17. Ecclesiastes 9:5: “The Dead Know Nothing” / Psalm 146:4: “His Thoughts Perish,” Etc.

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 53rd refutation of Banzoli’s writings. From  5-25-22 until 11-12-22 (almost half a year) he didn’t write even one single word in reply. Since then he has counter-responded three times. Why so few and so late? Well, he says it’s because my articles are “without exception poor, superficial and weak . . . only a severely cognitively impaired person would be inclined to take” them “seriously.” He didn’t “waste time reading” 37 of my first 40 replies (three articles being his proof of the worthlessness of all of my 4,000+ articles and 51 books). He also denied that I had a “job” and claimed that I didn’t “work.” But he concluded that replying to me is so “entertaining” that he resolved to “make a point of rebutting” my articles “one by one.” I disposed of his relentlessly false personal insults in Facebook posts dated 11-13-22 and 11-15-22 and 11-23-22.

My current effort is a major multi-part response to Banzoli’s 1900-page self-published book, The Legend of the Immortality of the Soul [A Lenda da Imortalidade da Alma], published on 1 August 2022.  He claims to have “cover[ed] in depth all the immortalist arguments” and to have “present[ed] all the biblical proofs of the death of the soul . . .” and he confidently asserted: “the immortality of the soul is at the root of almost all destructive deception and false religion.” He himself admits on page 18 of his Introduction that what he is opposing is held by “nearly all the Christians in the world.” A sincere unbiblical error (and I assume his sincerity) is no less dangerous than a deliberate lie, and we apologists will be “judged with greater strictness” for any false teachings that we spread (Jas 3:1).

I use RSV for the Bible passages (including ones that Banzoli cites) unless otherwise indicated. Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English. Occasionally I slightly modify clearly inadequate translations, so that his words will read more smoothly and meaningfully in English. His words will be in blue.

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See the other installments:

See also the related articles:

Seven Replies Re Interceding Saints (vs. Lucas Banzoli) [5-25-22]

Answer to Banzoli’s “Challenge” Re Intercession of Saints [9-20-22]

Bible on Praying Straight to God (vs. Lucas Banzoli) [9-21-22]

Reply to Banzoli’s “Analyzing the ‘evidence’ of saints’ intercession” [9-22-22]

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Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give thee praise? [cited by Banzoli on pp. 369, 608, 704, 770, 777, 799, 1199, and 1269]

Psalm 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into silence. [cited by Banzoli on pp. 756 and 1269]

Psalm 146:4 When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish. [KJV: “his thoughts perish”] [cited by Banzoli on pp. 313, 464, 741, 746, 777, 799, 1199, and 1265]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost. [6] Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun. . . . [10] Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. [9:5 cited by Banzoli on pp. 369, 563, 715, 754, 756, 777, 782, 799, 1199, 1257, and 1269 / 9:10 cited on pp. 53, 535, 603, 704, 743,  753, 777, 782, 955, 1199, and 1224]

Isaiah 38:18 For Sheol cannot thank thee, death cannot praise thee; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for thy faithfulness. [cited by Banzoli on pp. 369, 553, 611, 630, 643, 743, 756, 770, and 790]

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Proverbs 26:11 Like a dog that returns to his vomit is a fool that repeats his folly.

An argumentum ad nauseam (also known as an argument by repetition) is the logical fallacy that something becomes true if it is repeated often enough. It is a subset of argument by assertion and is an informal fallacy. An ad nauseam argument that can be easily shown to be false leads to the “point refuted a thousand times”.

Due to the modern 24 hour cable news cycle and the fact that every idiot now has a blog, argumentum ad nauseam has become particularly prevalent. In politics it is usually used in the form of a talking point, which is then reduced to a three second sound bite and is repeated at every available opportunity. On the blogosphere it takes the form of a meme, where every like-minded blogger repeats a statement used by a fellow blogger. Twitter . . . has only made this latter form of viral propaganda worse.

Repeating an opinion again and again seems to convince people that it is true, in large part because it simulates the effect of an appeal to the people (argumentum ad populum). Moreover, by assuming what needs proof, it is circular, and therefore amounts to begging the question (petitio principii). (RationalWiki, “Argumentum ad nauseam“)

Banzoli, is of course, utilizing all these passages to prove (so he wrongly thinks) that the dead are not conscious at all, and that they are “asleep.” John Calvin commented on Psalm 115:17, Isaiah 38:18 (referencing Hezekiah) and other similar passages (Ps 30:9; 88:11; Ecclesiasticus [deuterocanon!] 17:26):

We answer, that in these passages the term “dead” is not applied simply to those who have paid the common debt of nature when they depart this life: nor is it simply said that the praises of God cease at death; but the meaning partly is, that none will sing praises to the Lord save those who have felt his goodness and mercy; and partly, that his name is not celebrated after death, because his benefits are not, there declared among men as on the earth. Let us consider all the passages, and handle them in order, so that we may give to each its proper meaning. First, let us learn this much, that though by death the dissolution of the present life is repeatedly signified, and by the lower region, (infernus,) the grave, yet it is no uncommon thing for Scripture to employ these terms for the anger and withdrawal of the power of God; so that persons are said to die and descend into the lower region, or to dwell in the lower region, when they are alienated from God, or prostrated by the judgment of God, or crushed by his hand. The lower region itself (infernus ipse) may signify, not the grave, but abyss and confusion. And this meaning, which occurs throughout Scripture, is most familiar in the Psalms: “Let death come upon them, and let them go down alive into the pit,” (infernum:) Again, “O my God, be not silent, lest I become like those who go down into the pit,” (lacum:) Again, “O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the lower region, (inferno,) and saved me from these going down into the pit,” (lacum:) Again, “Let sinners be turned into infernus, and all the nations which forget God:” Again, “Had not the Lord assisted me, my soul had almost dwelt in infernus:” Again, “Our bones have been scattered along infernus:” Again, “He hath placed me in dark places, like the dead of the world.” (Psalm 28:1; 53:15; 30:4; 9:18; 14:7; 143:3.) . . .

In these places it signifies not so much the locality, as the condition of those whom God has condemned and doomed to destruction. . . .

To make a conclusion, let one passage suffice us, which so graphically depicts both conditions as fully to explain its own meaning, without our saying a word: It is in Psalm 49, “Those who confide in much strength and glory in the multitude of riches. The brother does not redeem, will man redeem? Will he not give his own atonement to God, and the price of redemption for his soul, and labor for ever, and still live even to the end? Shall he not see death, when he shall see the wise dying? The unwise and the foolish will perish together. Like sheep they have been laid in the grave, (infernus.) Death shall feed upon them; and the just will rule over them in the morning, and assistance will perish in the grave (infernus,) from their glory. Nevertheless God will redeem my soul from the hand of hell, (infernus,) when He will receive me.” The sum is, those who trust in their riches and strength will die and descend into infernus; the rich and the poor, the foolish and the wise, will perish together: he who hopes in the Lord will be free from the power of hell, (infernus.)

I maintain that these names “DEATH” and “HELL,” (Mors et Infernus,) cannot have any other meaning in the verses of the Psalms which they obtrude upon us, nor in that song of Hezekiah; and I hold that this can be proved by clear arguments: for in the verses, “Wilt thou do wonders to the dead?” etc., and “What advantage is there in my blood?” etc., either Christ the head of believers, or the Church his body speaks, shunning and deprecating death as something horrid and detestable. This too is done by Hezekiah in his song. Why do they shudder so at the name of death, if they feel God to be merciful and gracious to them? Is it because they are no more to be anything? But they will escape from this turbulent world, and instead of inimical temptations and disquietude, will have the greatest ease and blessed rest. And as they will be nothing, they will feel no evil, and will be awakened at the proper time to glory, which is neither delayed by their death, nor hastened by their life. Let us turn to the examples of other saints, and see how they felt on the subject. When Noah dies he does not deplore his wretched lot. Abraham does not lament. Jacob, even during his last breath, rejoices in waiting for the salvation of the Lord. Job sheds no tears. Moses, when informed by the Lord that his last hour is at hand, is not moved. All, as far as we can see, embrace death with a ready mind. The words in which the saints answer the call of the Lord uniformly are, “Here I am, Lord!” . . .

