2017-05-19T16:47:32-04:00

OutsiderLoftus
Book by H. P. Lovecraft, 1939 [Flickr / CC BY 2.0 license]

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(9-30-07)

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John Loftus is a former pastor and the webmaster of the Debunking Christianity blog. This reply is at his request. I give him points for originality, if little else. John’s words will be in blue.

* * * * *

John provided a general post that linked to other individual ones (I won’t give all the URL’s; the previous link gives those). In later ones, he merely repeats many of his arguments, so I need not cite everything. I will be meeting the basic arguments head on.

Here’s the short version of my argument. It begins with these four propositions:

1) Religious diversity around the globe is a fact—many religions can be found in distinct geographical locations in the world.

Sure.

2) There are no mutually agreed upon tests to determine which religion is true.

To some extent this is correct; however, at least for the western religions, there are several tests from various fields of study (natural science, archaeology, textual analysis, historiography, philosophical arguments, etc.) that can be brought to bear. Those from these traditions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) hold lots of tenets along those lines in common, and so can compare the relative strength of their religious claims.

Eastern religion is another story, and the presuppositions and conception of God is so different that it is difficult to test or examine rationally by these same standards.

3) Religious apologists all claim they are correct and they reject all other distinctive religious beliefs but their own.

We all believe what we believe (religious or no) and believing one thing precludes believing simultaneously in another that contradicts it. Most religious people will readily admit, however, that many beliefs in other religions are similar or identical to their own. All religions and indeed ethical systems (whether religious or not) have great commonalities. This was a central thesis of C.S. Lewis’s book The Abolition of Man.

4) All religions seek to answer life’s most important questions in a believing communal social environment where the adherent is encouraged to believe and discouraged to doubt.

Sure. This is done in varying degrees of plausibility and rationality, but as a generality it is true.

These four facts form the basis of the argument. Okay so far? I think these facts are undeniable.

#2 is questionable to a significant extent, as argued. #3 must be seriously qualified.

So if you want a deductive argument expressing this inductive argument of mine, here it is:

p -> q:

If 1-4 is true, then it’s probable that people adopt their religion based upon “when and where they were born.”

They often (even more often than not) do do that; no argument there.

p:

1-4.

.: q:

Therefore, it’s probable that people adopt their religion based upon “when and where they were born.”

Based upon 1-4, it’s highly probable religious adherents will not investigate their faith dispassionately.

That’s exactly right. That is a major reason why I do apologetics. Religion needs to be held with a great deal more rationality and self-conscious analysis for the epistemological basis and various types of evidences for one’s own belief.

They will use reason to solidify and support religious beliefs arrived at prior to rationally examining them. And because there isn’t a mutually agreed upon scientific test to determine the truth of any religion, therefore social/political and geographical factors heavily influence what religion one adopts.

Again, this is undeniably true (except for the “testing” part). Of course it proves nothing whatsoever about the strength of relative truth claims, so I don’t see that it has much value except as a rather self-evident bit of sociological observation.

This conclusion is the strongest in those communally shared religions where doubt places the adherent in danger of hell, as well as the fear of losing the friendship of the religious community he or she is involved in.

Or places folks in danger of their lives if they dare dissent (or at least losing many freedoms, and their personal reputation), as in many Muslim countries, or Communist nations.

This conclusion leads to the presumption of skepticism when investigating any religious faith, including one’s own religious faith; for it’s probable that the adherents merely adopted their faith based upon “when and where they were born.”

I believe everyone should study to know why they believe what they believe. On the other hand, I deny that there is no religious knowledge or evidence other than these hard proofs from scientific inquiry. There are also highly complex internal or instinctive or subjective or experiential factors that have been analyzed at great length by philosophers like William Alston (see Alvin Plantinga (“properly basic belief”). Those are huge discussions, but not to be dismissed as irrelevant to the present line of inquiry.

John Loftus, in a second post, presents a typically presuppositionalist, Van Til-like excerpt from Paul Manata (who frequents Steve Hays’ Triablogue site). But before looking at how he disagrees with it, it should be known that most non-Calvinist Christians also disagree with this outlook concerning the relationship of faith and reason, and unbelievers and believers. In other ways, there is common ground with what is called “evidentialist” apologetics (my preferred brand). Alvin Plantinga shows one way of achieving a semi-synthesis.

I’ve written papers specifically denying (based on the biblical data) that atheists must be evil and immoral, and affirming that any individual atheist can possibly be saved in the end. I’ve also strongly denied the notion that any atheist who says he was a former Christian must be lying, since it is considered impossible. That is biblical hogwash.

Does this description of the thinking of an unbeliever confirm or deny what I have been saying, that Christianity must devaluate philosophy in favor of believing in historical knowledge of a “special revelation” in the Bible?

It confirms it but only in a very limited way, since this presents the viewpoint of only a small minority of Christians: strict Calvinists (mostly fundamentalists). Not even all Calvinists would take this strict of a view. Loftus makes a mistake very common in the atheist / agnostic / skeptical literature: confusing just one small sector of Christianity with the whole. It’s essentially a straw man because it is even less than a “half-truth” if we go by numbers of (thinking, informed) Christians proportion-wise who think like this.

And if a Christian must place reason below his faith, then how can he properly evaluate his faith in the first place, since the presumption of faith we start out with, will most likely be the presumption of faith we end with?

A Christian doesn’t have to. The Bible doesn’t teach this in the first place. The largest and most continuous Christian tradition (Catholicism) would flatly deny it. So do the majority of Protestants and Protestant apologists.

Since the presumption of faith we start out with is something we accept by, what John Hick calls, the “accidents of history” (i.e., where and when we are born), how likely is it that the Christian will ever truly evaluate his or her faith?

Many (and probably most) Christians never do that; I agree. Again, there is a reason why I have devoted myself to apologetics. If even an atheist thinks Christians should reason more about their faith, then it is obvious that the work of apologetics is crucial.

I would say, though, that there is a version of this “become whatever your surroundings dictate” argument that can be turned around as a critique of atheism. Many atheists — though usually not born in that worldview — nevertheless have decided to immerse themselves in atheist / skeptical literature and surround themselves with others of like mind. And so they become confirmed in their beliefs. We are what we eat. In other words, one can voluntarily decide to shut off other modes and ways of thinking in order to “convince” themselves of a particular viewpoint. That is almost the same mentality as adopting a religion simply because “everyone else” in a culture does so, or because of an accident of birth. People can create an “accident of one-way reading” too.

My position, in contrast, is for people to read the best advocates of any given debate and see them interact with each other. That’s why I do so many dialogues. John Loftus could write these papers, and they may seem to be wonderfully plausible, until someone like me comes around to point out the fallacies in them and to challenge some of the alleged facts. Read both sides. Exercise your critical faculties. Don’t just read only Christians or only atheists. Look for debates where both sides know their stuff and have the confidence to defend themselves and the courage and honesty to change their opinions if they have been shown that truth and fact demand it.

How is it possible to rationally evaluate the Christian faith when the Christian can only do so from within the presuppositions of that faith in the first place–presuppositions which he or she basically accepted by the “accidents of history.”

This is basically what the presuppositionalists do, but that is rejected by the majority of Christian thinkers today and throughout history. John’s critique applies only to them and to fideists and pietists who deliberately underemphasize or reject reason. it certainly does not apply to all of Christianity. The irony is that he makes a critique of something where I as a Christian and an apologist can largely agree with him. We disagree mainly on whether the critique affects Christianity as a whole or only one small — mistaken — school within it.

So let me propose something I call The Outsider Test: If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would be a Muslim right now, say it isn’t so? That is a cold hard fact. Dare you deny it? Since this is so, or at least 99% so, then the proper method to evaluate your religious beliefs is with a healthy measure of skepticism.

Yes, it’s true. Most people believe in religious matters what they were born into. But of course, many change their minds later on. And we must also take into account variations within religions. In my case, for example, one could say “sure, you’re a Christian because most Americans claim to be so.” True enough on one level, but it is false insofar as it would presuppose that I am a Christian only because of this factor and no others.

In fact, I have made up my mind as an individual and often changed my opinions. I was born into a liberal Methodist family. I never resonated with that much, and stopped going to the Methodist church when I was ten. I then became a “secularist” or “practical atheist” for about eight years. That went against my background because both parents and all four grandparents were Methodists. I then converted to evangelical Christianity at age 18. There wasn’t much of that in my larger family, either. And at length I converted to Catholicism at age 32. There were virtually no Catholics in my extended family. So I was making decisions on my own regardless of what folks around me believed (particularly in my Catholic conversion). Therefore, this whole analysis doesn’t really apply to me, if we examine it closely and take it a step deeper and out of the broadest generalities.

Test your beliefs as if you were an outsider to the faith you are evaluating. If your faith stands up under muster, then you can have your faith.

That is essentially what I am doing in my numerous posted debates (more than 450 as of this writing; perhaps nearly 500 by now. I stopped counting). I interact with people who don’t agree with me, all the time., And so I am exposed to their premises and worldviews and in a good place to judge if it is superior to my own. Obviously I haven’t been dissuaded of Catholic Christianity yet. And I can demonstrate to anyone why, by directing them to my debates with atheists and Protestants (i.e., anyone non-Catholic).

If not, abandon it, for any God who requires you to believe correctly when we have this extremely strong tendency to believe what we were born into, surely should make the correct faith pass the outsider test. If your faith cannot do this, then the God of your faith is not worthy of being worshipped.

I agree that every Christian should have a reasonable faith, that can withstand rational and skeptical examination. I do this myself and I write so that others can share in the same confidence and blessing that I receive as I do apologetics and interact with other people of different beliefs.

What we believe does not depend entirely on where we are born. It also depends on when we were born, and what beliefs and conditions were there when we grew up. What would you believe if you were born during the Middle Ages, or during the Ancient superstitious days before the rise of modern science, Frontier days in America, pre-civil war days in the South, and even pre-depression era days, WWII days, Vietnam protest days, the greed decade of the 80’s, and the microchip and cell phone revolution now? Is human reason that malleable? I think so.

None of this means there isn’t any truth, moral or otherwise. But this is known as the Dependency Thesis, whereby what we believe depends upon these factors world-wide. Yep, that’s right, world-wide. And while it doesn’t prove anything about truth itself, it should give us all pause to consider the factors of where and when we were born, and whether or not we properly are evaluating our faith.

All true, again. And I agree that “it doesn’t prove anything about truth itself”. I have long accepted the sociological basis of much actual belief, on account of my reading of social analysts such as Thomas Kuhn (The Structure of Scientific Revolutions) and Michael Polanyi. See also psychiatrist Paul Vitz’s analysis of the familial background of many famous atheist figures. This also is a result of my degree in sociology and minor in psychology.

There are so very many things we believe because of when and where we were born that an argument is made by moral relativists based on it, which is known to ethicists as the “Dependency Thesis (DT)” According to the DT our morals are causally dependent on our cultural context. Even if the relativists are wrong in the very end, they make an extremely powerful case which should give the over-confident Christian a reason for a very long pause, if nothing else.

I don’t see why. Every person is responsible for his own intellectual advancement. The trouble is that public education is so rotten today that young minds aren’t formulated in ways that would further this end. They are spoon-fed secularist propaganda bleached of any Christian influence whatsoever, and then given a massive sophisticated dose of anti-Christianity in college (so that many students lose their faith because they are so overwhelmed and unprepared), as if this were a fair, intelligent way of going about things. They are what they eat too.

That’s why secularists are so intent on removing any vestige of Christianity from education, because they prevail only by people being ignorant of alternatives and being presented one side only. I was a thoroughly secularist pro-choice, pro-feminist, political and sexual liberal coming out of high school. I would have repeated the party line impeccably (in marvelously blissful ignorance). But when I started reading some materials with a different perspective during my college years and shortly afterwards (Christian, politically conservative, pro-life), then my opinions changed because I had a rational basis to compare one view with another, rather than ape propagandistic slogans learned by rote repetition (which is much of liberal, secularist education these days).

The Christian believes God is a rational God and that we should love God with all of their minds. The Christian is not afraid to examine his or her beliefs by the test of reason because he or she believes in a God of reason. A small minority of Christians even believe Logic and reason presuppose the Christian God.

So what’s the problem here? Why aren’t Christians posting by the droves and saying, “Fine, I have no problem with The Outsider Test?” Why not?

Because they are insufficiently acquainted with historic Christianity, biblical Christianity, and historic apologetics. They are fair game to eventually lose their faith, or else possess such a weak, mangled, ineffective faith that they make no practical difference to anyone around them, as potential “witnesses” of the truth of Christianity.

An outsider would be someone who was only interested in which religious or nonreligious view is correct, and assumed from the start that none of them were true–none of them!

But there are no absolutely clean slates. This is where I would disagree, based on the analyses of people like Plantinga, Alston, and Polanyi (the latter almost singlehandedly dismantled logical positivism).

An outsider is a mere seeker who has no prior presuppositions about any faith, or no faith at all. To be an outsider would also mean we would have nothing at stake in the outcome of our investigations, and hence no fear of hell while investigating it all. These threats could hinder a clear-headed investigation.

I deny the premise, and so am skeptical of this scenario; however, I do believe in being as objective and fair as we possibly can be, even given our inevitable biases and belief-system that cannot be erased merely by playing the game of philosophy and supposed extreme, dispassionate detachment.

What exactly is wrong with this? While I know it may be impossible to do, since we all have presuppositions, what’s wrong with striving for this as a goal that can only be approximated?

I agree, if qualified like this. Good.

If Christianity wins hands down in the marketplace of ideas, like so many seem to indicate, then why not mentally adopt this test? Christians shouldn’t have any problems doing this, right?

Amen! I try to do it by my debates, such as the present one. I think Christianity wins in any such encounter. It’s always been my experience.

The outsider test would mean that there would be no more quoting the Bible to defend how Jesus’ death on the cross saves us from sins. The Christian must now try to rationally explain it. No more quoting the Bible to defend how it’s possible for Jesus to be 100% God and 100% man with nothing left over, by merely quoting from the Bible. The Christian must now try to make sense of this claim, coming as it does from an ancient superstitious people who didn’t have trouble believing this could happen (Acts 14:11, 28:6), etc, etc. Why? Because you cannot start out by first believing the Bible, nor can you trust the people closest to you who are Christians to know the truth. You would want evidence and reasons for these things. And you’d initially be skeptical of believing in any of the miracles in the Bible just as you would be skeptical of any claims of the miraculous in today’s world.

This is a description of apologetics, pure and simple. Thanks for confirming the value of what I have devoted my life to.

. . . we would do well to question the social conditions of how we came to adopt a particular religious belief in the first place, that is, who or what influenced us, and what were the actual reasons for adopting that belief in its earliest stages.

I agree wholeheartedly.

If you’ve read my Conversion/deconversion story, I had no initial reasons for adopting the Christian faith, except that everyone I had ever met believed. The reason I adopted it in the first place was because of social conditions–no one I knew doubted it and I concluded at the age of 18 that therefore it must be true.

My story was precisely the opposite. I was so utterly ignorant of Christian theology at age 18 that I didn’t even know that Christians believed Jesus was God in the flesh. I arrived at all my Christian beliefs by my own deliberate study. I had gotten secularism crammed down my throat in Detroit public schools and Wayne State University in Detroit. I had to “even the score” a bit by my own study of the theistic intellectual tradition. That was a bit tough to do in a fair way, given, for example, that there wasn’t a single theist in the philosophy department at Wayne when I was there and took five courses or so.

. . . . there are no empirical tests to finally decide between religious viewpoints.

This is simply not true. There are a number of evidential or empirical tests that Christianity and other religions can be subjected to. The argument from biblical prophecy offers a chance to test by real, concrete historical events whether the predictions were accurate or not. A study of Jesus’ Resurrection, that involved a dead body and a rock tomb guarded by Roman soldiers, provides hard facts that have to be dealt with and explained somehow. The cosmological and teleological theistic arguments offer hard scientific facts and details that are rationally explained as suggesting a God. All miraculous claims can be examined.

In the Catholic tradition, there are many eyewitness accounts of people being raised from the dead (St. Augustine, for example, attested to this). There are all sorts of miracles. For example: the incorrupt bodies of saints. If you can take a dead person out of their grave twenty, fifty years or more after their death, and the body has not decayed, and it is because they were a saintly person, then that is hard empirical evidence that confirms Christian, Catholic teaching. You have the mystery of the stigmata, that could be seen in, e.g., St. Padre Pio, who died in 1968. There is archaeological evidence confirming the claims of the Bible. Etc., etc.

Skeptics thumb their nose at all of this but it is not nearly so simple. There are unexplained phenomena here that have to be accounted for. We have our interpretation, but the atheist puts his head in the sand and claims that it’s all impossible because of their prior axiomatic beliefs that all miracles are impossible because they “go against science ” (itself a blatant fallacy). Hence John writes“Christians believe God did miracles in the ancient past (but we see no evidence he does so today, which is our only sure test for whether or not they happened in the past).” And that is considered “open-minded” and intelligent.

A believer in one specific religion has already rejected all other religions, so when he rejects the one he was brought up with he becomes an agnostic or atheist many times, like me.

We need not reject all other religions in toto; just aspects of them that we believe to be untrue. For example, Confucius taught excellent personal ethics. A Christian would disagree with very little there. We have no objection to Jews following the 613 commandments of Mosaic Law or keeping kosher. Buddhists are often pro-life, and teach about personal asceticism something not unlike Catholic monasticism. Muslims still have kids, are against abortion and premarital sex and pornography. All great stuff.

You quoted Paul, for instance. Why should I believe what an ancient superstitious person believed and said?

Here is the classic atheist condescension and double standard. We’re supposed to sit like eager baby birds receiving regurgitated worms from their mother’s beak, in hearing atheists lecture us about the Bible and how stupid and contradictory it is, and how dumb our interpretations are. John cited the Bible and beliefs stated in the Bible all over his main post. But the Christian is not allowed to cite the Bible in his replies (???!!!).

Thus John waxes indignantly: “Deal with the argument. The Bible means nothing to me.” Well, how the hell is a Christian gonna be able to respond to an argument of biblical skepticism and alleged contradictions by not citing the very Bible that was critiqued? It’s irrelevant whether John accepts it or not or puts it on the level of Mein Kampf or Aesop’s Fables. It’s our view that is being critiqued and so we have the task of defending the Bible. And in order to do that one must cite it! Good grief . . .

The condescension towards the Apostle Paul, who was one of the most educated and philosophically nuanced men in the ancient world, and a brilliant writer is, of course, completely out of line and ridiculous; a quintessential example of atheist chronological snobbery.

For the outsider test to fail the test of the Bible you must first establish the trustworthiness of the Bible to tell us the truth. I’m proposing a test to see if the Bible should be trusted in the first place. How do YOU propose we test it? Could you please explain to me why you might use double-standards when testing it against other religious books?

That’s super-easy: we test it like any other source of history: through historiographical scholarship and archaeology. The Bible has been tested again and again in this fashion and has proven itself accurate, insofar as it reports historical, geographical, biographical details, etc.

Wholly apart from religious faith, then, we can establish that it is a remarkably accurate document that can be trusted to accurately report things. That’s the bare minimum. Once supernatural events are being discussed, the argument must be made on an entirely different plane: legal-historical evidences, philosophy, etc. But the Bible is not untrustworthy on the basis of inaccuracy of things that can be empirically verified.

That’s enough for now. If John wants to engage in further dialogue, minus the acrimony that has plagued our previous several attempts, I’d be happy to. Many areas here can be unpacked and elaborated upon in great depth.

[Loftus has never replied, these past almost eight years]

2017-05-20T14:53:52-04:00

QuixoteWindmills

Cervantes’ Don Quixote tilting at windmills [Flickr / CC BY-SA 2.0 license]

I’ve often said that the atheist or otherwise relentlessly skeptical person who wars against the Bible, approaches Holy Scripture like a butcher approaches a hog. They’ll never understand it by means of such a ludicrous and hostile method. There can be legitimate questions, on a certain level, and sincerely inquiring people, of course, but in the final analysis, skepticism as a sort of overriding “spirit” is nonsense from where I sit. The apologist quickly learns to discern when someone is sincerely troubled by a passage or idea in the Bible, and when one is merely playing; enjoying the tweaking of Christians and making them look as silly as possible, in order to dismiss Christianity itself.

This sort of atheist or Bible skeptic loves to gleefully suggest supposed contradictions in the Bible, so he can feel all the more comfortable and comfy-cozy in his atheist / skeptical “skin.” He can confidently, triumphantly face each new day with his head held high, “knowing” that he has “refuted” those ignorant, lying, intellectually dishonest Christian apologists once again. He correctly understands the Bible; we Christians don’t, because (so he tells us) we are blinded by our belief in inspired written revelation.

Everyone has their natural biases of party affiliation; sure. I’ve always acknowledged that. But there is bias, and there is BIAS (if you know what I mean). These folks truly see what they want to see. When it comes to butchering individual Bible passages, we Christians refer to that with the 50-cent word eisegesis, which means literally “reading into the text [what is not there].”

We can be assured that when these types set out to “interpret” the Bible the result always comes out the same: the Bible is untrustworthy and self-contradictory. It’s made up. It’s not what it purports to be: not even on the level of historical analysis and verification (wholly apart from the question of error-free inspiration).

Now, it is true, on the other hand, that when Christians (like myself), who believe in biblical inspiration and infallibility, interpret the Bible, it “comes out” harmonious and self-consistent. Very true. We have a bias “fer,” and the atheist has a bias “agin” the Bible. That’s a given. All we can do in the final analysis is apply the logic and common sense that both sides presumably have (or should have) in common, and let the reader determine which individual interpretation is more plausible and reasonable to hold.

The problem, bottom-line, with this sort of skepticism, however, is that an apologist like myself could possibly “solve” one or two or three proposed “difficulties” or “contradictions” to the skeptic’s satisfaction, but they will simply come up with ten more. I learned this many years ago (I’ve been doing apologetics now for 34 years) It never ends. The problem is at the presuppositional level, causing one to be forever skeptical.

The apologist can’t solve that problem, but in any event, we have to decide how many hundreds of hours to spend answering garden variety objections till Kingdom Come, or to draw the line somewhere, realizing that we can never argue someone into Christianity by answering 952 objections to this or that in the Bible and/or Church. That ain’t the way that people of this sort are persuaded.

What atheists and biblical skeptics overlook is that one already has to have an interpretive grid or framework in place in order to interpret the evidence in the first place. There is no such thing as a clean slate. To deny that prior interpretation is required in order to weigh the evidence and have some method of determining what is compelling evidence, is epistemologically naive.

These folks have no intention whatsoever of affording the biblical documents even minimal respect. It’s pure skepticism. They disrespect it as their starting presupposition and therefore they keep “finding” out information that causes them to hate it all the more.

Yet we constantly hear from them a bunch of hooey, that they are approaching it with total objectivity and fairness, that just so happens in each and every case to cause them to conclude (surprise!) it is untrustworthy and contradictory. They find what they want to find (special pleading) because their  mind is already made up before you begin any particular “study.”

We should always ask these skeptics when there was ever a time when they set out to show that the Bible was contradictory, but then discovered that [in a particular case] it wasn’t, and that the Christian argument was more plausible. But just one would not prove  fair-mindedness. Several such instances might indicate open-mindedness and the absence of an “anti-Bible” agenda. But if the conclusions are never other than what we expect from the Bible skeptic (biblical contradiction) then they shouldn’t expect us Christians to stop questioning their hostile premises and a hostile overall agenda. It’s perfectly reasonable and plausible for us to conclude what we do, from the “evidence” of  relentlessly skeptical conclusions.

In terms merely of literary study or research, clearly the person who loves and respects a document (whether it is a religious document or not) is in a much better place to accurately interpret and understand it (despite quite possible mistakes arising from too much favorable bias) than the one who hates the same document for some reason: thinks that it fosters immorality, is a bunch of fairy tales, is the result of cynical after-the-fact tampering, contains moral and logical and theological ludicrosities, presents a false metaphysic, etc.

I don’t see how that is even arguable. But the skeptic and/or atheist has to fight against it in order to maintain this farcical facade of supposed neutrality, extraordinary open-mindedness and superior intelligence and logical acumen, that most agnostics and atheists seem to assume is true of themselves as a matter of course, over against us (as the caricature would have it) evidence- and reason-fearing, gullible Christians.

It’s part of the hostile brand of atheist’s (or “anti-theist’s”) persona and self-perception: “we are the open-minded, smart ones. We go where evidence leads; those Christians don’t do that; they are dogmatic, anti-science, anti-reason, and prone to infantile belief in fairy tales and myths.”

 

2017-05-21T16:54:35-04:00

CalvinTitian

Portrait of Jean Calvin, by Titian (1490-1576) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

[A]lthough the Greek Fathers, above others, and especially Chrysostom, have exceeded due bounds in extolling the powers of the human will, yet all ancient theologians, with the exception of Augustine, are so confused, vacillating, and contradictory on this subject, that no certainty can be obtained from their writings. It is needless, therefore, to be more particular in enumerating every separate opinion.

(Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book II, 2:4)

If you are wondering about how John Calvin viewed the Church fathers, this will give you a good idea. We know that Protestants deny that they are authoritative when in substantial agreement (as in our view). That’s part and parcel of their rule of faith: sola Scriptura. But Calvin and Luther do often claim to have respect for the ancient Church. Well, when it agrees with them, they do. When it doesn’t, they don’t (as in this example). They make themselves the arbiters and “super-Popes” every time.

Of course, it would help Calvin immensely if he understood development of doctrine. Oftentimes, the fathers (earlier ones much more so) express a relatively “primitive” understanding of some complicated point of theology. We would fully expect this. But if one doesn’t understand that all doctrines develop through history and are better understood as time goes on, one can be quite judgmental of the fathers and regard them as heretics, when they were not.

We see that lack of understanding here. Free will, as related to original sin and God’s grace is one of the most difficult issues in all of theology.

Calvin later rationalizes his “patristic hostility” a bit:


 It may, perhaps, seem that I have greatly prejudiced my own view by confessing that all the ecclesiastical writers, with the exception of Augustine, have spoken so ambiguously or inconsisten
tly on this subject, that no certainty is attainable from their writings. Some will interpret this to mean, that I wish to deprive them of their right of suffrage, because they are opposed to me. Truly, however, I have had no other end in view than to consult, simply and in good faith, for the advantage of pious minds, which, if they trust to those writers for their opinion, will always fluctuate in uncertainty. At one time they teach, that man having been deprived of the power of free will must flee to grace alone; at another, they equip or seem to equip him in armour of his own.

(Institutes, II, 2:9)

In the same section he essentially refutes his own earlier broad-brush condemnations:


This much, however, I dare affirm, that though they sometimes go too far in extolling free will, the main object which they had in view was to teach man entirely to
 renounce all self-confidence, and place his strength in God alone.


Self-contradiction is indeed found frequently in Calvin’s writing (as it is in all tomes that contain substantial falsehoods).

For more on John Calvin, see my web page devoted to him, and my books, Biblical Catholic Answers for John Calvin and A Biblical Critique of Calvinism. I reply to large portions of his Institutes point-by-point in these books.

2025-07-09T23:35:27-04:00

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Pope Francis, 8-17-14 in South Korea [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license]
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See also my 242 articles: Replies to Critiques of Pope Francis 


I wrote on 9-20-13:

For all of you out there worried about the pope. Relax; chill. All is well. We have a pope who says the unexpected: a lot like Jesus. And, like Jesus, those who don’t get it and are outside looking in, will misunderstand, and those who are in the fold will grasp what is being said, in the context of historic Catholic teaching, if they look closely enough and don’t get hoodwinked by silly media wishful thinking.

Those who are outside often hear only what they want to hear (God loves everyone, even sinners!!!) and not what they need to hear (stop sinning; stop this sin . . .).

I wrote in a letter to a friend:

It’s the same old dumb misunderstandings: media misreports what the pope said; never understand what he means in context, and in context with past teachings. Don’t fall into their trap! Pope Francis is a good Catholic; nothing to be alarmed about at all. The world wants Christians to renounce their teachings. We’re the guys who have never done so. We keep the same moral teaching that the Church had from the beginning: no abortion, no divorce, no contraception, no same-sex “marriages,” etc. Virtually no one else has done so! So the attack is against us to change traditional morality, and we will never do that.

