{"id":109978,"date":"2025-04-22T18:22:30","date_gmt":"2025-04-23T00:22:30","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/danpeterson\/?p=109978"},"modified":"2025-04-22T23:03:40","modified_gmt":"2025-04-23T05:03:40","slug":"looking-at-arguments-for-a-transphysical-self","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/danpeterson\/2025\/04\/looking-at-arguments-for-a-transphysical-self.html","title":{"rendered":"Looking at arguments for a &#8220;transphysical self&#8221;"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<figure id=\"attachment_102221\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-102221\" style=\"width: 597px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2023\/10\/A732750-Large-2-scaled.jpeg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-102221\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2023\/10\/A732750-Large-2-scaled.jpeg\" alt=\"HCK in a straw hat\" width=\"597\" height=\"398\"><\/a><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-102221\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quinton Kappel, depicting Heber C. Kimball in a still photograph from the set of the 2024 Interpreter Foundation film \u201cSix Days in August\u201d that, at the time, was located near Rochester, New York, at the Genesee Country Village and Museum. \u00a0Not too terribly distant from the tiny hamlet of Mendon.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p>Yesterday, I published an article in <em>Meridian Magazine<\/em> about a reported phenomenon that puzzles me and that some of you might find . . . well, curious: <a href=\"https:\/\/latterdaysaintmag.com\/remarkable-signs-in-the-heavens-the-night-joseph-got-the-plates\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cRemarkable Signs in the Heavens the Night Joseph Got the Plates.\u201d<\/a>\u00a0 If nothing else, you might <em>enjoy<\/em> it.<\/p>\n<figure id=\"attachment_109981\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-109981\" style=\"width: 597px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2025\/04\/492116386_9682289148516204_3625911116926031951_n.jpg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-109981\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2025\/04\/492116386_9682289148516204_3625911116926031951_n.jpg\" alt=\"Papa Francesco speaks m vd dcdmA quote from Pope Francis\" width=\"597\" height=\"568\"><\/a><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-109981\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">A quotation from the late pope<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p>Two very different takes on the legacy of Pope Francis:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/firstthings.com\/pope-francis-my-worst-protestant-nightmare\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cPope Francis, My Worst Protestant Nightmare\u201d<\/a> (in the Catholic-leaning magazine <em>First Things<\/em>, written by Carl Trueman, a Protestant theologian whom I admire and who actually spoke at the annual FAIR conference a year or two ago)<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.deseret.com\/opinion\/2025\/04\/21\/pope-francis-spoke-truth-to-power\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cOpinion: Francis was a champion for the poor\u201d<\/a> (from the editorial board of the <em>Deseret News<\/em>)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<figure id=\"attachment_25832\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-25832\" style=\"width: 597px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2015\/08\/800px-Ruined_church_3875572734.jpg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-25832\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2015\/08\/800px-Ruined_church_3875572734.jpg\" alt=\"Visby church ruins\" width=\"597\" height=\"400\"><\/a><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-25832\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">This photograph of a ruined church in Europe was taken after the advent of the Internet.<br>(Wikimedia Commons public domain photo)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p>I continue to watch with interest the data on religiosity and religious attendance for the United States and beyond (and, according to some, to do my own personal best [by dint of my toxic personality] to drive rates of religious belief and religious activity down). \u00a0Here are some recent, or relatively recent, articles on the subject that some might find of interest:<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.deseret.com\/faith\/2025\/02\/26\/is-religion-dying-religious-landscape-research\/?utm_campaign=State%20of%20Faith&amp;utm_medium=email&amp;_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_Lbq1hFxJjcKF86cnxsD-vVDafX1q_GNVrCSPk8P36u4p9bT9GCa75NqnSRFCIFrXrjjqkk8TtW1cEjItcXFBiu9NCIyQxfnYpQipbDFn898y_HBk&amp;_hsmi=357719574&amp;utm_content=357719574&amp;utm_source=hs_email\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cAfter decades of change, the U.S. religious landscape has stabilized. Will it last?:\u00a0Many questions remain about whether recent stabilization is sustainable, but religion scholars say we should be ready for more plot twists\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.graphsaboutreligion.com\/p\/religion-in-2024-the-plateau-is-real?utm_source=share&amp;utm_medium=android&amp;r=9ewas&amp;fbclid=IwY2xjawJ0B_1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHiN-d7fHAVBoZZA6Qy6AWWn2r92z7zKlj66a-lux56BFQ6vkXxtXUbDhsPko_aem_lrhZQhbRY_PMmQJZBTqAcw&amp;triedRedirect=true\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cReligion in 2024: The Plateau Is Real:\u00a0But there\u2019s no evidence of a religious revival, either.