passage is that Paul proclaims Christ “appeared” to all those people (even though Acts 1:15 claims there were only 120 believers immediately after Jesus’ ascension) before finally “appearing” to Paul himself. Yet Paul never claims he met a physical Jesus. He claims he had visions and revelations of the risen Christ. Furthermore, Paul provides no names for those 500+ brethren, so we have no way of validating who they were or what they saw, let alone their trustworthiness as witnesses.

          Moreover, all four gospel accounts clearly state that the tomb was already empty when the women arrived. IOW, not a single person actually witnessed this resurrection event.

          Which means your ‘proof’ is a total dud.

          But you know what would be convincing evidence for a resurrected messiah? Producing this resurrected messiah in the flesh (like I’ve asked you to do on at least three previous occasions).

          So how about it? When can you arrange a meet-up with this resurrected Jesus fellow that TrueChristians™ like to call their BFF??

          (I note that Greg G. already posted pretty much the same thing, but I didn’t see his comment until I hit page refresh. Stupid Disqus.)

        • Luckily my schedule is completely wide open and I have the time to answer pointless questions.

          You said: “Do you think the Bible had some influence on the Constitution?”

          I said: “Nope.”

          Question answered. Again. Read a little harder next time.

        • Al

          I don’t know how that could be given the religious makeup of the founding fathers:
          “The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists–Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin–this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith. [John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.]http://www.str.org/articles/the-faith-of-our-fathers#.U-5m0fm-1cY

          These guys were not atheists btw.

        • And these founding fathers, most of whom were Christians, are telling you that a secular government is the way to go.

          Thank you, founding fathers. That makes America a safe and welcoming place for both atheists and Christians.

        • adam

        • MNb

          So what? You don’t answer questions either. Like:

          1. Why do you accept the Resurrection as “real”, but not the fairies in my backyard, except me being honest enough to admit I made them up? Ie what is your method to separate correct claims about the supernatural from incorrect ones? Admitting that you can’t answer is also an answer.
          2. How do immaterial entities like your god and the soul interact with our material reality?
          3. Do you rejoice at the prospect of sitting hands in hands for eternity with Rudolf Höss singing hymns for your god with the lyrics “f**k the jews, after Auschwitz they burn in hell”?

        • Al

          1- How many times do I have to address your lies about your fairies?
          2- already answered.
          3- rephrase this. Its stupid.

        • adam

          No more ‘stupid’ that Holy Ghosts or the ‘afterlife’

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us the MAGIC power of your god?

        • MNb

          1 – You only know made it up because I admitted it. But you can’t tell me why the Resurrection is not fiction – all your arguments and evidence apply as well to my fairies.
          2 – You’re the liar. Your words were: to complex to explain here.
          3 – No rephrasing necessary. It’s a simple yes or no question. The consequences are not simple of course. For me the answer would be no.
          Unless you mean of course that your entire concept of post-life justice by means of salvation and eternal afterlife is stupid. In that case I agree.

          Still thanks, for showing your hypocrisy. You gave me another reason not to convert.

        • adam

          ABSOLUTELY it did…

          That is why it is written as it is.

        • Kodie

          That’s a really lofty claim you’re making.

        • Pofarmer

          Inquisitions. Magdelene laundries, stealing babies, protecting child rapists. Great stuff.

        • Al

          Those are abuses of the teachings of Christ. They would not be in atheism since morality is essentially neutral in atheism.

        • SuperMark

          So what’s your deal “Al” why don’t you come clean and tell us your agenda? How many are posting as “Al”? I get the feeling that it’s a youth group trying to teach apologetic to teenagers??? If i’m wrong just say so.

        • Al

          wrong.

        • SuperMark

          so what is it then? explain whey there are three different “al”‘s???

        • Al

          Sometimes i post from different locations and devices.

        • adam

          No they are just following the monsterous examples of Jesus from the OT.

          I and my Father are one.
          Says Jesus….

          WHEN are YOU going to demonstrate for us that YOUR god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • Pofarmer

          The Church certainly didn’t see them as abuses at the time. Or, even now.

        • Al

          The Catholic church has.

        • Pofarmer

          The Catholic church has refused to provide remuneration for the victims of the Magdalene laundries who are still living. The Irish govt has apologized, but, to my knowledge, the Catholic Church has not. Again, to my knowledge, the Catholic Church has not even acknowledged in wrongdoing in the case of 300,000 stolen babies in Spain alone. The UN just issued the RCC a sternly worded letter over it’s failure to make significant progress and changes on the issue of child abuse by members of the Church. Bernard Law still works in Rome, and the Vicar to the Dominican Republic is still a free man.

        • The morality in your holy book sucks. I guess we should be grateful that Christians don’t take the allowances for slavery and genocide literally.

        • Pofarmer

          Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, which far predates the old testament, would far outweigh the 10 commandments of it were actually practiced.

        • MNb

          “The 10 commandments have a greater positive impact on mankind through the centuries than anything else.”
          Ah, that’s why the quality of life in islamic countries was better than in christian countries between say 700 CE and 1100 CE.

        • Pofarmer

          What do you mean not true? It’s in the fucking bible Al. People, christians, lived that way for thousands of fucking years!

        • RowanVT

          You… are aware that there are more than just 10 commandments, right?

        • adam

          So NOW you are resorting to LIES

          Just a fine example of the morals of ‘christians’.

          When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. (Exodus 21

          If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

          If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

        • Al

          Where did Jesus in the NT teach that “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.”?

          You really should be reading some good background scholarly works on the OT should you will understand what is going on and why. Your comments are embarrassing.

        • SuperMark

          You are embarrassing “Al”, why won’t you answer my simple question?

        • adam

          They are only embarrassing to YOU….

          “I and my Father are one.”-Jesus….
          Or is YOUR Jesus just a LIAR?

          WHEN are you going to demonstrate that this god of yours is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • The embarrassing thing is your holy book. It’s hilarious that Christians like to attach all sorts of omni- titles to God, like he were Kim Jong Il, when the OT makes clear that God was just a petty despot who used butchery and slavery to control people.

        • Pofarmer

          Well, no shit dipshit.

        • adam

          It is EXACTLY THAT that we are opposed to.

          When are you going to demonstrate that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • Pofarmer

          I would wager there are more people who’s empathy is overridden by religion than who are born without it.

        • adam

          Billions more is my guess.

          Certainly all christians who original sin as good.
          And all those who see god of the bible as good and just.

        • Pofarmer

          When you read about what Nuns did to young girls in the Magdalene laundries. When you read about someones family holding her down and cutting her clitoris out and stitching her labia shut. You wonder, how the fuck could someone do those things to another person? Oh, yeah, religion.

        • adam

          And I bet that the Nuns swore that THEIR EVIL was LOVE…

        • adam

          That’s because atheism is not a system.

          What is ‘moral’ about baby rapers getting into heaven?
          And sitting next to your Jesus?

          What is moral about SLAVERY or RAPE?

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us all that YOUR god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • Kodie

          It’s not admitting anything. It’s your refusal to understand what you don’t want to know, and apparently you lied somewhere else and someone ALREADY TOLD YOU THIS. The rest of your brief comment is non sequitur.

        • adam

          When are YOU going to demonstrate YOUR god for us?

          Evil is easily identifiable, we’ve covered this already:

          1evil
          adjective ˈē-vəl, British often & US also ˈē-(ˌ)vil

          : morally bad

          : causing harm or injury to someone

          : marked by bad luck or bad events

        • Translation: “Well, everyone was doing it. It’s not like God was coming at this from an enlightened position or anything!”

        • Norm Donnan

          What you have worked out Al is atheism has nothing to offer or anything to say other than mock others and live in denial for their immoral lives,well done.

        • Pofarmer

          Norm, you know absolutley nothing about my life, you judgemental fuckwit.

        • adam

          Here’s to Norm for you…

        • Norm Donnan

          Sure I do Po,your an insecure judgemental dick who is self centred and hate to be told anything.This is why you refuse to come under any form of religion(especially Catholicism)and why you embrace the lie of atheism.It offers you the freedom of your denial but as you well know when death comes knocking on your door you will die in fear.Go ask your wife if l have summed you up nicely.

        • Once again, you have zero evidence that your story is true, but you cling to the idea that your story is more pleasing.

          Is that how it works for you? Believability comes from how pleased the conclusion makes you, not on how accurate it is?

        • Norm Donnan

          Evidence Bob,Evidence.
          It has all come straight from the donkeys mouth not my imagination.
          Poe’s very convincing.

        • (Don’t say “Poe” if you mean “Pofarmer.” Poe means something else.)

          You have avoided my challenge.