*****

1. Nine things you need to know about Pope Francis’s inaugural Mass (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 3-17-13)

2. Should We Be Concerned About Pope Francis’s Inaugural Mass? (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 3-18-13)


3. Pope Francis on Homosexual Unions (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 3-20-13)


4. Behind the Campaign to Smear the Pope (Mary Anastasia O’Grady, Crisis / The Wall Street Journal, 3-22-13)


5. How Should We Understand Pope Francis Washing Women’s Feet? (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 3-28-13)


6. Pope Francis, Foot-Washing, & Humility (Pete Vere & Dave Armstrong, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 3-13-13 and 3-30-13)


7. Pope Francis and lying to save life  (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 5-15-13)

8. Dreadful Misleading Headline of Catholic Online Pins Heresy on Pope (Brian Kelly, Catholicism.org, 5-23-13)

9. Did Pope Francis Say That Atheists Can Get to Heaven by Good Works? (Jimmy Akin, JimmyAkin.com, 5-24-13)


10. Did Pope Francis poke Protestants in the eye? (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 6-4-13)


11. Seven things you need to know about what Pope Francis said about gays (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 7-29-13) 

12. Pope Francis and the Franciscan Friars (Michelle Arnold, Catholic Answers, 7-30-13)


13. Don’t Tell the Press: Pope Francis Is Using Them (Elizabeth Scalia, First Things, 7-30-13)


14. Franciscans of the Immaculate decree worries traditionalists (Catholic News Agency, 7-30-13)

15. On the Pope’s Remarks about Homosexuality (Scott P. Richert, Crisis, 8-1-13)

16. What Did the Pope Really Say about Gays in the Priesthood?  (Fr. Regis Scanlon, O.F.M. Cap., Crisis, 8-5-13)


17. Pope Francis Will Enliven the Benedict Legacy (Jeffrey Tucker, Crisis, 8-12-13)

18. What should we make of Pope Francis bowing when greeting people?  (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 8-30-13)


19. Is Pope Francis about to eliminate celibacy? (9 things to know and share) (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 9-12-13) 


20. What Pope Francis really said about atheists (Stephen Kokx, Catholic Vote, 9-13-13)


21. Did Pope Francis say atheists don’t need to believe in God to be saved? (9 things to know) (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 9-15-13)


22. Pope Francis Focuses on the Bigger Picture With New Interview (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register,  9-20-13)


23. Pope condemns abortion as product of ‘throwaway culture’ (Francis X. Rocca, Catholic News Service,
9-20-13)

24. Francis Confounds the Associated Press (Elizabeth Scalia, The Anchoress, 9-20-13)

25. Francis and Benedict, Peter and John (Thomas L. McDonald, God and the Machine, 9-20-13)


26. Pope Francis and His Critics  (Scott P. Richert, Crisis, 9-23-13)

27. The Mission of Pope Francis, S. J. (Michelle Arnold, Catholic Answers, 9-23-13)

28. Report: Pope Excommunicates Priest for Supporting Gay Marriage, Female Priest (Dr. Susan Berry, Breitbart, 9-24-13)


29. The Papal Interview: A Survey of Reactions  (Joseph Meaney, Crisis, 9-25-13) 


30. Pope Francis and ‘The Interview’ (Abp. Charles Chaput, CatholicPhilly.com, 9-25-13)


31. Pope Francis: Every Unborn Child Has the Lord’s Face (Andrew M. Greenwell, Esq., Catholic Online, 9-26-13)


32. A Big Heart Open to God: The exclusive [complete] interview with Pope Francis (Antonio Spadaro, S. J., America, 9-30-13)


33. Did Pope Francis just say that evangelization is “nonsense”? 8 things to know and share  (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 10-1-13)


34. Is Pope Francis about to “rip up” the Vatican constitution? 12 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin,  National Catholic Register, 10-2-13)

35. The Pope’s Pro-Life Declaration “in Context”  (Dr. William Oddie, Crisis, 10-3-13)


36. Pope Francis’s new letter to homosexual Catholics (9 things to know and share)  (Jimmy Akin,  National Catholic Register, 10-11-13)

37. Is Pope Francis going to let the divorced and remarried receive Communion?  (Jimmy Akin,  National Catholic Register, 10-22-13)


38. Papal Style: Caring for Souls while Leaving Doctrinal Exposition to Others (Dr. William Oddie , Crisis, 11-19-13)

39. Pope’s words in interview may not have been his own, Scalfari says (Andrea Gagliarducci, Catholic News Agency,  11-21-13)

40. Only Fools RUSH in Where Angels Fear to Tread: Limbaugh Excoriates Pope Francis Unfairly (Fr. John Trigilio, 11-30-13)


41. Would Someone Just Shut That Pope Up? (Patrick J. Deneen, The American Conservative, 12-5-13; mostly about economics)


42. Pope Francis addresses Marxism charges, women cardinals in La Stampa interview (Catherine Harmon, The Catholic World Report, 12-15-13)

43. Pope Francis takes on allegations and rumors about his papacy: 9 things to know and share  (Jimmy Akin,  National Catholic Register, 12-15-13)


44. Pope Benedict Defends Francis on Markets and Ethics (Andrew M. Haines, 12-16-13, Ethika Politika)


45. Pope Francis on the “parable” of the loaves and fishes: 11 things to know and share  (Jimmy Akin,  National Catholic Register, 1-1-14)


46. Don’t fall for this Pope Francis hoax: 5 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin,  National Catholic Register, 1-2-14)


47. What did Pope Francis say about the children of homosexual couples? 8 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin,  National Catholic Register, 1-4-14)

48. Does Francis Really Have a Marxism Problem? (David Byrne, Crisis Magazine, 1-10-14)


49. Did Pope Francis baptize a baby whose parents aren’t married? 12 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 1-12-14)


50. Il Papa’s Not a Rollin’ Stone  (Christopher Manion, Crisis Magazine, 2-3-14)

51. The War on Pope Francis (M. Anthony Mills, Real Clear Religion, 2-3-14) [economics issues]


52. Quotes from Pope Francis [great website that notes the massive distortions and spin taking place about the pope; added on 2-8-14]

53. Judge Not (Tim Staples, Catholic Answers, 2-14-14) [Same-sex couples and homosexuality]


54. Did Pope Francis just diss apologists? 9 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin, 3-10-14)

55. Francis and Traditionalist Catholics (Alberto Carosa, The Catholic World Report,  3-12-14)


56. The Media’s Fictional Francis (John Paul Shimek, The Catholic World Report, 3-13-14)


57. Did Pope Francis tell a divorced and civilly remarried woman she could receive Holy Communion? (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 4-23-14)

58. Vatican responds to Francis’ call to Argentinian woman; more details emerge (Catherine Harmon, The Catholic World Report, 4-24-14)


59. Pope Francis: Zacchaeus and “legitimate redistribution” (Ed Morrissey, Hot Air, 5-9-14)


60. Breaking: Pope Francis is not an anarcho-capitalist (David Freddoso, Conservative Intelligence Briefing, 5-9-14)


61. Totally Missing the Pope Francis Story, Yet Again (Kathryn Jean Lopez , National Review Online, 5-9-14)


62. No scandal here: How the 20 couples married by Pope Francis were legit (Kevin Jones and Ann Schneible, Catholic News Agency, 9-15-14)

63. Sorry, But Media Coverage of Pope Francis is Papal Bull (Elizabeth Dias, Time,  10-29-14)


64. Is Pope Francis Duping Liberals on Marriage? (Paul Kengor, American Spectator, 11-21-14)


65. Pope Francis As Reformer, Evangelizer — And Doctrinal Conservative (National Public Radio; All Things Considered: review of The Great Reformer by Austin Ivereigh, 11-30-14)


66. What Hierarchy Really Means (By Eric Johnston, Crisis Magazine, 12-1-14)


67. The Pope’s True Agenda (William Doino, Jr., First Things, 12-1-14)


68. No, Pope Francis Did Not Call the Koran a “Prophetic Book of Peace” (Thomas L. McDonald, God and the Machine, 12-5-14)


69. Sorry, Fido. Pope Francis did Not say our pets are going to heaven (David Gibson, Religion News Service, 12-12-14)

70. Documentation: Pope Francis is Orthodox, Pro-Tradition and Against Modernism (Dan Marcum, Catholic Answers Forum, 1-9-15)

79. Is the Left’s Honeymoon with Pope Francis Finally Over? (Paul Kengor, Crisis Magazine, 2-17-15)

80. VIP treatment for LGBT group at the Vatican? Not really  (Andrea Gagliarducci, Catholic News Agency / EWTN News, 2-19-15)

 
81. Is Pope Francis’ Papacy a New Front for the Left? (Kate O’Hare, Breitbart, 1-3-14)

82.   The game changer nobody has noticed [Pope Francis’ closing remarks to the Extraordinary Synod of Bishops] (Joe Garcia, Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam, 10-21-14)

83. Here We Go Again or “Lousy English Translations, Pt. CCXVIII” (Joe Garcia, Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam, 11-26-13)


84. Pope Francis: An Agenda Behind his Back? (Andrea Gagliarducci, MondayVatican, 2-23-15)


85. Concerning Recent Reports from the Blogosphere on the State of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate (Fr. Angelo M. Geiger, Mary Victrix, 2-18-15)


86. Pope Francis Defends Human Nature Against Gender Radicals (Anne Hendershott, Crisis Magazine, 2-25-15)


87. Irish Liberals Have Second Thoughts on Pope Francis (John P. McCarthy, The Irish Echo, 2-25-15 / reprinted in Crisis Magazine, 3-2-15)


88. Can a Pope Be a Heretic? (Jacob W. Wood,  Crisis Magazine, 3-4-15)


89. Beware of the two faces of Pope Francis: he ain’t no liberal (Jemima Thackray [a liberal], The Telegraph, 1-22-15)


90. Notre Dame Prof Accuses Pope Francis of Being a Misogynist (Thomas P. Williams, Breitbart, 2-23-15)


91. Signs of Hope: The Benedict Bishop Bump (Thomas Peters, Catholic Vote, 3-4-15)


92. Foundless Francis Fantasies (Adam A. J. DeVille, The Catholic World Report, 3-6-15)


93. Demystifying the Pope Francis Enigma (Msgr. Hans Feichtinger, Crisis Magazine, 3-17-15)


94. Pope Francis ‘refuses’ gay French ambassador  (Henry Samuel, The Telegraph, 4-10-15)

95. Pope Francis: Removal of Differences Between Man and Woman Is the Problem, Not the Solution (Zenit, 4-15-15)


96. Pope Francis: Challenging and Humbling the Faithful (David Mills, Aleteia: Religion, 5-20-15)

97. I Am Not the Pope and Neither Are You (Constance T. Hull, Swimming the Depths, 5-27-15)


98. Did Pope Francis say it doesn’t matter what kind of Christian you are? 9 things to know (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 5-26-15)


99. Pope Francis: “Children have a ‘Right’ to a Mother and Father” (Paul Kengor, Crisis Magazine, 6-8-15)


100. Pope Francis simply doesn’t take sides (Dr. Jeff Mirus, CatholicCulture.org, 6-5-15)

101. Pope Francis and the Just Third Way (Michael D. Greaney, Homiletic & Pastoral Review, 6-13-15)

102. Draft of Environmental Encyclical Leaked! 12 Things to Know and Share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 6-15-15)

103. Pope Francis’s Conservatism of Joy (Aaron Taylor, Ethika Politika, 6-22-15)

104. Fear Not, Faithful Catholics (Paul Kengor, Crisis Magazine, 6-25-15)


105. Pope Francis’s Puzzling Comments on Guns and War: The Clue to Understanding Laudato Si’ (Jennfer Fitz, Sticking the Corners, 6-22-15) 

106. A Prophetic Pope and the Tradition of Catholic Social Teaching (Fr. Robert Barron, Patheos, 7-14-15)

107. Pope Francis on Weapons: 12 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 6-27-15)


108. Pope Francis Against the World (Elizabeth Stoker Bruenig, New Republic, 7-30-15)
*
109. The Pope on Immigration: The Real Story (Tom Trinko, American Thinker, 8-17-15)
*
110. George Will’s Puerile Tantrum over Pope Francis (Paul E. Gottfried, Crisis Magazine, 9-25-15)
*
111. Is Pope Francis Really a Liberal? (Glen A. Sproviero, The Imaginative Conservative, 9-23-15)
 *
112. Pope Francis on Intercommunion with Lutherans (Jimmy Akin, JimmyAkin.com, Nov. 2015)
*
113. The other side of the Francis effect: Hypersensitivity and hysteria? (Jeff Mirus, Catholic Culture,  12-1-15)
*

114. Trump, Clinton, and the Pope (Bill Donohue / Catholic League, 2-18-16)

115. Pope, Trump, and Immigration (Bill Donohue / Catholic League, 2-18-16)

116. Vatican: Pope Francis’ Comments About Donald Trump Not ‘Personal Attack or Instruction on How to Vote’ (Thomas D. Williams, Breitbart, 2-19-16)

117. Pope Francis Speaks on Hot-Button Issues: 9 Things to Know and Share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 2-19-16)

118. Francis, Contraception, and the Zika Virus (Fr. Timothy V. Vaverek, The Catholic Thing, 2-25-16)

119. UK’s Mirror Incompetently Botches Easter Pope Story  (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 3-17-16)

120. Pope Francis’s New Document on Marriage: 12 Things to Know and Share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 4-8-16)

121. Pope Francis Shatters Reformers’ Dreams with ‘Modern Family’ Document (Thomas D. Williams, Breitbart, 4-8-16) 

122. Interpreting Amoris Laetitia ‘through the lens of Catholic tradition’ (Andrea Gagliarducci, Catholic News Agency, 4-8-16)

123. First Thoughts on “Amoris Laetitia” (Bishop Robert Barron, Aleteia, 4-8-16)

124. “True Innovations but Not Ruptures”: Cardinal Christoph Schönborn Presents “Amoris Laetitia” (Diane Montagna, Aleteia, 4-8-16)

125. Pope Affirms Traditional Marriage (Bill Donohue, Newsmax, 4-8-16)

126. Pope Francis’s revolution has been cancelled (Damian Thompson, The Spectator, 4-8-16)

127. Pope Francis on love in the family (Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, CatholicPhilly.com, 4-14-16)

128. Pope Francis is a social conservative (Tim Stanley, The Telegraph, 4-18-16)

129. Amoris Laetitia and the Progressive Pope Myth (Anthony S. Layne, Catholic Stand, 4-23-16)

130. Cardinal Müller: Magisterium on Remarried Divorcees Unchanged by Amoris Laetitia [cites precedent in both Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI] (Edward Pentin, National Catholic Register, 5-4-16)

131. Cardinal Müller: Amoris Laetitia is in line with previous teaching on Communion (Catholic Herald, 5-4-16)

132. The Bitter Sons Speak of Francis (David Mills, Ethika Politica, 11-3-15) 

133. Defend Him Against All Hazards: Newman on the Pope (David Mills, 10-24-14)

134. Pope Francis on Apologizing to Gays (And More): 6 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 6-28-16)

135. Pope Francis Condemned The Reform Of The Reform? Not Quite… (Jeff Ostrowski, Views from the Choir Loft, 2-23-15)

136. Framing the bottom line on opposition to Pope Francis (John L. Allen Jr., Crux, 7-17-16)

137. Pope okays Argentine doc on Communion for divorced and remarried (Inés San Martín, Crux, 9-12-16)

138. What Pope Francis said about Communion for the divorced-and-remarried (Catholic News Agency, 9-13-16)

139. Not heretical: Pope Francis’ approval of the Argentine bishops’ policy on invalid marriages (Dr. Jeff Mirus, Catholic Culture, 9-15-16)

140. How Pope Francis’ ‘new joy’ surprised Benedict XVI (Catholic News Agency, 9-12-16) [“Pope emeritus Benedict XVI has said he is satisfied with the papacy of Pope Francis . . . he sees ‘no breach anywhere’ between his pontificate and that of his successor. ‘New accents yes, but no contradictions,’ . . .”]

141. Pope Francis on “Proselytism” (Jimmy Akin, Catholic Answers blog, 10-21-13)

142. Cardinal Schönborn: Pope Francis follows John Paul II’s teaching on communion (Catholic Herald, 4-8-16)

143. Is Pope Francis a Heretic? (+ Part II) (Tim Staples, Catholic Answers blog, October 3-4, 2016)

144. Amoris Laetitia – An Apologia for its Orthodoxy (Scott Smith, Reduced Culpability, 1-19-17)

145. Vatican’s Muller: No Communion For Divorced, Remarried — Not Even a Pope Can Change This (Michael W. Chapman, CNS News, 2-1-17)

146. Cardinal Müller, German bishops clash on interpretation of Amoris Laetitia (Catholic World News, 2-1-17)

147. Cardinal Müller: Communion for the remarried is against God’s law (Catholic Herald, 2-1-17)

148. Does Amoris Laetitia 303 Really Undermine Catholic Moral Teaching? (Robert Fastiggi & Dawn Eden Goldstein, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 9-26-17)

149. The document against the Pope’s “heresies”: it happened to Wojtyla too (Andrea Tornielli, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 9-27-17)

150. ‘Filial correction’ of pope marked by glaring hypocrisy, risible accusations (Stephen Walford, National Catholic Reporter, 9-28-17)

151. Cardinal Müller Speaks Out on ‘Amoris Laetitia,’ the Dubia and the Vatican [see highlighted passages about desired replies from the pope, and the need for dialogue, on Facebook] (Edward Pentin, National Catholic Register, 9-28-17)

152. Dr. Robert Fastiggi Defends Amoris Laetitia Against Critics (hosted at Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 10-3-17)

153. Defending Pope Francis (Amoris Laetitia) [+ Part Two] (Tim Staples, unknown date)

154. Donum Veritatis illegitimatizes the Filial Correction (Emmet O’Regan, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 10-3-17) 

155. Critics of Amoris laetitia ignore Ratzinger’s rules for faithful theological discourse (Robert Fastiggi & Dawn Eden Goldstein,  La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 10-4-17)

156. “The correctio? The method is incorrect: they do not discuss, they condemn” [Dr. Rocco Buttiglione] (Andrea Tornielli, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 10-5-17)

157. Dr. Fastiggi & Dr. Goldstein Debate Dr. Shaw Regarding Pope Francis (hosted at Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 10-9-17)

158. Dr. Fastiggi Replies to Dr. Brugger Regarding Amoris Laetitia (hosted at Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 10-12-17)

159. Dr. Fastiggi’s “Exchange” with Correctio Signatory Chris Ferrara (hosted at Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 10-12-17)

160. Recent Comments of Pope Francis Should Help to Quiet Papal Critics (Robert Fastiggi, La StampaVatican Insider, 11-28-17)

161. Pastoral Charity is the Key to Pope Francis’s Endorsement of the Buenos Aires Bishops’ Document (Robert Fastiggi, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 11-28-17)

162. No, Pope Francis Is Not Changing the Lord’s Prayer (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 12-11-17)

163. The Heretical Pope Fallacy (Emmet O’Regan, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 11-12-17)

164. “The approach a Pope takes is not what destroys the Church” (Andrés Beltramo Álvarez, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 12-23-17)

165. Vatican “Awards” for Abortion Activists? (Facebook discussion, featuring Paul Hoffer, 1-18-18)

166. Canon Law, Pope Francis, and Airplane Weddings [+ Part Two] (Pete Vere, Facebook, 1-19-18)

167. Pope Francis explains why he celebrated the airborne marriage of two flight attendants [+ Facebook discussion] (Nicole Winfield, America, 1-22-18)

168. Striking God’s Anointed One (Mark Mallett, The Now Word, 1-18-18)

169. Articles on Pope Francis and Sex Abuse Scandals in Chile (one / two / three / four / five) (2-18-18)

170. Development or Corruption? (Gerhard Cardinal Müller, First Things, 2-20-18)

171. Responding to the Five Dubia from Amoris Laetitia Itself (Dr. Robert Fastiggi, Vatican Insider / La Stampa3-9-18)

172. Ratzinger, “Francis with no theological formation? A foolish prejudice” (Andrea Tornielli, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 3-12-18)

173. Douthat’s Francis book is poorly sourced, inadequate journalism (Michael Sean Winters, National Catholic Reporter, 3-21-18)
*
174. On Charging a Pope with Heresy (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 5-2-19)
*
175.  Some Clarifications Regarding the Open Letter (Jimmy Akin, JimmyAkin.com, 5-3-19)
*
176.  A Response to Peter Kwasniewski (Jimmy Akin, JimmyAkin.com, 5-4-19)
*
177.  A Second Response to Peter Kwasniewski (Jimmy Akin, JimmyAkin.com, 5-5-19)
*
178. Pope Francis On . . . [31 different issues] (Mark Mallett, The Now Word, 4-24-18)
*
179. Pope Francis: Our Father Should Say “Abandon Us Not When in Temptation” (Fr. Matthew P. Schneider, LC, Through Catholic Lenses, 12-11-18)
*
180. The Politically Incorrect Francis—14 Shocking Statements (Paul Kengor, Crisis Magazine, 3-22-19)
*
181. Cardinal Sarah: To oppose the pope is to be outside the church (Cindy Wooden, National Catholic Reporter, 10-9-19)
*
182. Clarity is Next to Godliness [atheist mythicist Scalfari claimed that Pope Francis denied Jesus’ divinity . . .] (Jimmy Akin, Catholic Answers Magazine, 10-10-19) 
*
183. Paganism in the Vatican? Hermeneutic of suspicion at its peak (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 10-16-19) 
*
184. Our Lady of the Amazon, Pray for Us (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 10-16-19) 
*
185. Our Lady of the Amazon: solving the contradictions (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 10-26-19) 
*

186. Pachamama, Celibacy, and the Amazonian Synod (Trent Horn, Catholic Answers, 10-23-19; audio with transcript)

*
187. Synod offers cautious support for married priests, study of women deacons (Inés San Martín and Christopher White, Crux, 10-26-19)
*
*
189. Just the Facts: the Amazon Synod (Jimmy Akin, Catholic Answers, 10-29-19)
*
190. What Did Pope Francis Really Say About Married Priests? (Fr. Charles Grondin, Catholic Answers, c. 10-30-19)
*
*
*
193. Pachamama: Is It A Gotcha Mama for Enemies of Pope Francis? (“Catholic in Brooklyn”, 11-6-19)
*
194. Pachamama – the missing piece of the puzzle (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 11-10-19)
*
195. The Pachamama Primer (Dom Cornelius, Abbaye de Saint-Cyran, 10-27-19)
*
196. Conservatism and Fideism: My answer to Ross Douthat (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 11-13-19)
*
197. St. John Paul II: ‘Respect for life extends to the rest of creation’[Pope Francis was not the first to address environmentalism and ecology] (Deacon Greg Kandra, The Deacon’s Bench, 11-18-19)
*
198. It was clearly idolatry! [“Pachamama” controversy] (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 12-1-19)
*
199. Fr. Pacwa and divine signs [“Pachamama” controversy] (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 12-16-19)
*
200. Is “Mother Earth” a Catholic Concept (Church Fathers)? (Rosemarie Scott, hosted at Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 12-17-19)
*
201. Our Lady of the Amazon – 2018 Video Footage Emerges (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 10-17-19)
*
202. Pope Francis and Mary Co-Redemptrix (Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 12-27-19)
*
203. Francis: Evangelize by Example, not Pushing Your Faith on Others (Fr. Matthew P. Schneider, Through Catholic Lenses, 12-23-19)
*
204. On yanking and slapping hands (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 1-1-20)
*
205. The infallibly erring Pope (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 1-3-20)
*
206. Pope Francis and the coredemptive role of Mary, the “Woman of salvation” (Mark Miravalle & Robert Fastiggi, La Stampa, 1-8-20)
*
207. Making things right [hand-slapping incident: see #407, 409] (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 2-5-20)
*
208. 8 Questions (and Answers) About the Pope’s New Document [Querida Amazonia] (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 2-12-20)
 *
*
210. Dr. Fastiggi: Open Letter Re Abp. Viganò, Pope Francis, & Mary (hosted at Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 2-22-20)
*
211. Dr. Fastiggi Defends Pope Francis Re “Pachamama Idolatry” (hosted at Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 3-3-20)
*
212. Pope Francis, the Corona Virus, and Nature (Jimmy Akin, JimmyAkin.com, 4-8-20)
*
213. Is Archbishop Viganò in Schism? (Dr. Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 6-13-20)
*
214. Silence according to Pope Francis (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 12-5-18)
*
215. Silence: the shield against Suspicious Man (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 12-10-18)
*
216. Why the Vatican is silent on Viganò (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 7-7-20)
*
217. Pope Francis: Don’t be afraid that God has allowed different religions in the world (Carol Glatz, America, Catholic News Service, 4-3-19)
*
*
219. Vigano: Radical Traditionalism Redivivus (Adam Rasmussen, Where Peter Is, 7-13-20)
*
220. Exposing Viganò’s spurious theory of two councils (Adam Rasmussen, Where Peter Is, 7-14-20)
*
221. The “Fake News” of Viganò and Company. Unmasked by a Cardinal [Cdl. Walter Brandmüller corrects the errors of Abp. Vigano and Bp. Schneider regarding the councils of Constance and Florence] (Sandro Magister, L’Espresso, 7-13-20)
*
223. Dr. Peters’ deer & hunter: death penalty & the inversion of roles” (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 4-12-20)
*
224. Those Pope Francis quotes: Video editing and media controversy” [same-sex unions controversy] (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 10-22-20)
*
225. Pope Francis’s Words on Civil Unions Distorted by Editing (Fr. Matthew Schneider, Through Catholic Lenses, 10-22-20)
*
226. Has Pope Francis changed Church teaching on same-sex civil unions? (Dawn Eden Goldstein & Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 10-22-20)
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227. Full Text Proves Francis Meant Civil Unions INSTEAD OF “Gay Marriage” (Fr. Matthew Schneider, Through Catholic Lenses, 10-24-20)
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229. Nuncio Further Clarifies Pope on Civil Unions (Fr. Matthew Schneider, Through Catholic Lenses, 11-5-20)
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230. Which God’s Will?[Re: Diversity of Religions] (Dr. Randall B. Smith, The Catholic World Report, 11-15-19)
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231. Pope Francis and Papal Authority under Attack (Dr. Robert Fastiggi, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 2-18-19)
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232. Bellarmine, Taylor Marshall, and Ryan Grant on Papal Faith (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 8-1-20)
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233. Vatican I taught that no Pope can teach heresy or be a heretic (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 7-23-20)
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234. Dear 1Peter5, Your Claims about Gasser and Pighius are False (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 7-23-20)
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235. Bishop Vincent Gasser to the fathers of Vatican I on papal faith (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 10-23-20)
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236. The Errors of John Salza and Robert Siscoe on the Papacy (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 8-22-20)
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237. Fr. Iannuzzi asks Can a Pope Become a Heretic? (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 3-22-17)
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238. How the Canonization of Three Popes by Pope Francis utterly defeated the Papal Accusers (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 8-16-20)
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239. The Argument from Past Papal Error is not Valid (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 8-13-20)
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240. The Crypto-Schismatic Position called “Recognize and Resist” (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 8-8-20)
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241. Is Taylor Marshall a sedevacantist? Yes. (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 7-31-20)
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242. Reply to Carlo Vigano on Fratelli Tutti (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 10-7-20)
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243. Every Papal Teaching is Free From Every Grave Error (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 10-8-20)
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244. If Pope Francis is a heretic, how is he still Pope? (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 10-7-20)
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245. Pope Pius IX Syllabus of Errors and Freedom of Religion (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 10-12-20)
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246. Can a Pope intend to cause a Schism? (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 10-23-20)
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247. Contra Raymond Leo Burke on Civil Unions (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 10-23-20)
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249. Has Pope Francis changed Church’s doctrine on Homosexuality? (Francis Figuero, The Reproach of Christ, 10-22-20)
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250. Every Roman Pontiff is Indefectible (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 12-29-16)
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251. Summary of “The Indefectibility of the Roman Pontiff” (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., Catholicism.io, 4-30-19)
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252. The Innocence of Pope Honorius (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 10-18-20)
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253. In Defense of Pope Honorius (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., Catholicism.io, 5-15-19)
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254. Was Pope Honorius I a heretic? (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 9-17-16)
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255Popes Francis, Vigilius, Paul IV, and Ex Apostolatus Officio (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 12-19-19)
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256. The Innocence of Pope John XXII (Ronald L. Conte, Jr., The Reproach of Christ, 5-3-19)
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257. The Heretical Pope Fallacy (Emmett O’Regan, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 12-11-17)
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258. Dr. Fastiggi on Amoris Laetitia, Pope Francis, & Aquinas (Dr. Robert Fastiggi & Dave Armstrong; hosted on Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 2-1-21)
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259. I was not an ultramontanist then (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 3-5-21)
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260. Papal Indefectibility: Dr. Fastiggi vs. Fr. Z (hosted on Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 3-11-21)
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261. Can a Pope Become a Heretic? (Rev. Joseph L. Ianuzzi, STD, Ph.D)
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262. The Roman Pontiff: Immunity from Error and Never-failing Faith (collection of Catholic sources; compiled by Ronald L. Conte, Jr.)
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265. Traditionis Custodes: The Council and the Roman Rite (Adam Rasmussen, Where Peter Is, 7-16-21)
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266. Traditionis Custodes: In the Hope of Liturgical Reform (Daniel Amiri, Where Peter Is, 7-17-21)
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267. Et Cum Spiritu NoNo–The Demise of the Traditional Latin Mass Experiment (Monsignor Eric Barr, Thin Places, 7-17-21)
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268. Francis: The Pope We Need (Monsignor Eric Barr, Thin Places, 11-9-19)
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269. The modernist root of radical traditionalism (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 7-14-21)
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270. Pope Francis understands Fr. Martin—Do we? (Rachel Amiri, Where Peter Is, 7-2-21)
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271Pope Francis’s Changes to the Latin Mass (Catholic Answers, 7-20-21)
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272. Traditionalism’s flawed approach to the Magisterium (Adam Rasmussen, Catholic Outlook, 1-19-21)
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273. Is Traditionis Custodes an Abuse of Papal Authority? (Michael Lofton, Reason & Theology, 8-17-21)
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274. Did the Pope Say the Commandments are Relative? (Fr. Matthew P. Schneider, LC, Through Catholic Lenses, 8-19-21)
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276. Aquinas: Some Sins Worse Than Sexual Sins (Fr. Matthew P. Schneider, LC, 12-10-21)
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277.  Does Amoris Laetitia untie the knots in Veritatis Splendor? (Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 7-4-22)
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278. Amoris, Veritatis, and things left unsaid (Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 7-22-22)
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279. Dr. Brugger and Papal Authority [contraception and Amoris Laetitia] (Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 8-12-22)
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280. Does Pope Francis Contradict The Council of Trent? [Desiderio Desideravi] (Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 9-17-22)
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282. Our Mother Mary & “Mother Earth” (Rosemarie Scott) (Rosemarie Scott, hosted at Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 4-4-23)
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283. Pope Francis upholds Catholic ban on contraception (Simon Caldwell, Catholic Herald, 5-2-23)
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284. Capital Punishment and Magisterial Authority (+ Part 2, Part 3, Part 4) (Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 8-17-23)
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285. 5 Things to Know About the Pope, St. Vincent of Lérins and Doctrinal Development [related to the pope’s statements on the death penalty] (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 8-31-23)
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286. Blessings undisguised: Debunking disinfo on Francis and gay unions (Dawn Eden Goldstein, Where Peter Is, 10-8-23)
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287. Cardinal Gerhard Muller on Papal Authority over Bishops (Ron Conte, The Reproach of Christ, 9-21-23)
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288. Cardinal Müller and the Destruction of the Church (Rachel Amiri, Where Peter Is, 10-11-22)
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291. Pope Francis Does Not Support Homosexual Unions That Mimic Marriage (Tim Staples, Oct.? 2023)
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292.
Papal Consistency on Same-sex Blessings (Deacon Tracy Jamison, Where Peter Is, 10-18-23)
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294. What Pope Francis said about Cardinal Burke (Austin Ivereigh, Where Peter Is, 11-29-23)
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295. Catechism on the New Gay Blessings Document (by a “very holy priest” & Michael Lofton, Reason & Theology, 12-19-23)
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296. Demystifying ‘Fiducia Supplicans’: Answering 7 Frequently Asked Questions [blessings for homosexuals] (Pedro Gabriel, The City & the World, 12-20-23)
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297. If Social Media Was Around in Christ’s Day [satire] (anon. priest, Reason & Theology, 12-20-23)
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298. Blessings: A pastoral development anchored in tradition (Rocco Buttiglione, Vatican News, 12-20-23)
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299. Does The Catholic Church Now Allow Same-Sex Unions? (Fr. Pablo Migone, Labyrinthine Mind, 12-21-23)
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301. Clarity in Confusion: An Approach to “Fiducia Supplicans” (Dr. Richard DeClue, Word on Fire, 12-21-23)
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304. Pope OKs blessing persons in gay unions: What it means, why it matters (Dawn Eden Goldstein, Where Peter Is, 12-19-23)
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307. Vatican responds to widespread backlash on same-sex blessing directive (Courtney Mares, Catholic News Agency, 1-3-24)
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308. Response to Cardinal Müller’s essay on Fiducia Supplicans (Jake Hardin, Where Peter Is, 1-3-24)
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309. Always with the Pope (Rodrigo Guerra, Where Peter Is, 1-9-24)
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311. Theologian Robert Fastiggi On Papal Indefectibility (hosted at Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 3-11-24)
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312. Pope Francis’ Many ‘Paths to God’—Still Catholic! (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, The City and the World, 9-18-24)
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314. What Did Pope Francis Say About Other Religions? (Jimmy Akin with Lila Rose, 46-minute video, 9-25-24) 
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315. Is Pope Francis a Heretic? (Take number 7… and… Action!) [Catholicism & Other Religions] (Andrew Likoudis, Nature + Grace, 9-27-24)
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317. Cd. Zen Questions Synods, But Is Change Really Happening? (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, The City and the World, 11-11-24)
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318. Why are Amoris Laetitia’s critics stuck in 2017? (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 3-22-25)
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319. Peter or Private Judgment? The High Cost of Rejecting Papal Teaching (Dr. Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 3-24-25)
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321. “Robert Fastiggi: Pope Francis ‘Often Misunderstood'” (hosted at Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, 4-25-25)
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Last updated 9 July 2025

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2017-05-24T20:11:15-04:00

Debate2
 “Debate and Oratory”. Image for first page of “Debate and Oratory” section of 1909 Tyee (yearbook of the University of Washington). [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]
 
The following excerpts are from the combox of the article, “It’s Just So Obvious!”: The Case of Torture (Edward Feser, What’s Wrong With the World, 2 May 2009). Mark Shea’s words will be in blue; Francis Beckwith’s in green.* * * * *
 
You seem to me simply to be ignoring everything I said about why we need to get clear on what “torture” means before we can pull out these citations as if they were trump cards that should shut off all discussion. Would you say that the Church and the Holy Father are contradicting Scripture, since (as the citations I gave above show) it explicitly says that “torture” can be permissible in principle as a way of punishing the guilty? Presumably not; and neither would I.But how can they fail to be contradicting it? The answer is that they are evidently not using the word “torture” in exactly the same sense as that in which Scripture uses it. But in that case we need to work out exactly what is meant if we are properly to understand the force of the statements in question. . . .
***
Re: my alleged “contradictions,” if you would make some attempt to read what I wrote fair-mindedly and carefully, and in particular to note the distinctions I make between (a) what is intrinsically moral or immoral, (b) what is moral or immoral not intrinsically but only given certain conditions, (c) what is not immoral at all, either intrinsically or given current conditions, and (d) what may arguably be defensible in the light of the total body of evidence from Scripture, tradition, the teaching of the popes, etc., then I think you’ll see that there are no contradictions in what I’ve said. In short, I think you would see this if you would try to engage in a serious debate rather than looking for ways to score cheap rhetorical
points.
Re: whether I have contradicted myself vis-a-vis the specific question of whether waterboarding is torture, here too you are simply playing rhetorical games and not even trying seriously to grapple with my argument. . . .For example, you have yet to address the question of how to reconcile what you say about torture with Scriptural passages like the ones from Sirach. In the non-normative sense of “torture,” what these passages allow for is obviously torture. But it cannot be said that they allow for torture in the newer, normative sense, since Scripture cannot teach moral error. (I’m assuming you agree with this. Or do you think that Sirach is teaching error?) If you acknowledge that passages like Sirach are not teaching error, then you must also acknowledge that inflicting severe pain as a means of punishment is not intrinsically wrong (but at most wrong under certain conditions). And in that case, since one of the purposes of punishment is to deter future disobedience, the U.N. definition of torture you cite is surely inadequate. For isn’t Sirach telling us it is OK to “use someone as a means” to secure an end (i.e. future obedience)? Even if you think not, it is hardly obvious that he isn’t: These questions aren’t as cut and dried as you think, so that it is not appropriate to go around accusing people who disagree with you of being in conflict with Church teaching.