We conclude, therefore, that in these passages “death” is equivalent to a feeling of the anger and judgment of God, and being disturbed and alarmed by this feeling. Thus Hezekiah, when he saw that he was leaving his kingdom exposed to the insult and devastation of the enemy, and leaving no offspring from which the hope of the Gentiles might descend, was filled with anxiety, by these signs of an angry and punishing God, not at the terror of death, which he afterwards overcame without any deprecation. On the whole, I acknowledge that death in itself is an evil, when it is the curse and penalty of sin, and is both itself full of terror and desolation, and drives those to despair who feel that it is inflicted on them by an angry and punishing God. The only thing which can temper the bitterness of its agonies is to know that God is our Father, and that we have Christ for our leader and companion. Those devoid of this alleviation regard death as confusion and eternal perdition, and therefore cannot praise God in their death.

The verse, “The dead will not praise thee,” etc., concludes the praises of the people, when giving thanks to God for having by His hand protected them from danger. Its meaning is, Had the Lord permitted us to be oppressed, and to fall into the power of the enemy, they would have insulted His Name, and boasted that they had overcome the God of Israel; but now, when the Lord has repelled and crushed their proud spirit, when he has delivered us from their cruelty by a strong hand and uplifted arm, the Gentiles cannot ask, “Where is their God?” He hath shown himself to be truly the living God! Nor can there be any doubt of his mercy, which he has so wondrously exhibited. And here those are called “dead” and “forsaken of God,” who have not felt his agency and kindness towards them, as if he had delivered up his people to the lust and ferocity of the ungodly.

This view is plainly confirmed by a speech which occurs in the Book of Baruch [again, Calvin cites the deuterocanon], or at least the book which bears his name, – ” Open thine eyes and see: for not the dead who are in hell, (infernus,) whose spirit has been torn from their bowels, will ascribe glory and justice to God; but the soul which, sad for the magnitude of the evil, walks bent and weak, and the failing eyes and the hungry soul will give glory.” (Baruch 2:17.) Here we undoubtedly see that, under the names of “dead” are included those who, afflicted and crushed by God, have gone away into destruction; and that the sad, bent, and weak soul, is that which, failing in its own strength, and having no confidence in itself, runs to the Lord, calls upon him, and from him expects assistance. Any one who will regard all these things as prosopopoeia, will find an easy method of explaining them, Substituting things for persons, and death for dead, the meaning will be, The Lord does not obtain praise for mercy and goodness when he afflicts, destroys, and punishes, (though the punishment, is just,) but then only creates a people for himself, who sing and celebrate the praise of his goodness, when he delivers and restores the hopes of those who were afflicted, bruised, and at despair. But lest they should cavil, and allege that we are having recourse to allegory, and figurative interpretations, I add, that the words may be taken without a figure.

I said that they act erroneously in concluding, from these passages, that saints after death desist from the praises of God, and that “praise” rather means making mention of the goodness of God, and proclaiming his benefits among others. The words not only admit, but necessarily require this meaning. For to announce, and narrate, and make known, as a father to his children, is not merely to have a mental conception of the Divine glory, but is to celebrate it with the lips that others may hear. Should they here rejoin that they have it in their power to do the same thing, if (as we believe) they are with God in paradise, I answer, that to be in paradise, and live with God, is not to speak to each other, and be heard by each other, but is only to enjoy God, to feel his good will, and rest in him. (Psychopannychia, 1534)

Calvin writes about Ecclesiastes 9:5:

The object of Ecclesiastes is not to show that the souls of the dead perish, but while he exhorts us early, and as we have opportunity, to confess God, he at the same time teaches that there is no time of confessing after death; that is, that there is then no time for repentance. If any of them still asks, What is to become of the sons of perdition? that is no matter of ours. I answer for believers, –

“They shall not die, but live, and show forth the works of the Lord.” “Those who dwell in His house will praise him for ever and ever.” (Psalms 118:17; 84:5.) (Ibid.)

Calvin also addresses (rather insightfully) Psalm 146:4:

It is said, secondly, (Psalm 146:4,) “His spirit will go forth and return to its earth. In that day all their thoughts perish.” Here they take “spirit” for wind, and say, that the man will go away into the earth; that there will be nothing but earth; that all his thoughts will perish; whereas if there were any life they would remain. We are not so subtle, but in our dull way call a boat, a boat, and spirit, spirit! When this spirit departs from man, the man returns to the ground out of which he was taken, as we have fully explained. It remains, therefore, to see what is meant by thoughts “perishing.” We are admonished not to put trust in men. Trust ought to be immortal. It were otherwise uncertain and unstable, seeing that the life of man passes quickly away. To intimate this, he said, that “their thoughts perish ;” that is, that whatever they designed while alive is dissipated and given to the winds. Elsewhere he says, “The sinner will see and be angry; he will gnash with his teeth and pine away; the desire of the sinner will perish,” as it is said in another place, “dissipated:” “The Lord dissipates the counsels of the heathen:” again, “Form a scheme and it will be dissipated.” The same thing, in the form of a circumlocution, is expressed by the blessed Virgin in her song, “He hath dispersed the proud in the imagination of their hearts.” (Psalm 112:10; 32:10; Isaiah 8:10; Luke 1:51.) (Ibid.)

Commentaries on Psalm 6:5

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible:

[I]t is to be admitted that there was among the ancient saints much less light on the subject of the future state than there is with us, and that they often, in giving utterance to their feelings, seemed to speak as if all were dark beyond the grave.

But, though they thus spoke in their sorrow and in their despondency, they also did, on other occasions, express their belief in a future state, and their expectation of happiness in a coming world (compare, for example, Psalm 16:10-11; Psalm 17:15).

[Psalm 16:10-11 For thou dost not give me up to Sheol, or let thy godly one see the Pit. [11] Thou dost show me the path of life; in thy presence there is fulness of joy, in thy right hand are pleasures for evermore.

Psalm 17:15 As for me, I shall behold thy face in righteousness; when I awake, I shall be satisfied with beholding thy form.]

There is no remembrance of thee; to wit, by me David, consisting both of soul and body; and no such remembrance, to wit, in way of thankfulness and praise, as the next clause of the verse limits and explains it; which he might fear would be true, not only because he should not have occasion to praise God for this deliverance, but also because he was in grievous agonies of conscience, and under terrors of God’s wrath, and his eternal damnation; which being oft incident to the saints of God under the New Testament, it is not strange if it were so also under the Old Testament. Besides he speaks of the remembrance or celebration of God’s name and grace in the land of the living, to the enlargement and edification of God’s church, and the propagation of true religion among men; which is not done in the other life, and was justly prized at so high a rate by David and other holy men, to whom therefore it must needs be a great grief to be for ever deprived of such opportunities. For otherwise David very well knew, and firmly believed, that souls departed were not extinct, but did go to God, Ecclesiastes 12:7, and there remember, and adore, and enjoy God, though quite in another way than that of which he here speaks.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:

Here, as in Psalm 30:9, Psalm 88:10-12, Psalm 115:17 (cp. Isaiah 38:18 ff.; the Book of Job; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Ecclesiastes 6:10); we meet with that dreary despairing view of the state after death, which the Hebrews shared with the rest of the ancient world. They did not look forward to annihilation, but to a dreamy, shadowy, existence which did not deserve the name of life. The dead, they thought, were cut off from all activity and enjoyment, and worst of all, from the consciousness of God’s presence, and from that communion with Him, which is the essence of ‘life’ (Psalm 30:5). . . .

It is far better, with the R.V., to retain the Hebrew word Shěôl to denote the abode of the departed. It is the O.T. equivalent of Hades, by which it is rendered in the LXX. It was thought of as a vast subterranean abyss, where all alike were gathered; a place of gloom and silence, but withal of rest, however joyless, for its shadowy denizens have no more power to do harm than good.

Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament:

The writers of the Psalms all . . . know only of one single gathering-place of the dead in the depth of the earth, where they indeed live, but it is only a quasi life, because they are secluded from the light of this world and, what is the most lamentable, from the light of God’s presence.

Commentaries on Psalm 146:4

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible:

His thoughts perish – His purposes; his schemes; his plans; his purposes of conquest and ambition; his schemes for becoming rich or great; his plans of building a house, and laying out his grounds, and enjoying life; his design of making a book, or taking a journey, or giving himself to ease and pleasure. Luke 12:19-20 : “and I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry; but God said unto him, Thou fool! this night thy soul shall be required of time.” Such are all the purposes of men!

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible:

in that very day his thoughts perish; in the day, hour, and moment he dies: not that the soul ceases, or ceases to think at death; it is immortal, and dies not; and, as it exists in a separate state after death, it retains all its powers and faculties, and, among the rest, its power of thinking; which it is capable of exercising, and does, as appears from the case of the souls under the altar, Revelation 6:9. But the meaning is, that at death all the purposes and designs of men are at an end; all their projects and schemes, which they had formed, and were pursuing, now come to nothing; whether to do good to others, or to aggrandize themselves and families; and therefore such mortal creatures are not to be depended upon, since all their promises may fail; nay, even their good designs may be frustrated; see Job 17:12.

Commentaries on Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible:

See Ecclesiastes 8:12, note; Ecclesiastes 8:14, note. . . . the dead . . . are no longer excited by the passions which belong to people in this life; their share in its activity has ceased. Solomon here describes what he sees, not what he believes; there is no reference here to the fact or the mode of the existence of the soul in another world, which are matters of faith. The last clause of Ecclesiastes 9:6 indicates that the writer confines his observations on the dead to their portion in, or relation to, this world.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:

dead know not anything—that is, so far as their bodily senses and worldly affairs are concerned (Job 14:21; Isa 63:16); also, they know no door of repentance open to them, such as is to all on earth.

neither … reward—no advantage from their worldly labors (Ec 2:18-22; 4:9).

The dead know not anything, to wit, of the actions and events in this world, as this is limited in the end of the next verse. . . .

A reward; the reward or fruit of their labours in this world, which is utterly lost as to them, and enjoyed by others. See Ecclesiastes 2:21. For otherwise, that there are future rewards after death, is asserted by Solomon elsewhere, as we have seen, and shall hereafter see.

Is forgotten, to wit, amongst living men, and even in those places where they had lived in great power and glory; as was noted, Ecclesiastes 8:10.

The context of 9:6 (“they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun”) is crucial in order to understand and properly exegete the passage. It places the “vantage-point” of the passage as “under the sun.” The dead (at least the unrighteous dead) “know nothing” about or have any “share” in the things of the earth. By ignoring this, Banzoli literally cites the passage out of context over and over. A half-truth is no better than a lie. Let’s review how he cites it. First of all, a search reveals that he never cites Ecclesiastes 9:6 itself, except for once (p. 782), and even there it’s the first part of the verse and not the second part, that I have pointed out.

[I]t was equally well known to all Jews that there was no activity after death (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Ps 6:5, 146:4; Is 38:18-19), . . . (p. 369)

“A live dog is better than a dead lion” (Eccl 9:4), because whoever died “knows nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) and has his memory “given to oblivion” (Eccl 9:5). (p. 563)

[T]hroughout the Bible the concept of intercession is always limited to people living interceding for other living people (1Ti 2:1-2; Rom 15:30; 1Th 5:25; 2Th 3:1; Heb 13:18), for the simple fact that the dead “know nothing” (Eccl 9:5). (p. 715)

“. . . the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). (p. 754; citing someone else citing the verse)

It would be useless for God to show any wonders among those who are unable to perceive them (Ps 88:10; Eccl 9:5-10). (p. 754; citing someone else)

In the previous chapter we saw that the belief of the OT authors was clearly mortalist. Although they believed in the resurrection of the dead, coming judgment and life eternal – which shows that they were far from being ignorant on the subject –, every time they describe the current state of the dead it is always and invariably as devoid of consciousness (Ec 9:5), thought (Ps 146:4), praise (Ps 6:5) or activity (Ec 9:10), . . . (p. 777)

. . . the soul descends into Sheol or Hades, there to have a dismal existence, without life and consciousness (Job 14:21; Ps 6:5, 115:7; Isa 38:19; Eccl 9:5,10). (p. 799, citing someone else)

[note: here and on p. 777, I have translated the Portugese consciência as “consciousness”: which is a permissible rendering. When I seek a Portugese translation of “consciousness” on Google Translate, it comes out as consciência]

It will also be useless to search in such Hellenistic writings for anything similar to “the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5), “there is no activity in the afterlife, nor planning, there is neither knowledge nor wisdom” (Ecclesiastes 9:10), that “in death thoughts perish” (Ps 146:4), that “the dead do not praise the Lord” (Ps 146:4). (p. 1199)

In his commentary on Ecclesiastes 9:5 he says that “Solomon seems to think that the dead people do not have any kind of feeling” . . . (p. 1257; citing Luther, who also believed in soul sleep]

“The dead do not praise the Lord, nor those who go down to silence” (Psalm 115:17); “the dead know nothing… there is no work, nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10); “Sheol does not can praise you, death cannot celebrate you ′′ (Is 38.18); . . . (p. 1269, citing someone else) 

So we see that Banzoli never mentions the crucial context of 9:6, which explains the particular perspective in 9:5 and also 9:10. This, despite the fact that he claims in his 1900-page book to have “cover[ed] in depth all the immortalist arguments”.

Commentaries on Isaiah 38:18

Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers:

In that region of dimness there are no psalms of thanksgiving, no loud hallelujahs. The thought of spiritual energies developed and intensified after death is essentially one which belongs to the “illuminated” immortality (2Timothy 1:10), of Christian thought. (Comp. Psalm 6:5; Psalm 30:9; Psalm 88:11-12; Psalm 115:17; Ecclesiastes 9:4-5; Ecclesiastes 9:10).

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible:

All these gloomy and desponding views arose from the imperfect conception which they had of the future world. It was to them a world of dense and gloomy shades – a world of night – of conscious existence indeed – but still far away from light, and from the comforts which people enjoyed on the earth. We are to remember that the revelations then made were very few and obscure; and we should deem it a matter of inestimable favor that we have a better hope, and have far more just and clear views of the employments of the future world. . . .

The word ‘praise’ here refers evidently to the public and solemn celebration of the goodness of God. It is clear, I think, that Hezekiah had a belief in a future state, or that he expected to dwell with ‘the inhabitants of the land of silence’ Isaiah 38:11 when he died. But he did not regard that state as one adapted to the celebration of the public praises of God. It was a land of darkness; an abode of silence and stillness; a place where there was no temple, and no public praise such as he had been accustomed to. A similar sentiment is expressed by David in Psalm 6:5 :

For in death there is no remembrance of thee;

In the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:

Plainly Hezekiah believed in a world of disembodied spirits; his language does not imply what skepticism has drawn from it, but simply that he regarded the disembodied state as one incapable of declaring the praises of God before men, for it is, as regards this world, an unseen land of stillness; “the living” alone can praise God on earth, in reference to which only he is speaking; Isa 57:1, 2 shows that at this time the true view of the blessedness of the righteous dead was held, though not with the full clearness of the Gospel, which “has brought life and immortality to light” (2Ti 1:10).

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Photo credit: Saint Michael the Archangel and Another Figure Recommending a Soul to the Virgin and Child in Heaven, by Bartolomeo Biscaino (1629-1657) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Part 17 of many responses to Lucas Banzoli’s 1900-page book, The Legend of the Immortality of the Soul: published on 1 August 2022. I defend historic Christianity.