        • Pofarmer

          Lol. I’m not the one living in fear, Norm. Are you sure you’re not projecting? The reason I reject Catholicism is because it’s fundamentally disshonest and harmful.

        • Norm Donnan

          No l live in freedom Po,what you rightly reject is religion. problem you have is you threw the baby out with the bath water.

        • Kodie

          There was no baby in that bathwater. That’s the point.

        • adam

          What ‘immoral lives, Norm?

          Isnt sin immoral?
          Do you ‘sin’
          Therefore it is YOU who are immoral.

        • Norm Donnan

          Yes,yes Adam I am.And thats why me,like everyone else needs know Jesus to vouch for us when we stand before the creator,as we all will.

        • RowanVT

          We’re screwed then because God is immoral.

        • Norm Donnan

          Because The Gospel according to Rowan says so right???

        • Greg G.

          Because the Bible sanctions slavery and never, ever condemns it. There’s no condemnation against rape except as a crime against her fiance. The Sabbath laws are horrible and Jesus’ argument against them is laughable.

        • asmondius

          Actually, someone who molests a virgin must support her as a husband would for the rest of his days.

        • Greg G.

          Only if they are caught in the act. Deuteronomy 28-29 makes no distinctions on whether the woman was willing. It is all about property rights and making good for damaged goods. Forcing a woman to marry her rapist is a horrible solution.

        • Pofarmer

          Thats an interesting way of putting the molested gets given to her molester.

        • Kodie

          So treat the woman to a free rape and call her ‘punishment’, that’s really nice!

          /sarcasm

        • Norm Donnan

          Because The Gospel according to Greg says so right???

        • Greg G.

          Actually, it’s what Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy say. Don’t you ever read the Bible for comprehension?

        • RowanVT

          Because The Old Testament as read by anyone capable of understanding words says so.

          God removes free will in order to visit torment upon an entire nation, culminating in the murder of infants and children.
          God chooses to save a man who would offer up his daughters for gang rape, but kills his wife for looking back upon her town.
          God drowns infants and children and pregnant women and nearly everything alive because he’s cranky at what he made.

          God allows a man to kill his own daughter as a burnt offering sacrifice to God.
          God sends a pair of bears to kill 42 kids for making fun of his prophet.
          God gives directions on how to sell your daughter as a sex slave.
          God says the proper punishment for a woman who grabs a man by the balls to be having her hand cut off.
          God orders the death by stoning of disrespectful children.

          God is immoral.

        • asmondius

          ‘God orders the death by stoning of disrespectful children.’

          Just as one example of your inane Bible claims, everyone is someone’s child – even adults.

        • RowanVT

          Okay, shall I be more explicit and make it worse?

          God orders parents to kill their children by throwing rocks at them if those children are disrespectful to their parents.

          Because that’s so totally even better.

        • Norm Donnan

          God gives ppl freedom to choose and warns them of the consequences of their choices,same applies today.
          Because God to totally moral and perfect and we arnt it is only through Jesus that any can enter heaven.

        • RowanVT

          Then why did God take away free will from Pharaoh? He hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would back out on his agreement to let Moses and his folk go. God wasn’t done torturing the populace so he took away Pharaoh’s ability to decide. How is that moral?

          How can God be totally moral if he gives directions on how to sell your daughter as a sex slave?

          But, of course, you’ll just dodge around these questions just like you dodged around my list of examples of godly immorality.

        • adam

          What immoral lives, Norm…

        • Norm Donnan

          I guess that depends by whos standard you live Adam

        • MNb

          Nope. We atheists don’t sin. By definition. We do all kinds of bad things, sure. But we don’t want “Jesus to vouch for us”. We want to be responsible for our own bad deeds and not after we die, but here and now. We are not cowards like Rudolf Höss, Hans Frank,, Al and you, hiding under Jesus’ skirts when bearing responsibility for our deeds and at the same time pushing that responsibility until we die.

        • Norm Donnan

          And you will have your wish Mark and when the time comes you will be looking for a skirt to hide under.

        • Greg G.

          Does God believe in a Higher Power? He might favor humans who didn’t believe in a higher power and damn the believers to the hell they imagined and threatened others with.

        • Norm Donnan

          No threat Greg only a warning.

        • Greg G.

          Warnings aren’t delivered with glee.

        • Norm Donnan

          No glee here Greg

        • Greg G.

          This Pathos article has Christian taunts about Robin Williams being in hell and many seem quite gleeful. Yours don’t come across any differently. It’s OK, though, it’s expected of Christians.

        • Kodie

          Why would such a glorious god send a putz like you? I’ll tel you something I want you to take seriously: you’re a terrible advertisement for Christianity. I’ve seen much better; they are no more convincing, but they are literate, for starters.

        • hector_jones

          Step on a crack and break your mother’s back. Not a threat just a warning.

        • Norm Donnan

          Hi Kodes,hows life in the cheese cake shop?Ive missed your smiling face 🙂

        • Kodie

          The way you like to imagine all of us as characters from a tv show tells me a lot about your limited imagination. But if you like, I will go ahead and think of you as a cross between Ralph Furley and Steve Urkel and call you “Furkel.”

          Ok, Furkel?

        • Norm Donnan

          Cool,I dont have a clue what shows they are on but using my imagination lm going with a cross between Bruce Willis and George Clooney,thanks.

        • Kodie
        • hector_jones

          Sorry Norm, but it’s really Islam that I believe in but reject because I prefer to be a sinner. Christianity is just nonsense. How can God have a son? Guffaw.

        • Norm Donnan

          Oh dear Hector you just summed up atheism so well,lol

        • So “My story is correct because it has the most hideous ending”–is that your argument?

        • Norm Donnan

          You write your own ending Robert,hideous or a love story,you choose.

        • You’re avoiding the issue. I’m (yet again) looking for evidence for your claims. Does the supernatural exist? Show me.

        • Norm Donnan

          This blog must take up so much of your life Bob that you never leave your home,read books or even explore the internet.Surrounding your self with like minded people serves to convince yourself that your thinking is correct, sadly your wrong.
          The most basic DNA is all that you need to prove it takes a builder to create a building.
          Naturally super eh.
          You carnt see the forest for the trees,how sad.
          Come out into the real world Bob and smell the roses.

        • Ron

          Yet here you are, Norm, wasting precious moments of your life posting comments on Bob’s blog from the other side of the world.

          As for seeing the forest for the trees, you really ought to read that passage in Matthew 7 that I posted earlier—especially verses 3–5.

        • Norm Donnan

          Totally out of perspective as atheistic interpretations usually are.

        • MNb

          Totally devoid of any content as your comments usually are now you are run out of arguments.

        • Norm Donnan

          Hi Mark,hows your day been?

        • MNb

          It just has begun. You being antiscience might think it’s evening in Suriname too when it is in Australia, but it isn’t, due to Earth being a globe. Of course your sciencey wife might have taught you based on the Bubble that the Earth is flat. With your poor narrow mindset that’s only to be expected. But be assured my day started with a bang due to your hilarious political analysis of China.
          I like you Norm, I really do. Just when I think you can’t sink any lower and that you are getting boring you prove me wrong and your level goes down a bit more. Which makes me wonder: do you have a bottom? Let’s see if I can find out.

        • Norm Donnan

          Are you on the afternoon shift,you do realize its after 2pm dont you?Then again if you think that a bubble is flat it would come as no surprise your a little slow lol.

          We love real science here,you should try it but it will disappoint you in some ways like captain Spock and all of star wars is actually fiction,now l know that will shock you but you need to face facts Mark.

          Anyway its bed time here,you best get on with your “sciency” job,have a great day buddy.

        • Kodie

          It’s really creepy that you are monitoring when people should be at work, and also none of your business. You serve no purpose here.

        • Norm Donnan

          “Monitoring”,it may surprise you that its common knowledge europe is around 10 hours and America 15 hours behind us.My “purpose” here is when a group of deluded people get together and tell the rest of the world that what they know to be true is wrong my purpose is to speak out by speaking out rather than the usual response which is to ignore ignorant people

        • Kodie

          It’s irrelevant trolling, it means you don’t have a valid argument, which you never have and never do.. It would be difficult to ignore yourself.

        • 90Lew90

          “My “purpose” here is when a group of deluded people get together and tell the rest of the world that what they know to be true is wrong my purpose is to speak out by speaking out rather than the usual response which is to ignore ignorant people”

          How you can come up with a sentence like that, complete with clumsy tautology, and then with a straight face call other people “ignorant” is quite remarkable. There’s this thing called the Dunning-Kruger effect…

        • Kodie

          He obviously just doesn’t get enough attention at home.