Furthermore, no one is claiming that we have to provide a definition that will cover every single case before we can say anything about the subject of waterboarding. The claim is rather that we have to provide a definition that at least is consistent with everything that Scripture and tradition tell us about the subject. Jimmy Akin proposes one possible definition when he describes torture as “the disproportionate infliction of pain” (thereby incorporating the modern tendency to use “torture” in an inherently normative sense). He argues that this definition best fits all the evidence, and also thinks that there are some cases in which waterboarding a known terrorist to extract life-saving information would not count as torture in this sense. Is he right? I don’t know, but his proposal is worth taking seriously, and is an honest attempt to do justice to everything that the Magisterium has taught.

***

One more point in response to this silly “I guess some people think that not all torture is really torture” nonsense. One finds the same rhetorical game being played by people who think that colleges and universities who require their faculty to refrain from homosexual acts are comparable to racists. “Oh, I see, so some discrimination is not really discrimination, huh?” Checkmate, right?

Of course not. The fallacy here is failing to see that “discrimination” has come to have a normative sense in addition to its older, non-normative sense. The original meaning was just something like “treating people differently.” Because some differential treatment is unjust, the word has now come to have a second, normative sense of “unjustly treating people differently.” When this is kept in mind, it is obvious that people who oppose racial discrimination but not the faculty hiring policy in question are not contradicting themselves. They might agree that both cases involve discrimination in the older, non-normative sense, but not that they both involve discrimination in the newer, normative sense. To insist that they must be contradicting themselves is just to commit the fallacy of equivocation.

The “Ah, so you think some torture isn’t torture, huh?” shtick is no more respectable than this. Everyone agrees that waterboarding is torture in the older, non-normative, descriptive sense. What they disagree about is whether it is torture in the newer, normative, “immoral by definition” sense. Here too, to insist that those who deny that waterboarding is immoral must be contradicting themselves is simply to commit the fallacy of equivocation.

I know this basic point of logic and language robs some folks of a favorite rhetorical move, but them’s the breaks.

***

Dr. Feser says he is begging for light from the Church’s teachers. They offer it. If, like you, he now objects that the light offered is unacceptable since it has not been prefaced with “Simon Peter says” then I have to conclude that the burning need for the Church to give guidance in this matter is not all that burning after all.

Man are you a nasty piece of work. I think I’m done trying to have a discussion with you, civil or otherwise, thank you very much.

***

Several parables evidently presuppose that severe corporal punishment can be just — certainly that seems to be the way they were traditionally understood (and for my money, I trust older interpreters over recent ones any day). And then there are all the even more explicit OT texts. I am NOT saying “Therefore waterboarding is OK.” I AM saying “Therefore any Christian had better think twice before saying that inflicting severe corporal punishment is ‘inherently contrary to human dignity.'” That premise is simply not available to him in the debate over waterboarding. This should be even more obvious when we consider that if capital punishment is in principle just — as I assume you’d agree the Bible makes crystal clear — then a fortiori severe corporal punishment can in principle be just. I don’t see why you think there is any Protestant/Catholic issue here. Sirach aside, the specific point I am making (about what premises are available in thedebate) applies to Protestants as well as Catholics.

I agree with you that both sides of this debate lump all sorts of things together that shouldn’t be lumped together. That’s part of my point in this discussion. There’s way too much moralistic preening and way too little careful conceptual or theological analysis. And the minute someone attempts such an analysis, some jackass accuses him of hair-splitting, or dissenting from the Magisterium, of denying the  “obvious,” or whatever. It’s disgusting and depressing, which is why I mainly try to stay out of the debate.

***

[Relevant verses in Sirach]:

E.g. here’s RSV:

33:26: Yoke and thong will bow the neck, and for a wicked servant there are racks and tortures.
33:28: Set him to work, as is fitting for him, and if he does not obey, make his fetters heavy.
42: 1, 5: Of the following things do not be ashamed… of whipping a wicked servant severely.

And here’s NAB (a post-Vatican II Catholic version — note that some
of the verses are numbered slightly differently, given the translators’
choices):

33: 27: Food, correction, and work for a slave; and for a wicked slave, punishment in the stocks.
33:29: Put him to work, for that is what befits him; if he becomes unruly, load him with chains.
42:1, 5: But of these things be not ashamed… of beating the sides of a disloyal servant.

And finally, just for fun, Today’s English Version:

33: 26: You can use a harness and yoke to tame an animal, and a slave can be tortured in the stocks.
33:28: Work is what he needs. If he won’t obey you, put him in chains.
42:1, 5: Here are some things you should not be ashamed of… beating a disloyal slave until the blood flows.

***

Since you remain absolutely baffled about what the definition of torture even is,

Yeah, that’s what I’ve been saying. I’m absolutely baffled. Totally at sea. Don’t know which end is up. Just what I said, spot on. When you can bring yourself to the point of attacking even just a plausible caricature of what I’ve said, Mr. Shea, and restrain yourself from indulging your taste for the ad hominem, maybe then I’ll buy your earlier “Aw shucks, I didn’t mean nothin'” routine and return to conversing with you.

I’m sorry you refuse to grant forgiveness

I don’t refuse. I forgive you. The reason is that I really do think that you “know not what you do.”

Judging from this and other exchanges I’ve seen, you really, honestly, do not seem to be aware how unfair and needlessly offensive you are. So, I forgive you. But for the same reason, I just don’t see much  point in trying to have a discussion with you. The fact that you seriously continue to think that I and others haven’t answered, or even tried to answer, your points is one good piece of evidence that there’s no point. Why continue when the evidence shows you’re just going to continue ignoring, ridiculing, caricaturing, making unfounded accusations, etc. and then expressing shock when someone objects to this?

Sorry.

[Then Francis Beckwith intervenes (referring to the above) with an even more wonderful reply to Mark’s nefarious antics (this is what happens when Mark tangles with two great Catholic philosophers)]:

Ed is spot on here. The main reason for my own self-imposed detachment from this conversation–found on this entry and elsewhere–is Shea’s apparent inability to entertain two possibilities:

(1) that one can honestly disagree with him while attempting to be true to Church doctrine, and

(2) that queries about definitions and distinctions are not Jesuitical inventions of the inauthentic sadist employed to excuse evil, but rather, serious attempts to advance the common good.

*** 

[Mark continued to badger on, so Dr. Feser had to resort to sarcasm, for lack of anything better to do in the face of “dialogical intransigence”]:


OK, I’ll take the bait one more time. I know I’ll regret it.

The answer to Pope Mark’s latest question is No, of course not. The girl is innocent. Not just because she hasn’t committed any evil act in the past, but because even if she was somehow “involved” in planning the future act in question, she does not have the level of maturity to be held responsible the way an adult would. So, no, of course she cannot be waterboarded. If that means NYC is toast, then yes, we’ll have to accept that, horrific as it is. Because as I’ve made clear already, like Mark, I believe that we must never do evil that good may come.

Sorry it took me so long to answer. Such a tough question for us pro-torture dissenters, you know. Had to sweat out whatever desperate, half-assed response I could come up with. (Though I see you did generously give us all of 14 minutes before deciding we were stumped.)

Well, either that or it just took me all this time to leave work, pick up my kid from school, and fire up the computer to see what Mark’s latest zinger would be.

OK, Mark, your turn. Caricature and condemn away…

***


This would comport with your earlier remarks that torture to extract confessions is illegitimate but torture to punish may be admissible. I’m still confused by the direct conflict between you and Fr. Harrison who says that torture to obtain information might be fine, but torture to punish is intrinsically immoral.

Dr. Feser: Apparently you’ve read Harrison as carefully as you’ve read me. That is, not carefully at all. Fr. Harrison explicitly says:

I do not think that the direct infliction of severe physical pain, as a punishment for duly convicted delinquents carried out by public authority in accord with a norm of law, can be categorized as intrinsically evil.


He then goes on to say that he thinks that in practice it should nevertheless not be used. I agree with both of these judgments. So, there is no conflict between me and Fr. Harrison on this particular point at all. I’ve made this clear several times, but you keep refusing to read what’s in black and white in front of you. Go to the end of part II of Harrison’s article and read it for yourself if you don’t believe me. I look forward to your acknowledgement of your misreading. It would be a good first step to acknowledging all your other ones.

You’ll notice that neither I, nor Harrison in that particular quote, refer to “torture.” That’s because, as I keep saying, the word is ambiguous. In one sense it just means “the infliction of severe bodily pain.” In that sense of the word, and only in that sense, it can’t be intrinsically immoral, because Scripture and tradition, never contradicted by the Magisterium or any pope, says that in that sense it isn’t immoral. But there is another sense of the word “torture” — the sense that is evidently being used in Veritatis Splendor, and which Jimmy Akin has plausibly argued is something along the lines of “the disproportionate infliction of pain” — on which torture is intrinsically immoral, and which I, like you, therefore condemn.

It seems to me that the dispute between us is essentially over whether or not waterboarding, specifically, counts as torture in this second sense. You say that it does, though I have yet to see an argument, or certainly any good argument, for this particular claim. My position is that whether it is torture in this second sense is not clear. It might be, but I haven’t seen a compelling argument for that claim. It might also be at least wrong all things considered, even if not intrinsically — I can certainly see strong arguments for that claim. But until I have a chance to pursue this issue in more depth, I don’t have a settled view. I have also said, though, that until the Church clarifies this issue, waterboarding shouldn’t be used.

Furthermore, I have never said that what counts as “torture” is a mystery. Like you, I think that there are many clear cases and some not so clear ones. As far as I can tell, we may disagree only about the specific question of whether waterboarding counts as torture in the second sense. But neither of us defends it.

Now how all this makes me “pro-torture” or in conflict with the Magisterium, I have no idea. Anyway, I thought it worthwhile yet one more time to summarize what I’ve already said here many times already, in the hope that you might finally see that you have been unfair in characterizing my views.

Re: the “Pope Mark” stuff, I think if you’ll go back and read through our exchange, you’ll find that the sarcasm did not begin with me. So I flung a little back your way. Sue me, I’m only human…

[Feser opposed the mantra of someone else (one that we have seen over and over in this debate)]:

“If the thesis is that water torture is not obviously torture”

William, if even men of good will like yourself still cannot muster even enough fairness and objectivity to acknowledge that no one is defending such a silly, self-contradictory claim, then it’s no surprise that little “headway” is being made — nor any mystery about whose fault that is.

* * * * * 
 
 
2017-05-25T15:25:04-04:00

. . .  The Reports are Greatly Exaggerated (Peter Kwasniewski and Fr. Thomas Kocik vs. Pope Benedict XVI)
BenedictXVI2
Pope Benedict XVI on 20 January 2006. Photograph by Sergey Kozhukhov [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]

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See also Part II

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(2-14-14)

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I defend Holy Mother Church and the Mind of the Church. Always have, always will. I defended Blessed Pope John Paul II (soon to be a saint); I’ve defended Ven. Pope Pius XII (the outrageous charge of collusion with the Nazis), and Pope Francis (my latest book). Now I have to defend Pope Benedict XVI: ironically over against those who regard him as their champion and hero (because he was particularly a liturgical reformer).

They show no qualms about seriously disagreeing with Pope Benedict XVI, and going down (wholeheartedly or partially) the road of not just preferring the Extraordinary Form / Tridentine Mass, but doing so while “bashing” the other form. 

[see my paper on the definition of radical Catholic reactionary and book on the topic]


My own preferences and practices in worship have been made clear again and again. I absolutely detest; loathe liturgical abuses: as much as any “traditionalist” or self-identified “liturgical reformer” on the face of the earth. I also note that an abuse of a thing is not the thing itself (and that is a fundamental mistake made, that we will examine below). I’ve written a lot about legitimate  “traditionalism” (see my page for that overall topic), and about the liturgy and related issues (see that page).

My position on freedom of Catholic worship has always been identical to Pope Benedict’s (thus making it an easy and natural task for me to defend him and his views on this score): the Tridentine Mass ought to be freely available and is a wonderful, venerable liturgical tradition. That’s been my position since 1990 when I converted. My parish has been one of the few that offer the extraordinary form in the archdiocese of Detroit. I’ve attended there 23 years. I have attended it several times, but I myself prefer Novus Ordo Latin, in the very traditional way my parish offers it, with excellent traditional musical accompaniment as well.

I detest prejudice against those who prefer the Old Mass and also prejudice against the New Mass (which I’ve defended at great length) and those who prefer that (the topic in this paper). I detest folks creating divisions where there ought to be none whatsoever. Live and let live. Worship and let worship. What is so complicated about that? St. Paul detested contentiousness and division, too. It’s a perfectly acceptable Christian position to take. The devil divides and conquers. Catholics ought to be unified.

One must always start with these proclamations and disclaimers, because I know from experience that one’s “credentials” are always brought into these discussions, and if I didn’t do this I’d be accused immediately by some, of being a “modernist” or a “neo-Catholic” and of “not caring about liturgy” etc. etc. ad nauseum, ad infinitum. So I nip that in the bud at the outset.

 
Pope Benedict XVI placed both forms of the Roman Rite Mass on an equal footing. The very framework he placed them in (“ordinary / extraordinary”) shows full well that one is the norm or usual occurrence and the other is equally highly regarded, but is extraordinary (i.e., less often, which is the literal meaning of the word: “separate from the ordinary”).


The apostolic letter of Pope Benedict XVI: Summorum Pontificum (7 July 2007) stated:

. . . the Second Vatican Council expressed the desire that with due respect and reverence for divine worship it be restored and adapted to the needs of our age. Prompted by this desire, our Predecessor the Supreme Pontiff Paul VI in 1970 approved for the Latin Church liturgical books restored and partly renewed, and that throughout the world translated into many vernacular languages, have been welcomed by the Bishops and by the priests and faithful. . . .

Art. 1. The Roman Missal promulgated by Paul VI is to be regarded as the ordinary expression of the law of prayer (lex orandi) of the Catholic Church of Latin Rite, while the Roman Missal promulgated by St Pius V and published again by Blessed John XXIII as the extraordinary expression of the law of prayer (lex orandi) and on account of its venerable and ancient use let it enjoy due honor. These two expressions of the law of prayer (lex orandi) of the Church in no way lead to a division in the law of prayer (lex orandi) of the Church, for they are two uses of the one Roman Rite.


In his letter to the bishops on the same day, on the same topic, the Holy Father elaborated:

. . . it must first be said that the Missal published by Paul VI and then republished in two subsequent editions by John Paul II, obviously is and continues to be the normal Form – the Forma ordinaria – of the Eucharistic Liturgy.  The last version of the Missale Romanum prior to the Council, which was published with the authority of Pope John XXIII in 1962 and used during the Council, will now be able to be used as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgical celebration.  It is not appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as if they were “two Rites”.  Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite.

. . . in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear.  I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion.  And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.


In other words, the pope is careful to distinguish corruptions and abuses (“arbitrary deformations”) of the New Mass from the Mass itself, as promulgated by the Church, in a way that RadCathRs often do not do. For them, it is intrinsically corrupt and inauthentic. For Pope Benedict XVI it is as legitimate as the older Tridentine Mass.


. . . the two Forms of the usage of the Roman Rite can be mutually enriching . . .

The most sure guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives. This will bring out the spiritual richness and the theological depth of this Missal.. . .


Again, it is disharmony with “liturgical directives” that is a problem, not the New Mass itself.


There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal.  In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture.  What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful.  It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.  Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books.  The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.


Pope Benedict XVI made the following related statement in an interview on 12 September 2008:

Fr Federico Lombardi, S.J., Director of the Holy See Press Office: What do you say to those who, in France, fear that the “Motu proprio’ Summorum Pontificum signals a step backwards from the great insights of the Second Vatican Council? How can you reassure them?

Benedict XVI: Their fear is unfounded, for this “Motu Proprio’ is merely an act of tolerance, with a pastoral aim, for those people who were brought up with this liturgy, who love it, are familiar with it and want to live with this liturgy. They form a small group, because this presupposes a schooling in Latin, a training in a certain culture. Yet for these people, to have the love and tolerance to let them live with this liturgy seems to me a normal requirement of the faith and pastoral concern of any Bishop of our Church. There is no opposition between the liturgy renewed by the Second Vatican Council and this liturgy.


On each day [of the Council], the Council Fathers celebrated Mass in accordance with the ancient rite and, at the same time, they conceived of a natural development for the liturgy within the whole of this century, for the liturgy is a living reality that develops but, in its development, retains its identity. Thus, there are certainly different accents, but nevertheless [there remains] a fundamental identity that excludes a contradiction, an opposition between the renewed liturgy and the previous liturgy. In any case, I believe that there is an opportunity for the enrichment of both parties. On the one hand the friends of the old liturgy can and must know the new saints, the new prefaces of the liturgy, etc…. On the other, the new liturgy places greater emphasis on common participation, but it is not merely an assembly of a certain community, but rather always an act of the universal Church in communion with all believers of all times, and an act of worship. In this sense, it seems to me that there is a mutual enrichment, and it is clear that the renewed liturgy is the ordinary liturgy of our time.


[see also, along these lines, Dr. Jeff Mirus’ excellent article, “The Mind of the Church on the Novus Ordo,” Catholic Culture, 13 August 2010]


Professor of theology and philosophy, Peter Kwasniewski recently posted the article,  “The Growing Realization of the Irreparable Failure of the Liturgical Reform” (21 Feb. 2014, New Liturgical Movement). Now with the background of Pope Benedict’s opinions, let us proceed with our critique of some current rumblings and alarming trends among the “liturgical crowd,” which seem to be gaining traction, and are encapsulated in this article, and another that it cites.

. . . it seems we are entering a phase of great honesty and frankness in assessing not only the false principles behind the Pauline liturgical reform and the worldwide damage it has wrought . . .

The new and more realistic phase to which I refer is captured succinctly in Fr. Thomas Kocik’s recent article at NLM, “Reforming the Irreformable?,” which has attracted a remarkable amount of attention. In essence, the conclusion is this: a “reform of the reform” is not, in fact, possible. The Pauline rite is so radical a deconstruction and reconstruction of the Roman liturgy that it does not exist in the same tradition of organic development. It is a new departure, a new thing, not a revision of the old thing that had been handed down over the centuries. As an artificial liturgical entity constructed out of pieces of the Roman heritage combined with modern scholarly inventions, any future reform of it would be no more than a variation on the new theme.   


This is, right off the bat, radically contradictory to Pope Benedict. Dr. Kwasniewski never even bothers to cite any of that (as if it didn’t exist). But — true to form for virtually all such critiques — he cites pre-papal writings of Pope Benedict. I guess they are considered magisterial, whereas what he actually promulgated as pope in an Apostolic Letter (issued Motu proprio: a very high level of authority) is not. Dr. Mirus dealt with this particular common ploy in the article I linked to above.

For Kwasniewski, the Novus Ordo / New / Pauline / ordinary form Mass is “so radical a deconstruction and reconstruction of the Roman liturgy that it does not exist in the same tradition of organic development. It is a new departure, a new thing, not a revision of the old thing that had been handed down over the centuries.”


For Pope Benedict, it is (all from the above quotations): “the ordinary expression of the law of prayer (lex orandi) of the Catholic Church of Latin Rite,” and “There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal.  In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture.”


Pope Benedict says there is no rupture; Kwasniewski disagrees and says that there is one. Pope Benedict says there is organic liturgical growth; Kwasniewski denies it. Pope Benedict says that the two forms of Mass are ” two uses of the one Roman Rite.” Kwasniewski (apparently in possession of “inside information” that Benedict didn’t have) thinks it is “a deconstruction and reconstruction.”

The only way forward is . . . to return steadfastly and stalwartly to the Catholic and Roman liturgical tradition embodied in the preconciliar Missal.


That isn’t how Pope Benedict saw things. We have a choice: follow the pope, or follow those who want to dissent against his directives and the Mind of the Church that they embody. Pope Benedict said that the Old Mass was great and that the New Mass was great, and that they were two forms of one Roman Rite. “Both/and”; not “either/or.” But a lot of folks prefer to play the “either/or” game.


For them, to worship in one fashion appears to mean that the other fashion is intrinsically inferior, less pious, less orthodox. And I’m here sounding the warning against it: shouting against it from the housetops.


Fr. Kocik’s bracing honesty was the long-awaited and necessary announcement that “The Emperor has no clothes.”


I see. The problem is that the pope has no clothes, either, since he took the view that Fr. Kocik, in his “bracing honesty” rejected.

. . . people perk up when an educated priest who has specialized in the study of the Roman liturgy and who, for a long time, defended and promoted the reform of the reform, finally cashes in the chips . . .


Obviously they do! On the other hand, I perk up when an educated pope who is known and admired for his liturgical reform efforts
and who has specialized in the study of the Roman liturgy and who has always defended and promoted the reform of the reform (not stopping irrationally and reversing himself at this point), made it clear that the Pauline liturgy is an organic development of the Roman Rite and not to be disparaged.

Ya pays yer money and ya makes yer choice . . . 

. . . and says, “The only long-term solution and path into the future is to celebrate everywhere the usus antiquior, with full, active, and conscious participation.”


. . . whereas Pope Benedict’s view was that the Tridentine Mass is to be available for anyone who prefers it, while the Pauline Mass is also to be preserved. Direct contradiction, folks! To paraphrase the Bible: “Choose this day whom you will follow. As for me and my house, we will follow the pope!”


Dr. Kwasniewski then follows the time-honored (but quite unphilosophical) tradition of looking around to see who agrees with him, so as to provide an air and effect of “this is the big trend and move of the Spirit, so join us on the bandwagon!” He takes a head count of those who agree with him. Isn’t it better to follow the guidance of the Holy Father rather than the “magisterium of scholars / priests / bloggers”? I am, of course, a lay apologist and non-scholar, myself, and my opinion in and of itself carries no weight.


But this is the whole point. I’m not asking folks to follow my mere opinion, but rather, the expressly stated magisterial opinion of Pope Benedict XVI in an Apostolic Letter issued Motu proprio. I defend him and his teaching, not that of some priest or scholar or collection of same. This is what good Catholic apologists do, or should do: defend Holy Mother Church and her Mind.


Dr. Kwasniewski cites Fr. Hugh Somerville-Knapman of Dominus mihi adjutor, and his article: “The Lament of a Liturgical Loner”  (described as “very remarkable” and “soul-searching”):

So much of my reading the past year or more has shown my foxhole [i.e., the reform of the reform] to be filling with mud, slowly but ever more surely. It is not a tenable position in the long-term. . . . [I]t is hard not to conclude that the structure and the rubrics of the new Mass lend themselves to such a [cavalier, creative] practice and attitude. . . .  In other words, there is a disjunction between what we are taught happens at Mass and what seems so often to be happening. There is an incongruence between the words and the actions. It is possible to do the new Mass properly; but the new Mass seems to have the inherent flaw that it is so easy to do improperly. 


Same bad “throw the baby out with the bathwater” thinking; same massive contradiction to Pope Benedict’s view . . . Continuing his dirty laundry list, Dr. Kwasniewski cites Fr. Richard Cipolla, writing at the notorious RadCathR site Rorate Caeli, which recently sunk so low as to attack Tolkien’s Catholic credentials, and savaged Pope Francis on his first day in office, on the basis of the report of a Holocaust denier (I have a chapter about it in my book, Pope Francis Explained):

This [article by Kocik] is indeed “Tract 90” for the “reform of the reform” and sounds the death knell of any serious attempt to hold onto the fiction of continuity between the 1970 Missal and the Traditional Roman rite.  Just as Tract 90 marked the end of Newman’s attempt to find a Catholic continuity and a Via Media in Anglicanism, so does Fr. Kocik’s public articulation of the abandonment of his attempt to find a liturgical and theological continuity between the Novus Ordo and the Traditional Roman rite mark the end of the Reform of the Reform movement. What must be done now—and this will require much laborandum et orandum—is to make the Extraordinary—ordinary.


The sheer breathless absurdity of such comments compels me to (with Jesus and Paul) necessarily resort to sarcasm and the reductio ad absurdum, since rationality seems to no longer be in play with this sort of melodramatic nonsense. Who cares what Pope Benedict thinks!? We’re way beyond that . . . the old pope must have been senile in 2007. He didn’t get it, or he was pressured by the “gay lobby” at the Vatican to write what he actually didn’t believe. Everyone has their blind spots. So the former pope went a long ways and we love him for it but he doesn’t fully get it, as we do, so we’ll play the “Newman and Tract 90” game and fill in the blanks that he didn’t grasp as much as we do.

Continuing on with his counting of non-magisterial heads, Kwasniewski brings to the “stand” one Nicholas Postgate (great name, not so great reasoning):

The Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, the Missal of Paul VI, is irreparably broken. Due to the false principles, exploded assumptions, and rationalistic method behind its composition, it was wrong from the first day, and it remains wrong, no matter how well it is celebrated. Its very prayers and rubrics embody a hermeneutic of discontinuity that cannot be cured without a complete reworking that would bring it substantially back into line with the preceding liturgical tradition. . . . the Ordinary Form does not so much need to be reformed as it needs to be retired, so that the genuine Roman Rite may once again occupy its proper place in the life of the Catholic Church, as it had done for centuries before.


I need not note the massive, ubiquitous contradictions against Pope Benedict again. Most of my readers, from what I can tell, think logically and don’t need to be led by the hand in that regard.


We have come a long way since the optimism of the 1990s, when it seemed as if one might somehow restart the process of organic development from within the Novus Ordo.


1. Pope Benedict was quite “optimistic” in 2007, as pope.

2. The premise is false: there is no restart. It’s a development of what came before, with several aspects being able to be traced to the early Church (as I have done in my defense of it).


3. The only lack of “organic development” here is in the minds of these naysayers who think they can stop on a dime, reverse the proclamation of a pope and Church documents for fifty years, and say that the whole thing is rotten to the core, rather than that widespread abuses of it have occurred (which everyone who talks about the topic readily agrees to). That is no development of what came before. It’s a corruption. How ironic, huh?


No one thinking with the mind of the Church disagrees for a moment that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should always be celebrated as beautifully, reverently, and solemnly as possible regardless of the form in which it is offered . . .


Finally, something I can agree with . . .

. . . it is no longer necessary to pretend that, with a certain yet-to-be-found alchemy, we can transmute lead into gold.


That’s right. There is no way I can transmute the wood, hay, and stubble found in this article into “gold.” How sad that Dr. Kwasniewski feels this way about a form of Mass that is sanctioned by the Church. Now I’ll move on to Fr. Thomas Kocik’s recent article, “Reforming the Irreformable?” (NLM, 9 Feb. 2014):

It could be evidence of exemplary patience on the part of NLM editor Jeffrey Tucker that I am still counted among the contributors to this blog.



New Liturgical Movement also posted a hard-hitting article today that takes a much different view (basically the same as my own, and — I would argue — Pope Benedict’s). I will discuss that below.


I have the impression that whatever can be said in general terms about the ‘reform of the reform’—its origin and aims, its scope and methodology, the various proposals advanced in its interest (if not in its name), its proponents and critics—has pretty much already been said.


That’s a very clever thing to say (whether consciously so or not): that all that can possibly be said in defense of the reform of the reform has been said, and exhausted. So now we move on to the greener pastures of flat-out rejection of Pope Benedict XVI’s thought. One sort of takes the wind out of the sails of the opposing view at the outset, and leaves the impression that it is an old, tired, timeworn, outdated, outmoded opinion.


Once again, Summorum Pontificum is totally ignored (yet it is the most relevant recent magisterial document on this matter), while many other books and documents are cited. Fr. Kocik has no qualms about, e.g., citing Fr. Anthony Cekada in his footnote 10, despite the fact that he is a sedevacantist schismatic (one who thinks there is no sitting pope). Yet he chose not to cite a magisterial document from a pope, from less than seven years previously: precisely on the topic at hand.

Long before Joseph Ratzinger became Pope Benedict XVI, he was critically evaluating the reform of the liturgy following the Second Vatican Council, . . .