16. Sheol (Hades): Merely the “Grave” or “Underground” or the Conscious Abode of Dead Souls?

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 52nd refutation of Banzoli’s writings. From  5-25-22 until 11-12-22 (almost half a year) he didn’t write even one single word in reply. Since then he has counter-responded three times. Why so few and so late? Well, he says it’s because my articles are “without exception poor, superficial and weak . . . only a severely cognitively impaired person would be inclined to take” them “seriously.” He didn’t “waste time reading” 37 of my first 40 replies (three articles being his proof of the worthlessness of all of my 4,000+ articles and 51 books). He also denied that I had a “job” and claimed that I didn’t “work.” But he concluded that replying to me is so “entertaining” that he resolved to “make a point of rebutting” my articles “one by one.” I disposed of his relentlessly false personal insults in Facebook posts dated 11-13-22 and 11-15-22 and 11-23-22.

My current effort is a major multi-part response to Banzoli’s 1900-page self-published book, The Legend of the Immortality of the Soul [A Lenda da Imortalidade da Alma], published on 1 August 2022.  He claims to have “cover[ed] in depth all the immortalist arguments” and to have “present[ed] all the biblical proofs of the death of the soul . . .” and he confidently asserted: “the immortality of the soul is at the root of almost all destructive deception and false religion.” He himself admits on page 18 of his Introduction that what he is opposing is held by “nearly all the Christians in the world.” A sincere unbiblical error (and I assume his sincerity) is no less dangerous than a deliberate lie, and we apologists will be “judged with greater strictness” for any false teachings that we spread (Jas 3:1).

I use RSV for the Bible passages (including ones that Banzoli cites) unless otherwise indicated. Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English. Occasionally I slightly modify clearly inadequate translations, so that his words will read more smoothly and meaningfully in English. His words will be in blue.

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See the other installments:

See also the related articles:

Seven Replies Re Interceding Saints (vs. Lucas Banzoli) [5-25-22]

Answer to Banzoli’s “Challenge” Re Intercession of Saints [9-20-22]

Bible on Praying Straight to God (vs. Lucas Banzoli) [9-21-22]

Reply to Banzoli’s “Analyzing the ‘evidence’ of saints’ intercession” [9-22-22]

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No wonder many immortalist apologists unfamiliar with the Hebrew text think that Solomon was speaking of the qeber (tomb) in Ecclesiastes 9:10, and not of Sheol. These changes are intentional, and are part of the subtleties with which immortalistic translators tamper with the Bible in order to obfuscate the clear truth: plain to any reader of the Hebrew, that Sheol is but the underground region of the earth. In my research to write this chapter, I discovered that Sheol appears 66 times in the Hebrew text, and that in the vast majority of them translators preferred to hide its mention, for the simple fact that the texts clearly show that it is a lifeless place where the dead are buried. In these cases, they prefer to translate it by “grave”, “tomb” or “grave”. . . . the readers unfamiliar with Hebrew are led to think that this place appears very few times in the Bible, . . . No layman can realize this when reading only translations, because the malicious translations lead to error. Instead of keeping Sheol where Sheol appears and letting the Bible interpret the Bible (i.e., that texts with less clear meaning are explained in the light of texts where the meaning is clear), they cunningly cover up Sheol in at least 80% of the texts where Sheol appears . . . immortalists take advantage of the average [Bible] reader’s ignorance. (pp. 535-536)

This is Banzoli’s infamous Vast Conspiracy of Bible Translators myth, that he spouts over and over in this ludicrously long and repetitive book (which desperately needs an editor, like I just had in my upcoming book, The Word Set in Stone: How Science, History, and Archaeology Prove Biblical Truth: Catholic Answers Press, 2023). Let’s test his theory a bit, shall we? The Revised Standard Version (RSV), published in 1952, is perhaps the most widely used Bible in English at the current time. I’ve primarily used it in my own writing for over twenty years now. I searched Sheol in the Old Testament. Banzoli says it appears 66 times there, and I’ll take his word for it. Sheol appears 65 times in the RSV Old Testament. Does that sound like a conspiracy to cover up the existence of Sheol: with a 98.5% rate of translating the Hebrew Sheol as Sheol? Was the word hidden in Ecclesiastes 9:10? No; it appears there.

I searched New American Standard Bible (NASB), published in 1971, too. It’s widely used as well (and in fact was the translation in which I read most of the Bible in the early 1980s). Evangelical Protestants especially like it. How many times does Sheol appear in the Old Testament in NASB?  It appears 64 times. Does that sound like a conspiracy to cover up the existence of Sheol: with a 97% rate of translating the Hebrew Sheol as Sheol? Was the word hidden in Ecclesiastes 9:10? No; it appears there.

How about the English Standard Version (ESV), published in 2001? It’s becoming a very popular Bible, and was translated by more than 100 evangelical scholars. It already has 250 million copies in print. It has Sheol 63 times in the Old Testament, including at Ecclesiastes 9:10. Does that sound like a conspiracy to cover up the existence of Sheol: with a 95.5% rate of translating the Hebrew Sheol as Sheol?

So, as we see, the conspiracy is faring very poorly. Too many translators are dissenting from the instructions from on high, to (how did Banzoli put it?) “tamper with the Bible in order to obfuscate the clear truth”. Now let’s move on to some actually attempted arguments by Banzoli, rather than tin foil hat conspiracy theories . . . I just want to make it very clear to my readers, the sort of irrational, paranoid mentality and mindset we are dealing with, in confronting Banzoli’s massive errors. He actually believes in this demonstrably untrue conspiratorial nonsense. It’s how he rationalizes the fact that his heretical soul sleep is rejected by (as he himself concedes), “nearly all the Christians in the world.” 

There are those who . . . [think]  that the NT authors believed that Sheol was a place with life [conscious activity], for the simple fact that Hades, as conceived by the Greeks, was a place with life. The problem with this argument is that Hades in Greek has nothing to do with the Hades of “Christian” immortalist theology, . . . (p. 538)

This is absurd. The very fact that the New Testament authors chose to use the word Hades to translate the Hebrew Sheol, proves the conception they had of the word and place: that it was an abode of conscious souls. It’s not a perfect correation, but close enough for readers to grasp the main features of Hades. Banzoli can’t simply dismiss this highly significant fact. Jesus [Luke 16:19-31) taught that Hades contained souls who could communicate with each other, since He reported that the rich man prayed to Abraham and made requests concerning his brothers. Hades appears nine times in the New Testament in the RSV. Three of them are from Jesus. Two more instances in Acts cite a well-known OT messianic text. The remaining four are in the book of Revelation.

You will never see any of these characteristics of pagan Hades being mentioned in catechism or Sunday school, for the simple fact that the immortalists themselves are obliged to recognize that the Christian conception of Hades was far removed from of the Greek conception. Those who argue that the Christian Hades must be a place of consciousness and activity after death just because it was so in the Greek conception are forced to embrace the whole endless array of pagan and mythical figures of the Greek Hades – starting with the pagan god who designates this place. (p. 539)

If the New Testament is supposedly so opposed to Greek philosophy and indeed all pagan Greek thought whatsoever, then why did Paul cite pagan Greek poets, philosophers, and dramatists (and the Greeks started philosophy and excelled in it): Acts 17:28 (Aratus: c. 315-240 B.C., Epimenides: 6th c. B.C.), 1 Corinthians 15:33 (Menander: c.342-291 B.C.: “bad company ruins good morals”), and Titus 1:12 (Epimenides, described by Paul as a “prophet”)? In fact, the line that Paul cited on Mars Hill in Athens (Acts 17:28), from Aratus, was actually, in context, referring to Zeus:

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.

For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.

Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity.

Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus.

For we are indeed his offspring… (Phaenomena 1-5)

So Paul used a pagan poet, talking about a false god (Zeus) and “Christianized” the thought, applying it to the true God. That’s Pauline apologetic method. The Church has done this, historically, by “co-opting” pagan holidays and “baptizing” them, thus eventually wiping out the old pagan holidays.  The citation from Epimenides (the poem Cretica) involves the same thing; it was originally written about Zeus; Paul (Acts 17:28 again) takes it and applies it to Yahweh, the true God:

They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one—

The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!

But thou art not dead: thou livest and abidest forever,

For in thee we live and move and have our being.