        • 90Lew90

          Nor at work. Slacker.

        • Norm Donnan

          And thats why l need to be here,to talk to a bunch of confused angry people

        • 90Lew90

          Dunning-Kruger effect.

        • Kodie

          You’re a terrible advertisement for Christianity. Why would god send someone who doesn’t know anything to insult his children’s intelligence so? You serve no purpose.

        • Norm Donnan

          The really sad thing is that your such a good example of an atheist.While its true that putting thoughts into words isnt a strength of mine,the people who are good at it wont bother trying with people like you.

          Personally l dont think either you or me is the sort of dialog that Bob is hopeing to attract but sadly we are it

        • Kodie

          None of us really know what else to do with such an illiterate Christian as yourself, so don’t take me down to your level. You’re just a troll, so we treat you like a troll.

        • Norm Donnan

          Your problem is that your plain rude to everyone,its just you.You call me a troll to justify to yourself your autistic behaviour,trouble is most replies to everyone else is the same snarky attitude.
          Even when others try to be nice you carnt help yourself,you exude anger. Next time your at your councilor you could ask for help.

        • MNb

          Wow, that last sentence of yours is an excellent example of you being nice. Of course your first sentence is plain wrong. There are lots of commenters here Kodie is not rude to. Now I at the other hand ….. yes, as a nasty Dutchman I’m rude to everyone indeed. It’s not because I’m angry, it’s because I think it fun. Not all bloggers appreciate it. Jerry Coyne – you may remember he’s a staunch antitheist – has banned me for being rude to him. So on this

          “the sort of dialog that Bob is hopeing to attract”
          you are wrong as always. See, if BobS disliked it he just would have asked. Daniel Fincke did. If we meet there I won’t call you stupid, because DF doesn’t want anyone to.
          Anyhow with your complaint about “snarky attitude” you provide a nice example of the biblical saying about the splinter and the log. You being a bigot judgmental christian nobody will be surprised.

        • Kodie

          What do you have to offer? Nothing.

        • Norm, consider what role you’re playing in this thing you’re complaining about. If you’d give actual arguments and evidence instead of dogma and one-liners, we’d all be happier.

        • Norm Donnan

          Ive tried that Bob except that your band of thugs make it pointless.This is when the moderator needs to step in and say something to them as well instead of just me,think about it.

        • Just like the playground supervisor, I gotta tell you that you usually bring this on yourself. I’ve seen Kodie (not to single her out) be surprisingly patient with a newbie, trying to show them what counts as an interesting argument and what counts as bullshit. After a certain time, though, anyone will lose patience. Perhaps you, too?

        • Norm Donnan

          Yeah right,no matter what l say these childish twits pipe in with never once a response from you.Ive clashed with Kodie for a number of years and have only once had a relevant question from her ,the rest have been a diatribe of derogatory vomit.
          I will tell you what,l will ignore these morons and see how it goes eh.

        • Pofarmer

          Norm, I’ve never witnessed you trying to make an actual argument, proselytizing is not an argument.

        • MNb

          Oh, he has tried to in the past. It’s quite a while ago though.

        • MNb

          Hey Nazi Norm, congratulations that you are capable of googling Nieuweboer Moengo. No doubt it took you time and effort to translate the stuff you needed, because it’s all in Dutch.
          Btw it’s clear now that both your psychologist and your sciencey wife just as your god only exist in your sick imagination.

          PS BobS: I ask you to delete this comment, as it’s as irrelevant for your blog as Norm’s comment I react to, the one you deleted. It’s good enough that he will receive it in his mail box.

        • Pofarmer

          Lol. The people who are good at it know effective arguments when they see it and send the cannon fodder.

        • You complain about the dialogue? Then do something about improving it.

        • Norm Donnan

          you really should pay more attention on who they are that are constantly complaining about the dialogue Robbie

        • MNb

          I.
          Live.
          In.
          Suriname.

        • Kodie

          He’s just a plain dope, “shouldn’t you be at work” comments when he has nothing to add.

        • adam

          Ad hominem is the VERY best demonstration of Norm’s god’s ‘power’…

        • MNb

          Of course. I just think it fun to see how far I can drag him down. I suspect we haven’t reached the bottom yet.

        • adam

          Well then Norm, WHEN are you going speak out instead of ad hominem?

          IF your god were TRUE, then you would be able to DEMONSTRATE that, all you demonstrate is that you are as childish as YOUR god…

          YOU could settle this all NOW, but DEMONSTRATING the MAGIC that is the POWER of YOUR god..

          Otherwise we ALL UNDERSTAND that you know NOTHING about which are are talking about.

        • MNb

          Credit to Norm: he HAS spoken out before you entered BobS’ fine blog and thus enriched the comment section. All of his stuff got thoroughly debunked long ago. Hence he has nothing else left but cheap snarks. I must admit: to my joy.

        • adam

          Ahh, the infamous cheap christian snark, the VERY BEST evidence they have for the existence of their ‘god’…….

          Just AMAZING….

        • MNb

          Heck, you are stupid. I live in Suriname, remember? It was about 9 o’clock in the morning when I typed that comment.
          Moreover it’s the first day of my holiday.

        • Norm Donnan

          Awesome,what have you got planned for your holidays?

        • MNb

          Nothing. One of the nice things of holidays is that I don’t have to plan.

        • Norm Donnan

          You know what,l was talking to an atheist friend about this blog and the rude and derogatory attitude here and she didnt believe me so l said,”ok,watch this”.
          I say to you “hi Mark how s your day going” and true to form Mark replies,then Kodie ect.
          She was shocked,so we go through past comments and she laughed at you all calling me illiterate,(shes a psychologist) who lve talked to about the personalities here and guess what?she agrees with me that you have childhood issues.
          I was trying to get her to join you here but after seeing you and Kodies response she wont be wasting her time,well done.

        • MNb

          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          If that “psychologist” of yours were any good at her profession she would know it’s impossible to make such a diagnosis based on a few internet comments. I’m not saying you’re lying here – though you have lied before – because I can’t prove it. But I think your “psychologist” is as fake as your sciencey wife.
          Will she read this too? I like you for this. You so often make an enormous fool out of yourself I cannot help but like you.
          Thanks for starting off my day with a hilarious bang again.

          Btw I didn’t call you illiterate (I know you can read and write). I called you ignorant. That’s because you write a lot of things you know approximately zilch about. I also called you stupid. That’s because you write things you wouldn’t write if you were capable of using your brain for even a few seconds.

        • hector_jones

          Some of Norm’s best friends are atheists.

        • Kodie

          I call people illiterate when they’ve demonstrated they can’t read, or what is the excuse for reading something any one of us has written and ignoring it or getting it completely wrong? If there’s another word for reading with terrible comprehension, I would like to learn that word and refine my language skills.

          There are people who are like Norm that demonstrate they are burnt and have nothing to offer but reusing the same arguments and copy-pasta, often irrelevant to the thoughtful answer they’ve been given. When I first met Norm, he was incapable of discussion and hasn’t learned anything since. For example, the atheist topic format, atheist 1 responds, atheist 2 has something to add, Norm files in and says his opinion, atheist tries to engage him in debate by challenging his points, Norm retreats to his opinion.

          He thinks “discussion” is rather like a sharing circle, where we go around one at a time and each say what we think, and then we order lunch. If he says something debatable, he doesn’t address the disagreement or challenge on any intellectual level. He makes fun of that we believe everything scientists tell us, and tells us to watch this film by Ray Comfort, and tells us his scientist wife disagrees with us, and threatens we’ll be begging god for mercy the second we’re dead. Those are his four “legitimate” debate tactics that he’s picked up in 3 years that I’ve encountered him.

          I call him illiterate because he can’t even explain his own position. He can’t read and absorb information well enough to debate on a topic in his own voice, nor does he bother to read and learn anything we have tried to educate him about, not even to challenge us and disagree with points that he finds disagreeable.

        • If Norm and Al would simply adapt to the responses they hear to make their arguments stronger, I’d be happy. Hearing the same old shit over and over is wearing.

        • Norm Donnan

          How do you think l know about your deep seated father issue? lve shown her your stuff for the last year and had many a conversation.Her diagnosis is that your respected father has had an affair of sorts that has left you traumatised and shocked.Was he murdered by a lover Mark?

        • 90Lew90

          What’s that smell?

        • Norm farted, again.

        • Pofarmer

          I think what she probably diesn’t know is that there’s a history. You can’t just take a response to one comment at random. It certainly wasn’t your first post, and not even the first post of uours in this thread.