The pre-papal Cardinal Ratzinger is cited, while his papal decree on the topic is ignored . . . arbitrarily selective thinking . . .


As pope it was in his power to remedy the deficiencies—the “erroneous orientations and decisions”—of the reform on a universal scale not only by his teaching and personal liturgical example but also by legislation. He accentuated the liturgy’s beauty, promoted the liturgical and musical treasures of the Western Church (including of course the usus antiquior of the Roman rite), and introduced more tangible continuity with tradition in the manner of papal celebrations (e.g., the ‘Benedictine’ altar arrangement, offering Mass ad orientem in the Sistine and other papal chapels, administering Holy Communion to the faithful on their tongues as they knelt).


Yes he did. He also wrote Summorum Pontificum. Why, then, isn’t it mentioned, and agreed or disagreed with, along with reasons for same?


. . . the ‘reform of the reform’ is not realizable because the material discontinuity between the two forms of the Roman rite presently in use is much broader and much deeper than I had first imagined.



What about what Pope Benedict thought about this? Doesn’t that amount to a hill of beans? Instead, we have, in effect, a “magisterium of scholars who dissent from Pope Benedict”. Who would be silly and foolish enough to follow them rather than the Holy Father!? It seems directly contrary to how our system works. Why have a pope at all if his magisterial statements are so disregarded?

Whatever else might be said of the reformed liturgy—its pastoral benefits, its legitimacy, its rootedness in theological ressourcement, its hegemonic status, etc.—the fact remains: it does not represent an organic development of the liturgy which Vatican II (and, four centuries earlier, the Council of Trent) inherited.


Pope Benedict XVI (2007):


There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal.  In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture.  . . . the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books.  The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.


But László Dobszay and Lauren Pristas and others have convinced Fr. Kocik otherwise, so apparently in his mind they overcome Summorum Pontificum. In an earlier article about Pristas (4 August 2013), Fr. Kocik wrote:

The necessity and magnitude of a liturgical “reform of the reform,” as well as the validity (from a liturgico-historical perspective) of the notion of “one rite, two forms,” depend largely on the question whether the reformed liturgical rites—in this case, specifically the orations of the Missal of Paul VI—are in substantial continuity with the preceding liturgical and theological tradition.


Pope Benedict XVI says that it is in continuity. Fr. Kocik says no. I follow the pope. But Fr. Kocik says: “László Dobszay (†2011) and Lauren Pristas, have opened my eyes to the hack-job inflicted by Pope Paul VI’s Consilium on the whole liturgical edifice of the Latin Church.” Thus, we have a magisterium of liturgical scholars rather than the papal and conciliar magisterium.

To draw the older and newer forms of the liturgy closer to each other would require much more movement on the part of the latter form, so much so that it seems more honest to speak of a gradual reversal of the reform (to the point where it once again connects with the liturgical tradition received by the Council) rather than a reform of it.

The twofold desire of the Council fathers, namely, to permit innovations that “are genuinely and certainly required for the good of the Church” and to “adopt new forms which in some way grow organically from forms already existing” (SC 23) could indeed be fulfilled, but not by taking the rites promulgated by Paul VI as the point of departure for arriving at a single, organically reformed version of the ancient Roman rite: that would be like trying to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again.


In other words, we stop on a dime, “diss” the “reform of the reform” altogether, reverse course, and now believe the opposite of what the Church and Pope Benedict XVI have been saying?


The good news is that New Liturgical Movement posted today (2-24-14) a fantastic, pro-magisterium article by Bishop Peter J. Elliott, entitled “Reform of the Reform – Not Impossible”. What a breath of fresh air. Finally, someone mentions what Pope Benedict XVI said on the topic!:

I have become uneasy with the words “reform of the reform”. It is hard to find a better expression, “enrichment” perhaps. But now that the concept and project of the reform of the reform is under attack in NLM, let me speak frankly. Permit me to offer counsel to those who announce the total failure of the post-conciliar liturgical reform, claiming that a reform of it is impossible and insisting that the Extraordinary Form is the only answer.


. . . I do not want to see the gains of the reform of the reform project, fragile as it often is, broken or derided by triumphalist rhetoric, or pushed aside by an impatience that dismisses the whole Paul VI reform as beyond salvation.


. . . the integrity of the two forms needs to be preserved and respected, even as the two are meant to influence each other in these times.


. . . Please let us keep this important conversation realistic, patient and moderate. The gift of Summorum Pontificum and Pope Benedict’s vision should not be compromised by loudly proclaiming the total failure of the Paul VI post-conciliar reforms. Sweeping claims and an imprudent triumphalism do no credit to some advocates of the Extraordinary Form. Nor is the Ordinary Form respected or supported by those who grumble about the new ICEL translations and others who draw absurd conclusions from a simpler papal liturgical style.

Polemics also demean and discourage those of us who are still working to enrich the liturgy that is celebrated in most Roman Rite churches around the world. However, to maintain Pope Benedict’s Pax Liturgica, we all need much patience, and often that is hardest virtue on the Christian journey. 


Bravo! And on that positive note, I shall end.


* * * * *


Fr. Hugh Somerville-Knapman, who was cited in Dr. Kwasniewski’s article, responded in comments to this article. I replied back. Here is the exchange (his words will be in blue):

I shall be brief, and leave the others attacked to defend themselves should they care to. However, it seems fair to say that all those you attack esteem Benedict XVI highly, and have read such of his works as The Spirit of the Liturgy and others that do offer a searching critique of the current OF Mass.

Dear Fr. Hugh,

Thanks for your response.


Of course they esteem him highly. That’s precisely why the critique has force and “hits between the eyes”: because it highlights the tension between respecting him and contradicting what he decreed as pope.


Benedict XVI clearly confirmed the OF Mass as the norm, the status quo. He rarely raved about it.

As for my supposedly throwing the baby out with the bathwater, even from the section of my post that you cite it is explicit that I believe the OF can be done well, and in fact that is something I try to do every day being someone who celebrates the OF Mass exclusively.

Yes, but that is a separate issue from whether it is intrinsically deficient or not. You think it is. I do not, nor does (it seems) Pope Benedict. In the section cited you refer to “the structure and the rubrics” and “the inherent flaw.” That goes beyond abuses, to the thing itself (“baby” rather than just “bathwater”).

You said more along the same lines in the same article cited:


If you remove so many of the sacralizing elements of a ritual, of course it is going to end up secularized.

Here probably comes the nub of the issue: the new Mass has the inherent quality that it allows the celebrant to take over. He is “president” (an awful word in liturgy), and too easily he becomes star of the show.


If a priest wants to be a “star”, that quality resides in his heart and soul (Sermon on the Mount). It has to begin there first, and is an ego problem. It’s not created by one form of liturgy or another. He had to make that choice of making himself the center of attention.


That doesn’t come from, e.g., merely looking at the people [as he alluded to in his article] (otherwise, popes at St. Peter’s would be subject to the same corruption).



In one of your comments under your post, Father, you again went after inherent qualities of the New Mass:


You confirm my intuition that the old Mass inherently tended to the sacred, despite the priest be he good or otherwise, and that the new Mass inherently tends away from the sacred, despite the quality of the celebrant.


And you critique it as “Protestantized”:

You touch on what is very much a sore point for some people; namely, that the new Mass seems to be a wide-ranging adoption of Reformation principles and tenets. Scarier still is the admission on the part of Annibale Bugnini, the architect of the liturgical reforms, that they were made with a view to removing barriers between us and Protestants.


Then you appear to contradict your own rhetoric against the ordinary form:

The danger is when we start saying one rite/form is holier than another. Since all the various rites and forms of the Catholic Church have been sanctioned by the Church they certainly convey grace, to those properly disposed, when they are celebrated according to the mind of the Church (reflected most surely in the rubrics).


Now that, I wholeheartedly agree with, because this is Pope Benedict’s position and the Mind of the Church.

Nor does the New Mass necessarily have to become secularized. Priests make that choice. We have celebrated a perfectly traditional reverent Latin Novus Ordo Mass in all respects at my parish all along. I’ve been there 23 years.


Whether it becomes corrupt or secularized is due to the priests who conduct it, and decide not to follow the rubrics and the proper spirit. Every clown up on the altar was there because some priest decided to allow it. It’s not inherent in the form; otherwise the way it is celebrated at my parish could never have happened.

If there is anything reactionary it is to be found in your tone, which has none of the quiet and reasonable politeness of those you attack. Indeed you come close to ranting. 

The paper was in the style of what I would call “polemic / prophetic”: utilizing reductio ad absurdum. I utilize that style when I think something is particularly objectionable. Granted, that is a judgment call. But that’s why and when I do that.

[note: on 1 March 2014 I went through the paper and changed quite a bit of it: that to me read as too polemical and too often rhetorically over-the-top, so I grant to considerable extent Fr. Hugh’s point]


No one likes to be critiqued, and above all, they hate it if it is in a more polemical or condemnatory tone, because they deny that their position deserves such treatment. Thus, it comes down to how serious the error is in the first place. I think it’s extremely serious.


You have a high concern about my tone. I have equally a high concern about the dangerous ideas that I critiqued, and the direct contradiction of a pope. I think what I am critiquing is very insulting to the New Mass.


If you want to convince me otherwise, you’ll have to make arguments, not merely denounce my style.


I did, however, look over the paper again and modified a few things that I thought were too harsh, upon reflection a day later, while not altering anything essential, or the overall argument made.

[and now I’ve done so again, several days later]


How this serves the Faith I do not know. 

It jars people and wakes them up to the seriousness of the error. It is “proclaiming from the rooftops.” You think it is not error at all. I think it is very serious error, with dire consequences of possible schism and division in the Body of Christ, the more it spreads. Thus, my “prophetic” tone in condemning it.

That style of rhetoric may have worked in the protestant world, but it only alienates many otherwise sympathetic readers. In all things, charity: this should at least be our aim.

Blessings.

As in all such efforts, some (like yourself) are turned off (because they agree with what is critiqued) and others are jolted into realizing the seriousness of what is critiqued. When Jesus went after the Pharisees and scribes, they didn’t like it, got pretty angry and offended, and decided to kill Him.


But the ones who accepted His message went on to transform the world. Radically different responses. This is all to be expected.


You have my site on your blogroll. Certainly if you have read much of my material (presumably you have, if you decided to add it to your blogroll), you know that I’ve engaged in hard-hitting and sometimes sarcastic rhetoric before, when I felt it was necessary (in a minority of cases). But it didn’t offend you enough to remove my site from your links.


[again, I grant a large part of this criticism, because after reading through my paper again, I think it was too harsh, and so I have revised it more thoroughly. It may still be “prophetic” in style, but it need not be unnecessarily offensive and abrasive.]


May God bless you in all things, Father, as you serve Him in the priesthood. Despite our strong disagreements, I do thank you for taking your time to respond.


* * *


Dr. Kwasniewski also responded with a one-and-a-half page letter, after he and Fr. Kocik were informed of this paper.  I shall reproduce it in its entirety (at his reasonable request), and then respond bit-by-bit, as is my usual custom (to highlight the aspect of dialogue and side-by-side comparison of views):


February 25, 2014

Dear Mr. Armstrong,


Thank you for the courtesy of notifying us of your article. I read it with mild enjoyment of the rhetoric and with, not surprisingly, profound disagreement with your take on “what is the mind of the Church,” which is a concept that, in general, I think you treat in a simplistic way. If I could say a lot in a few words, it would be that your position derives from an extreme and undifferentiating ultramontanism, such as one finds (ironically) in 19th century European traditionalist circles, and it is as unhistorical and uncatholic now as it was back then.


Two hundred and sixty-six Popes have said many things over the 2,000-year history of the Church, at many and varying levels of authority. (And that is not even taking into account popes who have not lived up to their office, who have set a bad example, made horrible prudential judgments, or waffled on doctrinal matters, as did Pope Honorius I, condemned by the Third Council of Constantinople, or Pope John XXII, who preached a false opinion about the beatific vision. Yes, we can argue that this or that letter or sermon was not part of the papal magisterium, but once one is willing to go that far, one is no longer an ultramontanist.)


The papal and conciliar teachings that are de fide, as well as the errors that are anathematized, are fairly few in comparison to the sheer volume of magisterial utterances. Indeed, as you well know, even Vatican II offers fairly little traction in that regard, though I don’t deny for a moment that it teaches doctrine on faith and morals. For its part, the received liturgical tradition has more inherent auctoritas (as Fr. Hunwicke of Mutual Enrichment has recently been discussing at length) than this or that particular act of the ordinary Magisterium. That is to say, a pope is not an absolute monarch with regard to the liturgy, nor can he erase discontinuity by just saying it isn’t there. We’ve seen that technique used for the past fifty years to deny the massive crisis in the Church: “We’re in a new springtime! A second Pentecost! Everything’s chugging along beautifully!”


As for your interpretation of my take on the rupture between the OF and the EF, I largely agree with what John Gerardi of Ethika Politika has written at your Facebook page. There are many traditionalists who have explained patiently and carefully why they critique the highly controversial work of the Consilium, while yet not denying the validity of the Pauline Missal and without even necessarily disagreeing that it can have a proper place in the life of the Church, at least for a time. I do not feel that it is necessary to enter into a lengthy controversy with you on those particular arguments — they can be found by anyone

who is willing to read such authors as Dobszay, Pristas, Nichols, Reid, Davies, and Mosebach, to name some of the better known, all of whom are (or were, requiescent in pace) Catholics in communion with Rome.

I don’t know what the future will hold, but there are two factors relevant to this conversation that I wish to mention.


First, the traditional movement is growing, slowly but surely, and it will not be possible to hide forever from the Catholic faithful the discontinuity in structure, text, ethos, spirituality, and theology between the preconciliar and postconciliar Roman Missals, Divine Office, and sacramental rites. The differences are there; they are plain; they are profound. You would argue perhaps that the differences are complementary; “vive la differance!” And you would maintain that Pope Benedict has officially determined for us that they are and must be complementary. In an ideal world, this may be true; it may express a fond hope; it may be a kind of papering-over of the embarrassing nitty-gritty details that don’t lend credibility to the position. But Pope Benedict was smart enough to know that, in reality, there is not just one Roman Missal, but two; not just one Divine Office, but two—something that has never happened before in the history of the Roman Church, and something that this Pope allowed precisely BECAUSE they are essentially different, not just accidentally so. Were they different only accidentally, the later Missal and Office would have naturally supplanted and definitively abrogated the earlier one, as had
always happened before. (For more commentary, see Joseph Shaw).

Second, the longstanding abuse of the OF in all churches around the world (except for those few privileged to be like your parish in Detroit) has become a kind of custom that, like all customs, now has the force of law — if not de jure, then de facto. Your position will become much more credible when the Pope and the bishops finally demonstrate that they are aware of the predominant state of abuse, take disciplinary (not merely hortatory) steps to correct it, and welcome the restoration of precious elements of our Roman Catholic tradition the loss of which has been a bloody wound in the Body of Christ.

Sincerely yours in Christ,


Peter Kwasniewski


Thank you for the courtesy of notifying us of your article.

You’re welcome. I try to remember to extend such courtesies, especially since I so rarely receive them myself, when my views are being critiqued (or — too often — savaged, as the case may be).

I read it with mild enjoyment of the rhetoric 

Glad you liked it!

and with, not surprisingly, profound disagreement with your take on “what is the mind of the Church,” which is a concept that, in general, I think you treat in a simplistic way.

I agree with Dr. Jeff Mirus’ conception of it (he is describing the work of his apostolate):

Expressed another way, our goal was to help others to “put on Christ” (Rm 13:14) by adopting the authentic mind of the Church. This mind of the Church is not to be ascertained by what any given member of the Church says or does in his own person. Rather, it is the collective wisdom of the Church, distilled and clarified through Tradition, articulated and explained through the Magisterium, and exemplified in the lives of the saints, which is the clearest and most precise guide to thinking, acting and living according to the mind of Christ Himself.

(Instilling the Mind of the Church: An Unchanging Goal, Catholic Culture, 27 June 2008)


Dr. Mirus is no slouch. According to his biographical blurb, he has “a Ph.D. in Intellectual History from Princeton University in 1973, with a dissertation focusing on Dominican Reform and the Defense of the Papacy in the Renaissance.” More specifically, I concur with Dr. Mirus’ thought on our topic, in an article I already linked to in my paper:

So even if some of Cardinal Ratzinger’s remarks seem very negative in isolation from his entire body of work—or indeed even if it were possible to argue that his whole outlook on the Novus Ordo was negative (which was not the case)—this would tell us nothing about the mind of the Church. No, to learn the mind of the Pope (and therefore something of the mind of the Church) on such matters as the liturgy, we need to look to what the Pope has said while in office.

Second, while in office, Pope Benedict XVI has made his approval of the Novus Ordo clear. He has also made clear that his serious criticisms do not apply to the rite itself but  to the false interpretation of the Missal of Paul VI. . . .


My advice to those who seriously dislike the Novus Ordo is this: Admit your personal preference for the Extraordinary Form if you like; true Catholics should not criticize you for it, even if they prefer the Ordinary Form. Combat abuses of the Novus Ordo where you can; the Church will thank you for that. But do not denigrate the rite itself, as if it is something unworthy or profane, and never imply that the billion Catholics who use and have come to love it are somehow inferior in their Faith.


It is possible to debate the merits and demerits of any liturgy, but it is not possible to cite either Pope Benedict XVI or the mind of the Church as being anything less than in favor of the prescribed use of the ordinary form of the Roman Rite.

(The Mind of the Church on the Novus Ordo, Catholic Culture, 13 August 2010)


My mentor, Fr. John A. Hardon’s definition in his Modern Catholic Dictionary is a bit vague, but not inconsistent with my own usage in this article:

The Church’s attitude or policy in matters of faith or morals not explicitly taught in official pronouncements. Where specific doctrine or direction is absent, it is the Church’s intention behind her teaching or regulation. To act “according to the mind of the Church” is a mark of Catholic loyalty and frequently urged on the faithful by the modern popes.


I don’t think it’s rocket science that there is this entity: the Novus Ordo / New / Pauline / OF Mass that has been around since the late 60s. I see no indication whatsoever that it is to be banished (which is what you and others seem to be calling or wishing for: wholesale abandonment of it). Summorum Pontificum was very clear. Thus, I regard it as completely noncontroversial; that the “Mind of the Church” is to maintain this Mass rather than claim it is beyond all hope and that its abuses arise because of intrinsic inferiority and a rotten foundation from the get-go.


If you regard that opinion as “simplistic” so be it. I think it is “simplistic” to try to “spin” Summorum Pontificum and related documents and sentiments as anything other than what they plainly are: as if a development can be declared null and void in one day and abandoned.

 
If I could say a lot in a few words, it would be that your position derives from an extreme and undifferentiating ultramontanism, such as one finds (ironically) in 19th century European traditionalist circles, and it is as unhistorical and uncatholic now as it was back then.

Being classified as an ultramontanist is almost a boilerplate response to anyone who critiques these sorts of things. It’s untrue, as I will show. But it’s very common to reply to defenses of a pope or papal authority by making out that one supposedly agrees with absolutely everything he says or does, or that his color of socks or what side of bed he gets out are magisterial matters, etc.

This has never been my position, as I’ve explained many times. But if it is thought that it is, then I can be potentially (or actually) dismissed as a muddled, simplistic irrelevancy, without my arguments being fully engaged. Nice try, but no cigar.

Above, I was put in a box as a mere ranter, and now I’m an ultramontanist. Neither is true. The truth is that I write differently according to occasion (just as Jesus and Paul did, and St. Paul urged all of us to act: “be all things to all people”) and that I am obedient to popes (as an apologist) without being legalistic and extreme about it or claiming that they can never ever be critiqued at all.

As most know, who read anything of mine, I am a huge devotee of Cardinal Newman. I edited The Quotable Newman (Sophia Institute Press, 2012). His Essay on Development was the key that persuaded me to become a Catholic back in 1990. Now, since the 19th century was brought up in this regard, it was Newman who fought most valiantly against that mindset: opposing those such as Cardinal Manning and William G. Ward (also sometimes known as Neo-Ultramontanists). Cuthbert Butler, the historian of Vatican I, described Ward’s view as follows:

He held that the infallible element of bulls, encyclicals, etc., should not be restricted to their formal definitions but ran through the entire doctrinal instructions; the decrees of the Roman Congregation, if adopted by the Pope and published with his authority, thereby were stamped with the mark of infallibility, in short “his every doctrinal pronouncement is infallibly rendered by the Holy Ghost”.


This has never remotely been my view. Before I converted, as a card-carrying evangelical, I opposed the notion of infallibility itself  tooth and nail; despised the view as hopelessly naive and false to history. It was my biggest objection: infinitely more so than Mary or things like tradition or infused justification. I read Dollinger, Kung, and George Salmon in order to try to disprove it. Thus, I was not at all predisposed as a young convert, to ultramontanism. That would be the very last thing likely to happen. In fact, if that were what Catholicism required, I highly doubt that I would have become a Catholic at all. I follow Cardinal Newman (as I invariably do). He wrote (and I totally agree):


To submit to the Church means this, first you will receive as de fide whatever she proposes de fide . . . You are not called on to believe de fide any thing but what has been promulgated as such — You are not called on to exercise an internal belief of any doctrine which Sacred Congregations, Local Synods, or particular Bishops, or the Pope as a private Doctor, may enunciate. You are not called upon ever to believe or act against the moral law, at the command of any superior.

(The Letters and Diaries of John Henry Newman [LD], XX, 545 [in 1863], edited by Charles Stephen Dessain (London: 1961-1972), in Ian Ker, John Henry Newman: A Biography, Oxford University Press, 1988 [764 pages], 530-531)

I say with Cardinal Bellarmine whether the Pope be infallible or not in any pronouncement, anyhow he is to be obeyed. No good can come from disobedience. His facts and his warnings may be all wrong; his deliberations may have been biassed. He may have been misled. Imperiousness and craft, tyranny and cruelty, may be patent in the conduct of his advisers and instruments. But when he speaks formally and authoritatively he speaks as our Lord would have him speak, and all those imperfections and sins of individuals are overruled for that result which our Lord intends (just as the action of the wicked and of enemies to the Church are overruled) and therefore the Pope’s word stands, and a blessing goes with obedience to it, and no blessing with disobedience. (Letter to Lady Simeon, 10 November 1867; my italics)


I wrote in a paper, dated 29 March 2004:


Vatican I wasn’t even (technically) “ultramontane” in its conclusions — truth be told. The ultramontanes (people like Cardinal Manning) wanted an even broader range of papal infallibility, to include virtually everything the pope said. What was passed was quite a moderate form of papal infallibility. The “moderates” won the day, not the radicals. And that was precisely because they took a realistic view of history: the Honorius and Vigilius and Liberius incidents, for example, made a broader definition impossible because it would not be true to the facts of history. . . .

Vatican I was a quite moderate position, given the true ultramontanism of the time. The more radical position lost, and it lost decisively, because once the ex cathedra definition is given, it is irreversible. So what some consider the triumph of this radical papalism was actually its profound defeat. The pope’s infallibility was strictly limited.


Apparently you think I accept every jot and title of everything popes say. This is untrue. Five minutes spent at the search box on my blog (which contains over 2,500 papers, so that none of my views are exactly secrets) would have easily disproven this notion. But we’re all busy. Or one could hit “Catholic Apologetics” at the top, select my Papacy page, and see the section there, entitled, “Disagreeing with Popes.” Instead, because I accept Summorum Pontificum in what I think is its plain meaning and intent, and say that it is in line with the Mind of the Church, I’m told that I simplistically apply that concept and am an ultramontanist: even of an “extreme and undifferentiating” sort.


Now that one has arrived at this section of my blog, he can see the first paper posted, entitled, “Laymen Advising and Rebuking Popes.” This was written in 1997 (the year my website went online). In it, I write things like the following:

Pope John XXII was soundly and successfully rebuked by the masses when he temporarily espoused belief in a false doctrine. St. Catherine of Siena, St. Bernard of Clairvaux, and St. Francis of Assisi rebuked popes, and their advice was respected and heeded . . .

The pope does not act in isolation, as some sort of arbitrary dictator. That is a caricature of Catholic doctrine. He works closely with bishops, priests, nuns and monks, synods, Councils, and the laity. . . .


I posted another paper in November 2000, with some additions in 2001: originally in dialogue with Mario Derksen, whom I was trying to dissuade from a radical Catholic reactionary position. He subsequently became a sedevacantist. I tried. This was entitled, “Are All Catholic Laymen & Non-Theologians Qualified to Freely & Frequently Criticize the Pope’s Opinions and Prudential Judgment?” I wrote there:


Yes, one can conceivably question the pope — especially his actions (we are not ultramontanes), yet I think it must be done only with overwhelming evidence that he is doing something completely contrary to Catholic doctrine and prior practice. It is not something that a non-theologian or non-priest should do nonchalantly and as a matter of course . . .

In any event, if you want to take one particular view of what is prudent for a pope to do, that is your perfect right. . . . 

Even Protestants observe the ludicrous exercising of private judgment against a pope, since any moderately informed Protestant knows that a Catholic ought to be obedient to the pope in all but the most extraordinary circumstances (that is surely how I would have perceived your spirit in this, when I was still Protestant. I would have immediately determined that RadCathRs of this sort were liberal or radically inconsistent Catholics).  . . .



My point is not that a pope can never be rebuked, nor that they could never be “bad” (a ludicrous opinion), but that an instance of rebuking them ought to be quite rare, exercised with the greatest prudence, and preferably by one who has some significant credentials, which is why I mentioned saints. Many RadCathRs make their excoriating judgments of popes as if they had no more importance or gravity than reeling off a laundry or grocery list.
 

Even if they are right about some particulars, they ought to express their opinion with the utmost respect and with fear and trembling, grieved that they are “compelled” to severely reprimand the Vicar of Christ. St. Paul showed more deference even towards the Jewish high priest than such people do to popes (Acts 23:1-5) . . . we have both St. Paul and our Lord Jesus expressing the most vehement criticisms of appointed religious leaders, yet Paul showed quite considerable deference when he found out who he was criticizing, and Jesus commanded obedience to the very same people whose hypocrisy He excoriated [Matt 23:1-3].


I took up the topic again in 2008, this time providing two examples where I actually differed from popes, myself. The paper was called, “Is It Dissent Against the Pope and the Church, and Downright Disobedient For a Catholic to Favor the War in Iraq?” I stated:


To be in favor of this war is not at all a position in dissent against the pope, because in these areas of prudential judgment of nations he is only an advisor: albeit one who should be listened to with the utmost respect. The pope also doesn’t have all the secret intelligence that nations have. Pope Benedict XVI, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, wrote on 5-2-03 (exactly five years ago):

The Pope expressed his thought with great clarity, not only as his individual thought but as the thought of a man who is knowledgeable in the highest functions of the Catholic Church. Of course, he did not impose this position as doctrine of the Church but as the appeal of a conscience enlightened by faith.

(Interview with Zenit on the Catechism)

The present Holy Father again wrote in June 2004:

3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

(“Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion – General Principles” — L’espresso [link] )

. . . So a “real Catholic” has every right to disagree with even popes’ opinions in matters of war, as long as the war is not manifestly opposed to Catholic principles of just war altogether. Pope Benedict XVI said so. . . .

As the pope noted above, Catholics in good standing can differ on the death penalty. I happen to think that it is a wise policy to oppose it, and agree with Pope John Paul II, but on the other hand, we mustn’t get legalistic when it is not an absolute requirement to oppose the death penalty. I continue to favor it in instances of mass murderers and terrorists, in the face of overwhelming evidences of guilt.


Two hundred and sixty-six Popes have said many things over the 2,000-year history of the Church, at many and varying levels of authority. (And that is not even taking into account popes who have not lived up to their office, who have set a bad example, made horrible prudential judgments, or waffled on doctrinal matters, as did Pope Honorius I, condemned by the Third Council of Constantinople, or Pope John XXII, who preached a false opinion about the beatific vision. 

Indeed they have, as I have written about innumerable times. I am an apologist, after all (a published one for over 21 years, and full-time for 12): do you think I’m not confronted with these sorts of issues all the time: especially as one who has debated many scores of Protestants? As you can see above, I mentioned Pope John XXII along these lines in my 1997 paper. What you say here is great and informative, but a bit late in my case. I learned of and then knew all this stuff in 1990, back when Old Man Bush was the President, before the Internet, and before I became a parent (that happened in 1991). But I’m sure it’ll be helpful to many others reading, so all is not lost.

Yes, we can argue that this or that letter or sermon was not part of the papal magisterium, but once one is willing to go that far, one is no longer an ultramontanist.)

That’s right. I’ve never been one. Thus, all of your reply so far is perfectly irrelevant with regard to my position or thinking. Perhaps if you decide to reply again, we can actually discuss at greater length the issues at hand, rather than wasting time on straw men? That would be nice.

The papal and conciliar teachings that are de fide, as well as the errors that are anathematized, are fairly few in comparison to the sheer volume of magisterial utterances. 

Yep. I guess you thought I didn’t know that, either. But, from this it doesn’t follow that we have a free ticket to dissent from the pope at the drop of a hat. Lots of nuances and fine distinctions in authority: absolutely! Freedom, therefore to dissent often (and publicly), whenever we get the urge to do so? Absolutely not! I dealt with this years ago: again, in discussion with radical Catholic reactionaries or rather hard-nosed “traditionalists.”

Here is the paper: Vatican II: Is it Orthodox and Binding? / The Infallibility and Sublime Authority of Conciliar and Papal Decrees / Different Levels of Church Authority (vs. several “traditionalists”): dated July 30, 1999. In it I cite fellow wide-eyed “ultramontanists” like Fr. William G. Most (“Four Levels of Church Teaching”), Fr. John Trigilio and good ol’ Ludwig Ott. There is as much nuance and fine distinction in this long paper as anyone could ever want or hope for.

Note that even Fr. Most’s fourth level of authority (lowest of the four), derived from Lumen Gentium, requires significant submission: the very thing that radical Catholic reactionaries are far too often unwilling to give, because they think they know better than the pope and the Church:


Religious submission of mind and of will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff even when he is not defining, in such a way, namely, that the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to according to his manifested mind and will, which is clear either from the nature of the documents, or from the repeated presentation of the same doctrine, or from the manner of speaking.

We note all the qualifications in the underlined part. The key is the intention of the Pope. He may be repeating existing definitive teaching from Ordinary Magisterium level – then it is infallible, as on level 2. He may be giving a decision on a previously debated point – as on level 3, then it falls under the promise of Christ in Lk 10. 16, and so is also infallible. Or it may be a still lesser intention – then we have a case like that envisioned in Canon 752 of the New Code of Canon Law:


Not indeed an assent of faith, but yet a religious submission of mind and will must be given to the teaching which either the Supreme Pontiff, or the College of Bishops [of course, with the Pope] pronounce on faith or on morals when they exercise the authentic Magisterium even if they do not intend to proclaim it by a definitive act.