St. Paul expressly cites these pagan Greek poets and philosophers precisely because that is what his sophisticated Athens audience (including “Epicurean and Stoic philosophers” — 17:18) could understand and relate to. He was using wise apologetic method and strategy. This is Paul giving a concrete example of the evangelistic application of his dictum of 1 Corinthians 9:21: “To those outside the law I became as one outside the law — not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ — that I might win those outside the law.”

It’s the same with the New Testament use of Hades, to convey what the Old Testament called Sheol. It’s not a perfect match (anymore than Paul’s citations were), but close enough to serve the purpose. The primary aspects of the place are the same, but not all particulars are. The aspect of conscious souls abiding in this netherworld is central to the whole thing. It’s anything but merely a grave plot or the underground, as Banzoli imagines.

The big debate, therefore, revolves around the nature of Sheol: of which the OT speaks so much. As we will see, in the Bible Sheol/Hades invariably means the subterranean region of the earth where the dead are buried, although in texts of a poetic or allegorical nature there is freedom poetic to refer to Sheol in a figurative way (in the same sense as trees talk and talk to each other). But in immortalist theology, Sheol is the abode of the spirits of the dead, where they are conscious and suffering torment (if they are wicked) or enjoying peace and bliss (if they are righteous). (pp. 540-541)

Since Jesus taught precisely that in Luke 16, it’s a pretty biblical position to take! If it comes down to accepting the definitive teaching of our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ, or the contrary teaching of Lucas Banzoli, most folks know which is the wiser choice to make.

Banzoli goes on for many pages mocking the supposed belief of “immortalists” that Sheol/Hades is literally underground. Several biblical passages do refer to “under the earth” (Ex 20:4; Phil 2:10; Rev 5:3, 13) and many to “down to Sheol,” etc. But these need not be taken literally. In the Hebrew commonsense conception, mountains and the heavens represented closeness to God; hence, the contrast was Sheol or hell “down below” over against mountains and heavens. Barnes’ Notes on the Bible further elaborates:

In the great divisions here specified – of those in heaven, on the earth, and under the earth – the apostle intends, doubtless, to denote the universe. The same mode of designating the universe occurs in Revelation 5:13; Exodus 20:4; compare Psalm 96:11-12. This mode of expression is equivalent to saying, “all that is above, around, and beneath us,” and arises from what appears to us. The division is natural and obvious – that which is above us in the heavens, that which is on the earth where we dwell, and all that is beneath us.

Banzoli himself basically expresses the sense of these “directional” biblical references in another statement, commenting on verse 8 this passage:

Psalm 139:7-10 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? [8] If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there! [9] If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, [10] even there thy hand shall lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

[W]e see Sheol as the geographical antithesis of heaven, with the aim of reinforce that no matter how high or low the psalmist might go, he never would escape the omnipresence of God. (p. 554)

That’s much more of the sense which I believe the Bible is teaching, when referring to “under the earth” and so forth. It’s about a conceptual separation from God, not a literal “cave / caverns / journey to the center of the earth” approach to the afterlife. It helps people to conceptualize things in simple terms, according to biblical anthropomorphism.

In an article in the Catholic periodical, L’Osservatore Romano (11/18 August 1999), three talks given by Pope St. John Paul II were referred to:

In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.

“Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us.” [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]

It cites the pope’s actual words:

In the context of Revelation, we know that the “heaven” or “happiness” in which we will find ourselves is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit.

It is always necessary to maintain a certain restraint in describing these “ultimate realities” since their depiction is always unsatisfactory. Today, personalist language is better suited to describing the state of happiness and peace we will enjoy in our definitive communion with God. (21 July 1999)

More than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. (28 July 1999)

The term [purgatory] does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. (4 August 1999)

Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J. wrote in his Catholic Catechism (Garden City, New York: Doubleday & Co., 1975):

In spite of some popular notions to the contrary, the Church has never passed judgment as to whether purgatory is a place or in a determined space where the souls are cleansed. It simply understands the expression to mean the state or condition under which the faithful departed undergo purification. (pp. 274-275)

Catholics believe the same about Sheol. Spirits do not possess dimension or spatial characteristics, so in that sense one cannot speak of “place.” In the English language (as in biblical Hebrew), “place” is sometimes used as a synonym for “condition” or “state” and perhaps this also explains some of the confusion. For example, in my Webster’s New 20th Century Dictionary (Cleveland: World Publishing Company, 1968; 2289 large pages), no less than 25 definitions of place are given, including the following:

16. (another’s) situation or state; as, you would have acted quite the same if you were in my place.

In common English, this sense is used; for example:

I came to a place in my life where I stopped worrying so much.

Or (even more poetically or metaphorically):

A loving relationship is a place where one can fully express one’s feelings and trust another.

Note that this is a use of place for an ultimately non-material entity: human relationships or love.

Thus, again, we see that this is a matter of context and language. Place in this sense can be used as interchangeable with “state” or “condition” so that there is no contradiction, rightly understood.

For mortalists, . . . the spirit is not the “real me” but just the breath of life, something impersonal that came from God (Gen 2:7) and returns to God in death (Eccl 12:7). That’s why all dead go down to Sheol, but no one goes up to the presence of God. (p. 555)

All of the dead went to Sheol before the redemptive death of Christ. After His death, Paul writes in the following terms (as I previously referred to in #12):

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven — whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. [3] And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise — whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows — [4] and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

What this passage shows is that Paul was in heaven. He believes it is possible to be there as a “man” either “in the body” or “out of the body.” He remains himself in either scenario. If he’s in his body, it’s him (Paul). If he is out of his body, it’s still him (Paul). The logic of this passage doesn’t permit any other interpretation. . . . Paul expresses the same notion at least two other times:

2 Corinthians 5:8 . . . we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23-24  . . .  My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. [24] But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

If Paul was nonexistent after death, since a soul supposedly can’t exist apart from a body, how could he be “home with the Lord” and “be with Christ” while “away” from his “body” and “flesh”? When he says “we” would be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” this proves that he is still referring to himself as a soul, who would be with the Lord. . . . Again he says that he would “depart and be with Christ” which is in contrast to “remain[ing] in the flesh.” This absolutely proves that he is talking about himself as a continuing conscious entity who can “be with Christ” outside of his flesh or body.

Even Job, the most righteous man of his day (Job 1:8), said that “I look for Sheol as my house” (Job 17:13), which definitively proves that Sheol is not was an exclusive abode of the wicked (like hell or whatever worth). (p. 559)

No orthodox Christian who studied Last Things (eschatology) ever said that it was only for the wicked (before Christ). Jesus makes that crystal clear n Luke 16. It would be nice if Banzoli could figure this out. But he’ll keep on spouting the contrary over and over, like every other assertion he makes in his tedious book.

It’s true that the doctrines of salvation and the eternal afterlife (both for the saved and the damned) developed quite a bit in the inter-testamental period, and then all the more so in the New Testament. But there were also many clear signs or precursors of it (some remarkably explicit) all along. The book of Job seems to allude to an eternal consciousness in a resurrected body in some sort of paradisal state with God:

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth; [26] and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God, [27] whom I shall see on my side, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. (cf. 14:12-15)

The prophet Isaiah (8th c. BC) taught similarly:

Isaiah 26:19a Thy dead shall live, their bodies shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy! . . .

This is hardly a shadowy temporary existence in Sheol and then annihilation. But there is much more, too:

Genesis 5:24  Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

2 Kings 2:11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli’jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Psalms 16:10-11 For thou dost not give me up to Sheol, or let thy godly one see the Pit. [11] Thou dost show me the path of life; in thy presence there is fulness of joy, in thy right hand are pleasures for evermore.

Psalms 21:4, 6  He asked life of thee; thou gavest it to him, length of days for ever and ever. . . . [6] Yea, thou dost make him most blessed for ever; thou dost make him glad with the joy of thy presence.

Psalms 23:6b . . . I shall dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Psalms 49:7-9, 15 Truly no man can ransom himself, or give to God the price of his life, [8] for the ransom of his life is costly, and can never suffice, [9] that he should continue to live on for ever, and never see the Pit. . . . [15] But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. . . .