        • Kodie

          You should have shown her all the posts we’ve written before, for a long time, to explain things to you, and you don’t read them, and you can’t understand them. You’ve demonstrated that you have nothing to offer the discussion, and that was clear to me 3 years ago. Did you tell your friend you’ve been pestering us for years and have nothing to offer the discussion?

        • 90Lew90

          You don’t think she’s a figment of his limited imagination?

        • Kodie

          It’s kind of funny how Al printed out our posts to show his co-workers, and Norm has an atheist psychologist friend (? not sure about the last part) to show off our posts and critique them for us. She diagnosed us over the internet? That’s really unprofessional!

          You’re right, though, it is fake. I hadn’t had coffee yet or read off all the other responses. My normal take on things is to believe people and mock them for thinking their internet activities are interesting to people they know in real life, and for having the poor social skills to think those people aren’t just humoring him. She won’t be posting here because she’s a character Norm made up. Do you think he has a wife who used to teach creationism as science?

          I believe he has children in their teens or later, I do believe that because he said once that he worried so much about them because they wouldn’t listen to him either.

        • 90Lew90

          I try hard in these discussions to be honest. I made it a rule of thumb quite a long time ago to not commit anything to a public forum that I couldn’t stand by if I was to put my full name to it. In that spirit, I admit I’ve splatted out some things that would make me blush, but those bits of intemperance are usually drink-fuelled. I also admit that I spew out sometimes mangled, and sometimes pretentious sentences that make me cringe on re-reading, but in my defence that’s just because I love playing around with words and sentences.

          Ultimately though, I aim at honesty and frankness. There’s a great temptation when you’re sitting anonymously at a keyboard to make stuff up about yourself, particularly if it strengthens a point you’re trying to make. “Some of my best friends are black, but these damn niggers…”. That kind of thing. It’s always transparent. This one’s psychologist friend exists solely so that he can have some character say we have “childhood issues”. That phrasing in itself is completely implausible. It’s straight out of thin air. And the fiction that anyone at work is printing this stuff out to show to colleagues is ridiculous. That’s like rubbing their noses in the fact that you’re not working. Would you do it? I’d say that would be to invite a verbal warning that your position is not as secure as you seem to think.

        • Pofarmer

          You and I are in the same page, lew. I would stand behind anything I write here, even if it might be a tad uncomfortable. But, also, these forums is where you can uncork and let out how you really do feel.

        • MNb

          “There’s a great temptation when you’re sitting anonymously at a keyboard to make stuff up about yourself”
          Really? Personally I never felt that temptation. Not that I’m totally honest; sure I tend to present myself better than I am.

        • Make stuff up? Now I’m feeling bad about my image with the faux muscles …

        • 90Lew90

          I love the “uncorking” bit. I do that more than I should. In both senses…

        • This isn’t a blog about psychological issues, though you seem confused on that matter.

          Does your psychologist friend have actual arguments to offer on what the blog actually is about? If so, hand the baton to her.

        • Norm Donnan

          No her repulsion was the people on the blog not the content.She did ask where the moderator was in all this,smirking on the sidelines no doubt. Very insightful was my reply.
          She has been temporarily deluded after the atheist proselytizing she came under at university but l have faith she will see sense eventually. I must take her to the new movie Gods Not Dead,lm sure she will relate.

        • (Hey, Norm–let me give you a tip, man to man. You wanna get back at Kodie? Let me tell you how to do it: give an argument, backed up with evidence, that shows that Christianity is accurate. She’ll blow a gasket! It’ll be awesome. But listen–it has to be a well-thought-out argument, not just some whiny playground taunt, OK?

          Make it happen, bro! I’m rooting for you.)

        • Norm Donnan

          Better still,l will ignore the trolls,my life is to busy at this stage to spend the time.

        • hector_jones

          Don’t lie, Norm.

        • MNb

          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          Yeah, too busy to do background research on the commenters you want to go after (and translate info from Dutch). With that deleted comment on my murdered father you betrayed yourself, Nazi Norm. I know exactly what’s written about him on internet, because years ago I have read it all.

          @BobS: I ask you to consider deleting this comment as well. Unlike civic Americans I have no problem with a little game “who can sink lowest, Norm or me”. I will understand not deleting as permission. The “nasty Dutchman” image is more than a joke.

        • I do little to rein in either side.

          Show your little psychiatrist friend my review of “God’s Not Dead.” Might be a good discussion topic.

          As for relating, no thoughtful person would ever find intelligent argument in that movie. At best it preached to the choir.

        • Hey, y’know what I could do? I could write a blog to help me interact with people. I think I’ll try to focus on reaching Christians so that it doesn’t become an echo chamber. Going public like that will probably give me all sorts of new input.

          Thanks for the prodding, bud.

        • Kodie

          Now if only Christians =/= Trolls….

        • MNb

          Boooooh! I’m scared! There is Norm the Porm again with his bogeygod! Boooooh!

        • adam

        • hector_jones

          Will Jesus be vouching for this guy?

        • Vouching for him? Heck, Jesus will be giving him back rubs.

        • Greg G.

          Atheism does offer anything. It is a conclusion drawn from critical thinking. Theism doesn’t offer anything either. Theology offers guesses about what an assumed deity might want. There is no atheology.

        • asmondius

          ‘you’ve AGAIN justified the EVIL of your bible and MAKE EXCUSES why an ALL-KNOWING, ALL-POWERFUL god put out RULES for OWNING other HUMAN BEINGS.’

          This is atheistic critical thinking?

        • Greg G.

          Is that a response to Al? He doesn’t listen to anything when it is presented to him. He has earned all the mocking he gets. What you quoted is in the typical style of some Christians except there should be a few misspelled words.

          You suspect that Al is a sock puppet designed to make Christians look like fools but he is typical. Norm agrees with him. Norm agrees Miguel. Norm agrees with you, too.

        • MNb

          Beware Al, you have Nazi-Norm at your side. He has used nazi-arguments in the past to defend the Bubble.

        • adam

          OK, you’ve AGAIN justified the EVIL of your bible and MAKE EXCUSES why an ALL-KNOWING, ALL-POWERFUL god put out RULES for OWNING other HUMAN BEINGS.

          When are you going to demonstrate this god of yours to us?

        • hector_jones

          Al can’t wait to for the day when he gets to meet this guy in heaven.

      • RowanVT

        God gives directions for how to take slaves, and how to sell your daughter as a slave. God does not think slavery is bad. Why do you think slavery is bad?

        God’s punishment for a rape victim is DEATH. God has his armies keep virgin girls after wiping out entire towns, in order to be sex slaves, who are raped. God is okay with rape happening, as long as you’re a male performing rape.

        • al

          I need you to answer where in atheism its says these things are bad?

        • MNb

          No you don’t, because several atheists here, BobS in the first place, already have told you.

        • RowanVT

          Dear Al,

          Atheism isn’t a religion with set doctrines or tenets.

          I am an atheist. I get my morals from empathy for others, and enlightened self interest. I cry when others feel sorrow, because I can imagine feeling that sorrow myself. I fully understand that the rest of humanity are people just like me, with hopes, joys, fears, love, anxiety, and not-so-great parts. This makes me love them, and makes me mourn every death because a unique person no longer exists and never will again.

          Rape is bad because it causes harm to someone. It is a horrible emotional trauma. I’ve been stalked. I’ve had 3 close encounters that could have easily ended in me being raped if anything had happened differently. It’s terrifying. Causing such harm to another being is wrong. No God required.

        • al

          So you have to steal from another belief system to get your morality. Atheism can’t provide you with it. That is so lame.

          Rape does not harm the one doing it. If atheism is true then there is no reason not to given that it does not matter since you will cease to exist anyway.

          I sorry to hear of your experiences. It was evil and wrong for that to happen to you and that person will be held accountable for that in the judgment.

        • You’re an imbecile. Atheism isn’t a moral system. It isn’t supposed to be.

          You have nothing to learn here. Leave.

        • asmondius

          Insult is the last recourse of the incompetent.

        • Pofarmer

          It’s the last recourse of the frustrated, in this case, who have rebutted the same missguided arguments through numerous posts.

        • Give me some tips, great teacher. When I’ve explained something to someone too pigheaded to listen, over and over without success, what do you recommend? The same old patient approach, assuming that the student is eager to learn, obviously isn’t working.

        • RowanVT

          Empathy is now a belief system?

          I’ve always been empathic towards everything. As a kid I would rescue rolypolies and worms from puddles because I hated to see anything suffer. I once attacked a group of classmates with the very sticks they were using to beat butterflies out of the air and then rip their wings off.

          The ability to feel empathy is, in itself, sufficient to create morals. Wrong and right are pretty basic if you come at it from a view of the least harm.