If they do not mean to make it definitive, then it does not come under the virtue of faith, or the promise of Christ, “He who hears you hears me.” Rather, it is a matter of what the Canon and LG 25 call “religious submission of mind and of will.” What does this require? Definitely, it forbids public contradiction of the teaching. But it also requires something in the mind, as the wording indicates. This cannot be the absolute assent which faith calls for – for since this teaching is, by definition, not definitive, we gather that it is not absolutely finally certain . . .


If one should make a mistake by following the fourth level of Church teaching, when he comes before the Divine Judge, the Judge will not blame him, rather He will praise him. But if a person errs by breaking with the Church on the plea that he knew better – that will not be easily accepted.

[my italics]


Ludwig Ott (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma) teaches the same. I cited him in this paper (my italics):

The ordinary and usual form of the Papal teaching activity is not infallible. Further, the decisions of the Roman Congregations (Holy Office, Bible Commission) are not infallible. Nevertheless normally they are to be accepted with an inner assent which is based on the high supernatural authority of the Holy See (assensus internus supernaturalis, assensus religiosus). The so-called “silentium obsequiosum,” that is “reverent silence,” does not generally suffice. By way of exception, the obligation of inner agreement may cease if a competent expert, after a renewed scientific investigation of all grounds, arrives at the positive conviction that the decision rests on an error.


Fr. John Trigilio concurred in his 1995 article, “A Discussion of Infallibility”:

According to Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis and Vatican II in Lumen Gentium #25, even non-infallible teachings are to receive the submission of mind and will of the faithful. While not requiring the ASSENT OF FAITH, they CANNOT be disputed nor rejected publicly and the benefit of the doubt must be given to the one possessing the fullness of teaching authority. The heterodox concept of a dual magisteria, i.e., the theologians, is not based on scriptural nor traditional grounds. Some have gone as far as to propose a triple magisteria, the body of believers. While it is true that as a whole, the body of believers is infallible in that SENSUS FIDEI is that the Church as the Mystical Body cannot be in error on matters of faith and morals, the TEACHING AUTHORITY (Magisterium) resides soley with the Roman Pontiff and the College of Bishops in union with him. [capitals in original]


Indeed, as you well know, even Vatican II offers fairly little traction in that regard, though I don’t deny for a moment that it teaches doctrine on faith and morals. For its part, the received liturgical tradition has more inherent auctoritas (as Fr. Hunwicke of Mutual Enrichment has recently been discussing at length) than this or that particular act of the ordinary Magisterium. That is to say, a pope is not an absolute monarch with regard to the liturgy, nor can he erase discontinuity by just saying it isn’t there. We’ve seen that technique used for the past fifty years to deny the massive crisis in the Church: “We’re in a new springtime! A second Pentecost! Everything’s chugging along beautifully!”

One need not deny any crisis in order to note that there are many positive developments going on in the Church. It’s massively different from 1990 when I was received. The apologetics sub-community that I am a part of is one such thing. Where were the Karl Keatings or Scott Hahns in 1990? The only current Catholic apologist I was aware of in the late 80s was Peter Kreeft. Keating was just starting out (I actually wrote to him in that year and he graciously replied). Now there are massive enterprises of apologetics and scores of apologists and Catholic radio and EWTN, etc.  We have significant numbers of converts. It’s not either/or. The existing modernist crisis is the worst in the history of the Church (as Fr. Hardon taught me). Lots of positive things are also going on, so we can point to a true springtime.  Rome wasn’t built in a day. All revivals have to begin (by definition) when things are still very bad. But they still exist.

As for your interpretation of my take on the rupture between the OF and the EF, I largely agree with what John Gerardi of Ethika Politika has written at your Facebook page.

And I agree with how I refuted it. After he tried (on my Facebook page) to drive a wedge between Summorum Pontificum and its accompanying letter, I showed how continuity was part of Summorum Pontificum also:

I object to the blanket statement that the Pauline Mass is a complete break from liturgical tradition and that, therefore, it can’t be redeemed.


In Summorum Pontificum itself: not the corresponding letter, Pope Benedict XVI wrote, citing the GIRM (2002), Pope Benedict wrote:


Since time immemorial it has been necessary – as it is also for the future – to maintain the principle according to which ‘each particular Church must concur with the universal Church, not only as regards the doctrine of the faith and the sacramental signs, but also as regards the usages universally accepted by uninterrupted apostolic tradition, which must be observed not only to avoid errors but also to transmit the integrity of the faith, because the Church’s law of prayer corresponds to her law of faith.’ (1)


Now, later, he wrote, 

Art 1. The Roman Missal promulgated by Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the “Lex orandi” (Law of prayer) of the Catholic Church of the Latin rite.


Thus, he establishes the principle of uninterrupted apostolic tradition, including the law of prayer, or Lex orandi, and then says that the Pauline Mass expresses same.

Therefore, there can be no fundamental break. It has to be seen as an organic development of what was before.

The words can be legally parsed and played with all you like, but the main gist of what he is teaching here is plain as day: both forms are to be accepted, and neither looked down upon.


But since that’s not de fide, you can dismiss it, as of no particular import? That’s what Catholics on both the right and the left of the spectrum do: play legal games and look for every possible, conceivable loophole they can find, and then drive a Mack truck through it. In fact, an apostolic letter issued Motu proprio is of very high magisterial authority: certainly no material (per the discussions above of authority) to be almost casually dismissed, as you and others of like mind are doing. An EWTN paper on “Categories of Documents” clarifies (again citing LG 25, as we saw above in similar discussions):

Papal addresses and documents may also contain teachings which come from the common teaching of the Church, but which cannot yet be said to be de fide, and even new insights and explanations which manifest the mind of the Magisterium. Such authentic teaching has a presumption of correctness and deserves the reverence and submission of Catholics. By doing so peaceful communion in matters of the faith is maintained throughout the Church, properly gathered around the principle of unity in faith given by Christ to the Church, Peter and his successors. . . . 


Motu Proprio


A document issued Motu Proprio is from the Pope on his own initiative, and not in response to a request or at the initiative of others. Its legal determinations carry the full force of papal authority, though it does not derogate from existing laws unless specifically stated. It can be any category of document.. . . 


Apostolic Letter


Letters of less solemn authority than an encyclical, they may be written on a doctrinal matter (e.g. Pope John Paul II’s Letter On the Beginning of the Third Millennium). They may also announce a papal act such as declaring a person Venerable (heroic virtue) or declaring a church a Basilica.

 

There are many traditionalists who have explained patiently and carefully why they critique the highly controversial work of the Consilium, while yet not denying the validity of the Pauline Missal and without even necessarily disagreeing that it can have a proper place in the life of the Church, at least for a time. I do not feel that it is necessary to enter into a lengthy controversy with you on those particular arguments — they can be found by anyone who is willing to read such authors as Dobszay, Pristas, Nichols, Reid, Davies, and Mosebach, to name some of the better known, all of whom are (or were, requiescent in pace) Catholics in communion with Rome.


Nor do I wish to have such a conversation. Habitually in these sorts of matters, I critique the overall view; the spirit of it, and the premises that lie underneath it (per my socratic method). Validity played no role in my critique, anyway, so that is irrelevant.

I don’t know what the future will hold, but there are two factors relevant to this conversation that I wish to mention.

First, the traditional movement is growing, slowly but surely, and it will not be possible to hide forever from the Catholic faithful the discontinuity in structure, text, ethos, spirituality, and theology between the preconciliar and postconciliar Roman Missals, Divine Office, and sacramental rites. The differences are there; they are plain; they are profound. You would argue perhaps that the differences are complementary; “vive la differance!” And you would maintain that Pope Benedict has officially determined for us that they are and must be complementary. 

Yes he has. But if people don’t want to submit to the judgments of popes (as a general approach), they won’t. One can always play games and parse words and spin and look for as many loopholes as possible, and do the legalistic thing (looking at the DNA of the bark of one tree rather than at the forest), and obsess with the equivalent of “tithing mint and cumin,” to get out of the plain implication and force and indeed, “spirit” and overall thrust of the pope’s declaration.


If you want to declare a liturgical rupture at the level of essence (not just the level of abuses) where there is none, and eschew the wise and magisterial “both/and” counsel of Pope Benedict: the great hero of “traditionalists” and radical Catholic reactionaries alike, you do so at your own peril and that of the Church: fostering attitudes that may very well (5, 10, 15 years down the road) lead to more SSPX-like schisms. Or if not that, at the very least a great deal of ugliness and division among Catholics who mutually distrust and frown upon each other because two warring camps have been set up.


Those who think as you do say Pope Benedict is their hero and champion. But it seems that he’s really my champion and hero more than yours, because I heed what he says and I don’t play with it in order to dismiss it and replace it with my own notions. I accept his authority by giving assent and submission to it and defending it. You call that “ultramontane”. I call it “Catholic.” I call your view “radical Catholic reactionary”: which I have carefully defined  after long thought and experience with the mindset for 17 years.

In an ideal world, this may be true; 

It’s not a matter of an “ideal” or “fantasy” world vs. the real world, but of papal authority and whether one accepts it or not. We have a pope for a reason. He is a unifying figure. If we dissent from him as a matter of course, why bother having a pope? Why be a Catholic at all, for that matter? When I was a Protestant, I functioned fine without a pope. But I was an evangelical, and it wasn’t part of my system. I wasn’t a Catholic acting as if papal authority had little effect on me except in ex cathedra cases.

We can’t be  Catholics and “play Protestant” (in the case of papal authority). We cant pick and choose. We have to accept the whole ball of wax. If I treated popes the way you do, I wouldn’t have bothered to convert at all, since if the pope had no effect on my beliefs (in this instance of liturgy), what is the need for him to be around? You don’t grant him the final say; precisely as I believed as an evangelical.

it may express a fond hope; it may be a kind of papering-over of the embarrassing nitty-gritty details that don’t lend credibility to the position. But Pope Benedict was smart enough to know that, in reality, there is not just one Roman Missal, but two; not just one Divine Office, but two—something that has never happened before in the history of the Roman Church, and something that this Pope allowed precisely BECAUSE they are essentially different, not just accidentally so. 

So now we’re into speculating about the intent behind the pope’s apostolic letter: the “inside information” game.  They are not essentially different. If they were, the entire gist behind Summorum Pontificum is a huge fallacy; indeed a lie. But those of your bent don’t want to go that far, so instead we get death by a thousand qualifications and second-guessing the pope. You wanna have your cake and eat it, too. You desire to go leap off the [liturgical] cliff and supposedly take Pope Benedict with you. But he’s not going with you. He rejects what you are arguing now, with your “death of the reform of the reform.” What you do, if you insist on going this route, you must do without him and, yes, apart from the Mind of the Church which the popes have represented.

Were they different only accidentally, the later Missal and Office would have naturally supplanted and definitively abrogated the earlier one, as had always happened before. (For more commentary, see Joseph Shaw).

Second, the longstanding abuse of the OF in all churches around the world (except for those few privileged to be like your parish in Detroit) has become a kind of custom that, like all customs, now has the force of law — if not de jure, then de facto.

Abuses are able to be corrected.

Your position will become much more credible when the Pope and the bishops finally demonstrate that they are aware of the predominant state of abuse, take disciplinary (not merely hortatory) steps to correct it, and welcome the restoration of precious elements of our Roman Catholic tradition the loss of which has been a bloody wound in the Body of Christ.

Laypeople have the power to demand better (both theologically and liturgically), as I have argued for many years. When I hear horror stories of parishes, I encourage people to first respectfully, charitably bring up the matter to their priest and/or bishop. If that fails,  I say that they should “vote with their feet” and find a better parish. That could be done on a wide scale. Priests who are failing in terms of liturgy or otherwise would get the message real quick. But people are inadequately catechized.

That’s where I come in. I’m trying to help them learn and defend their faith. And one of the elementary things I advise new Catholics (or any Catholic) to do, as part of Catholicism 0101, is “follow the pope.” I hope you will come to realize that this is in your best interest also, and one major way that the Holy Spirit wants to guide all Catholics, including even professors and other highly educated people.

[see also the accompanying Facebook discussion]

Go to Part II


***


2018-03-23T16:06:56-04:00

Letters
Photograph by Andrys [Pixabay / public domain]


I struggled for a bit with my faith, questioning Catholicism, . . . along the way, I found your site, fell into it, read I don’t know how much of your work, all of it, edifying, all of it, opening my eyes time and again. You turned me onto Chesterton! I wonder if you know how much your work . . . has influenced others – and in a very positive way…. So, my friend, thanks very much for your work. I do feel from your site that I know you in some way . . . funny, I feel almost “big sisterly” towards you! God is good!

Catholic laywoman and missionary, 4-24-02


I . . . just discovered your website. Honestly, you guys – Scott, Marcus, etc., etc. – are the best thing that’s happened to the Church in a very long time – here just in time to support those who will look and listen during this time of trial. God is going to purify His Church, and He’s using the infuriating, godless secular media to do it – no angel of Light, but a handy instrument to bring us to our knees. Thank You, Jesus! God bless the work!


Catholic Franciscan Friar, 5-30-02


I have just visited your website after seeing your article in Envoy. Thanks for what you are doing for the Catholic Faith. Converts seem to have more ‘fire’ in them . . . The Pope said that one day there will be a new springtime for the Church and – I feel – it will be partly due to yourself and people like you.


I am reading your first electronic book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism and I find it very informative and helpful, answering some mental queries. It seems to me that it is the converts who defend the Church with a vengeance . . . just an encouragement for you and your work. The details are very well researched.


Catholic priest, 6-7-02 and 6-16-02


I really want to thank you for helping bring me back to the Church. I had been away from the Church for 19 years . . . During that time I was involved in the New Age, Buddhism, the Episcopalian church, and even the occult . . . In March 2001 I started frequenting your site and read many of the articles. Shortly after that I went to confession and started changing my life. I am now a practicing Catholic, following all the Catholic teachings, including Natural Family Planning.


Catholic laywoman and “revert”, 7-29-02


I love all your writings. Your website is awesome . . . I am a cradle Catholic; never left the Church, but lived as a cafeteria Catholic for years. I am now back on track. Thanks for all you have done for me personally.


Catholic layman and physician, 8-12-02


Just wanted to take a second to thank you for the tremendous resource your website has provided for me in my attempts to evangelize the Catholic faith. You never fail to have the answers I’m looking for. Also, I consider your “My Respect for Protestants” a model [for] how we (as Christians) should be conducting ourselves towards each other, as apologetics so frequently degrade into stone throwing.


Catholic layman, 9-15-02


You may be interested to know that on 1st of December this year I intend (God willing) to be received into the Catholic Church ( technically speaking I intend to be reconciled to the Catholic Church, as I am a Protestant Christian ) This is due in no small part to an extensive perusal of your site!


Catholic convert, 11-19-02


I ran across your website while doing some research for our RCIA class this morning before Mass. I am teaching RCIA classes on Marian Doctrine and The Communion of Saints this month. I am anxious to receive your materials! [she ordered all eight of my books in Microsoft Word 97 format]


Catholic laywoman, 12-29-02


If there is a site that deserves the title of “mother of all
voluntary sites” it would have to be the incredible site
that has been put together by Dave Armstrong in Michigan.
Armstrong seems to have been around for as long as any of us
have been searching the internet for resources on Catholicism.
He has assembled over 1675 pages consuming some 4Mb of text
on just about every single Catholic thinker and question you can
name. Initially it was an entirely “love” commitment to the rest of
humanity but since December 2001 he’s put his money, or more
likely his faith, where his mouth is and he now does this full-time
from his home and would seem to be almost entirely dependent
on the beneficence of God sending a few donations his way and a
bit of casual work to make it happen. He also supports a wife and
young family. This is commitment with a big “C”. It is also
Catholicism with a big “C” as well but don’t let that get in your
way. Armstrong describes himself as a “Catholic Apologist,
Evangelist and Author”. This reviewer has not been convinced by
Dave, or anyone else, that tub-thumping evangelism and
apologetics is going to “re-evangelise” the Western world but
that is not to diminish the incredible contribution this man has
made for Catholics, indeed Christians, of all political and
theological persuasions by the resource that he has assembled in
the lounge-room of his own home. One suspects the tribute
ought to be paid to his wife as much as to Dave for what she
must have to put up with in a man as dedicated as this. If you
want to be “blown away” looking at the commitment of an
ordinary bloke who really does live his beliefs make sure you visit
this website at least once in your lifetime. It can be virtually
guaranteed you will learn at least one thing about your faith that
you never knew before.


Website Review by Brian Coyne for CathNews – A service of Church Resources on 6 January 2003.


I and my wife entered the Catholic Church a year ago, and your website was part of that. It was particularly useful after we announced our decision to my wife’s staunchly Protestant family.


Catholic layman, 1-22-03


I just wanted to write you to tell you what a help your web-site has been to me on my journey of faith . . . I thought I had already arrived at the truth in the Eastern Orthodox Church. I was Chrismated 8 years ago at eleven years of age, and have been a devout follower ever since . . . One of the issues that prompted my questioning was contraception; reading your section on this issue, and few other moral issues, I realized this issue in particular was no minor, “just-between-you-and-the-priest”, kind of thing. What was wrong for roughly two thousand years, is equally wrong today . . . Your web-site helped me to learn the TRUTH of the Catholic faith, and dispel any falsehoods I held concerning it, particularly in regards to the Holy Father, (God bless him!) . . . I just wanted to thank you for all the work you are doing on behalf of the Church, and let you know that God used you to help me see.


Former Orthodox, now Catholic laywoman, 4-26-03


I am a recent convert to Catholicism from Protestantism (just last week at the Easter Vigil, actually) and I wanted to thank you. One of the first things I read when I began my investigation into the Catholic faith back in August of 2002 was your article 150 Reasons Why I am a Catholic, and I found it very intriguing and inspiring. It definitely encouraged me to read more articles and books about Catholicism. So, once again, I wanted to say thank you, and I look forward to reading more of your work in the future.


Former Protestant, now Catholic layman, 4-27-03


I have to tell you, I do so admire the work you do. I can assure you, your work is touching thousands upon thousands of lives – and has been for years. Anyone – without exception – who’s even marginally involved in apologetics uses your website extensively. At least that’s been my experience. And the [first] two books of yours I’ve read are exquisitely reasoned and deeply insightful. Whats’ even more impressive is that your love for this glorious faith is palpable. I can honestly say there is no one involved in evangelism and apologetics whom I admire more than you. And I don’t say that lightly. I know our gracious Lord must hold you in great esteem as one of his most loyal and determined children – otherwise your cross would be less weighty. We should all be doing more to support good and necessary work like yours – yours in particular. And again, thanks for your wonderful work – and for not giving up. What you do is so necessary and so valuable.


Catholic layman, 5-16-03


I was brought up within the Catholic faith but at 17 I left the Catholic Church to join Protestant churches. I came back to the Catholic Church in 2000, fully convinced of its Truth and of its historicity. I left the Catholic Church for a full 15 years before coming back to it. When I decided to join Protestant churches at 17, I was almost totally ignorant of the faith of my upbringing.


. . . There was a point where I was so fundamentalist (Protestant evangelical) that I was totally anti-Catholic without even knowing why! (Like many ex-Catholics, unfortunately) I met and married my husband as a Protestant and both of us were even ordained pastors in one of the Protestant churches. My husband was brought up Catholic as well.


My husband fell ill during our ministry and we had to leave. After many trials and tribulations and disappointments and mental tiredness, my husband and I really didn’t go to church anymore. We had lost interest completely and for a few years we went to church very rarely. During those times, I lost my mother to cancer and this really got me thinking.


. . . I started becoming hungry to find out about the Catholic Church. I had the Internet at the time, so I went in the search engine and typed ‘Catholic Church’ and came upon a most fabulous and exhaustive website on the Catholic faith Biblical Evidence for Catholicsm! It answered all my questions! I was soooo happy while discovering the beauty and richness of the Catholic faith I would cry while reading the hundreds of articles!!!


Then I went to Mass one Sunday morning (on Palm Sunday 2000) after 15 years’ absence. I was just soooo moved during Mass, it was incredible. I cried during the whole Mass, . . . My husband became curious of the Catholic faith and would ask me what I had read on the wonderful website. Two months after I had started going to Mass, he joined me. The Holy Spirit was working in both of us at the same time!


I think I’ve said enough for now but I can tell you that TV and the Internet have been useful tools to bring me back to the Catholic Church! So Pope John Paul II’s new evangelism tactics are very powerful! (and inspired by the Holy Spirit!)


Catholic convert laywoman, posted 7-20-03 on the Catholic Online Internet Discussion Board, See: http://forum.catholic.org/viewtopic.php?t=8778&highlight;


I used your site a great deal in converting to the church, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for all your work. There is a real mine of information here, and many people owe you a debt for that.


Catholic convert, 8-13-03


About two-and-a-half years ago, while I was still in college, I first visited your site out of curiosity concerning how in the world Catholics defend their “unbiblical” doctrines. Because of a random search I came to your 150 Reasons Why I’m A Catholic page and needless to say I was shocked. The way you defended Catholic doctrine in short logical points with scriptural support sent me into a theological tailspin. I closed the browser quickly, but I was still left with those Bible verses and kept wondering how in the world I had missed the verses you pointed out. Well, after about two years of study, graduation, a move to Northern Michigan and lots of painful discoveries of inadequate Protestant interpretations and counter-arguments, I finally decided to join the Catholic Church. In fact, I will be starting RCIA next week thanks in large part to your web site (and, of course, God’s grace). Once again thank you very much.


Former Protestant, soon-to-be-Catholic layman, 8-28-03


Your gift of Catholic apologetics has blessed me in more ways than I could ever express. More recently God has put several people in my life who have been misinformed about the Church and I felt completely lost and overwhelmed as I saw them somewhat open and looking to me for answers. My boyfriend, who is probably your biggest “fan” then strongly recommended I check out your websites where I now feel equipped to reasearch, study, learn (for myself) and defend my faith when given the great privilege.


Catholic laywoman, 9-4-03


It occurred to me that I needed to stop and just tell you thank you, thank you, thank you, and God bless you, God bless you, God bless you – for your service to the Body of Christ. I’ve said before that I owe my conversion in large part to your website. You’ve blessed me and my family so much. I only wish I could offer you something more besides kind words and prayers.


Catholic layman and convert (from Worldwide Church of God), 9-9-03


I just wanted to say thank you for the work you do. I wish I had the money to give to you to support your work, but we starving students are pressed as is. I’ve found your first two books to be extremely useful in my own apologetic endeavours, and they have been among some of the most worthwhile purchases I’ve made in recent memory. I pray that God gives you the strength to keep up such good work. It has been a great resource and an inspiration. I look forward to purchasing your other books when they become available in print. Thank you again, so much.


Catholic layman, 9-22-03


It is impossible to tell you how much I appreciate your labor.


Catholic layman, 9-26-03


I am so incredibly thankful to see someone who is not afraid to stick it those who would believe that the Roman Catholic Church is not a sound institution. I myself am studying for the Catholic Priesthood, and have very much enjoyed your writings about pre-Lutheran vernacular Bibles – it’s a comfort to know that someone has taken the time to do the research instead of just perpetuating the myth that Martin Luther was the first to write a Bible in German.


Catholic seminarian, 10-7-03


I would like to congratulate you for a very informative website. The list of Catholic and Christian resources you have included here is exhaustive and if I may add, awesome. I have referred to it on many occasions in the past . . . I find it to be an invaluable guide and I am sure that many others also do. I truly appreciate the ideas and work you have put into this web site.


Catholic layman, 10-13-03


Thank you for your site; it has been a great help to me in coming into the True Faith.


Catholic layman, 10-13-03


While reading a review on Fr. John Hardon’s Lifetime Reading Plan I hot-linked over to a Fr. Hardon website. From there I linked over to your website. I could not let this day pass away without telling you how deeply impressed I am with your scholarship and your technical proficiency. It is the finest website of its type that I have ever seen. It is marked in my Favorites and will be used a constant resource from now on. Thank you so much for your work on this.


Catholic layman, 11-5-03


I wanted to tell you that I am now a Catholic, as of a Nov 11th. It mostly due, in order of impact, to 1) your amazing website, 2) the Coming Home Network, and 3) Scott Hahn’s conversion story. Thank you so much for all you do. Your wonderful website had just a huge influence on me during my journey to the Church, which lasted 14 months. I really can’t thank you enough for your apostolate. God is doing great works through you. Thanks again for your website. I absolutely love it, and tell everyone about it. Your website helped to make a Catholic out of me, and for that I will be forever grateful to you.


Catholic convert laywoman, 11-17-03


From December 2002:

Your website, however, along with CatholicAnswers.net, have been extremely helpful, and I thank you for that. And since your website has been so useful so far, I’ve decided to go ahead and get your books in word document format . . . for my own searching as well as to share information with my other Christian (some of whom are very anti-Catholic) and non-Christian friends . . . I just want to let you know that you are doing an amazing job and I look forward to seeing more of the work you do to the glory of the Lord. God bless and grace be with you.

On April 19 2003 during the Easter Vigil Mass at St. Thomas More University Parish in Bowling Green, Ohio I was received into the Catholic Church!!! Thanks again so much for letting God use you to help me along the way to where I am now! Your website, your books, and your links and references were probably the most significant resources in pointing me to the truths of the Catholic Church. I’ve gotta tell you, I never would have imagined a year ago having as amazing an experience as I am being a Catholic Christian. There are so many incredible things that God has revealed to me through the His true Church, and there’s more and more that keeps coming. The Church is so, so rich, of course because God is so, so rich! I’d tell you my wonderful experience in detail, but that would make this email much, much longer than it’s already going to be.

In closing, I just want to thank you again for the work you are doing to the glory of God. He has used it to make a huge impact on my life, and countless others I’m sure. Since conversion, I’ve tried to make the most of your website and resources, sharing them whenever I can with my new Catholic friends, as well as my Protestant and non-Christian friends. Thanks again Dave for everything that you’ve done! Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!!!


20-year-old Catholic convert layman, 12-2-03


Last week I saw the The Catholic Answer Bible for the first time. It was fantastic! What a great idea! Thank you for your work and your witness. I have read Surprised by Truth about six times and have given away too many copies to count. Surprised was pivotal in my turning away from “cafeteria Catholicism.” Again, thank you for your witness.


Catholic laywoman, 12-4-03


I have greatly enjoyed reading your website when I have time. It is simply unparalleled on the web. My wife and I were received in 2002 into the Catholic Church (formerly Southern Baptist), and your writings (including the Surprised by Truth testimony) have been a great inspiration to me, and VERY educational. Although I am not able to contribute monetarily at this moment, (I hope to in the future) I will commit to praying regularly for your apostolate. The email updates will be a great reminder for me to do that.


Catholic convert layman, 12-10-03


I highly appreciate your great efforts, amazing scholarship and enthusiasm to defend our Catholic faith against heresies. [You have a] keen and logical mind . . .


Catholic layman and professor of religious studies in the Philippines, 12-12-03


Thank you so much for your website, as I recently had to make a good deal of use of two of your articles Dialogue: Should the Pope Kiss The Koran?, and Are All Catholic Laymen and Non-Theologians Qualified to Freely and Frequently Criticize the Pope’s Opinions and Prudential Judgment?. Recently though, in speaking with my friends, I had come to notice an underlying tone of traditionalism in our conversations. That’s where you came in. Mention was made of the “Koran” incident, and some of these people were quite upset. I assured my friends that I firmly trusted the Holy Father and that if he did do such a thing – then I completely trusted his reasons for doing what he did. I was able to find your two articles that I had mentioned above, and WOW – did you explain things wonderfully! I immediately e-mailed the links to these articles on to my friends, anxiously anticipating their approval. Well, to say the least – that’s not what happened. Instead of debating them myself, I said that every one of their questions were clearly addressed and answered in those two articles. With this, some of these people became curt, challenging and extremely defensive. I was asked to no longer address them on these issues (ever), and to stop mentioning your name!


Mr. Armstrong, thank you for having taken the time to put up your website, and to including those articles within. I agreed vehemently with every single point that you made. Every one! Your reasoning is clear, concise and totally in line with the teachings of Mother Church. Thanks again for not making me feel like I was all alone in desiring to be lovingly obedient to the Holy Father. Call me deaf, dumb and blind, but for me – there’s no other way. In the near future, I will be offering whatever little bit that I can towards your support. You obviously deserve it!


Catholic layman, 1-7-04


Dave’s Biblical Defense of Catholicism web site and his friendship were among the factors that helped my inquiry and my eventual Tiber crossing. I can testify to his friendship with non-Catholic Christians personally; we built a good friendship when I was Anglican. He has always treated me with respect, never was he arrogant, triumphalistic or anything like that.


Catholic layman and convert from Anglicanism, 1-30-04
(writing on Patrick Madrid’s Envoy blog)


I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your site and your hard work. I just read all the attacks on your blog. You must be doing something right to touch so many nerves. Your website has been invaluable to my journey into the Church. I am to be received this April. Your website was the first Catholic apologetics material I ever read. Without sounding like I’m kissing up, thank you for being so detailed and deep. Many other apologists are too simplistic to get to the roots. You get to the root of error and axe it. Continue in your humble spirit and love for Christ and love for your separated brethren, it is so refreshing. I will support you by buying books and probably donations down the road.


Catholic layman and convert, 2-11-04


I wanted to send a short letter of thanks for the work that you do. I just became a Catholic at Easter Vigil, after growing up as a Pentecostal in the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, and much of my decision, and the information for that decision, was from your website. So thank you for, as you say, taking the stumbling blocks out of my way.


Catholic layman and convert, 4-18-04


Thanks for your great work. Your website was instrumental in my family’s conversion to the Church. We have begun sending your apostolate a monthly check.


Catholic layman and convert, 4-22-04


Your writing has helped me in many ways, more than I can count. Part of my own work here in my parish is to help people connect more fully with their Catholic faith through a renewal program and through RCIA. The information on your site has been of immeasurable value in those efforts. I am so encouraged when I see people embrace their faith more fully, and get excited about orthodox Catholicism. (GKC was right on the money!) You have helped me help them through your website and blog. If your books provide a similar measure of help (and I’m sure they will) I will gladly recommend them to others. It is a LOT of information! Sometimes your work is frustrating, I know. Please take this as a note of encouragement, for what it’s worth. You ARE making a difference.


Catholic layman, 4-26-04


Thanks for all of the good work you have done! I have found your website extremely helpful: both your own personal writings (which have taught me, not simply great apologetics arguments, but even better, how to conduct dialogues in the most charitable way possible), as well as the extensive links on your website . . . I have made your website my homepage. I wish I could be a monthly contributor to help you out; however, unfortunately, I am only able to make a one-time donation.


Catholic layman, 5-11-04


The following unsolicited comments were from 14 different people in a single thread on the Catholic Answers Forums (Discussion Boards); dated June 22-23, 2004:

 
“Has anyone ever heard of Dave Armstrong?”

He is a convert (reconciled?) to Catholicism and I found a brochure written by him at church this week on the 10 questions most asked of Catholics. His web site has 150 reasons why he is Catholic. Pretty good stuff.