Psalms 73:23-26 Nevertheless I am continually with thee; thou dost hold my right hand. [24] Thou dost guide me with thy counsel, and afterward thou wilt receive me to glory. [25] Whom have I in heaven but thee? And there is nothing upon earth that I desire besides thee. [26] My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion for ever.

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, for ever and ever.

Daniel 12:1-3 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. [2] And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. [3] And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

The idea of being abandoned to Sheol is similar to eternal hellfire (a developmental precursor or “kernel” of it). Thus, eternal life or eschatological salvation is described as “thou dost not give me up to Sheol” (Ps 16:10). God delivers or rescues the righteous from Sheol (“he brings down to Sheol and raises up”: 1 Sam 2:6; cf. Ps 30:3; 49:15; 86:13; 89:48):

Deuteronomy 32:22a  For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, . . .

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give thee praise?

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall depart to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

Psalms 31:17b . . . let the wicked be put to shame, let them go dumbfounded to Sheol.

Isaiah 14:11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are the bed beneath you, and worms are your covering. (cf. 14:15 and Jesus’ reference to worms in hell: “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”: Mk 9:48)

Isaiah 38:18b . . . those who go down to the pit cannot hope for thy faithfulness.

Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Jeremiah 15:14b . . . in my anger a fire is kindled which shall burn for ever. (cf. 17:4)

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[see also many references to “the pit”: equivalent to Sheol]

. . . the odd separation that immortalists make between Hades for the wicked and “Abraham’s Bosom” for the righteous. (p. 586)

Remember, we know of this distinction straight from the lips of Jesus (Luke 16). So we have a scenario where Banzoli classifies the very teachings of Christ as “odd.” This reminds me of his pages and pages (that I dealt with in one of the past articles of this series), ranting against the souls under the altar in Revelation 6: blasting them as ungrateful, complaining sorts: directly contrary to what the text actually states. If Banzoli doesn’t like something clearly taught in Holy Scripture, he is not above condemning and mocking it. Needless to say, this is blasphemy.

As we have seen, according to them, Jesus promised the thief on the cross that he would be on that same day with him in Paradise (Luke 23:43), which according to Paul is in the third heaven, where God dwells (2 Co 12:2-4). However, if Jesus was in Hades after death (Acts 2:27) and if Sheol/Hades is the destination of all who die (Job 3:19; Ps 49:15, 31:17), how could the thief on the cross be in Paradise that very day? (p. 587)

I addressed this in these papers:

Luke 23:43 (Thief on the Cross): “Paradise” = Sheol, Not Heaven, According to Many Reputable Protestant Scholars [5-25-09]

Multiple Meanings of “Paradise” in Scripture [1-2-14]

Did Jesus Descend to Hell, Sheol, or Paradise After His Death? [National Catholic Register, 4-17-17]

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Photo credit: Saint Michael the Archangel and Another Figure Recommending a Soul to the Virgin and Child in Heaven, by Bartolomeo Biscaino (1629-1657) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Part 16 of many responses to Lucas Banzoli’s 1900-page book, The Legend of the Immortality of the Soul: published on 1 August 2022. I defend historic Christianity.

15. Hebrews 12:23: “the spirits of just men made perfect”

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 51st refutation of Banzoli’s writings. From  5-25-22 until 11-12-22 (almost half a year) he didn’t write even one single word in reply. Since then he has counter-responded three times. Why so few and so late? Well, he says it’s because my articles are “without exception poor, superficial and weak . . . only a severely cognitively impaired person would be inclined to take” them “seriously.” He didn’t “waste time reading” 37 of my first 40 replies (three articles being his proof of the worthlessness of all of my 4,000+ articles and 51 books). He also denied that I had a “job” and claimed that I didn’t “work.” But he concluded that replying to me is so “entertaining” that he resolved to “make a point of rebutting” my articles “one by one.” I disposed of his relentlessly false personal insults in Facebook posts dated 11-13-22 and 11-15-22 and 11-23-22.

My current effort is a major multi-part response to Banzoli’s 1900-page self-published book, The Legend of the Immortality of the Soul [A Lenda da Imortalidade da Alma], published on 1 August 2022.  He claims to have “cover[ed] in depth all the immortalist arguments” and to have “present[ed] all the biblical proofs of the death of the soul . . .” and he confidently asserted: “the immortality of the soul is at the root of almost all destructive deception and false religion.” He himself admits on page 18 of his Introduction that what he is opposing is held by “nearly all the Christians in the world.” A sincere unbiblical error (and I assume his sincerity) is no less dangerous than a deliberate lie, and we apologists will be “judged with greater strictness” for any false teachings that we spread (Jas 3:1).

I use RSV for the Bible passages (including ones that Banzoli cites) unless otherwise indicated. Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English. Occasionally I slightly modify clearly inadequate translations, so that his words will read more smoothly and meaningfully in English. His words will be in blue.

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See the other installments:

See also the related articles:

Seven Replies Re Interceding Saints (vs. Lucas Banzoli) [5-25-22]

Answer to Banzoli’s “Challenge” Re Intercession of Saints [9-20-22]

Bible on Praying Straight to God (vs. Lucas Banzoli) [9-21-22]

Reply to Banzoli’s “Analyzing the ‘evidence’ of saints’ intercession” [9-22-22]

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Hebrews 12:22-23 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, [23] and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[H]e was not talking about spirits outside the body literally assembled in a heavenly temple, . . . but simply alluding to the set of all true Christians who have their names actually written in the book of life. (p. 432)

Yes, but that’s neither here nor there. Those in the book of life are saved and will go to heaven. Of course. It doesn’t tell us what the “spirits” in the passage are.

If the purpose was to say that they were already in heaven (which would clash head-on with with what he had said a few verses earlier in 11:13-16 and 39-40), he would not have alluded to the inscription of the saved in the book of life, but to the saved themselves in a heavenly condition outside the body. (p. 432)

Expositor’s Greek Testament comments:

“and to spirits of just men made perfect,” “spirits,” as in 1 Peter 3:19, of those who have departed this life and not yet been clothed with their resurrection body.

Pulpit Commentary adds:

Their “spirits” only are spoken of, because the “perfect consummation and bliss both in body and soul” is still to come.

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon defines pneuma (Strong’s Greek word #4151): “spirits” in this particular passage, as:

b. a human soul that has left the body . . . Hebrews 12:23; 1 Peter 3:19.

Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (one-volume edition, p. 893) states: “In Heb. 12:23 the spirits are the departed.”

W. E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (under “Spirit”) defines pneuma as used in this passage as: “the disembodied . . . man, Luke 24:37, 39; Heb. 12:23; 1 Pet. 4:6).”

I addressed the usage in Luke 24 in my previous installment.

Oh, but I momentarily forgot. This is the Grand Conspiracy of the Bible commentators and Bible lexicons, in cahoots with all of the equally pathetic and misguided the Bible translators: all engaged in a massive cover-up of the “truth” that the Bible denies the existence of immortal souls. Once we understand that, everything comes clearly into focus [heavy sarcasm]. The quickest way to comprehend the “Immortalist Conspiracy” is to realize that everyone is wrong except Lucas Banzoli. He’s the Ultimate Wise Man: putting Solomon to shame. He’s got the secret, “gnostic” knowledge: so deep that even Jesus and Paul didn’t grasp it! Poor fellows . . .

The Jewish apocalyptic book of Enoch contains several similar references to immaterial “spirits” and “souls” (each one divided by a line space is a separate citation):

Raphael, one of the holy angels, who presides over the spirits of men.

Sarakiel, one of the holy angels, who presides over the spirits of the children of men . . .

And I saw the spirits of the sons of men who were dead . . .

At that time therefore I inquired respecting him, and respecting the general judgment, saying, “Why is one separated from another?” He answered, “Three separations have been made between the spirits of the dead, and thus have the spirits of the righteous been separated.”

. . . separating the spirits of men, strengthened the spirits of the righteous in the name of his own righteousness.