        • Kodie

          You say that with total assurance, but you don’t know if he repented.

          What belief system is Rowan stealing from? Again you mistake obedience for morality. You don’t have objective morality, you have obedience and eternal judgment. Not the same thing at all.

        • RowanVT

          Not if those men actually repent they won’t. They also need to be contained *now* because it’s very likely they all have raped in the past, and will rape again in the future.

          Also, sorry not sorry, but I don’t believe for a moment that you are actually sorry that I have nearly been raped.

        • MNb

          Why is that lame? What I think lame is rejecting everything from another belief system or worldview just because of that belief system or other worldview. This remark of yours further confirms your pathology.

          “Rape does not harm the one doing it.”
          Maybe this applies to you, but if I would rape someone it would harm me indeed – exactly because of my secular ethics.
          If christianity is true then there is no reason not to given that it does not matter since god will pardon you after confession and repent anyway.

          “that person will be held accountable for that in the judgment”
          Nope, that person won’t. That person only will be held accountable for accepting Jesus in his/her life or not. You personally told us so. If that person does he/she will receive salvation no matter what. So this guy

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss
          is waiting for you in Heaven. Do you rejoice?

        • Greg G.

          Empathy is not stolen from another belief system. Religion appropriates good things and steals the credit for it. Apes and monkeys show empathy for fellow primates. Empathy arose in primates long before humans arose.

          Remember when Moses murdered a slave-driver for beating a Hebrew slave. Moses became a fugitive and fled Egypt because the Egyptians knew that murder was wrong and had laws against it. Forty years later, Moses came back, led the slaves out, and got the ten commandments that said “Thou shalt not kill”. Did God steal that from Ra’s belief system? Or was the whole story a Hebrew campfire tale?

        • Kodie

          I smell something burning.

        • adam

          Christians STEALING from other belief systems…..
          .
          Say it aint so Auntie Em….

        • asmondius

          Actually the feast of Saturnalia was not celebrated on a single day.
          The Christmas tree is not a religious item, few fir trees were to be had in Palestine.

        • adam

          Ok,so the CHRIST MASS tree is not a religious item?

          It is probably the NAME of that tree that christians give it that makes it confusing.

        • asmondius

          ‘Empathy arose in primates long before humans arose.’
          Explain how fossil evidence tells us that.

        • Pofarmer
        • Kodie

          It’s a general concept you are probably unfamiliar with called “empathy”. Christianity has less because you don’t know what to do until you consult your book. The rest of us just can kind of tell what people don’t like, so don’t do it.

        • al

          Isn’t empathy caused by the chemicals in the brain?

        • MNb

          Not exactly, it’s a bit more complicated. So what?

        • RowanVT

          Empathy exists partly because we are a *social* species, which means that in all except for really recent history we *needed* to be part of a larger group to truly thrive. Thus, we needed to not cause the group to fall apart. Raping and murdering freely those within your own group would quickly cause it to fall apart and result in death for most, if not all, or those in the group.

          If we were not empathic towards others, we would freely do bad things. There are people born without empathy. They can be quite scary.

        • adam

          “There are people born without empathy. They can be quite scary.”

          And then there are people who through ‘faith’ deny empathy in favor of Authoritarianism..

        • Kodie

          I don’t know, look it up on the internet.

        • As you’ve been told, atheism is not a moral system (humanism is, if you want to critique that). Problem is, Christianity is a moral system, and it fails miserably! Modern morality must be read back into the Bible so that Christians don’t go raping and enslaving and think that that’s justified.

        • RowanVT

          I answered your question, now answer mine.

          WHY do you think slavery is bad?
          WHY do you think rape is bad?

          Remember, your source of morality is perfectly okay with both these things, so WHY do YOU think they are bad?

        • Al

          Slavery is a complex issue in the ancient past. Have you read any scholarly works on the issue?

          Rape is evil because it forces someone to something against their will in a violent way. It degrades a person who is made in the image of God.

        • adam

          Now tell where in the Bible it says these things are bad?

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • Oh, yeah. Right. Everyone was doing it, so the omniscient creator of the universe would’ve felt left out if he wasn’t doing it as well.

          My bad for assuming that he could figure things out.

        • adam

          What does THAT have to do with WHERE in the bible is says these things are bad?

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • RowanVT

          Then WHY is God okay with rape? Why does he have his angels rescue Lot as being the only righteous man AFTER he offers up his daughters to be gang raped.

          WHY does God GIVE DIRECTIONS on how to sell one’s daughter as a sex slave? Sex with a slave, by the way, is ALWAYS RAPE.

          Why does God ALLOW HIS ARMIES to slaughter all but the VIRGIN GIRLS, whom they are to keep for themselves… i.e. rape.

          God does not think rape is evil unless it is the rape of someone else’s property. Then it is a crime against the MAN who OWNS the woman, not the woman herself.

          Not all rape is violent, by the by.

          But considering you can’t even see that God condones rape, I doubt you believe that rapes are committed by anyone other than violent strangers.

        • adam

          We ALL need YOU to demonstrate that your god is real and not IMAGINARY….

      • rape is bad and so is slavery. Now tell where in the Bible it says these things are bad?

        • Al

          What OT background commentaries written by scholars have read on this subject?

        • adam

          Now tell where in the Bible it says these things are bad?

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • Al

          We need to first understand what are the causes of slavery in ancient times. Do you know?

        • adam

          NO we dont.
          The causes of slavery in ancient times has no relevancy to the question.

          You are just AGAIN, JUSTIFYING EVIL, just because YOUR god does it, all the while KNOWING that it IS EVIL..

          Now tell where in the Bible it says these things are bad?

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • Al

          Can’t have a good discussion with you on this when you are ignorant. You need to upgrade your knowledge.

        • adam

          Ignorant about WHAT?
          That YOUR bible says these EVIL things are EVIL, yes, I am ignorant of that.

          Now tell where in the Bible it says these things are bad?

          When are you going to demonstrate this god of yours to us?

        • Albe

          Your ignorant about slavery in ancient times.

          Already gave you plenty of evidence for Christianity on multiple levels. No need for more until you can grasp those posts.

        • adam

          Pretty low even for you Albe,

          Bearing FALSE WITNESS AGAINST ME…

          LIAR, I am not ignorant about slavery in ancient times.
          Besides, that is not the subject of discussion.

          Now tell where in the Bible it says these things are bad?

          When are you going to demonstrate this god of yours to us?
          You have not given plenty of evidence, almost entirely heresay.

          Demonstrate that YOUR gods magic is REAL and not imaginary.

        • SuperMark

          I think you found the right question Adam, he’s not going to answer you because there is no answer.

          Al: it’s people like you who make me thank god every day that i’m no longer a christian.

        • adam

          The answer IS: that Al’s god has the morals of a Rudolph Hess and is perfectly fine with EVIL, as long as it is Al’s gods EVIL…

          Well that and that the bible actually SUPPORTS and ENDORSES slavery and rape…..

        • SuperMark

          that’s right, it seems like if his god actually cared it would have been one of the thousands of commandments in the OT. but nope…

        • adam

          Yes, IF only…..

        • Al

          I thought you were an atheist. Am I wrong?

        • adam

          What does THAT have to do with WHERE in the bible is says these things are bad?

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • asmondius

          Even being an atheist requires some thought.

        • SuperMark

          Hey Adam, I just found a picture of Al:

        • Norm Donnan

          Ha,this is so how l picture most here,well done

        • MNb

          Now only if you would apply this to yourself regarding Evolution Theory …..
          Btw you’re doing a good job hammering the problems with christianity through Al’s thick christian skull. My only complaint is that it’s a hobby of mine too, so you rob me of some fun ….

        • adam

          What does THAT have to do with WHERE in the bible is says these things are bad?

          Just give chapter and verse, should be easy for YOU….

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • Greg G.

          How can there be a discussion when you keep dodging the issue?

        • Pofarmer

          Unless you agree with Al, and his Liberty University appointed apologists, there can be no point in discussion. The only discussion is how to win over all those other evil people who aren’t Christians.

        • MNb

          Actually I think Al is beyond that point. All that’s left is saving face. A common tactic then – during 14 years of internet I’ve seen it quite often before – is dodging issues and then later claiming you have answered them.

        • asmondius

          14 years – think of all you could have accomplished in real life.

        • MNb

          I have accomplished quite a few things in real life last 14 years, thank you. What about you? You are wasting as much time each day on internet as me, it seems. Shouldn’t you instead pray a bit more to secure your ticket to Heaven?

        • adam

          Just think of what YOU could accomplish in real life if you just applied yourself.