“javelin35”


I don’t know anything about him, but I have visited his site. I agree that he has some great information, particularly for protestants converting, or thinking of converting, to Catholicism. He seems to have a pretty well formed faith. I wish that I was catechised as well as he seems to have been…


“OhioBob”


I learned a lot from his website.


“beng”


Yes a very nice guy . . . His website is chock full of helpful info!


“St Veronica”


I’ve learned a lot from his website. He’s very good in refuting non-Catholics; specially anti-Catholics like James White . . .


“ferdie”


Dave is Awesome! Super Links Page is a must!


“john654”


Dave Armstrong has an excellent website and has written two books that are very well done . . . I would recommend his books for anyone wanting to learn more about the faith. He has a good chapter on the Primacy of Peter.


MilesJesu


Dave Armstrong’s site is one of the best I have found on the internet. His site began my conversion process nine months ago, and here I am a Catholic. He uses a lot of Socratic logic in his arguments, and simply and clearly shows how sola scriptura is endlessly arbitrary and the need for ecclesial authority among many other discussions. His blog is also very good, but a little too much on James White at times. I would recommend this site to anyone interested in the Catholic Church.


“OfTheCross”


Dave Armstrong’s website was integral to my becoming RC. After attending a Catholic retreat with some of my Baptist friends, and attending a mass at a monastery, I became very interested in the Catholic Faith. I used his website to study things like Marian doctrines and the Eucharist – my main issues I had to deal with before attending RCIA. I began attending RCIA after studying the Catholic faith for two years. When I was beginning to attend RCIA, I told one of my dear Baptist friends. She cried, I cried, and she told me that when I was studying the Catholic faith to stick with the Bible. Dave helped me do just that with his website, and now I am a Catholic today!! If you haven’t checked his website – please do so!!


“journey”


Dave’s website has also helped me a great deal. His articles answered many of my questions and were instrumental in my conversion process from the Evangelical church. His Catholic knowledge, reason and logic are impeccable. A lot of converts like me have a great deal of admiration for him because he has taken so much time and made such a wonderful effort to spread the Truth of the Catholic Church. Many thanks and kudos Dave!!


“vangrosh”

A FIRST CLASS APOLOGIST!!!

“southernrich”


Here’s another vote for Dave Armstrong. Dave Armstrong’s award-winning website is the best on the Net! If all Catholics could know as much as Armstrong, and explain it as well as he does, not one would ever leave the Church and we could convert the world.


“Katholikos”


His books are in-depth and very readable. His website has many excellent articles.

Jeff Miller

Yes, Dave is awesome! I highly recommend his site and his books!

Quisp


I respect so much of what you do. Hope to meet you in person some day.


Dr. Ray Guarendi, nationally-known author, family expert, and lecturer, 8-27-04


Here is a donation that I’ve wanted to make for some time! Thank you for your wonderful work. I cannot express what an incredible source your website has been for me and my family. We are huge fans. My husband is a convert (the brother of a Baptist minister) and I am a cradle Catholic. Your work has been so essential to our family’s dometsic church! We truly appreciate the countless hours of work you spend defending the faith. Please keep up the good work!


Catholic laywoman, 4-18-05


Thanks so much for the tremendous work you do for the Church. You played a huge role in my leaving sedevacantism and extreme traditionalism. I was recommended to you by both Pete Vere and Jesse Romero.


Catholic layman, 5-2-05


Two threads on my blog (first | second), originally having to do with the average age of readers, provided an opportunity for commenters to say how they found my blog or website, and (as it turned out) how their conversion or recommitment to Catholicism was aided by my writings.


Various Catholics, May 2005


[Opinions on] Apologist Dave Armstrong? (thread on the Catholic Answers Apologetics Forum)


Various Catholics, June 2005


I am amazed at your output. It is due to converts like yourself and many others in the USA that I can realise even more fully that our Catholic Faith is eminently defensible and that we can hold our own in the intellectual world as well as be a tremendous consolation and help to those who are at the other end of the scale, namely those with a simple faith.


An Australian Catholic priest, 8-10-05


I think you are a tremendous apologist for our Faith. In fact, I find your knowledge to be encyclopedic. What a tremendous grace you have been given. I have remembered you several times at Mass. God bless you and your family.


A Catholic priest from Vermont, 11-22-05


Thank you so much for your Christian faithfulness. Having been raised in a protestant family and seeking God’s Will for me, I have been led to the Catholic Church. Your testimony is helping me and your writing is providing much reassurance. I wanted to say thank you for all your work, and may God continue to bless you richly.


Catholic layman, 12-18-05


I am a Catholic living with a Baptist husband and inlaws. I have had a terrible time in the last few years since I started going back to Mass . . . My kids are excited and are happily anticipating their first communion this spring and I am happy for them since this is a huge step. Anyhow, I’m so glad I found you. I will be ordering some books. Thank you so much again. I can’t wait until I have the tools to defend my faith and myself.


Catholic laywoman, 12-29-05


I don’t think it is an exaggeration to say that Biblical Evidence for Catholicism is, or was, the best apologetics site on the web. That is, measured not by the regard other apologists have for it but by its evangelistic impact.


The apologetical material is excellent and contains both original work and the work of others . . . Not only does Mr. Armstrong cover a vast number of topics, all of the material is well-written and interesting . . . valuable resources . . . Very large collection of good Catholic links . . . Wide range of theological topics covered . . .


Todd Pellman, 1-16-06


[he wrote the latest (positive, except for navigational criticisms) review of my blog at the Catholic Culture site (2nd portion above is from the review) ]


[We] sent out our first check for monthly support to your ministry yesterday. We intended to begin sending regular support awhile back . . . I’m sure there are others like us who likewise have good intentions but the distractions and the business of life keep them from following through. The regular updates are really good reminders for those on your list of how much your work has impacted their journey. There’s no better site for them to refer friends and family to when discussing the Catholic faith. I’m glad you include an update of the ministry’s financial situation. The updates are also helpful to remind us to keep your family covered in prayer. Thank you again for your work!


Catholic laywoman (revert), 1-19-06


I am just beginning my reading of your writings, but they seem to be exactly what I was looking for. Keep up the good work!


Catholic (?) layman, 1-22-06


I began doing research. And I ended up where I thought I’d never end up in a million years – I decided today to become a full-fledged Catholic. And your apologetics had a lot to do with this. Thanks so much for enlightening me. I’m pleasantly surprised that God’s grace has led me to the true church. I’m truly indebted to you.


Catholic laywoman (convert), 1-23-06


We are so grateful for your ministry and how the Lord has used the giftings He has given you to change our lives forever. We are now passing on the fruits of your work to our parish.


Catholic couple (convert and revert), 1-06


Thank you for your fine work on your websites. It is a blessing to the Church that there are souls like yourself that care enough to invest their lives in building His Kingdom.


Catholic layman, 2-1-06


Thank you so much for all your work. With your help, careful, prayerful, consideration of all the facts, and a whole lot of Grace, my wife and I will be going through the Rite of Election this coming March 5. Thanks again, and may God continue to bless you, your family, and your work.


Catholic layman (convert), 2-2-06


I have finally made the announcement publicly that my family and I have left Protestantism and are Catholic. Your ministry was (and is) instrumental in our growth in faith. Thank you.


Catholic layman (convert), 2-3-06


I just wanted to thank you for your work. I will be entering the Catholic Church this Easter Vigil (from a Protestant background.)


Catholic laywoman (convert), 3-6-06


I’m a sponsor in my parish’s RCIA program and the group has gotten into some pretty heated debates on Catholic teaching. I always refer folks to your blog and library of articles to read for themselves how Catholics defend the many myths of our faith.

Thanks for being such a great reference source. It is also nice to know that this is not a hostile website that I’m referring friends to. They are able to see that charity is possible even if they disagree with the Catholic position.
Thank YOU for a wonderful teaching tool for the faithful and perhaps soon to be faithful!!

Catholic laywoman, 3-8-06


I think your stuff is great; I’ve read A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, and it’s in the process of converting my Baptist girlfriend as we speak! Thanks so much for what you do.


Catholic layman, 3-10-06


It would be a great honor to have you attend my Ordination Mass. Your witness of the Catholic faith was an important part of my conversion. I will continue to thank God for the Spiritual direction you gave to me, and to pray that your ministry of apologetics will reach many inquiring souls.


George A Burns,  Catholic priest (former Anglican priest), 3-19-06


I’m just a big fan of yours. I have many of your books. They have helped me return to the Church. Great stuff!


Catholic layman (“revert”), 5-5-06


Thanks for the [electronic] books. I am really looking forward to reading them. I wanted to let you know that your website was very helpful to me in my journey to the church. I was received into the church last month after five years of intense study and prayer. I was an evangelical campus minister before resigning that position due to my increasing Catholic convictions.


Catholic layman (convert), 5-7-06


I am writing to thank you for all of your hard work. Your articles have played a very important role in my recent conversion from Reformed Presbyterian to Catholic. I was received into the Church this past week . . . My e-mail dialogues with my pastor resulted in me being more convinced of the Catholic positions -and all of these exchanges were sent to the elders and other members of the church . . . Please, keep up the great work. It is probably hard for you to imagine just how important your role is in the Church.

Sincerely and with gratitude, [name]

Catholic layman (convert), 5-12-06


I recently was received into full communion with the Catholic Church after being an evangelical Protestant all my life, and your blog and apologetics writings were essential to me during the period in which I was examining the Church’s teachings. Your site, more than any other resource, had clear, understandable defenses for Catholic doctrine and practices. In particular, you deserve the credit for my ultimate decision to join the Catholic Church rather than the Orthodox Church.


Catholic layman (convert), 6-26-06


This brief note is just to let you know that my wife and myself do appreciate A LOT your apologetics ministry, and we pray for you and your family. It is very clear that many times you have to cover yourself with supernatural grace to be able to deal with the unfortunate affairs that explode in the net. Just know that many, many people really love you and no matter what we stand by your side. God always bless you.


Catholic couple, 8-10-06


Very nice work. First time seeing your work. I am a Catholic and proud of it. I found your information to further edify my faith. Thanks for the info.


Catholic laywoman, 8-24-06


Keep up the good work! I was a campus minister for eight years before being received into the Church in April. Your website had a big influence in my coming to see the truth of the Catholic Church. May our gracious God continue to bless your apostolate.


Catholic layman (convert), 9-2-06


I love your books, love your site, love everything you do. God bless you in your work. I’m very grateful for all you’ve done, and for all you make available. If someone pitches a hard question at me, I go first to your site. Then I send the questioner directly to the page that best answers the question. I know it’s going to be on your site. I pray your tribe may prosper.


Mike Aquilina, Catholic apologist; author of The Mass of the Early Christians and The Fathers of the Church: An Introduction to the First Christian Teachers, 9-4-06


I’m a big fan of yours. Keep up the wonderful work.


Catholic layman (convert), 9-5-06


I am currently going to RCIA and renewing my faith in the Catholic Church. I was raised Catholic but have been away for more years than I care to admit. I came across your website in the process of doing some research on questions I had and it has truly been a blessing. I now spend each day eating lunch at my desk just so I can visit your website and learn more about the faith I choose. And I am happy to say, thanks to God’s direction toward you to help me, it becomes stronger each day. I just wanted to thank you for all your work.


Catholic layman (“revert”), 9-20-06


Your apologetics ministry has been extremely influential to me over the past three years or so. Your irenic presentation coupled with your voluminous knowledge played no small part in my decision to convert to Catholicism from my former strongly Calvinist beliefs. Your works have helped me to better articulate the glorious truths of our holy Catholic faith.


Catholic layman (convert), 9-21-06


God bless you and your ministry. It was invaluable in helping me start an apologetics program at [my church].


Catholic layman 10-7-06


I’ve benefited greatly from many of your materials. You’ve done a great job of reclaiming the Scriptures as evidence for Catholicism. I’d be very glad to do what I can to contribute to your efforts. Please let me know where you think I might be of most use.


Dr. Robert C. Koons, Professor of Philosophy and Convert from Lutheranism, 5-23-07


I just want you to know how much your website has helped me understand the Catholic faith! I was Protestant, Pentecostal to be exact, so the transition into the CC was major!! Your biblical proofs have helped ground me in my faith. Anyways, thanks again for what you’re doing! Please continue to keep up the good work Dave!!

Catholic laywoman, 5-5-08

Thank you so much for your website. I’ve been using it quite a bit lately in a discussion I’m having with Protestants. I also downloaded your books. They’re great and an invaluable aid. Keep up the good work. May God richly bless you!!!!!


Catholic laywoman, 6-7-08


Thanks for the excellent books and the priceless work you do – we all owe people like you a huge debt. If our children are to be knowledgeable and strong in their faith and convictions it is in no small part due to the tireless dedication of people like yourself.


Catholic layman, 7-29-08


Thanks a lot for your website. Because of your work, the work of Peter Kreeft, and other Catholic apologists I am currently in the process of conversion from Baptist to Catholicism. My first RCIA class was last week.


Catholic layman, 10-8-08


. . . I recommended one of Dave Armstrong‘s books, saying that his blog was instrumental in bringing me into the Church.

Gregory Watson, Facebook, 6-9-13

As always, you prefer to find common ground, the things where Christians agree as much as you can, while acknowledging that there are differences and not shying away from those differences. That is is why several years of talking with you, reading your posts on your blog and forum, and your conduct was a factor in my crossing the Tiber. 

Bret Bellamy, former Anglican, Facebook, 6-12-13


Back in the late 90’s I used to stay up 1/2 the night reading through his website…I learned so much about my faith. His website was my first introduction to apologetics. 


Anonymous Catholic, Facebook,  6-15-13


I’ve found your work absolutely incredible. Specifically your method of using Protestant sources, commentaries and historians to prove the truth of the Catholic view and interpretation.  The reason your articles and essays are so incredibly useful is because you have synthesized all the available data and information into a very ordered and succinct form. In other words you have done all the intense work and to study an issue I just need to read your essay and you have brilliantly provided all the data, summarized the evidence and explained the Catholic truth. 


Jeremy Pinto, personal letter, 6-16-13


I will be received into the Catholic Church on June 29. Your blog, your posts here [Facebook], have helped me find my way. Thanks.


Charles Walter, former Methodist pastor, personal letter, 6-16-13


Your writings helped bring me home.


Dave you were key to my initial seeking and conversion.

Nicole  DeMille, Facebook, 6-27-13 and 11-18-13


You, Patrick Madrid and Dr. Hahn are my three “go to” Catholic apologists. I know I might get some nonsense mixed in with the truth from other folks, but not the case from you three gentlemen. You are always orthodox and charitable. Thank you for your great work and may God bless you.


Terence Stanton, Facebook, 6-30-13 


A National Catholic Register article about your conversion inspired me to send you a long overdue thank you for your apologetics apostolate. As a high school agnostic searching for the truth, your website was decisive in my decision to be baptized, confirmed and receive first Holy Communion the Easter Vigil of 2003. Ten years later, I have gained a degree from Christendom College, worked for LifeSiteNews.com, become a professed religious with the Legion of Christ and am currently studying in Rome for the priesthood. From the bottom of my heart, I thank you for an apostolate that truly changed my life. Please let me know if you ever find yourself in the Eternal City, so that I might thank you in person.

Br. Michael Baggot, LC, letter of 7-2-13

Back when it was just a website, Dave’s work was instrumental in my conversion.


Laura Ostrowski, Facebook, 7-4-13 


Mr. Armstrong’s work was instrumental in keeping me Catholic back in 1997 when I had a “crisis of faith”.  


Edward Martin Curtis, Facebook, 7-9-13 


Dave, I have almost all your books on my Kindle.  Thank you for all your hard work. Your website is invaluable. It’s one of my first destinations every day. 


Paul DiGuglielmo, Facebook, 7-11-13  


Thank you for defending our Church and for enlightening us in the teachings of the Catholic Church. You truly inspired a lot of Filipino apologists here in the Philippines.


Marc Gamil, Facebook message, 7-30-13


Thanks for all the wonderful work you do here on Facebook. You have helped me grow and understand my faith so much better. 

Lill Goodwill,  Facebook message, 7-30-13

Thank you for all that you do every day for our Church. You are an inspiration. 


John C. Curtis,  Facebook message, 7-30-13


I meant to mention how much good your Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths has done me. Gave me some much-needed encouragement and support in talking to non-Catholics/fallen-away Catholics/atheists. Thank you for your work!

William Brandon, Facebook, 8-2-13

A Biblical Defense of Catholicism is one of the best books I have the privilege to own and I have bought many copies that I gave away to family and friends. It kind of started me on my journey to becoming a “learned” Catholic. Before that I was just happy to be a cradle Catholic who had no clue when it came to defending my faith. Thank You Dave. You have participated in changing my life, the lives of my relatives and friends. May God continue to inspire you and May He bless you always! 

Michelle Muabana, 8-6-13

I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that Dave Armstrong is the hardest working Catholic apologist I know and barely scrapes by, . . . supporting his wife and many children. Seriously, he is an inspiration to me. Many excellent Catholic publishers have published his books (including Catholic Answers), but as I can attest, book royalties do not pay very much!

Devin Rose, Facebook, 8-30-13 


Dave has done lots of work that other apologists haven’t: see his work Pillars of Sola Scriptura for just one example. But his whole style of providing wonderful popular level reference material is a niche that wouldn’t be filled if he didn’t take the time to do so. His work is valuable and should be respected . . . [his] work is much appreciated.


L. Niall Quinn, Facebook, 9-4-13


Dave Armstrong is a big help to me in my journey of discovery and understanding of my Catholic faith; hence, I would like him to stay as an apologist, whether full-time or part-time, that is his call. But to me, he is a big help and the Church is blessed to have him.


Floro Fortunato Salvador, Facebook, 9-4-13 


Thank you for all you do in the world of apologetics. I first encountered your website when I was in college in the late 90’s, I referred to it all through seminary, and I’ve used your books and articles during these 8 years of my priesthood. 


Fr. Christian Johnston, Letter of 9-6-13


Just a note to say thank you for all you do. I hope I can give more in the future, to help support you. Along with my two parishes, I am the Catholic chaplain at the local university, where so many students are searching and questioning. I refer to your sincere and excellent work, again and again. Thank you, good sir!

Fr. David Young, Letter of 9-8-13

My donation is a small token of appreciation for your tireless commitment to the evangelization of a very broken and morally confused world. Your work is unequaled in the Catholic apologetic world. My life is so radically different since I began in earnest to learn about the faith I received from my parents.

Don’t stop your quest.

Michael Alvey, Letter of 9-12-13


I just recently discovered your website. It is awesome!  Can’t wait to read more; especially some of your books. Keep up the good work!


Rachel Eichhold, Letter of 9-13-13


I just ordered next big portion (I have almost all) of your excellent apologetic books. I will try to support by money once a year. One of my friend priest served a mass for you and your work. You can’t imagine how you helped me to find right orientation in theology. I’m very thankful to God for your great work. Please don’t stop! God bless your work!!!

Pavol Hučko from Slovakia, Letter of 9-14-13


No amount of money can pay you for the good you do for our beloved Catholic Church. I wish I were a rich person, because your check would have many more zeros.

Ruth Reed, Letter of 9-15-13

I have learned so much reading your books. Thank you!

David Wurst, Letter of 9-15-13

I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that Dave Armstrong’s work has been instrumental in both online and offline apologetic for Catholics. It has helped my formation incredibly and his essays are more akin to scholarly work than they are just simple blog posts. Since I benefit from his work daily, both from his websites and his books, I will be making a contribution. Thanks Dave!

Daniel Maldonado, Facebook, 9-27-13

Thank you, Dave, for all your wonderful work.  It has benefited me much over the years, yet I had never bought a book until last week (Pillars of Sola Scriptura.)


Tom Dieringer, letter of 10-7-13

I just wanted to shoot you an email to thank you for your blog.  I’ve followed it for years.  In fact, it did play a part in my conversion process, along with other apologist web sites and resources.  Having utilized a source like this and having picked your digital brain for that amount of time I felt obligated to let you know I appreciate you, your blog, and definitely your books.  I have a few of them and they have been very useful.  I was formerly an evangelical Protestant who did mission work and teaching ministry.  I went to Bible college and seminary, so I continue to reevaluate the theological thoughts spinning around in my head in an attempt to be Catholic through and through. Again, thank you, sir.  May the Lord bless you and keep you.  I hope to read more of your thoughts and research for a very long time.  

William Missavage, e-mail of 11-22-13

That website helped in my conversion to the Catholic Faith.


Rachel Dobbs, Facebook comment, after I posted a March 2000 screen shot of my old website, 11-25-13 


That was the site (1997 version) that I found when I was first researching the Church. It played a major part in my education, my crossing of the Tiber, etc.


Bret Bellamy, same thread, 11-25-13


I remember the old site; it was an important resource when I was getting into apologetics around 1997, and really wrestling with the “hard teachings” of the Church for the first time. I was raised Catholic, but like many of my generation, my catechesis was horrible. I count your site as a large reason I’m still Catholic.


Edward Martin Curtis,  same thread, 11-25-13


Love that old website, always have, always will because of the special role it played in my conversion to a passionate Catholicism.

Nick Hardesty, same thread, 11-25-13

I just bought and finished reading your Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries, and wanted to let you know that it’s a phenomenal work. I was raised in that mindset, and within the last year, Our Lord has helped me see how sectarian and arrogant it really is. Your book finished off a number of questions that had been bugging me. God bless you and you work! It’s deeply appreciated.


Anonymous [due to his family situation], Facebook message, 12-1-13


I am a former Evangelical (and a former fan of James White) who came into the Catholic Church this past year. Thanks for all your writings – they were very helpful to me and my wife on our journey. God bless!


William Sawyer, PayPal message, 12-24-13

Many thanks for your generosity and important ministry. One whole shelf of my library is dedicated to you, as reference texts on so many important issues within Catholicism.  Because I teach the Adult Bible Study at my church, and because I have been pushing to have a New Evangelization Committee formed at my church, I want to have as much background literature as I need to address the questions of nominal Catholics, fallen-away Catholics, and non-Catholics.  The fire that burns within me was kindled years ago after reading your early texts, so I am internally and eternally grateful for that. You and John Martignoni are my favorites. 

Dick Neves, e-mail,  12-28-13

Dave, I LOVE your blog and read it often! You were the first place I found when I started researching topics almost 15 years ago when I had to defend my faith and couldn’t. You have helped me to grow and learn and I will be eternally grateful!!! Very glad you are still going strong!!!  

Lisa Marie Kipp, Facebook, 1-23-14

Dave Armstrong is one of the best lay Catholic writers around. He knew the late Fr. Hardon S.J (perhaps a candidate for beatification) and was deeply inspired by him. He can be trusted.

Fr. John Abberton, recommending my book, Pope Francis Explained, on his site, Stella Maris, 1-23-14


I just wanted to thank you for your blog and its predecessor. Biblical Evidence for Catholicism was instrumental in helping me come back to the Church after a nine-year absence. Without you, I might not still be Catholic today.

Patrick M. Hayes, Facebook, 2-2-14

I am not only indebted to your site and ability to explain the faith to non-Catholics of multiple different worldviews but also I must say that I am blessed by the gift of the mind God has gifted you with. I have always enjoyed the angles and slants that you have seen in scripture and tradition. I see some early church father-esque musings in your ability to creatively utilize the scriptures to serve the Lord in truth! I salute you brother!

James D. Adam Broxson, Facebook, 2-2-14 

Dave Armstrong: 10 years blogging. Gregory Watson, 10 years Catholic this Easter. Coincidence? Nope!

Gregory Watson, Facebook, 2-2-14

Just wanted to let you know I’m donating a bit of money, and that I appreciate you, your work, and the years of blessing God has given me through it. I apologise I don’t donate more often, I really need to make a bigger habit of it. God bless you!

Liam Quinn, Facebook message, 2-12-14


Thanks for all the great work you do for the faith, Dave. It’s been of great value to me, and now my family!

Tom Dieringer, PayPal message, 2-2-14 [referring to an article I wrote, venturing into writing apologetics for children]

Thank you for your ministry. Your apologetics have played a big role in helping me understand the faith better and have helped keep me in the Catholic Church.  I own several of your books and your blog is great! Keep up the good work! 

Daniel Rodrigues, Facebook message, 5-8-14

My husband and I are converts and you have been and are very helpful to us in knowing, living, and defending our faith. God bless you and yours, and your apostolate.


Beverly Ipson, Facebook, 5-13-14 

Thanks for all your effort to demonstrate the biblical nature of Catholicism. Your book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, was the first book I read when I had come to the conclusion I needed to enter the Church. Thank you for all you have done to dispel the anti-Catholic myths. God bless you in all your efforts.

Wesley Vincent, Seton Magazine website, 5-31-14

Our conversations online were instrumental in my conversion into the Roman Catholic Church! Thanks for being such an amazing apologist Dave.

Kenny Winsmann Jr., e-mail, 6-13-14

I read with delight an article you presented a few weeks back about our Blessed Mother and her Ever-Virgin status. It touched upon the so-called “siblings” of Jesus. It was the most succinct article I had ever read on the matter and I was cheering you as I read it. May God’s richest blessings continue to be showered upon you and your family. You are a grace to us who desire to know the Lord more closely in His Holy Church.


Pierre Masse, Facebook message, 6-24-14


In February, I was received into full communion with the Church (having been a Methodist), and your writings were extremely helpful along the way. You have helped me a great deal.

Reuben Slife, e-mail, 7-1-14 

God bless you and all your excellent work! The work you have done has changed the world for many, many people.

Greg Oatis, e-mail, 7-14-14

Dave’s books were some of the first that I encountered as an early convert. I have them all right here next to me, where I reference them frequently. They have saved me big time on numerous occasions. I’m just amazed that he has produced so many.

I so appreciate all that you do in educating others on their Catholic faith. I know that I have shared this publicly about your work, but I will say [it] again. Your books have helped me to better understand my faith and to inspire others to embrace their faith boldly.

Diane McKelva,  on her Facebook page, 7-17-14 and Facebook PM, 1-3-15

Dave Armstrong is a great apologist for breaking Catholic doctrine/teaching down in a way that’s fairly easy for anyone to understand.  

Tiff Michelle Comiskey, on her Facebook page, 7-30-14


I love reading your books: practical and easy to read. I consider you an important factor in my conversion.

Carla Schultz, private message, 11-23-14

I have a number of Dave Armstrong’s printed books and 20+ electronic books and find them invaluable in helping me gain further understanding of theological issues, Church history, and down-in-the-trenches apologetics with fair-minded Protestants, and more amazingly, Protestant anti-Catholics that Dave wisely and charitably handles. I fully support Dave’s work and wish him continued success. Fight on Big Dave!!


Mark Byrne, Facebook, 12-4-14 

Your writings played an important role in my conversion to the Catholic faith in an overtly secular country [Germany].  

Anthony Ruijtenbeek, Facebook, 12-31-14

Dave, there are so many out here that read your work and admire the talent God has given you for apologetics and who never write their appreciation to you. I’ll start the new year out with my gratitude for your spiritual inspiration through the years. You are bright and so much of what you write thrills me because it gives me biblical and logical and brilliant answers. Thank you so much Dave. And may this year bring you peace and joy and even more spiritual guidance so that you may guide others. I used to be a Seventh-day Adventist. Some of your writings have helped me so much.

Teresa Beem, Facebook, 1-1-15 [she gave her conversion story on The Journey Home in Oct. or Nov. 2008]

The full body of your life’s work  is a testament of the Holy Spirit working through you. Well done God’s good and faithful servant.  

Gary Mitchell, Facebook, 1-6-15

Know that I appreciate your ministry and all that you do for Christ and the Church.

Bill Peper, Facebook, 1-6-15 

God bless you, Dave. You’re a good Catholic man, articulate, intelligent and irenic, and do fine work defending the faith. Don’t let anyone discourage you from that. You’re an inspiration!

Chris Harvey, Facebook, 1-6-15 

I think your posts are always full of common sense (something many people are missing) and your Catholicism posts on your blog were instrumental in our conversion three years ago. So keep up the good work as you’re able!

Kristi Dahl Anderson, Facebook, 1-7-15

Your work has been monumental in my journey home! I share (and continue to share) your articles, website and books to friends, family and acquaintances. Your contribution to the world of apologetics has been immeasurable…thank you for all you have done and continue to do.

Dave’s website is awesome. I refer to it all the time. He is consistent and thorough. I can’t count the times his work has been invaluable in my discussions with others regarding Catholicism – or for that matter – Protestantism. Couldn’t engage as effectively without you Dave. You are a blessing to us worker bees!
 

Michele Verret-Ayala, Facebook, 1-9-15 and 1-28-15

Keep up the amazing good work you do. It is so appreciated by so many.

Teresa Moore, Facebook, 1-9-15

Biblical [Defense of Catholicism] was one of the key books that pushed me along during my conversion. I was so “biblically” skeptical of ever becoming Catholic that no “hack” would have possibly convinced me.

Scott Eric Alt, Facebook, 1-9-15

I am really grateful for your apologetic ministry and the service that you have done for us Catholics. I have bought most of your books in paper and in Kindle.

Rodney Evangelista, Facebook PM, 1-10-15 

Great book [The Catholic Verses]! I loved every page and it helped me to find the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church.


Luke Westman, Facebook, 1-22-15

As always, thank you for your work…I continue to recommend you for RCIA, to my friends and anyone who would listen…You are balanced, fair, reasonable and you love the church.


Christophe Maguet, Facebook, 1-28-15 

I grew up Catholic, went to a Catholic grade school and a Catholic high school. I learned TONS from EWTN, Catholic Answers and apologists like Dave Armstrong. Somehow I stumbled on an apologetics and ecumenism mail list on cin.org were Dave was the owner/moderator emeritus at the time [late 90s]. The exchanges whetted my appetite for apologetics and engaging in dialogue with those of other faiths. I think that was a real blessing for me as it made me read and listen, dig and learn to try and find answers to questions, look into history, logic and philosophy among other things. From that site I found the old Biblical Evidence For Catholicism site. It was like another treasure trove for me. I spent days and weeks turning into months reading through Dave’s articles and dialogues. They really taught me a lot, not only of all of the aforementioned, much of which I have never found elsewhere, but also for how to engage in constructive dialogue with others, perhaps even if they are very hostile at first. I am very grateful for all of the apologists, and especially for you and your efforts Dave, as you were really the first encounter I had with a real live apologist for the faith, and someone who had been on such fire that you spent so much of your time doing and sharing it with the world, even as you were working a separate full time job at the time. Anyway, thanks again for all you do and have done. I’m sure there are many many others who have been blessed by your apostolate but haven’t been given the opportunity to thank you personally, so I’ll try and kinda sorta do that for them as well. Thank you from all of us.

Jeff Buchholz, Facebook, 2-2-15

I very much appreciate all your efforts and I am regularly enriched by them.Dave, I think you are masterful both at what you do as well as the intelligent and charitable way you do it. Keep strong, my friend! Dave is a master apologist, one of the new wave of converts that has one of the best websites, as well as numerous good books, on matters of the faith. He is also a wonderfully reasonable and thoughtful man. Dave’s website is one the most comprehensive resources. Really good stuff. His Biblical Defense of Catholicism is a great apologetics book and his works on Newman are impressive as well.