\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/religionunplugged.com\/news\/2025\/4\/8\/religion-in-2024-the-plateau-of-the-religious-nones-continues\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cThe Plateau Of The Religious Nones Continues\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.deseret.com\/magazine\/2025\/04\/06\/andrew-teal-understanding-the-nones\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cUnderstanding the \u2018nones\u2019:\u00a0Distinguishing between cultural identity and authenticity\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/religionnews.com\/2025\/04\/14\/america-isnt-becoming-less-spiritual-its-becoming-differently-spiritual\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cAmerica isn\u2019t becoming less spiritual. It\u2019s becoming differently spiritual. \u2014 People increasingly craft their spiritual lives according to personal values, rather than institutional dictates.\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.realclearreligion.org\/2025\/04\/18\/are_gen_zers_becoming_more_religious_1104958.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cAre Gen Zers Becoming More Religious?\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.realclearreligion.org\/2025\/04\/18\/young_people_are_converting_to_catholicism_en_masse_1104947.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cYoung People are Converting to Catholicism En Masse\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.realclearreligion.org\/2025\/04\/18\/this_easter_the_church_is_rising_from_the_grave_1104963.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cThis Easter, the Church Is Rising from the Grave\u201d<\/a> \u00a0(I have some disagreements with the author about Muslims and Islam, but it\u2019s an interesting piece.)<\/p>\n<figure id=\"attachment_41298\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-41298\" style=\"width: 597px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2017\/04\/Paradise_Utah_Tithing_Office.jpeg.jpeg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-41298\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2017\/04\/Paradise_Utah_Tithing_Office.jpeg.jpeg\" alt=\"Paradise Tithing Office\" width=\"597\" height=\"397\"><\/a><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-41298\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">The old \u201ctithing office\u201d in Paradise, Utah, is now a tiny museum of the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers \u00a0(Wikimedia Commons public domain photo)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p>Here\u2019s a significant news story that you might have missed:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/bycommonconsent.com\/2025\/04\/21\/tithing-class-action-dismissed\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cTithing Class Action Dismissed\u201d<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/julieroys.com\/es\/federal-judge-tosses-tithing-lawsuit-against-mormon-church-evangelicals-backed-dismissal\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cFederal Judge Tosses Tithing Lawsuit Against Mormon Church; Evangelicals Backed Dismissal\u201d<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<figure id=\"attachment_25962\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-25962\" style=\"width: 597px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2015\/08\/800px-Baby_on_Back.jpg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-25962\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2015\/08\/800px-Baby_on_Back.jpg\" alt=\"Naked baby holding feet\" width=\"597\" height=\"373\"><\/a><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-25962\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">We all begin life innocent and sweet. \u00a0And then something happens to us.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p>Wow. \u00a0Last night and, to my surprise, again today I had an unexpected and remarkably unpleasant online encounter with someone whom I once knew. \u00a0It was really, really nasty. \u00a0As Palpatine is reported to have said, \u201cThe hate is strong with this one.\u201d \u00a0I hadn\u2019t thought about him in several years. I hope not to think about him again for several years to come. \u00a0Sigh. \u00a0Humans can be unappealing.<\/p>\n<figure id=\"attachment_94053\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-94053\" style=\"width: 576px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2022\/01\/IMG_3780-rotated.jpeg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-94053\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/186\/2022\/01\/IMG_3780-rotated.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"576\" height=\"768\"><\/a><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-94053\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view from Maui across to L\u0101na\u02bbi at sunset, taken by my wife with her iPhone a year or two ago.