I have seen that all goodness, joy, and glory has been prepared for you, and been written down for the spirits of them who die eminently righteous and good.

And now to you, 0 ye holy ones of heaven, the souls of men complain, saying, “Obtain Justice for us with the Most High.” Then they said to their Lord, the King, “Thou art Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings. The throne of thy glory is for ever and ever, and for ever and ever is thy name sanctified and glorified. Thou art blessed and glorified.”

[compare Revelation 6:9-10, 13: “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; [10] they cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?’ ” . . . [13] And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!” ]

And now behold the souls of those who are dead, cry out.

Then Raphael, one of the holy angels who were with me, answered and said, “These are the delightful places where the spirits, the souls of the dead, will be collected; for them were they formed; and here will be collected all the souls of the sons of men.”

Thus has there existed a separation between the souls of those who utter complaints, and of those who watch for their destruction, to slaughter them in the day of sinners. A receptacle of this sort has been formed for the souls of unrighteous men, and of sinners.

Fear not, ye souls of the righteous ; but wait with patient hope for the day of your death in righteousness.

Enoch 1:9 is directly quoted in Jude 1:14-15:

It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, [15] to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Note that the information is referred to in inspired revelation as having been “prophesied.” Some think that 1 Peter 3:19–20 and  2 Peter 2:4–5 also make reference to some Enochian material. In Hebrews 11:5, Enoch is referred to directly, as receiving “testimony”: which may allude to the book by his name.

[T]he “spirit” mentioned in all these verses . . . only appears in relation to live people, never dead people. . . . When the word “spirit” is used in relation to human beings, it is always and invariably in relation to people still alive, since the spirit is not a personal being that carries consciousness and personality with it after the death of the individual. (p. 433)

Nonsense. In Hebrews 12:22-23 (at the top) it’s referring to the spirits of dead people, since it refers to “the spirits of just men made perfect.” This perfection suggests that it is in reference to immaterial spirits or souls in heaven (which of course, the passage is set in), who have been made totally perfect, to which Paul refers elsewhere:

1 Corinthians 13:9-12 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; [10] but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. [11] When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. [12] For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

Jesus was also a spirit after He was killed on the cross, and went to preach to other spirits in Hades (He was dead and so were they). I dealt with this last time, too. All of these biblical and linguistic arguments are devastating, if not fatal, to the heretical soul sleep position.

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation Information. Thanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Photo credit: Saint Michael the Archangel and Another Figure Recommending a Soul to the Virgin and Child in Heaven, by Bartolomeo Biscaino (1629-1657) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

Summary: Part 15 of many responses to Lucas Banzoli’s 1900-page book, The Legend of the Immortality of the Soul: published on 1 August 2022. I defend historic Christianity.

14. Jesus’ Visit (After He Died) to Hades, Preaching to the “Spirits in Prison” and Setting “Captives” Free

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 50th refutation of Banzoli’s writings. From  5-25-22 until 11-12-22 (almost half a year) he didn’t write even one single word in reply. Since then he has counter-responded three times. Why so few and so late? Well, he says it’s because my articles are “without exception poor, superficial and weak . . . only a severely cognitively impaired person would be inclined to take” them “seriously.” He didn’t “waste time reading” 37 of my first 40 replies (three articles being his proof of the worthlessness of all of my 4,000+ articles and 51 books). He also denied that I had a “job” and claimed that I didn’t “work.” But he concluded that replying to me is so “entertaining” that he resolved to “make a point of rebutting” my articles “one by one.” I disposed of his relentlessly false personal insults in Facebook posts dated 11-13-22 and 11-15-22 and 11-23-22.

My current effort is a major multi-part response to Banzoli’s 1900-page self-published book, The Legend of the Immortality of the Soul [A Lenda da Imortalidade da Alma], published on 1 August 2022.  He claims to have “cover[ed] in depth all the immortalist arguments” and to have “present[ed] all the biblical proofs of the death of the soul . . .” and he confidently asserted: “the immortality of the soul is at the root of almost all destructive deception and false religion.” He himself admits on page 18 of his Introduction that what he is opposing is held by “nearly all the Christians in the world.” A sincere unbiblical error (and I assume his sincerity) is no less dangerous than a deliberate lie, and we apologists will be “judged with greater strictness” for any false teachings that we spread (Jas 3:1).

I use RSV for the Bible passages (including ones that Banzoli cites) unless otherwise indicated. Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English. Occasionally I slightly modify clearly inadequate translations, so that his words will read more smoothly and meaningfully in English. His words will be in blue.

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See the other installments:

See also the related articles:

Seven Replies Re Interceding Saints (vs. Lucas Banzoli) [5-25-22]

Answer to Banzoli’s “Challenge” Re Intercession of Saints [9-20-22]

Bible on Praying Straight to God (vs. Lucas Banzoli) [9-21-22]

Reply to Banzoli’s “Analyzing the ‘evidence’ of saints’ intercession” [9-22-22]

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Ephesians 4:8-10 Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” [9] (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; [19] in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, [20] who formerly did not obey,

The argument is that, between his death and resurrection, Jesus’ soul left his body and went to hell to preach to other human souls outside the body, who agonized among the flames. (p. 387)

What is being referred to in these passages is Hades, or Sheol, not hell. The word “hell” in the past had a wider meaning, encompassing Sheol/Hades as well. Jesus couldn’t have “ascended on high” with “captives” from the actual hell of everlasting punishment, because that sentence of damnation is irrevocable. Anyone who is in hell can never escape it. Therefore, this place of the afterlife must have been in Hades, since souls could leave it.

There are many problems with this interpretation. First, despite popular belief, nowhere in the text does it tell us that Jesus did this in between his death and resurrection. On the contrary, the context indicates that this occurred only after the resurrection’ by describing a sequence of events, where preaching follows death and resurrection. He was (1) killed in the body, (2) quickened in the Spirit, and (3) preached to the spirits in prison. First he died, then he was made alive (a term that alludes to the resurrection – cf. 1 Co 15:22), and only afterwards preached to the spirits in prison. Therefore, preaching does not occurred before the resurrection, but after it. (pp. 387-388)

“Made alive in the spirit” is what it states: in the “spirit”: which is not yet resurrection. Then the next verse states: “in which he went . . ” This refers to being “in the spirit” from the previous verse.  In other words, He preached as a spirit in Hades. A. T. Robertson, in his Word Pictures in the New Testament, comments on 1 Peter 3:18 as follows:

But quickened in the spirit ( ζωοποιηθεις δε πνευματ ). First aorist passive participle of  ζωοποιεω rare (Aristotle) verb (from  ζωοποιος making alive), to make alive. The participles are not antecedent to  απεθανεν, but simultaneous with it. There is no such construction as the participle of subsequent action. The spirit of Christ did not die when his flesh did, but “was endued with new and greater powers of life” (Thayer).

Likewise, Marvin Vincent, in his Word Studies in the New Testament commented on the passage:

. . . without the article, in spirit; . . . referring to his spiritual, incorporeal life. The words connect themselves with the death-cry on the cross: “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.” . . .

19. . . . Went and preached (poreuqeiv ekhruxen). The word went, employed as usual of a personal act; and preached, in its ordinary New-Testament sense of proclaiming the Gospel.

To the spirits (pneumasin). As in Heb. xii. 23, of disembodied spirits, though the word yucai, souls, is used elsewhere (Apoc. vi. 9; xx. 4).