Dr. Andrew Holt, professor of history at Florida State College (Jacksonville), Facebook PMs, 2-11-15 and 3-15-15, and Facebook comment, 2-13-15

Coming from a Fundamentalist Protestant background I need to hear and read Armstrong thoroughly and often. I used to be taken in by [James] White’s hyped-up words, and it has taken me a while to get de-brainwashed from his attacks. It actually makes me trust the Catholic position when they are talking a bit confidently (and thankfully not triumphalistically) about White being wrong. If anything, we need more exegetically-inclined Catholics addressing White, not less. The false triumphalism of White is exceedingly deceptive. Thankfully now (mostly due to Armstrong) I am able to watch White debates and see through the overblown rhetoric and triumphalism.

Justin Beers, Facebook, 2-13-15

I am a reader of your books. I am one of those people who knows what they believe but can’t express it. I like your books because they give me a way to express myself.

Gloria Wakuluk, Facebook PM, 2-16-15  

Thank you for your tireless work defending the True Faith.

Dr. Dennis Bonnette, Catholic philosophy professor and author, e-mail, 2-26-15 

I will be received into the Church at Saturday’s Easter Vigil Mass. Thanks for helping me to understand and defend Catholic teaching.

Matthew Clarke, e-mail, 3-31-15 

Hope you remember the person who wrote His Dogma exams about three years ago with the help of your write up on the Papacy? Am still very grateful. You made me score the highest mark on that. God bless.

Fr. Anacletus Agbunkwu (Nigeria) Facebook PM, 4-5-15 

[He had written in a Facebook PM on 30 May 2011, before becoming a deacon: “you are indeed a great son of the church. I am a seminarian in Nigeria. I have exams tomorrow on [the] papacy and I just saw your 50 NT proofs of Petrine Primacy. It is really rich, educating and inspiring.”]


Your website back in the day was the main thing that brought me back to the Catholic Church. Got a lot of your books only because of your site. A big thank you [for] all you do.


Dean Soto, Facebook, 4-9-15

Dave Armstrong was instrumental in my return home to the Church. I’m thankful for that.

Robert LeBlanc, Facebook, 5-8-15

First time posting a comment on your blog, but I’ve been reading it since last summer . . . I would constantly read many of your posts on lunch breaks, and you truly helped me understand my faith more. So thank you! This is a great article, and was very timely as I’ve been really trying to understand infant baptism and the salvific nature of baptism even more. Thanks, you’ve helped inspire me to do more to give witness to that hope that I hold so dear!

Nick Angela, on my blog, 5-8-15

I’ve found your books to be very helpful in defending and explaining the Catholic faith. This new book of yours [Proving the Bible is Catholic] covers a wide range of topics and discussions; can’t wait to get ahold of it.


Josh Gonzalez, Facebook, 5-20-15 

It is an honor, sir. I have been a fan of your works for years. It was very instrumental for me on my journey to cross the Tiber. Thank you for all of the work that you do.

Dave is a wonderful author. When making my journey to the Catholic Church, I found his works extremely informative and helpful in answering many questions that I had about the Catholic Church as well as dispelling any of my preconceived notions about what the Church actually teaches and believes.

Carlus Henry, LinkedIn message and recommendation, 5-26-15 

Dave is basically the reason why I am the knowledgeable and passionate Catholic I am today. When I first decided in college to learn more about my Catholic faith, I read all of the tracts at Catholic Answers … but then I needed more. I needed to move beyond the basics. Dave was the only one who had what I needed. I pored over his various dialogues and debates and found the answers to even the most obscure questions. His work showed me that there really is an answer to every conceivable question of and objection to the Catholic faith. That was a revelation for me, and it is one I will never forget. My own apologetical style (giving point-by-point rebuttals, relying heavily on Scripture, and being as thorough as possible) is influenced very heavily by his, and to this day I continue to learn and grow a great deal through his work explaining and defending the Catholic faith.

Nicholas Hardesty, DRE and apologist, LinkedIn Recommendation, 5-28-15

Keep doing what you’re doing. Before I was Catholic (entered in April 2007) I hated your site… so much logical truth that I couldn’t argue with — but it helped me convert eventually… so, thanks for being out there!  

Amber Geyer Diehl, Facebook, 5-29-15


Thanks for all the important work you do defending and explaining the faith. [I’m] especially grateful for your defense of Pope Francis against his reactionary detractors.

Marcellino D’Ambrosio, Ph.D., Catholic apologist, LinkedIn, 6-5-15

Dave is one of the best Catholic apologists I have encountered.

Fr. John Abberton, on his Facebook page, 6-5-15

Thank you for helping me into coming back to the Faith.


Guadalupe Antonio Loera, Facebook, 6-13-15

I’ve been impressed with the scholarly and edifying apologetic work of Dave Armstrong for many years and have a number of his excellent books in my library. Here is another example of his rational, logical defense of authentic Catholic faith.

Fr. Rick Holy, Facebook, 6-20-15

A fine piece of apologetics by Dave Armstrong, who is an old pro at explaining Catholic teaching. Christopher Ferrara is also gifted–at whining and complaining about Pope Francis, which is why Armstrong needed to put him in his place.

Fr. Angel Sotelo, Facebook, 6-20-15

I just want you to know Dave that last week I returned to the Catholic faith after leaving 30 years ago. I had purchased a few of your other books including [A] Biblical [Defense of] Catholicism and [100 Biblical Arguments Against] Sola Scriptura and Biblical Catholic Apologetics, which I directly attribute to my return to the Church. When I realized I didn’t have to “check out” intellectually to accept the Catholic Church, it changed me. Thank you for what you did for my life in Christ.

Your writing style and intellectual grasp of complex theological concepts were the direct impetus for me to come back to Rome after 30 years as an adherent to Sola Scriptura.

Sean Bossie, Facebook message, 7-10-15 / Facebook comment, 7-12-15

God bless your work Dave. You helped me on the way from Protestantism to Holy Mother Church and God has used you to protect me from falling over to the radtrad webs.

Ignatius Lundström, Facebook, 7-11-15 

Your work initially got me questioning my own beliefs about my faith as a Protestant (an evangelical Anglo-Catholic). I’m now at a stage where the ducks are virtually all lined up in a row and I am wanting to convert officially. I pray that Our Lord and Our Lady will continue to bless this apostolate of yours and that many more will be impacted as I have been to “come home to Rome”.

Brandon Fang, e-mail, 7-13-15

I have found ALL of your books super helpful and they have made me the apologist I am today. Regardless of sales and exposure, you are a successful soldier of the church militant and I am proud to be on the same team you are. If every Catholic put in a fraction of what you do into understanding their faith, we would all be saints. You are a treasure Dave and your work is PRICELESS!

Paul Thomas, Facebook, 7-16-15

[Your] writings were instrumental to our coming home.

Rachel [and Chris] McCluskey, personal letter of 7-20-15

Your blog was key in my conversion- and that of my whole family! You may not know the full effect you have had until heaven. 

Kristi Dahl Anderson, Facebook, 7-30-15

If it wasn’t for your website and my reading through your comments, I’d be lost in defending and understanding my faith! I’ve been able to not only shut down many critics I run into, but I’ve been able to find strength in participating in the comments sections of other apologetic websites. 

Mark T., personal letter of 8-5-15

Let me take advantage of this message to thank you for your work and apostolate, especially to the Protestants. Your writings were very helpful when I struggled with the apparent contradictions between Lutheranism and the Fathers, and prompted my break with the Reformation.

Alexandre Gallot, Facebook message, 9-17-15

Count my husband and me among the converts helped and convinced by your books [formerly Baptist]. Oh and our four children — count them. Our whole household converted. 

Carol Wiggins Malone, Facebook, 12-3-15

You have been an inspiration and blessing in my life. You were the one that knocked down my final objections regarding Marian doctrines allowing me to be confirmed 12 years ago.

Tim Cooper, Facebook, 12-6-15

You were one of the primary sources responsible for my conversion.

Amy Hawley, Facebook, 12-6-15

I am from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I grew up in an Adventist family, but I have been through a conversion to Catholicism process the last two years. Your testimony and Mr Scott Hahn’s testimony have been crucial to me. Thanks for your ministry. God bless you!

Silvia Emilia Cunha, Facebook message, 12-12-15

Yours was the first Catholic apologetics website I ever read, in 1995. I think I found it looking for various interpretations of theistic evolution, but I kept poking around, and when I found the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, I thought, “What?!” As an Evangelical in the American South, it was the first I’d heard of it, and I thought the idea of Mary being sinless was superfluous at best. But I was generally intrigued by the whole site, and so would go back from time to time to read. I slowly started reading other Catholic sites as well because of their great general Christian apologetics, but I was happy in my PCA church, my paradigm favored Protestantism, and the Church seemed chaotic to me, so I left it at that.

[In 2011 I] started investigating Catholic apologetics seriously online (including your site). It was finally the conviction that they early Church was Catholic that convinced me, and everything else poured in with that. I was confirmed this Easter. I still remember that Biblical Evidence was the first place I ever read what Catholics really believe and where I read intelligent debates between Catholics and Protestants. It planted a seed that took about twenty years to sprout, but it finally did! So, if you want to be encouraged, please do!

LauraA, comment on my blog, 1-9-16

I wouldn’t be Catholic if it weren’t for Dave making me curious about Catholicism! Thanks Dave! I’ve been home since 1996, along with my husband and lots of friends that could really be credited to Dave!

Barb Holmes, Facebook, 2-8-16

A big thank you because your book on sola Scriptura was one of the first I bought, and helped me out tons when coming back to the faith after studying with Jehovah’s Witnesses, and helped me defend against people who hold that view. Thank you for your work. You’re a true apologist!

Fabian Torres, Facebook, 3-13-16

I just want to give you a shoutout and say you are one of the best apologists out there Dave! I have loved reading some of your articles recently, especially your awesome defenses of Our Lady. You actually “saved” me from the radical Catholic reactionaries. I had practically been driven to the brink of despair months back (I’m being received into the Church this Easter). They confused me so much, and only your work really convinced me they were wrong.

Dylan Prince, Facebook, 3-16-16

I count myself as one of the many people who gained a lot (a lot!) from your work and dedication. Rest assured, myself and many others are better for your work.

Mateus de Castro, Facebook, 3-31-16

You are the reason I got into Apologetics and you are my hero. I have learned so much from your comments. I wish I had someone like you to learn from when I was a teen and maybe I wouldn’t have spent time away from the Church.

Marie Gaskill McRoberts, Facebook, 3-31-16

You have been instrumental in my return to Catholicism and in keeping my faith strong as I continue in ministry.

Carlos, Zamora, Facebook, 3-31-16

A lot of people don’t care about apologetics until someone or something challenges their faith–then they need carefully, thoughtfully written apologetics. That’s what you have provided. You have written clearly and understandably and people such as myself have loved your work.

Charles Walter, Facebook, 3-31-16

I’ve found your writings both helpful and interesting since I was a teenager.

Lauren Marajade Ellis, Facebook, 3-31-16

I’m not quite 30 years old (so I’m still very new to the game), but apologetics is the reason I have become stronger in my faith, the reason I now help run a Catholic radio station, the reason I just started a radio show. Between you, Devin Rose, Trent Horn, Tim StaplesPatrick Coffin,  Fr. Mitch Pacwa, and Dr. Peter Kreeft…You guys have helped me tremendously. I can’t articulate the faith anywhere close to you gentlemen but you guys provide an example I have followed and am grateful for.

Adam Minihan, Facebook, 3-31-16

Dave, your stuff was instrumental in my own conversion. I was a Protestant minister for about 12 years and came into the Church in 2007 along with my family.

Keith Johnson, Facebook, 3-31-16

I want to thank you because you have been a great instrument of God for many Catholics and non-Catholics. From you I have learned many things, . . . to deepen my faith. I’m still a beginner apologist who constantly learns from experienced apologists like you. My prayers with you. A hug from Venezuela.

Richbell Melendez, Facebook, 3-31-16

Dave, your work has been helpful in helping me come into the Catholic Church. Apologetics is no doubt one of the most important ministries of the Church — where would any of us be without it?

Patrick Palmer, Facebook, 3-31-16

Your sacrifice has been immeasurable. We all admire you for what you’ve done.

SD Boyd, Facebook, 3-31-16 

Your writings have helped me grow so much more in knowledge of my faith, and I’ve taken some cues from you when writing my own blog posts.

Nick LaBanca, 3-31-16

I often find your essays helpful and I appreciate your effort to explain and defend Catholic teaching.

Mark Brumley, CEO of Ignatius Press, correspondence, 4-4-16.

Love the Catholic Church with all my heart and Mr Armstrong has a great part in that through his books.

Maggie Peterson, Facebook, 5-26-16

Your writings were very instrumental in helping my wife and I come back to the Catholic Church. Since then we have brought others to the Catholic Church. Keep up the good work.

Mike Stackhouse, Facebook, 5-29-16

Your old site and A Biblical Defense of Catholicism were both very helpful in my conversion five years ago, and I’m grateful for the work that you do.

Kevin Hurst, Facebook, 5-31-16

Your work, in books and articles, has greatly helped me, and still does. A great work for Holy Mother Church!

Mateus de Castro, Facebook, 6-1-16

Thank you for all the work and studying you do. I have many of your books and I learn by reading them.

Jane D. Pusi, Facebook, 6-1-16

It was thanks to the American apologists (Scott Hahn, Peter Kreeft, Marcus Grodi and the CHN, not to mention Dave Armstrong and Bishop Barron) that I found the way of Catholicism. I was a fervent Protestant.

Théodore, a French Catholic (comment originally in French on a French forum), 7-9-16

Dave Armstrong’s work was probably, after grace, the single biggest factor in my conversion to Catholicism.

Keith Rickert, Jr., Facebook, 8-18-16

Dave, I want to  thank you for saving my soul. I became a sedevacantist [one who denies the validity of the sitting pope] last year and after reading your syllabus of traditionalist errors I saw my error and realized, to my delight, that I was wrong.

Anonymous, Patheos, 8-24-16

I read your story in Surprised by Truth and that book was instrumental to my growth in the faith.

Daniel Bernardo, Facebook, 9-25-16

You and several other convert authors were immensely helpful with my own conversion in my late fifties. Your Biblical Defense of Catholicism was the very first book read, reread and filled with personal observations in the margins. Thank you for your witness.

Wesley L. Vincent, Ph.D., National Catholic Register comment, 9-30-16

Your books have given the words and the guidance to my deepest feelings, on my path back to my Catholic faith. I am home. Thank you Dave Armstrong.

Tracy Lynne Schweitzer Malloy, on my Facebook page, 5-17-17

Dave, I wanted to share this photo of my oldest daughter at her first communion and confirmation. Your work was one of the core reasons my wife and I became Catholic six years ago. I can say with confidence that without that conversion, I wouldn’t have my 5 beautiful children, and now I am watching the faith blossom in their lives. I just wanted to say thank you for heeding God’s call as I share this, the fruit of your labors.

Allen Irvan, Facebook PM, 9-25-17

I was baptized Catholic, raised Protestant, became an atheist; I will say that apologists, including those at Catholic Answers and Dave Armstrong, were crucial in my faith going from being an atheist to a very religious Roman Catholic.

Peter Rowe, Facebook, 2-15-18

When speaking of Patheos bloggers, I once again find myself indebted to friend and sometimes foe Dave Armstrong. A few years ago, Dave invited me to be part of an online dialogue between Latin Catholicism and Eastern Catholicism as Orthodoxy in communion with Rome. I had first met Dave online during the rise of the Catholic apologetics movement in the 1990s. Dave’s work was instrumental in drawing me back to full communion with Rome; first as a Pentecostal, and second as an adherent to a particular branch of Latin traditionalism that at the time mistrusted the Second Vatican Council and the Roman Pontiffs elected following the council.

To this end, I am forever grateful to Dave for helping me understand the beauty and necessity of full communion with the Roman Catholic Church: especially as a Catholic who, for the past 12 years as of this writing, has belonged to what historically was founded as an Eastern Orthodox Church (i.e., prior to restoring full communion with Rome at the Union of Brest).

Canonist Pete Vere, Patheos, 3-23-18

***


2017-05-27T16:49:50-04:00

Original Title:  On the Definition of “Christian” and Whether Luther and Calvin Regarded Catholicism as Christian (vs. Anti-Catholic Calvinist Austin Reed)
CologneCathedral2
Cologne Cathedral [Flickr / CC BY2.0 license]

***

(6-14-13)

***

 
Austin’s words [see his Facebook page] will be in blue. We had an exchange on 1 May 2013 on Facebook about the definition of Christian (which is included as the first part below). The latest dialogue began in June 2013 on one Facebook thread, spread to another, and then to this website paper.

See the Facebook Introduction to this paper and further discussion.

* * * * *


Do you believe that the Catholic Church is a legitimate form of Christianity, Austin? Can a Catholic be saved if he or she believes all that the Catholic Church teaches? Or do they have to be a lousy Catholic to be a (good) Christian?

I’m not sure how to answer that question Dave. I believe there are many Catholic Christians, but I don’t believe that being a Catholic automatically makes a person a Christian (and the same goes for Protestants). The second half of your question seems to be loaded, but I’ll answer anyway, a true Christian must place the entirety of their faith in the sufficiency of Christ’s work on the cross for them. They must experience a total transformation so dramatic it can only be described as a “new birth”. Notice, nowhere did I include a “sinner’s prayer” or any sort of altar call nonsense. Becoming a new creation in Christ is a matter of placing your faith in the sufficiency of Christ’s work on your behalf.

Can a Catholic do that and at the same time believe all that the Catholic Church teaches? Is Catholic theology a species of Christian theology?

Of course they could, and many do, but they are inconsistent with the official teaching of the Catholic Church concerning justification.

So that is your answer: you have to be a lousy Catholic in order to be a (good) Christian. 

Yeah because its a loaded question.

That is classic anti-Catholicism. It’s a perfectly sensible question; not “loaded.” It seeks a straightforward answer. You gave the textbook answer, which doesn’t surprise me in the least.

Dave, proving that I’m “anti-Catholic” (a designation I find incredibly immature and offensive) proves nothing. It does nothing to discredit the truth claims I’ve made thus far.

Didn’t say it did. But it has to do with how willing I am to spend time discussing stuff. “Anti-Catholic” is a perfectly legitimate term, used for many decades by historians, sociologists, and other scholars, as I have documented. [links to those papers provided below]

I will definitely check out all of the blog posts. To be clear, I reject the designation “anti-Catholic” because I have a great deal of affection for my Catholic family and friends. The term “anti-Catholic” seems to suggest some sort of malicious intent on my part for bringing up these distinctions when in reality I simply want to defend or clarify the Protestant position. The term itself really makes honest dialogue impossible.

My use has nothing to do with that at all. Zero, zip, nada. It’s strictly a theological meaning (denial that Catholic theology or Catholicism is a fully Christian system, in the way that you think fellow Protestants are Christians, even though you disagree with them on various points). But of course, to believe that, you clearly must misunderstand elements of our belief-system.

It’s not the term that makes dialogue impossible, but the point of view designated by the term. At least that’s been my experience, and I tried dialoguing about theology for 17 years with anti-Catholics, before giving up in 2007 (many scores of those past debates remain online). I gave up when I was refused by seven different Protestant anti-Catholics, to engage in a chat debate about the definition of “Christian.” That was the last straw. If the basics couldn’t be honestly discussed, then nothing really could be. Dialogue is literally impossible when even the most basic of premises can’t be agreed-upon at the outset. There’s no common ground.

You seem like you’re right on the edge of accepting us as fellow Christians, though: an R. C. Sproul type, who should know better.
If you read Trent on justification closely and carefully, I think it’s possible you could be persuaded that we’re in the fold. 


* * *

I am not anti-Catholic and I am personally offended by the term, in the same way I am offended by the term “homophobe”. I love Catholic people and have several near and dear Catholic friends.

We’ve been through this before, Austin. “Anti-Catholicism” as I use it, in accordance with scholarly usage, means “one who denies that Catholicism is a Christian system of theology.” It has nothing to do with behavior per se (in its basic definition). 

There is also some usage, granted, of behavior, as in this instance, which was clearly anti-Catholic not only doctrinally, but physically, in terms of persecution. Thus, events of this sort will be described as “anti-Catholic” in the sense that, e.g., a violent Catholic attack on Protestants in Belfast might be described as “anti-Protestant.” Words can have different and multiple meanings as well.

But in my own frequent usage it refers (almost always) to doctrine only. Thus, an anti-Catholic could love Catholics around him to death and have nothing but benevolent and warm fuzzy feelings, wanting to see them saved, etc. He remains anti-Catholic if he believes that in order to be a good Christian and be saved, one has to be a “bad” Catholic (i.e., denounce various Catholic tenets that are abominated by the anti-Catholic and regarded as subversive of true Christianity).

I’ve reiterated all this 97,603 times through the years, and no doubt I will continue to be misunderstood (to my endless frustration), but it’s all perfectly consistent and linguistically / logically sound.

My point is, the use of the term “anti-Protestant” suggests an appeal to pity. Every consistent Protestant will fall under the designation “anti-Catholic” using your criteria . . . 

That’s sheer nonsense. The vast majority of Protestants regard Catholics as fellow Christians, and do so with perfect consistency, just as we do the other way around. For a Protestant to say that we are not Christians makes mincemeat of any reasonable, sensible, solid definition of “Christian”. 

We are Protestants because we’re protesting the doctrine of Justification as set forth in the Council of Trent. Anyone who adheres to that understanding of Justification is unequivocally NOT a Christian.

Hogwash. Define “Christian” and explain where your definition comes from and why all Christians are bound to it.
 


Dave, your assumptions are massive and totally unwarranted. You know as well as I do that the alleged historicity of Roman Catholicism has been critiqued over and over again, and I am yet to see any serious responses (and yes I’ve read your Sola Scriptura book). I would love to see a Roman Catholic make a historical case that Protestantism has historically allowed for consistent Roman Catholics to be Christians.

That’s easy. Luther acknowledged that the Catholic Church was Christian in the basic sense of the word, and the debt of Lutheranism to it. I have several of his comments to that effect. His main beef was with the papacy. He regarded Catholics on a much higher plane than he did Zwinglians, whom he regarded as definitely damned. Even Calvin accepts Catholic baptism. That makes us Christians. [see documentation below]

You’re a good and sharp guy. With more education, I believe you’ll come around and see the foolishness and utter untenability of the anti-Catholic position. Sometimes these things take time.

*** 

That’s all I’ve said: regard us as fellow Christians and I’ll never classify you as an anti-Catholic. It ain’t rocket science. Disagree on all the usual stuff, but don’t take the intellectually suicidal route of denying that the entity that you came from (and must have come from, historically speaking) is Christian.
 


. . . which would really make the term completely useless. Its clearly a term loaded with emotional baggage that is totally superfluous and unhelpful. I would be happy to dialogue with any Catholic who wants to interact with Protestant truth claims regarding any doctrine, but I have a very difficult time someone serious who regards those who disagree with him as “anti-Catholic”. 

Refute the scholars in my papers about the term if you disagree . . . I’ve told you how I use it.

I’m happy to dialogue with any Protestant who regards me as a fellow Christian (as I am). Otherwise, I’d much rather dialogue with an atheist, because th
at is a more consistent position than that of the small anti-Catholic wing of Protestantism, that takes the ridiculous and indefensible position of Protestantism being Christian while the Catholicism from which it derived somehow is not. It’s impossible to defend such a position historically, biblically, or logically.

This is why seven anti-Catholics turned down a debate on that: at which time I gave up on debating theology with anti-Catholics altogether (in 2007). [and I have to make an exception to my usual rule to engage in this present one] 
 
Are you referring to the challenge you issued in the Alpha and Omega chat channel?

No. Jimbo White was only one of seven who declined.
 


I’m pretty sure they’ve responded to your claims any number of times.

I’m sure “they” think they have. There needs to be a serious debate about the definition of “Christian” before anything else can be intelligently talked about. But it won’t happen anytime soon. I brushed the dust off of my feet in 2007, and if anti-Catholics ever get up the guts and gumption to have that discussion, it won’t be with me. They had their chance to do that and blew it.  

Martin Luther

1528

 

In the first place I hear and see that such rebaptism is undertaken by some in order to spite the pope and to be free of any taint of the Antichrist. In the same way the foes of the sacrament want to believe only in bread and wine, in opposition to the pope, thinking thereby really to overthrow the papacy. It is indeed a shaky foundation on which they can build nothing good. On that basis we would have to disown the whole of Scripture and the office of the ministry, which of course we have received from the papacy. We would also have to make a new Bible. . . .

We on our part confess that there is much that is Christian and good under the papacy; indeed everything that is Christian and good is to be found there and has come to us from this source. For instance we confess that in the papal church there are the true holy Scriptures, true baptism, the true sacrament of the altar, the true keys to the forgiveness of sins, the true office of the ministry, the true catechism in the form of the Lord’s Prayer, the Ten Commandments, and the articles of the creed . . . I speak of what the pope and we have in common . . . I contend that in the papacy there is true Christianity, even the right kind of Christianity and many great and devoted saints. 

 . . . The Christendom that now is under the papacy is truly the body of Christ and a member of it. If it is his body, then it has the true spirit, gospel, faith, baptism, sacrament, keys, the office of the ministry, prayer, holy Scripture, and everything that pertains to Christendom. So we are all still under the papacy and therefrom have received our Christian treasures. 
. . . We do not rave as do the rebellious spirits, so as to reject everything that is found in the papal church. For then we would cast out even Christendom from the temple of God, and all that it contained of Christ.
[251] . . . We recall that St. John was not averse to hearing the Word of God from Caiaphas and pays attention to his prophecy [John 11:49 f.] . . . Christ bids us hear the godless Pharisees in the seat of Moses, though they are godless teachers . . . Let God judge their evil lies. We can still listen to their godly words . . .
Still we must admit that the enthusiasts have the Scriptures and the Word of God in other doctrines. Whoever hears it from them and believes will be saved, even though they are unholy heretics and blasphemers of Christ.
. . . [256] if the first, or child, baptism were not right, it would follow that for more than a thousand years there was no baptism or any Christendom, which is impossible. For in that case the article of the creed, I believe in one holy Christian church, would be false . . . [257] If this baptism is wrong then for that long period Christendom would have been without baptism, and if it were without baptism it would not be Christendom.
(Concerning Rebaptism: A Letter to Two Pastors, 1528, Luther’s Works, Vol. 40, 225-262; translated by Conrad Bergendoff, pp. 231-232, 251, 256-257)
1532 
This testimony of the universal holy Christian Church, even if we had nothing else, would be a sufficient warrant for holding this article [on the sacrament] and refusing to suffer or listen to a sectary, for it is dangerous and fearful to hear or believe anything against the unanimous testimony, belief, and teaching of the universal holy Christian churches, unanimously held in all the world from the beginning until now over fifteen hundred years.
(Letter to Albrecht, Margrave of Brandenburg and Duke of Prussia, 1532; from Roland H. Bainton, Studies on the Reformation, Boston: Beacon Press, 1963, p. 26; WA, Vol. XXX, 552)
  
This letter, apparently passed over by Luther’s Works, Vol. 50 (Letters III), was, thankfully, cited at some length by the celebrated Protestant historian Philip Schaff, and refers to, as Schaff notes, “the real presence of Christ in the Lord’s Supper”:
 
Moreover, this article has been unanimously believed and held from the beginning of the Christian Church to the present hour, as may be shown from the books and writings of the dear fathers, both in the Greek and Latin languages, — which testimony of the entire holy Christian Church ought to be sufficient for us, even if we had nothing more. For it is dangerous and dreadful to hear or believe anything against the unanimous testimony, faith, and doctrine of the entire holy Christian Church, as it has been held unanimously in all the world up to this year 1500. Whoever now doubts of this, he does just as much as if he believed in no Christian Church, and condemns not only the entire holy Christian Church as a damnable heresy, but Christ Himself, and all the Apostles and Prophets, who founded this article, when we say, “I believe in a holy Christian Church,” to which Christ bears powerful testimony in Matt. 28.20: “Lo, I am with you alway, to the end of the world,” and Paul, in 1 Tim. 3.15: “The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth.”
 
(The Life and Labours of St. Augustine, Oxford University: 1854, 95. Italics are Schaff’s own; cf. abridged [?] version in Preserved Smith, The Life and Letters of Martin Luther, Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1911, pp. 290-292; cf. Johann Adam Mohler, Symbolism, 1844, 400)


Schaff, writing in The Reformed Quarterly Review (July, 1888, p. 295), cites the passage yet again, and translates one portion a little differently (my italics):
 
The testimony of the entire holy Christian Church (even without any other proof) should be sufficient for us to abide by this article and to listen to no sectaries against it.
1538 

 
The papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and we have received the Holy Scriptures, baptism, the sacrament, and the office of preaching from them . . . we ourselves find it difficult to refute it . . . Then there come rushing into my heart thoughts like these: Now I see that I am in error. Oh, if only I had never started this and had never preached a word! For who dares oppose the church, of which we confess in the creed: I believe in a holy Christian church . . .
 
(Sermons on John 14-16, 1538 [on Jn 16:1-2], Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther, translated by Robert C. Schultz, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1966, 336; WA, Vol. 46, 5 ff. [edited by Cruciger]; cf. LW, Vol. XXIV, 304)
 
Thus we are also compelled to say: “I believe and am sure that the Christian Church has remained even in the papacy” . . . some of the papists are true Christians, even though they, too, have been led astray, as Christ foretold in Matt. 24:24. But by the grace of God and with His help they have been preserved in a wonderful manner.
 
(Sermons on John 14-16, 1538 [on Jn 16:1-2], LW, Vol. XXIV, 305)
 
[I]t is necessary to consider their beliefs and teachings. If I see that they preach and confess Christ as the One sent by God the Father to reconcile us to the Father through His death and to obtain grace for us, then we are in agreement, and I regard them as my dear brethren in Christ and as members of the Christian Church.
 
Yet the proclamation of this text – together with Baptism, the Sacrament of Christ, and the articles of the Creed – has remained even in the papacy, although many errors and devious paths have been introduced alongside it. . . . All errors notwithstanding, the true church has never perished.
 