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p>Flying over to Hawai\u2019i a few weeks ago, I read <a href=\"https:\/\/digital.library.unt.edu\/ark:\/67531\/metadc2416746\/m1\/1\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Patrick Brissey, \u201cAnalysis of Recent Objections to the Traditional Near-Death Experience Argument for a Transphysical Self,\u201d <em>Journal of Near-Death Studie<\/em>s 41\/31 (Fall 2023): 202-238<\/a>. \u00a0Patrick Brissey, Ph.D., is an instructor in the Department of Philosophy at the University of South Carolina. \u00a0I\u2019ll share a few passages from his article with you here:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>In this paper, I defend the traditional argument for a transphysical self from near-death experiences and respond to prominent objections in the literature that have accrued over the last decade, including naturalist interpretations by Borjigin et al., Vicente et al., and Parnia et al. in the AWARE I and II studies. \u00a0(Abstract, 202)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>For the sake of conciseness, Dr. Brissey refers to what he calls the \u201ctraditional near-death experience argument for a transphysical self\u201d as \u201cTNDEA,\u201d and, for a succinct formulation of the argument, he cites John Martin Fischer, who actually <em>rejects<\/em>\u00a0it:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>It seems to people who have had NDEs that their rich and detailed experiences occurred when their brains were \u201coffline,\u201d that is, <em>incapable of supporting conscious experiences<\/em>. \u00a0The individual may be in a coma due to a stroke, cardiac arrest, or accident, or the individual may be under anesthesia. \u00a0During these periods the brain is incapable of conscious experience, and yet <em>it seems that the NDEs occur during these times<\/em>. \u00a0If the brain is offline during the NDEs,<em> it seems that there must be some nonphysical mechanism that produces them<\/em>. \u00a0(202, emphasis added by Brissey)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Dr. Brissey himself provides a formalized version of the TNDEA, as follows:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>P1 [<em>The Ontological Premise<\/em>] \u00a0If a person has conscious experiences while the brain is nonfunctional (offline), then the mind can operate independent of the brain, and there is a transphysical aspect of the self.<\/p>\n<p>P2 [<em>The Empirical Premise] \u00a0<\/em>Research shows that it is likely that NDErs have conscious experiences while the brain is nonfunctional.<\/p>\n<p>P3 [<em>The Supernatural Conclusion<\/em>] \u00a0Therefore, the mind can operate independent of the brain, and there is a transphysical component of the self. \u00a0(203)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Now, I realize that the term <em>transphysical<\/em> is a bit problematic from a Latter-day Saint perspective and that the term <em>supernatural<\/em> may also be open to challenge. \u00a0But these are issues for another day, and relatively minor in any case. \u00a0For my present purposes, they are not relevant.<\/p>\n<p>Speaking of the syllogism above, Brissey writes that<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>By logical inference, the conclusion follows necessarily from the premises. \u00a0The issue is whether the premises are true. \u00a0In this paper, I defend the TNDEA and respond to prominent objections that have accrued in the literature over the past decade of NDE studies. \u00a0(203)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>So he proceeds to outline the approach that he will take:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Essentially, The Ontological Premise is not at issue among authors in the professional literature. \u00a0Not only supporters of the TNDEA but even prominent detractors have indicated that if there is continued consciousness in a nonfunctional brain, then there is a transcendent self. . . .<\/p>\n<p>Given this acknowledgment the common skeptical response to the TNDEA is not to deny P1, the Ontological Premise, but to deny P2, the Empirical Premise. \u00a0The issue is whether there are incontrovertible, or at least highly credible, cases in which mental activity occurred without reliance on the brain. \u00a0Given this issue, I turn to a defense of P2, the Empirical Premise. \u00a0(204)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>In the remainder of the article, Dr. Brissey fleshes out his defense of P2.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u00a0 Yesterday, I published an article in Meridian Magazine about a reported phenomenon that puzzles me and that some of you might find . . . well, curious: \u201cRemarkable Signs in the Heavens the Night Joseph Got the Plates.\u201d\u00a0 If nothing else, you might enjoy it. Two very different takes on the legacy of Pope [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1019,"featured_media":109981,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[3973,25387,788,900,903,2265],"class_list":["post-109978","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-kimball","tag-mendon","tag-mormon","tag-nde","tag-near-death-experience","tag-new-york"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Looking at arguments for a &quot;transphysical self&quot;<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"&nbsp; Yesterday, I published an article in Meridian Magazine about a reported phenomenon that puzzles me and that some of you might find . . . well,\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/danpeterson\/2025\/04\/looking-at-arguments-for-a-transphysical-self.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Looking at arguments for a &quot;transphysical self&quot;\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"&nbsp; 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