          YOU know you put this all to rest by just DEMONSTRATED that your god is NOT IMAGINARY…

          Demonstrate some of the MAGIC that you say is the power of YOUR god?

        • asmondius

          The person never mentioned Liberty University – you are making false statements.

        • MNb

          It’s a metaphor, Asmondius, a metaphor. If metaphors are false statements then no book is as false as your Holy Bible.

        • Pofarmer

          He linked to several articles by Gary Habermas and several others associated with Liberty University. I am dead on.

        • asmondius

          There is no issue – you simply have several individuals ganging up on one person, most of them making ignorant comments. I print these out to show people how supposed atheists (I give real atheists more credit) engage in discourse. It usually garners a good laugh all around.

          Of course, there is always the chance that people are simply spoofing Al – but even that would be an immature action. Tell me, are you really comfortable with the company you keep here? Are some of these the people you would wish to see dating your daughter or sister?

          Finally, if the Bible is errant because it condones slavery, then the Bible must be a volume with historical merit. Otherwise your entire argument is moot.

        • MNb

          “Are some of these the people you would wish to see dating your daughter or sister?”

          Rather Greg, Hector, Pofarmer or Kodie than you, that’s for sure. Btw my sister doesn’t listen to me when deciding whom to date, so you still have a chance. Unlike your sisters she can think and decide for herself in those matters and doesn’t need my opinion.

        • asmondius

          Kodie’s your bud, eh?

        • Pofarmer

          Kodie is an excellent person who has opened up on this blog numerous times. I respect her opinions and experience greatly.

        • Kodie

          Back at ya. 🙂

        • MNb

          As much as Al and you are a married gay couple.

        • Norm Donnan

          I have actually suggested to Mark (MNb) he should hook up with Kodie,They would make a great match,both Dutch,rude,ect.But mark has a fear of women and Kodes of men so it wouldnt last long…..but you never know.

        • Kodie

          Did your imaginary friend tell you that or did you pull it out of your ass? Same thing!

        • Norm Donnan

          Well most around here talk out of theirs so that would make it right,and what are you doing here at this time of the day,you should be getting ready for work

        • Kodie

          Your logical fallacy is:
          Tu quoque
          and
          Ad hominem.

        • Norm Donnan

          Sorry l dont speak dutch

        • Or logic.

        • Pofarmer

          He’s got bigoted dumbass down cold.

        • Norm Donnan

          Thats why l feel so at home here Poe

        • Greg G.

          If I wasn’t married, I’d ask for her number.

        • Greg G.

          Al keeps giving the same poor arguments over and over to everybody. He seems to enjoy the responses. The main difference between he and thee is you are a better speller and every once in a while, you say something interestingly wrong. Miguel de la Pena is more like you but he has yet to make an interesting argument.

          My sister can date who she pleases but the regular Cross-Examined commenters would be fine candidates, as far as I’m concerned.

          There are Orthodox Jews who follow the Torah to this day. Apparently it’s been done for 2500 years. That makes it somewhat historical but the merit is not positive. But much of the purported history has been shown to be false. There is no question that the Bible is errant.

        • hector_jones

          What are real atheists? People who don’t ask for proof when you make up ‘Geneva’ decisions?

          If I had posted a comment wherein I totally made up some bullshit ‘Geneva’ court decision I would be so embarrassed if my Mom or boss read it. Good thing you don’t have such scruples.

        • adam

          YOU know you put this all to rest by just DEMONSTRATING that your god is NOT IMAGINARY……

          Demonstrate some of the MAGIC that you say is the power of YOUR god?

        • Kodie

          The bible condones slavery, that’s all we need to know, why your perfect god did not say it was bad, and we had to figure it out for ourselves.

        • asmondius

          Where? Chapter? Verse?

        • Kodie
        • Greg G.

          Do we need to understand the causes of murder in ancient times to know it was bad?

          There were hired hands, bond servants and slaves. The Bible was against Hebrews holding Hebrews as slaves because their ancestors were slaves in Egypt. That’s not a good justification. It should have been because owning another person as a slave is evil and it should have applied to everyone.God must have been afraid the ancient Hebrews would stop burning beef for him if he outlawed slavery outright.

        • Al

          So you don’t know much about how slavery worked in ancient societies either. Sad.

        • adam

          What does THAT have to do with WHERE in the bible is says that slavery and rape are bad?

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • Kodie

          How slavery worked in ancient societies has nothing to do with anything, you know.

          We know that. BUT THE QUESTION YOU’RE AVOIDING IS:

          Why did god think it was ok, and why does he think it’s not ok now? I mean, how do you know god doesn’t think it’s ok now – your book is out of date, and god is supposed to be eternal, and morality is supposed to be objective.

          What’s really sad is how you think you’re outsmarting or embarrassing anyone with your typical Christian evasion.

        • asmondius

          ”How slavery worked in ancient societies has nothing to do with anything’
          Of course not – never let facts interfere with your posts.

        • Kodie

          Never let reading to the end of the post and actually being relevant stop you.

        • MNb

          Then explain what effect how slavery worked in ancient societies has on the question if slavery is good or evil. Keep in mind that according to you morals are absolute, eternal, unchanging because objective.

        • asmondius

          Slavery is evil but genocide is worse.

        • And God encouraged both, so I guess he oughta know.

          I’m puzzled why you cling to the argument that the Bible’s morality is valid today. Or do you?

        • hector_jones

          Likewise never let the fact that you never articulate an actual position interfere with your claims of winning the argument.

        • You’re simply trying to change the subject. What will Jeebus say when you stand before him in judgment when he reminds you of your dishonesty?

          If other societies had slavery, so what?

        • adam

          He will stand next to Adolph Hitler, Rudolph Hess and all the christian BABY RAPERS through history and will say:

          Welcome to YOUR Heaven Albert, you are in the GOOD company of your fellow true BELIEVERS….

        • Norm Donnan

          People can claim to be whatever they like but as Jesus said “you will know them by their fruits”

        • Ron

          “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.” Galatians 5:22 (NIV)

          Can you honestly claim that you possess all of these fruits, Norm? If not, you might want to temper your remarks in accordance with Matthew 7:1-5.

        • asmondius

          Oh, you must mean:

          ‘“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.’

          Perhaps He was speaking of people on this blog.

        • Kodie

          That’s the mighty fine marketing machine way of saying, “a lot of people are going to make fun of you.”

        • adam

          YOU know you put this all to rest by just DEMONSTRATING that your god is NOT IMAGINARY…

          Demonstrate some of the MAGIC that you say is the power of YOUR god?

        • Ooh! Another zinger! I dunno how you do it.

          Idea: focus on evidence, arguments, and ideas.

        • Norm Donnan

          Im working towards that Ron.
          As for Matt 7,Hitler,Hess and baby rapers used as the examples really dont apply.

        • hector_jones

          How about David Berkowitz? Is he going to heaven? Lots of christians think he is.

          http://www.cbn.com/700club/scottross/interviews/sonofsam.aspx

        • Norm Donnan

          Its simply that you consider others as really bad and evil and yourself as quite good,problem is your standards are very low compared to Gods,you need Jesus.

        • adam

          How about David Berkowitz? Is he going to heaven? Lots of christians think he is.

          http://www.cbn.com/700club/sco

        • hector_jones

          You don’t consider serial killers as really bad and evil and yourself as quite good in comparison? So you think Berkowitz has a shot at heaven, and yet you call my standards low? You are one sick mofo, Normie.

        • Norm Donnan

          No its simply that l have an honest view of myself compared to God and l dont stand out as a shining example of perfection.

        • hector_jones

          So an ‘honest view of yourself’ means you aren’t much better than a serial killer? What bad things have you done, Norm? Or is it all too revolting to post here?

          This is a huge problem with xtianity. It conditions the believer to have such a low opinion of himself that he has trouble distinguishing his own moral worth from that of a serial killer. What would you guys do without atheists to feel morally superior to?

        • Norm Donnan

          Yes l have done some really bad stuff in my time……no l carnt……but you must….ok,l,l,l,used to dress up as a monkey and smoke dope……oh how shameful,please dont judge me Hec

        • Ron

          How doesn’t it apply? Romans 3:23 proclaims “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” and the path to salvation is outlined in John 3:16, John 11:25 and Romans 10:9. So unless you’re privy to their state of mind at the time of death, you have no way of determining whether or not they were truly saved.

        • Norm Donnan

          Whether someone is truly saved is not something l will ever need to determine,that is only between you and God when your day comes.
          You can argue your point of view on blogs like this all you like but you know the truth.

        • adam

          Yes, the fruit of allowing baby rapers and mass murders into YOUR heaven, while eternally torturing doubters unmercifully is self evidently EVIL….