The meaning is quite clear: Jesus was a disembodied, immaterial spirit (not yet resurrected) at the time He preached to other disembodied, immaterial  spirits. This proves that it was from the time in-between His death (since He is not in His body) — “put to death in the flesh” — and His resurrection, when He will again be in His body, but a glorified one. Commentaries elaborate upon this straightforward interpretation:

Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers:

[W]e cannot translate it “quickened by the Spirit.” It is literally, killed indeed in flesh, but quickened in spirit. Now, how can “quickened in spirit” be a description of the Resurrection? It cannot be answered . . . that the “spirit” here means the resurrection body; for though that is indeed a spiritual body, yet it is playing fast and loose with words to identify “spirit” and “spiritual body.” If the resurrection body be only spirit, where is the resurrection? Neither would the antithesis be correct between “flesh” and “spirit,” if by “spirit” is meant the new form of body given at the Resurrection. Or, again, taking “spirit” in its true sense of the inward incorporeal self, could the Resurrection be described as a quickening of it? True, the spirit itself will gain in some way by its re-incorporation (2Corinthians 5:4); but as the spirit has been alive all along, but the flesh has been dead, the contrast would be very forced to express death and resurrection by “killed in flesh, but quickened in spirit,” instead of saying rather “killed in flesh, but soon quickened in the same.”

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:

quickened by the Spirit—The oldest manuscripts omit the Greek article. Translate with the preposition “in,” as the antithesis to the previous “in the flesh” requires, “IN spirit,” that is, in respect to His Spirit. “Put to death” in the former mode of life; “quickened” in the other. Not that His Spirit ever died and was quickened, or made alive again, but whereas He had lived after the manner of mortal men in the flesh, He began to live a spiritual “resurrection” (1Pe 3:21) life, whereby He has the power to bring us to God. Two ways of explaining 1Pe 3:18, 19, are open to us: (1) “Quickened in Spirit,” that is, immediately on His release from the “flesh,” the energy of His undying spirit-life was “quickened” by God the Father, into new modes of action, namely, “in the Spirit He went down (as subsequently He went up to heaven, 1Pe 3:22, the same Greek verb) and heralded [not salvation, as Alford, contrary to Scripture, which everywhere represents man’s state, whether saved or lost, after death irreversible. Nor is any mention made of the conversion of the spirits in prison. See on 1Pe 3:20. Nor is the phrase here ‘preached the Gospel’ (evangelizo), but ‘heralded’ (ekeruxe) or ‘preached’; but simply made the announcement of His finished work;

Bengel’s Gnomen:

Christ having life in Himself [Jn 1:4; 5:26], and being Himself the life [Jn 11:25; 14:6], neither ceased, nor a second time began, to live in spirit: but no sooner had He by the process of death been released from the infirmity which encompassed Him in the flesh, than immediately (as illustrious divines acknowledge) the energy of His imperishable life began to exert itself in new and most prompt modes of action. . . . This quickening, and in connection with it His going and preaching to the spirits, was of necessity quickly followed by the raising of His body from the dead, and His resurrection from the tomb, 1 Peter 3:21.

Pulpit Commentary

[B]y πνεῦμα in this verse we are to understand, not God the Holy Ghost, but the holy human spirit of Christ. In his flesh he was put to death, but in his spirit he was quickened. When the Lord had said, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit;” when he bowed his head, and gave up the spirit; – then that spirit passed into a new life. . . . Christ, being delivered from the burden of that suffering flesh which he had graciously taken for our salvation, was quickened in his holy human spirit – quickened to new energies, new and blessed activities.

If the intention were to say that Jesus did this between his death and resurrection, Peter would have said that he was (1) killed in the body, then (2) preached to the spirits in prison, and then was (3) quickened in the Spirit. (p. 388)

No; because Banzoli doesn’t understand that “made alive in the spirit” is not necessarily resurrection. Therefore, all of this can indeed be thought to have taken place before Jesus’ resurrection. Banzoli, of course, can’t believe that, because he holds to the ridiculous, heretical, and blasphemous notion that Jesus ceased existing when He was killed, and would not exist again until He was resurrected: which raises the immediate question of how He could raise Himself (Jn 2 and 10) if He didn’t exist when He did it? Banzoli can’t simply look at the text as it is and accept it, because he is forced to eisegete it, due to being in sad bondage to his false theology, through which he interprets the text.

Nor would it make sense that the “enlivened in the Spirit” were the soul outside the body, since the “Spirit” here refers to the person of the Holy Spirit, not the spirit human of Jesus. The idea conveyed by the text is that Jesus was resurrected by the Holy Spirit, something reinforced in Rom 8:11, and in this way he could preach to the spirits in prison. (p. 388)

Jesus was raised by the Holy Spirit (this is true). He was also raised by God the Father. And He raised Himself:

John 2:19-21 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” [20] The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” [21] But he spoke of the temple of his body.

John 10:17-18 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. [18] No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father.

Preaching assumes that these spirits were not in torments, but merely reserved somewhere where they awaited judgment. And this also opposes the traditional notion of hell, where souls would be in eternal and uninterrupted torment. (p. 390)

I guess that’s why no one thinks this is the hell of everlasting torment (nice straw man there, Lucas: your 2,876th such straw man). They believe it is referring to Sheol/Hades. Who says that someone can’t be preached to because they are in torments? It’s simply yet another Banzoli unproven assumption. Ephesians 4:8 informs us that Jesus “led a host of captives” out of this place. Therefore, it can’t be hell, where no one ever escapes. Duh! This ain’t rocket science, folks.

[Another] problem with the immortalist argument is that it fails to explain the strange reason why Jesus would have gone to preach specifically to those “from the days of Noah”. If Jesus really went to hell to preach to the souls there, we should assume that all the other billions of souls who would be dying there and who were not of Noah’s time stopped their ears? Or else that Jesus reserved these souls and set them apart to preach specifically to them? and why would he do that? If the idea was to announce the victory of Christ over the forces of evil, as some immortalists say, this announcement would not be equally important for all souls? Immortalists are simply unable to answer these questions. (p. 390)

This is yet another of the innumerable instances where Banzoli is thoroughly unacquainted with simple logic. The text tells us that He preached to these people. It doesn’t state that they were the only ones He preached to, or that He preached to no others. So this foolish “gotcha!” query is an irrelevancy.

[A] good exegesis of the text is one that . . . assumes that the preaching was not done in Hades, where the human souls would be, but in another place called “prison”; (p. 290)

Oh, now one thing cannot possibly be called two different names in Scripture? I’ll have to remember that one.

[T]he Bible never calls one dead a “spirit”, . . . (p. 415)

Whenever the Bible uses the term “spirit” in relation to human beings, it is referring to living persons . . . (p. 416)

Sure it does:

Luke 24:36-39 As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them. [37] But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. [38] And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? [39] See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible:

He told them to handle him and see him. He ate before them. All this was to satisfy them that he was not, as they supposed, a spirit. Nor could better evidence have been given. He appealed to their senses, and performed acts which a disembodied spirit could not do. . . .

For a spirit … – He appeals here to what they well knew; and this implies that the spirit may exist separate from the body. That was the view of the apostles, and our Saviour distinctly countenances that belief.

Jesus couldn’t have talked about this entity known as a “spirit” as He did, if such a thing did not and could not exist. In fact, He casually assumes the existence of immaterial spirits, in saying, “a spirit has not flesh and bones.” He would have said (if Banzoli and soul sleep are correct) something like: “for there is no such thing as an immaterial spirit; there are only spirits in a body, as you see I have.”  He knew they thought He was a spirit (because He knew all things), so He clarified that He was not; all the while assuming that immaterial spirits exist in the first place. Otherwise, He couldn’t (logically) and wouldn’t (being a logical thinker and truthteller, since He is “truth”) have responded as He did.

If Jesus was talking about imaginary things, this makes no sense. It would be like He was saying, “the man in the moon isn’t made of green cheese, like you see I am made of.” No one compares themselves to nonexistent things, as if they existed. That being the case, Jesus proved here that spirits (or souls) without bodies exist. Here’s another instance of the Bible referring to spirits of dead human beings:

Hebrews 12:22-23 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, [23] and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

It’s example #8,762 of Banzoli asserting a universal negative and being made a fool of. But Banzoli does address this passage, which will be dealt with in the next installment.

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation Information. Thanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Photo credit: Saint Michael the Archangel and Another Figure Recommending a Soul to the Virgin and Child in Heaven, by Bartolomeo Biscaino (1629-1657) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Part 14 of many responses to Lucas Banzoli’s 1900-page book, The Legend of the Immortality of the Soul: published on 1 August 2022. I defend historic Christianity.