        • asmondius

          Poor Bob – this is the level of intellect his columns are dredging up.

        • adam

          Oh I dont think Bob worries too much about the lack of intellect you bring…

          But seriously, you could make SOME effort…

        • Unhelpful sanctimony. You’re part of the problem, Chester.

        • asmondius

          Hitler and Hess were not practicing Christians – obviously.

          I don’t recall that they were ‘baby rapers’.

          Is this your issue – were you raped?

        • Norm Donnan

          Adam does sound rather violated at times doesnt he?

        • adam

          YOU know you put this all to rest by just DEMONSTRATING that your god is NOT IMAGINARY….

          Demonstrate some of the MAGIC that you say is the power of YOUR god?

        • Norm Donnan

          Oh so easy Ad,just look around you.The computer your using.the chair your sitting on,the building you live in,did anything evolve ?No they are all evidence of a builder yet the most basic thing in all creation is more complex than all of these and yet you would like to believe there is no creator.
          What passes as science to you is what is IMAGINARY.

        • adam

          Of course they all evolved,
          My phone has more computer power than the multiroom computers of my youth.
          And yes I can look through history and see the evolution of chairs as well.

          Now if you would just MATERIALIZE a LIVING computer that 1000000 times more powerful than anything on the planet and could wear it as a pin on a shirt, then you might have something.

          But I suppose like all the other ‘believers’ you CANT demonstrate what YOU CLAIM TO BE TRUE….

          Demonstrate some of the MAGIC that you say is the power of YOUR god?
          Or we will all understand that you have not idea of what you are talking about.

        • The chair, the computer, and the building are there because of science.

        • Norm Donnan

          Oh how embarrassing Bob,they are there because somebody made them,still in denial?

        • MNb

          Yup. And you are here because your parents made them. And they are/were here because their parents made them. And those parents are/were here because …..
          all the way back to the first life form, a unicellular.
          Thanks for confirming Evolution Theory.

          “did anything evolve?”
          Do computers, chairs and buildings reproduce themselves? Are they subject to natural selection? No. That’s reason one why your analogy is rotten.
          Do you know how your immaterial Grand Old Designer did the job? Which means he used? Which procedures he followed? No? We know that about computers, chairs and buildings. That’s reason two why your analogy is rotten.
          Of course that’s what to expected from brains dangerously infected by the virus called creacrap. With a brain like that it’s even good stuff in, garbage out.

        • Norm Donnan

          Thanks for confirming evolution theory,no,thanks for confirming creation fact.

          No chairs dont create themselves but someone did.No they didnt come from stardust which slowly,over millions of years became trees which four pieces of wood came together and a dead cow floating down the river got stuck on the wood which rotted down leaving the skin and this became the first chair.
          This is all from the brains of the most amazing scientific minds.No nothing at all can be proven scientifically but you can read it all in the latest edition of “Braindead Evolution”

        • MNb

          Repeating your erroneous analogy doesn’t make it valid. You have addressed none of the points I made, thus showing that you’re a braindead product indeed.

        • Helpful, thanks. Is there a point here?

        • adam

          Obviously Adolph Hitler and Rudolph Hess WERE practicing christians.

          I didnt say that they were baby rapers.
          No I was raped, are you a raper?

        • Pofarmer

          What about all the good practicing Christians who followed them?

        • asmondius

          He will appreciate Al for withstanding your mockery in His name in order to bring you His love.

        • Kodie

          Is that what your sock puppet thinks he’s doing? Why don’t “you” ask “him”?

        • Oh? Since Al is unable to do it, perhaps you can show us that this supernatural being exists.

        • Greg G.

          What does it matter what slavery was like back then? It is Christians who don’t seem to understand ancient slavery. They keep saying that there was only bond servants who were free after six years. This is an apologetics lie.

          The Bible is full of “Thou shalt not” and “Don’t do as the nations do”. Why couldn’t the Bible just say “You were slaves in Egypt, you will hold not slaves”.

          A Roman pagan writer who thinks of slaves as friends who should be treated well.

          “‘They are slaves,’ people declare. NO, rather they are men.
          ‘Slaves! NO, comrades.
          ‘Slaves! NO, they are unpretentious friends.
          ‘Slaves! NO, they are our fellow-slaves, if one reflects that Fortune has equal rights over slaves and free men alike. That is why I smile at those who think it degrading for a man to dine with his slave.

          But why should they think it degrading? It is only purse-proud etiquette… All night long they must stand about hungry and dumb… They are not enemies when we acquire them; we make them enemies… This is the kernel of my advice: Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your betters.

          ‘He is a slave.’ His soul, however, may be that of a free man.”
              — Seneca the Younger, Epistulae Morales, 47.

          Jesus doesn’t think slaves should even be thanked for their service.

          7 “Who among you would say to your slave who has just come in from plowing or tending sheep in the field, ‘Come here at once and take your place at the table’? 8 Would you not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, put on your apron and serve me while I eat and drink; later you may eat and drink’? 9 Do you thank the slave for doing what was commanded? 10 So you also, when you have done all that you were ordered to do, say, ‘We are worthless slaves; we have done only what we ought to have done!’” –Jesus, Luke 17:7-10

          Why were pagans so far ahead of Jesus on slavery?

          What the Bible says about slavery

          Genesis 17:12-13 (NRSV)
          12 Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring. 13 Both the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money must be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

          Deuteronomy 15:12-17
          12 If a member of your community, whether a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and works for you six years, in the seventh year you shall set that person free. 13 And when you send a male slave out from you a free person, you shall not send him out empty-handed. 14 Provide liberally out of your flock, your threshing floor, and your wine press, thus giving to him some of the bounty with which the Lord your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; for this reason I lay this command upon you today. 16 But if he says to you, “I will not go out from you,” because he loves you and your household, since he is well off with you, 17 then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his earlobe into the door, and he shall be your slave forever. You shall do the same with regard to your female slave.

          Exodus 12:43-45 (NRSV)
          43 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance for the passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, 44 but any slave who has been purchased may eat of it after he has been circumcised; 45 no bound or hired servant may eat of it.

          Exodus 17:28,32 (NRSV)
          28 When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall not be liable.
          32 If the ox gores a male or female slave, the owner shall pay to the slaveowner thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

          Exodus 21:2-6
          2 When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave declares, “I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out a free person,” 6 then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.

          Exodus 21:7-11
          7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt unfairly with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish the food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out without debt, without payment of money.

          Exodus 21:20-21
          20 When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

          Leviticus 22:10-11 (NRSV)
          10 No lay person shall eat of the sacred donations. No bound or hired servant of the priest shall eat of the sacred donations; 11 but if a priest acquires anyone by purchase, the person may eat of them; and those that are born in his house may eat of his food.

          Leviticus 25:44-46
          44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.

          Luke 7:2-10 (NRSV)
          2 A centurion there had a slave whom he valued highly, and who was ill and close to death. 3 When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders to him, asking him to come and heal his slave. 4 When they came to Jesus, they appealed to him earnestly, saying, “He is worthy of having you do this for him, 5 for he loves our people, and it is he who built our synagogue for us.” 6 And Jesus went with them, but when he was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to say to him, “Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; 7 therefore I did not presume to come to you. But only speak the word, and let my servant be healed. 8 For I also am a man set under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and the slave does it.” 9 When Jesus heard this he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd that followed him, he said, “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.” 10 When those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the slave in good health.

          Luke 12:47-48
          47 That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded.

          Ephesians 6:5-9
          5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; 6 not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7 Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, 8 knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free. 9 And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality.

          Colossians 3:22
          22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord.

          1 Timothy 6:1
          6 Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed.

          Titus 2:9
          9 Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back,

          1 Peter 2:18-20
          18 Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. 19 For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. 20 If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval.

        • asmondius

          The terms ‘slave’ and ‘servant’ are oft used interchangeably and their meanings confused in various translations of the Bible. For example, your version of the text for Luke 7:2-10 states ‘slave’ whereas mine states ‘servant’. Even your version contradicts itself with ‘But only speak the word, and let my servant be healed.’ Jesus was not Abraham Lincoln, He was not here to free the slaves.

        • Greg G.

          It just goes to show that you can’t really trust Bible translators.

          It’s too bad the Bible was written that way. There was so much slavery because of it. Your hero, Jesus, fucked up.

        • “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.” (Lev. 24:44-6)

          That’s my favorite Bible quote. I think we’re talking slave, not servant.

          Jesus was not Abraham Lincoln, He was not here to free the slaves.

          Thanks for the frank admission, bro.

          Seriously, letting the Bible speak for itself is the best way.

        • hector_jones

          Al’s right. Slavery in ancient times was just like working on the assembly line at Ford with a full benefits and retirement package, 3 weeks vacation, a high wage plus overtime, giving the slave plenty of disposable income to buy a house, a car and raise a family. How could the perfect creator of the universe come up with anything less than that? It’s inconceivable!

        • asmondius

          Another Flintstones historian.

        • Kodie

          This is your response? Try to be more like a literate person, and if you see an error, correct it.

        • hector_jones

          For all his numerous flaws, Al at least tries to make an actual argument. asmondius is just a troll.

        • hector_jones

          Oh 3 words this time. Good for you.

        • adam

          What does THAT have to do with WHERE in the bible is says these things are bad?.
          .
          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • hector_jones

          The causes of slavery in ancient times were people discovered that robbing other people of their property and freedom and forcing them to work for you was a great way to increase your wealth and power. It was all very Godly.

        • asmondius

          er – no.

        • hector_jones

          Oh what a devastating rebuttal. However will I respond?
          How about, ‘er – yes’? Oh look, that worked.

        • adam

          What does THAT have to do with WHERE in the bible is says these things are bad?.

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • asmondius

          Don’t let One Note Charlie waste your time.

        • adam

          YOU know you put this all to rest by just DEMONSTRATING that your god is NOT IMAGINARY…

          Demonstrate some of the MAGIC that you say is the power of YOUR god?.

        • How does this address my question?

          The Bible gives terrible moral advice. You lose.

        • Al

          I need to know how much you know about the background of this issue. Your questions and comments makes me think you have not studied this issue that much.

        • adam

          You comments makes us all think you have not studied this issue much?

          Now tell where in the Bible it says these things are bad?

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • SuperMark

          or you could just re-read, because i know you were there, bob’s posts on slavery…

        • I’ve studied this quite a lot. Read my other posts on slavery.

          (Oh–sorry. You don’t do that, do you?)

        • Al

          I looked them over and didn’t see you reference any OT scholarly works on slavery. Sorry. Dan Savage doesn’t count.

        • Greg G.

          What? The Bible isn’t good enough for you? You recognize that the Bible is evil but you want to pretend an apologist can explain away the evil.

        • Kodie

          This is why I call you a typical dishonest Christian. The bible itself doesn’t tell you what you want it to, so you have to read some other dumbfuck revise what it says and means.

          You’re a sinner according to you, you’re a daily liar, and god knows you never asked for forgiveness for that.

        • Al

          This is embarrassing. You need to stay on the sidelines and learn before you post. Give us all a break.

        • Kodie

          Embarrassing to whom?

        • asmondius

          You. Imagine your Mom or your boss reading your posts. I doubt they would be impressed.

        • Kodie

          Is that supposed to mean something to me? Use as many aliases and sock puppets, you can’t hide from god, you lying sack of shit.

        • MNb

          BWAHAHAHAHA! So that’s your big worry when writing comments: looking bad in the eyes of your mom and boss. Well, I couldn’t care less and I don’t think Kodie does. We are responsible for ourselves, unlike silly childish you.

        • asmondius

          That explains your irresponsible behavior.

        • 90Lew90

          I wonder how impressed your mother or boss would be with your vacuous, snarky little contributions everywhere you go. Your mother might wonder what happened her nice boy and your boss might start wondering about your intelligence.

        • adam

          YOU know you put this all to rest by just DEMONSTRATING that your god is NOT IMAGINARY…

          Demonstrate some of the MAGIC that you say is the power of YOUR god?

        • I recommend applying that test to your own comments.

        • adam

          What does THAT have to do with WHERE in the bible is says these things are bad?.

          When are YOU going to demonstrate for us that your god is real and not IMAGINARY?

        • Norm Donnan

          True but we do need some honest female atheist logic of which Kodie is such an accurate representation.

        • asmondius

          How is your acne issue coming along?

          Hey Bob – are you proud that this is what passes for intelligent discourse on your blog lately?

        • Kodie

          I don’t know if I should tell you this, but I was a frequent poster who dropped out for a while, and about a month ago, Bob contacted me personally because I was apparently missed and people wondered what happened to me, so he wanted to give them an update. .

        • MNb

          I think it impolite to ask you, but yes, I wondered that too. The most important thing is you’re back and have lost nothing of your punch. That makes me glad.

        • Norm Donnan

          Hey l dropped out for a while and Bob never contacted me,Bob????are you biased and bigoted???
          I missed you Kodie for sure,as did Mark.

        • Kodie

          I’m sure I’m not the only one, but I hoped you died.

        • Norm Donnan

          Love you too sweety,xx

        • Norm Donnan

          Hey,how awesome would that be for me. I do look forward to the spirit realm.

        • In the case of who I’d like hanging around here commenting, yes, I’m biased.

        • MNb

          She lowers her level to make sure you understand her point. As the dishonest christian you are you don’t turn the other cheek. Instead you drag down the level a bit more, so that you don’t have to address her point.
          Which means it’s a good one.

        • Pofarmer

          Let me get you a fainting couch.

        • adam

          Ad hominem noted.

          Obviously ad hominem is the VERY best evidence for god that Norm can muster.

          Dont be so ashamed of our lack of intelligent discussion, you COULD get better if you really TRY…

        • Greg G.

          The “acne” comment was from Norm, who agrees with you and Al.

        • Kodie

          Assmondiass was actually the earlier comment, this one that you responded to. Norm followed suit, that’s all they can do is gang up on a woman.

        • Greg G.

          He seems to have a lot of commentary going on in his head. He forgets that we only have access to what he types but not what he was thinking before he began to type. It’s hard to cipher what he’s talking about, let alone what he wants to say about it.

        • Kodie

          It’s misogynistic objectification. You can’t tell because they’re too prude to say I’m too ugly to fuck.

        • Norm Donnan

          A person with a nice personality and good character is much better than a pretty face,still think roaccutane is worth a try,it worked for me.

        • Kodie

          All you are is a misogynist toward me so I will just flag all your responses unless you can shape it up.

        • Norm Donnan

          You know that misogynist doesnt mean undeservedly nice dont you?

        • MNb

          So you are trying and failing to defend your misogyny by getting judgmental. That’s not progress. Well, at least your comment didn’t get censored.

        • Norm Donnan

          Give it time Mark,you know how the insecure feel threatened and defensive over nothing.

        • Pofarmer

          And you know how judgemental assholes don’t know proper behavior.

        • Norm Donnan

          Thats true but really Poe what can you expect when ppl live a life of denial of the obvious,they may tend to be rude but hey,we need to be patient with you/them.

        • Kodie

          Then why did Bob delete your misogynist comments?

        • Norm Donnan

          I havnt a clue Kodie.When someone says you suffer from acne and l say “hey l did aswell,and this is what l took to fix it”.Well,if that is what you term as misogynist you really need to get a dictionary.
          I suspect because you seem to be an angry person you would have mistaken a genuine comment as something derogatory.

        • 90Lew90

          “When someone says you suffer from acne and l say “hey l did aswell,and this is what l took to fix it”.”

          They then say: “But I just told you you suffer from acne. You must have been sold snake oil.”

        • Norm Donnan

          ???

        • 90Lew90

          I quoted you directly. If you don’t get the joke I made of it, you don’t appear to understand what you yourself wrote. Now, about your literacy…

        • Norm Donnan

          Funny thats all you people talk about is my literacy,how about you wimps sitting at your desks all day come and help me build a house and we will see what incompetent fools you all are.

        • 90Lew90

          Norm my friend. I tend a large garden that helps keep me almost completely self-sufficient in vegetables. I do most of the upkeep of my father’s house myself. I’m pretty proficient with fibreglass which was my father’s business. Before he went into that, he was a flight engineer and taught me the basics of combustion engines, even though I don’t drive, I can figure out problems on your basic old banger. I built three large raised beds for the old man out of old railway sleepers a couple of weeks ago. At Stendhal Festival ( http://www.stendhalfestival.com/ ) outside my town I built fences and helped with a couple of the stages. In my spare time when I’m not studying law I like to read, drink and watch films. And travel, but I don’t get to do that as much as I used to. I’m also interested in cooking. I make bread with natural, airborne yeast. I also forage for wild mushrooms at this time of year here: http://www.discovernorthernireland.com/Roe-Valley-Country-Park-Limavady-P2922 and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binevenagh . Yesterday I found four King Boletes and a giant chanterelle. I have a curious mind. Sometimes a blessing, sometimes a curse. I grew up in Northern Ireland when it was as rough as guts and, despite being gay, learned pretty quickly that I can ha