(Ibid., 309)

[for more on Luther’s positive statements about the Catholic Church headed by the pope in Rome, see these articles: one / two / three]

 

John Calvin

Institutes of the Christian Religion

 

Roman Primacy in Some Sense in the Early Church

 

I deny not that the early Christians uniformly give high honour to the Roman Church, and speak of it with reverence. . . . pious and holy bishops, when driven from their sees, often betook themselves to Rome as an asylum or haven. . . . It therefore added very great authority to the Roman Church, that in those dubious times it was not so much unsettled as others, and adhered more firmly to the doctrine once delivered, as shall immediately be better explained. . . . she was held in no ordinary estimation, and received many distinguished testimonies from ancient writers. (IV, 6:16)

 

Semblance of Remaining Christianity in Catholicism

 

Still, as in ancient times, there remained among the Jews certain special privileges of a Church, so in the present day we deny not to the Papists those vestiges of a Church which the Lord has allowed to remain among them amid the dissipation. When the Lord had once made his covenant with the Jews, it was preserved not so much by them as by its own strength, supported by which it withstood their impiety. Such, then, is the certainty and constancy of the divine goodness, that the covenant of the Lord continued there and his faith could not be obliterated by their perfidy; nor could circumcision be so profaned by their impure hands as not still to he a true sign and sacrament of his covenant. Hence the children who were born to them the Lord called his own (Ezek. 16:20), though, unless by special blessing, they in no respect belonged to him. So having deposited his covenant in Gaul, Italy, Germany, Spain, and England, when these countries were oppressed by the tyranny of Antichrist, He, in order that his covenant might remain inviolable, first preserved baptism there as an evidence of the covenant;—baptism, which, consecrated by his lips, retains its power in spite of human depravity; secondly, He provided by his providence that there should be other remains also to prevent the Church from utterly perishing. But as in pulling down buildings the foundations and ruins are often permitted to remain, so he did not suffer Antichrist either to subvert his Church from its foundation, or to level it with the ground (though, to punish the ingratitude of men who had despised his word, he allowed a fearful shaking and dismembering to take place), but was pleased that amid the devastation the edifice should remain, though half in ruins.  (IV, 2:11)

Therefore, while we are unwilling simply to concede the name of Church to the Papists, we do not deny that there are churches among them. The question we raise only relates to the true and legitimate constitution of the Church, implying communion in sacred rites, which are the signs of profession, and especially in doctrine. Daniel and Paul foretold that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God (Dan. 9:27; 2 Thess. 2:4); we regard the Roman Pontiff as the leader and standard-bearer of that wicked and abominable kingdom. By placing his seat in the temple of God, it is intimated that his kingdom would not be such as to destroy the name either of Christ or of his Church. Hence, then, it is obvious that we do not at all deny that churches remain under his tyranny; churches, however, which by sacrilegious impiety he has profaned, by cruel domination has oppressed, by evil and deadly doctrines like poisoned potions has corrupted and almost slain; churches where Christ lies half-buried, the gospel is suppressed, piety is put to flight, and the worship of God almost abolished; where, in short, all things are in such disorder as to present the appearance of Babylon rather than the holy city of God. In one word, I call them churches, inasmuch as the Lord there wondrously preserves some remains of his people, though miserably torn and scattered, and inasmuch as some symbols of the Church still remain—symbols especially whose efficacy neither the craft of the devil nor human depravity can destroy. But as, on the other hand, those marks to which we ought especially to have respect in this discussion are effaced, I say that the whole body, as well as every single assembly, want the form of a legitimate Church.  (IV, 2:12)

Baptism Initiates Us Into the Body of Christ; Makes Us Christians

 

[all emphases added]

Baptism is the initiatory sign by which we are admitted to the fellowship of the Church, that being ingrafted into Christ we may be accounted children of God. Moreover, the end for which God has given it (this I have shown to be common to all mysteries) is, first, that it may be conducive to our faith in him; and, secondly, that it may serve the purpose of a confession among men. The nature of both institutions we shall explain in order. Baptism contributes to our faith three things, which require to be treated separately. The first object, therefore, for which it is appointed by the Lord, is to be a sign and evidence of our purification, or (better to explain my meaning) it is a kind of sealed instrument by which he assures us that all our sins are so deleted, covered, and effaced, that they will never come into his sight, never be mentioned, never imputed. For it is his will that all who have believed, be baptised for the remission of sins. Hence those who have thought that baptism is nothing else than the badge and mark by which we profess our religion before men, in the same way as soldiers attest their profession by bearing the insignia of their commander, having not attended to what was the principal thing in baptism; and this is, that we are to receive it in connection with the promise, “He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved” (Mark 16:16).  (IV, 15:1)

In this sense is to be understood the statement of Paul, that “Christ loved the Church, and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” (Eph. 5:25, 26); and again, “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3:5). Peter also says that “baptism also doth now save us” (1 Peter 3:21). For he did not mean to intimate that our ablution and salvation are perfected by water, or that water possesses in itself the virtue of purifying, regenerating, and renewing; nor does he mean that it is the cause of salvation, but only that the knowledge and certainty of such gifts are perceived in this sacrament. This the words themselves evidently show. For Paul connects together the word of life and baptism of water, as if he had said, by the gospel the message of our ablution and sanctification is announced; by baptism this message is sealed. And Peter immediately subjoins, that that baptism is “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, which is of faith.” Nay, the only purification which baptism promises is by means of the sprinkling of the blood of Christ, who is figured by water from the resemblance to cleansing and washing. (IV, 15:2)

We ought to consider that at whatever time we are baptised, we are washed and purified once for the whole of life. Wherefore, as often as we fall, we must recall the remembrance of our baptism, and thus fortify our minds, so as to feel certain and secure of the remission of sins. (IV, 15:3)

. . .  we are washed from our sins by the blood of Christ. And what is the sign and evidence of that washing if it be not baptism? We see, then, that that forgiveness has reference to baptism. . . . there can be no doubt that all the godly may, during the whole course of their lives, whenever they are vexed by a consciousness of their sins, recall the remembrance of their baptism, that they may thereby assure themselves of that sole and perpetual ablution which we have in the blood of Christ. (IV, 15:4)

Another benefit of baptism is, that it shows us our mortification in Christ and new life in him. “Know ye not,” says the apostle, “that as many of us as were baptised into Jesus Christ, were baptised into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death,” that we “should walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:3, 4). . . . as the twig derives substance and nourishment from the root to which it is attached, so those who receive baptism with true faith truly feel the efficacy of Christ’s death in the mortification of their flesh, and the efficacy of his resurrection in the quickening of the Spirit. On this he founds his exhortation, that if we are Christians we should be dead unto sin, and alive unto righteousness. . . . in the passage which we formerly quoted, he calls it “the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Tit. 3:5). We are promised, first, the free pardon of sins and imputation of righteousness; and, secondly, the grace of the Holy Spirit, to form us again to newness of life. (IV, 15:5)


The last advantage which our faith receives from baptism is its assuring us not only that we are ingrafted into the death and life of Christ, but so united to Christ himself as to be partakers of all his blessings. . . .  Paul proves us to be the sons of God, from the fact that we put on Christ in baptism (Gal. 3:27). (IV, 15:6)

Baptism serves as our confession before men, inasmuch as it is a mark by which we openly declare that we wish to be ranked among the people of God, by which we testify that we concur with all Christians in the worship of one God, and in one religion; by which, in short, we publicly assert our faith, . . .  (IV, 15:13)

In so far as it is a sign of our confession, we ought thereby to testify that we confide in the mercy of God, and are pure, through the forgiveness of sins which Christ Jesus has procured for us; that we have entered into the Church of God, that with one consent of faith and love we may live in concord with all believers. This last was Paul’s meaning, when he said that “by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13).  (IV, 15:15)


[C]hildren derive some benefit from their baptism, when, being ingrafted into the body of the Church, . . . (IV, 16:9)

God, regenerating us in baptism, ingrafts us into the fellowship of his Church, and makes us his by adoption, . . . (IV, 17:1)

Baptism being a kind of entrance into the Church, an initiation into the faith, . . . Wherefore, as there is but one God, one faith, one Christ, one Church, which is his body, so Baptism is one, and is not repeated. (IV, 18:19)


Catholic Baptism is Valid

Moreover, if we have rightly determined that a sacrament is not to be estimated by the hand of him by whom it is administered, but is to be received as from the hand of God himself, from whom it undoubtedly proceeded, we may hence infer that its dignity neither gains nor loses by the administrator. And, just as among men, when a letter has been sent, if the hand and seal is recognised, it is not of the least consequence who or what the messenger was; so it ought to be sufficient for us to recognise the hand and seal of our Lord in his sacraments, let the administrator be who he may. This confutes the error of the Donatists, who measured the efficacy and worth of the sacrament by the dignity of the minister. Such in the present day are our Catabaptists, who deny that we are duly baptised, because we were baptised in the Papacy by wicked men and idolaters; hence they furiously insist on anabaptism. Against these absurdities we shall be sufficiently fortified if we reflect that by baptism we were initiated not into the name of any man, but into the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and, therefore, that baptism is not of man, but of God, by whomsoever it may have been administered. Be it that those who baptised us were most ignorant of God and all piety, or were despisers, still they did not baptise us into a fellowship with their ignorance or sacrilege, but into the faith of Jesus Christ, because the name which they invoked was not their own but God’s, nor did they baptise into any other name. But if baptism was of God, it certainly included in it the promise of forgiveness of sin, mortification of the flesh, quickening of the Spirit, and communion with Christ. Thus it did not harm the Jews that they were circumcised by impure and apostate priests. It did not nullify the symbol so as to make it necessary to repeat it. It was enough to return to its genuine origin. The objection that baptism ought to be celebrated in the assembly of the godly, does not prove that it loses its whole efficacy because it is partly defective. When we show what ought to be done to keep baptism pure and free from every taint, we do not abolish the institution of God though idolaters may corrupt it. Circumcision was anciently vitiated by many superstitions, and yet ceased not to be regarded as a symbol of grace; nor did Josiah and Hezekiah, when they assembled out of all Israel those who had revolted from God, call them to be circumcised anew. (IV, 15:16)


[see also, Calvinist Francis Nigel Lee’s paper, “Calvin on the Validity of ‘Romish’ Baptism”; see a list of his voluminous writings and his obituary. He was quite a scholar. May he rest in peace; he was afflicted with the horrible Lou Gehrig’s disease. He treated me very kindly on one occasion (c. 1999) where I was scorned, mocked, and pharisaically consigned to hell on one ridiculous Reformed discussion forum n the Internet. He was literally the only one there who acted like a Christian should, and also, I might add, with intellectual consistency on this issue. Lee (like Calvin) was himself baptized as a Catholic and never rebaptized]

                                      The Difficulty of  Determining Who is Among the Elect

The judgment which ought to be formed concerning the visible Church which comes under our observation, must, I think, be sufficiently clear from what has been said. I have observed that the Scriptures speak of the Church in two ways. Sometimes when they speak of the Church they mean the Church as it really is before God—the Church into which none are admitted but those who by the gift of adoption are sons of God, and by the sanctification of the Spirit true members of Christ. In this case it not only comprehends the saints who dwell on the earth, but all the elect who have existed from the beginning of the world. Often, too, by the name of Church is designated the whole body of mankind scattered throughout the world, who profess to worship one God and Christ, who by baptism are initiated into the faith; by partaking of the Lord’s Supper profess unity in true doctrine and charity, agree in holding the word of the Lord, and observe the ministry which Christ has appointed for the preaching of it. In this Church there is a very large mixture of hypocrites, who have nothing of Christ but the name and outward appearance: of ambitious, avaricious, envious, evil-speaking men, some also of impurer lives, who are tolerated for a time, either because their guilt cannot be legally established, or because due strictness of discipline is not always observed. Hence, as it is necessary to believe the invisible Church, which is manifest to the eye of God only, so we are also enjoined to regard this Church which is so called with reference to man, and to cultivate its communion. (IV, 1:7)


The earlier 1536 version of the Institutes at this point read as follows:

Consequently, all who profess with us the same God and Christ by confession of faith, example of life and participation in the sacraments, ought by some judgment of love to be deemed elect and members of the church. They should be so considered, even if some imperfection resides in their morals.

(in Willem Balke, Calvin and the Anabaptist Radicals, translated by William Heynen, Grand rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1981 [orig. 1973 in Dutch], p. 50; p. 82 in the Battles translation of the 1536 edition)


For more on Calvin’s view of the elect, see my paper on that topic.

Calvin also signed the ecumenical Augsburg Confession, which certainly didn’t deny that Catholicism was a species of Christianity. He signed, specifically, the 1540 revised version by Philip Melanchthon, called the Variata.

Reply to Cardinal Sadoleto (1539)

 

We, indeed, Sadolet, deny not that those over which you preside are Churches of Christ, but we maintain that the Roman Pontiff with his whole herd of pseudo-bishops, who have seized upon the pastor’s office, are ravening wolves, . . . Destroyed the Church would have been, had not God, with singular goodness, prevented.

(September 1, 1539; translated by Henry Beveridge, 1844; reprinted in A Reformation Debate, edited by John C. Olin, New York: Harper Torchbooks, 1966 [online link] )

Ulrich Zwingli
 

                 Against the Catabaptist Catastrophe (1527)


In this work, Protestant “reformer” Zwingli defended infant baptism and the essential validity and unrepeatability of Catholic baptism. [see the paper by Francis Nigel Lee above, p. 45]

[see also Presbyterian Charles Hodge’s classic argument about Catholicism being Christian]

***

 
So what is your response to my reply to your very confident (and false) assertions, Austin? I fell asleep waiting 13 hours . . .


[I posted on Facebook (6-4-13) about one of anti-Catholic James White’s innumerable insults at my expense. I entitled it, “One of My Favorite ‘Dr.’ [?] James White Potshots”]

Dave, can you provide an exegetical “paper” that interacts with the relevant passages in their original language?

No (I only know English). Can you provide an answer to my last comments in our exchange yesterday? You said you’d love to see a Catholic produce classical Protestants saying that Catholics were Christians (after saying that anyone who accepted Trent on justification couldn’t possibly be a Christian). I quickly produced documentation from Luther and Calvin, and you haven’t been heard from since, except to produce this non sequitur.

Sure I can. Generally I stop posting because you are either incapable of interacting with the substance of my critique or you just refer me to one of your books (one of which I purchased by the way). I’ll look at it and get back to you. 

Right. So you take the same approach as White: I’m a dumbbell and imbecile, incapable of even comprehending opposing arguments, whereas I said twice recently that you were a “sharp” guy and a “good” guy. Case study in Catholic vs. anti-Catholic methodologies . . . You stopped because I am an ignoramus, but now you’ll get “back to” me. That’s a fascinating juxtaposition there. LOL

Dave, my point is, you felt the need to bring into question Dr. White’s credentials (see the title “dr.” followed by [?]) yet you are unable to provide exegesis on the same level as Dr. White and others. You’re calling out Dr. White for his alleged “pot shot” while you’re guilty of the very same behavior. Dave, I didn’t get back to you because I severely doubt that you’ll even interact with my post in any meaningful way. I try to budget my time wisely when it comes to this sort of thing. Since you’ve called into question my ability to answer you, I will gladly respond.

I’ve written several papers documenting White’s bogus “doctorate.” [one / two / three / four / five / six / seven / eight] That’s a completely different issue from one’s exegetical abilities (or alleged lack thereof). I don’t go around misleading people as to my educational attainments. White simply calls me names and talks about how stupid I allegedly am, whereas my papers on his degree are filled with facts, documentation, and his own statements. No direct comparison whatever.

[I also praised White in the same Facebook thread: “I think White does good work in a number of areas: e.g., fighting various heresies, KJV-only, liberal theology, and Islam. It’s when he goes on his anti-Catholic tirades that he lowers himself into the slime pit.”]

You can go jump in the lake. I gave you exactly what you wanted when you asked about classical Protestants acknowledging Catholicism as Christian; you have ignored it for about 20 hours now, and then you come back with insults and act like a condescending, pompous ass, precisely as your hero White does when he has no answer to something. I ain’t interested in slinging mud with you and White, but in serious argumentation, minus ad hominem.


Yeah, sounds like I struck a nerve and now you’re trying to save face. This is typical RC apologetic “rah rah” talk.

Answer my replies. Put up or shut up, if you think you are so superior in intellect and argumentative prowess.

Do you want a response or not? I was lead [sic] to believe by your comment (“go jump in a lake”) that you weren’t interested in hearing my response.

What part of “Answer my replies” don’t you grasp? Personally, you can go jump in the lake, but as a supposed great intellect, you need to have the courage of your convictions, since you have read me and all my Catholic friends here out of Christianity.

Great, I will respond to your articles.

All will end up on my website, including your obligatory anti-Catholic insults. All par for the course with you guys.

Now let’s watch Austin try to “prove” that no obedient Catholic could possibly be a Christian: a position far beyond what even Luther and Calvin held. It should be very entertaining and fascinating indeed. He’s done a great job digging his own pit; now he can gradually bury himself in it or else flee in abject horror of fact and logic to the hills, with insults and potshots flying, all the way up (James White style).

Wow, Dave do you want a substantive response or not? Give me a few days and I’ll answer every thing you brought up in your post. I have a family and, believe it or not, obligations outside of this discussion. Believe me, you will have your response. 

***

In one of my initial posts I said, “I would love to see a Roman Catholic make a historical case that Protestantism has historically allowed for consistent Roman Catholics to be Christians.” I’m going to argue that you have failed to meet my challenge. Before I go into your various quotes from Calvin and Luther, I want to explain why I say a consistent Roman Catholic cannot be a Christian. A consistent Roman Catholic must believe all that the Church has “infallibly” defined as dogma. Rome has dogmatically defined an aberrant gospel. Therefore, every consistent Catholic must hold to the aberrant gospel of Rome, in order to be a consistent Catholic. By “Christian” I mean, anyone who is in possession of true and saving faith that proceeds from a correct understanding of the Gospel as set forth in Scripture. 

This analysis suffers from a number of problems:

1) You falsely assume that Catholics follow an “aberrant gospel.”


2) You define Christian minus any demonstration from either Scripture or Protestant dogmatic statements on the matter (precisely what I requested of you).

3) You assume without argument or demonstration that the “true and saving faith” is Reformed soteriology. This is extremely common in Reformed circles: it’s assume assume assume, without argumentation or authoritative demonstration (from either Scripture or denominational creeds and confessions, as far as they go). It’s also very common for Reformed to collapse the gospel into soteriology only, and (of course) with the assumption that the peculiar and historically novel Reformed soteriology is the correct and only one.

4) You assume (again without argumentation, but I take it you will at least attempt that as we proceed) a “correct” conception of the gospel that Protestants supposedly accept and Catholics deny.


All of this is essentially circular argumentation, or begging the question.

In fact, the Bible is very clear about what the gospel is. I noted this many years ago (in 1997). The big difference between myself and Austin / Reformed anti-Catholic apologists is that they talk a good game about the “gospel” (as they define it) being “biblical” without showing it from Scripture, whereas I actually take the Bible seriously and do that, rather than just make a bald and unsubstantiated claim. I cite my earlier paper (with a few clarifying additions now):

***

It’s quite curious to me that so many Protestants want to define the gospel in the strict sense of “justification by faith alone,” when the Bible itself is very explicit and clear that this is not the case at all.

For example, we know what the gospel is because we have a record of the apostles preaching it immediately after Pentecost. St. Peter’s first sermon in the Upper Room (Acts 2:22-40) is certainly the gospel, especially since 3000 people became Christians upon hearing it (2:41)! In it he utters not a word about “faith alone.” He instructs the hearers, rather, to “repent, and be baptized . . . so that your sins may be forgiven” (2:38). So, immediately after the resurrection, at the very outset of the “Church Age,” an apostle teaches sacramentalism and baptismal regeneration.

St. Paul defines the gospel in Acts 13:16-41 as the resurrection of Jesus (vss. 32-33):

And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, [33] this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, `Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee.’ [RSV, as throughout]


. . . , and as His death, burial, and resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:1-8 Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, [2] by which you are saved, if you hold it fast — unless you believed in vain. [3] For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, [4] that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, [5] and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. [6] Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. [7] Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. [8] Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.


When Paul converted, straightaway he also got baptized, in order to have his sins “washed away” (baptismal regeneration again):

Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.


The explicit scriptural proclamations and definitions of the gospel strikingly exclude “faith alone,” while other actions by Jesus and the Apostles contradict it by force of example. Conclusion?: The gospel is – as Paul teaches – the death, burial and Resurrection of Jesus. This is the “good news,” not some technical soteriological theory. Even common sense would dictate that this “good news” is comprised of Jesus’ redemptive work for us – the great historical drama of His incarnation and atonement, not forensic, “legal,” imputed justification. And the prophets foretold these events, not a fine-tuned theory of application of those events to the believer – irregardless of whoever has the correct theory. How could a mere theological abstract reasonably be called “good news”?

***

I provide many more biblical examples in my paper, “The Gospel, as Preached by the First Christians.” There is not the slightest disagreement between Catholics and Protestants regarding any of the biblical definitions of the gospel. We heartily concur. Acceptance of this gospel, having to do with Christs finished work on the cross for us, comes through grace alone, and through faith, but not faith alone. Hence Paul refers to the “obedience of faith” (Rom 1:5; 16:26), and the “work of faith” (1 Thess 1:3; 2 Thess 1:11), and the notion of “obeying” the truth of the gospel (Rom 2:8; 10:16; Gal 5:7; 2 Thess 1:8).

Faith alone or imputed, forensic, extrinsic justification is so far and remote from the gospel and salvation, that I have found 50 passages concerning the final judgment and eschatological salvation, that all talk about works, with scarcely a mention of faith at all. Works (being the other side of the “coin” of faith) simply cannot be separated from the question of salvation or from justification (separated into a category of sanctification that is optional). The apostle Paul constantly aligns grace, faith, works, and actions. I’ve found 50 passages along those lines, too.

You largely ignore my quotations from Luther and Calvin. Regarding one of the most explicit Luther statements about the remaining Christian nature in the Catholic Church, you note:

But he goes on to say, “Listen to what St. Paul says to the Thessalonians [2 Thess. 2:4]: ‘The Antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God.’ If now the pope is (and I cannot believe otherwise) the veritable Antichrist, he will not sit or reign in the devil’s stall, but in the temple of God. No, he will not sit where there are only devils and unbelievers, or where no Christ or Christianity exists. The Antichrist must thus be among Christians. And because he is to sit and reign there, it is necessary that there be Christians under him. God’s temple is not the description for a pile of stones, but for the holy Christendom (1 Cor. 3:17), in which he is to reign.”

So what? Ho hum. None of this undermines or even contradicts what he just wrote (which you ignore, in terms of grappling with):

[Luther] We on our part confess that there is much that is Christian and good under the papacy; indeed everything that is Christian and good is to be found there and has come to us from this source. For instance we confess that in the papal church there are the true holy Scriptures, true baptism, the true sacrament of the altar, the true keys to the forgiveness of sins, the true office of the ministry, the true catechism in the form of the Lord’s Prayer, the Ten Commandments, and the articles of the Creed. . . . I contend that in the papacy there is true Christianity, even the right kind of Christianity and many great and devoted saints.


Etc. Good grief! What more is needed? How much more explicit could he get? It’s the Anabaptists and Zwinglians whom Luther thinks are damned and non-Christians, not Catholics. We already know that he rails against the pope as antichrist, and the system of government in the Catholic Church. But that is a separate issue. He still recognizes a remaining Christianity.  I have noted for many years (far more than you, I’m sure), the negative things that Luther says about Catholicism. Sometimes he seems contradictory. But he did state the above, and we have no reason to doubt it. It has to be dealt with on its own terms, but you have taken a pass.

To refresh the memory of our (very patient) readers, here is your original claim that you have to defend:

I would love to see a Roman Catholic make a historical case that Protestantism has historically allowed for consistent Roman Catholics to be Christians.


That’s proven in just this one citation alone from Luther (and I have many of his and Calvin’s). If a Catholic accepts the pope (as he must, by definition), nevertheless he retains “true baptism” and all the other “good” and “true” and “Christian” attributes mentioned above by Luther. The one thing doesn’t wipe out the other. Baptism remains what it is. And baptism (for Luther, Calvin, and Catholics alike) is the entrance into the Christian faith and the Body of Christ. This is what you won’t be able to overthrow, no matter how hard you try.

But he goes on to say, “Listen to what St. Paul says to the Thessalonians [2 Thess. 2:4]: ‘The Antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God.’ If now the pope is (and I cannot believe otherwise) the veritable Antichrist, he will not sit or reign in the devil’s stall, but in the temple of God. No, he will not sit where there are only devils and unbelievers, or where no Christ or Christianity exists. The Antichrist must thus be among Christians. And because he is to sit and reign there, it is necessary that there be Christians under him. God’s temple is not the description for a pile of stones, but for the holy Christendom (1 Cor. 3:17), in which he is to reign.”

Thanks for proving my point and doing my work for me! This is great!  Luther again proves that Christianity is not inconsistent with Catholicism (as is made out today by anti-Catholics). It’s central to his point here: “he will not sit where there are only devils and unbelievers, or where no Christ or Christianity exists. The Antichrist must thus be among Christians . . .” Exactly. Thank you Luther (and Austin). No talk here of complete apostasy, etc. That’s reserved for Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Adventists, Campbellites, and various anti-Catholic fundamentalist evangelicals and Calvinists.

You play the same fallacious game again:

Luther goes on to say, “But when we oppose and reject the pope it is because he does not keep to these treasures of Christendom which he has inherited from the apostles. Instead he makes additions of the devil and does not use these treasures for the improvement of the temple. Rather he works toward its destruction, in setting his commandments and ordinances above the ordinance of Christ. But Christ preserves his Christendom even in the midst of such destruction, just as he rescued Lot at Sodom, as St. Peter recounts (1 Pet. 2; 2 Pet. 2:6).”

The fallacy is that Luther’s negative statements somehow eliminate or refute his positive statements regarding Christianity in Catholicism. They do not. You haven’t demonstrated that they remove the other “positive” statements from consideration or relevance. You simply relentlessly assume without basis that which is your burden to prove and demonstrate.

My position, the very same position as the Reformers, is that the Roman church possessed enough truth that some came to know Christ in spite of the “additions of the devil”. Now, the problem for Protestants today is that the Roman church contains just enough truth that many have been duped into false ecumenism and ungodly compromise, that has led some to embrace a false gospel.

More bald, assumed statements sans argumentation and demonstration; hence, no need to interact with it. You just keep repeating the same fallacies. I don’t have to keep repeating the refutations of them over and over. Once is sufficient.

Luther is merely reinforcing the fact that it is the Scriptures and the correct exposition of the Scriptures that should be obeyed. Naturally, I agree. 

So do we. But we actually respect and adhere to all of Scripture, not merely highly selective tidbits (ignoring many other portions and motifs of Scripture), according to an eisegetical predisposition, carved out from the novel traditions of men.

My position is not that Rome gets it wrong 100% of the time. It is my position, that anyone who confesses the Roman Catholic doctrine of Justification cannot call himself or herself a “Christian” in possession of true and saving faith.

I know that; but you’re not proving it; you’re simply asserting it. You haven’t overthrown a single statement of Luther’s where he upholds the Christian nature of Catholicism: not one. All you do is quote his railings about the antichrist. I wait in vain for some sort of actual argument from you. This is the same boorish, pedantic nature that we observe in so much of Catholic vs. Reformed anti-Catholic “interaction” (and why I seek to routinely avoid it). Nothing is ever accomplished.

You listed several other quotes regarding Baptism which are completely irrelevant to our discussion. I don’t agree with Luther’s views on Baptism, and I’m not obligated to in order to be a consistent Protestant.

Same old same old (my patience is rapidly dwindling). They’re not irrelevant at all. Baptism is the entrance rite or sacrament into the Christian faith. Obviously, then, one who is baptized is a Christian. You don’t have to agree with Luther. He is relevant in answer to your charge about the historical case that Protestantism has historically allowed for consistent Roman Catholics to be Christians”. Luther as the founder of Protestantism is obviously central to that. But if you throw him out, as if it is of no import to our discussion. I have far more quotes from Calvin on baptism, and presumably you would accord them much more weight. But today’s Protestants are often only dimly aware of their own denominational heritage, so I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if you diss Calvin on baptism. [he does, folks]

I suspect many of your Luther quotes came from Schaff.

They generally come from primary sources. If you had actually consulted the bibliographical information I provided, you would see that they are from the standard collection of Luther’s Works, Roland Bainton, and Paul Althaus (whose book you call a fantastic work”). I have one citation from Schaff, because it was an alternate rendering.

Why did you ignore the fact that Schaff’s comparison of Rome’s gospel with the gospel of the Galatian apostates?

I’m not dealing with Schaff, but with Luther, Calvin, and historic Protestantism. I have studied and documented at extreme length (for 22 years now), Luther’s and Calvin’s negative statements. They don’t eliminate from consideration the ones at hand.

The imminent Protestant historian Schaff regarded the Roman church as apostate; does he represent the same extreme minority you referenced earlier?

His view is standard anti-Catholicism (far more prevalent in the 19th century than now), but he is also extremely fair as an historian and presents the facts of history as they are, as I have noted many times. He gives the facts, and then proceeds to editorialize on them, but he doesnt whitewash the facts. 

You cite Althaus and then Luther to the effect that the Church has no binding authority. But that is the separate issue of sola Scriptura and the rule of faith, whereas we are discussing the nature of Christianity (not authority and Church government). Thus, it is a non sequitur rabbit trail.

You then use your tired, silly pseudo-technique of citing other negative statements of Luther, while refusing to accept or interpret his positive ones (the ones under consideration). This is not even rational dialogue or argument. It’s “ships passing in the night.” I have extremely little patience for that . . .

Oh okay: you finally make one dinky comment about all the Luther citations I produced (thank you!):

. . . while he may use the term “Christian” in an elastic sense (in the same way some refer to America as a “Christian” nation), he did not view the gospel of Rome as the true Gospel by which men are saved, and can thus truly call themselves Christians.

This is sheer nonsense: merely your cynical, predetermined spin and sophistry in response to what Luther actually wrote. I’ll cite it again (my bolding):

We on our part confess that there is much that is Christian and good under the papacy; indeed everything that is Christian and good is to be found there and has come to us from this source. For instance we confess that in the papal church there are the true holy Scriptures, true baptism, the true sacrament of the altar, the true keys to the forgiveness of sins, the true office of the ministry, the true catechism in the form of the Lord’s Prayer, the Ten Commandments, and the articles of the Creed. . . . I contend that in the papacy there is true Christianity, even the right kind of Christianity and many great and devoted saints. 


Baptism is especially important with regard to his statements.  He thought that the Catholic Church possessed true baptism. Now, when we analyze what Luther thought about baptism, it’s clear that he thought that Catholics could very well be saved by means of it. Here is what Luther expressed along these lines:

Little children . . . are free in every way, secure and saved solely through the glory of their baptism . . . Through the prayer of the believing church which presents it, . . . the infant is changed, cleansed, and renewed by inpoured faith. Nor should I doubt that even a godless adult could be changed, in any of the sacraments, if the same church prayed for and presented him, as we read of the paralytic in the Gospel, who was healed through the faith of others (Mark 2:3-12). I should be ready to admit that in this sense the sacraments of the New Law are efficacious in conferring grace, not only to those who do not, but even to those who do most obstinately present an obstacle.
(The Babylonian Captivity of the Church, 1520, from the translation of A.T.W. Steinhauser, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, revised edition, 1970, 197)

Likewise, in his Large Catechism (1529), Luther writes:

Expressed in the simplest form, the power, the effect, the benefit, the fruit and the purpose of baptism is to save. No one is baptized that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare [of Mark 16:16], that he may be saved. But to be saved, we know very well, is to be delivered from sin, death, and Satan, and to enter Christ’s kingdom and live forever with him

. . . Through the Word, baptism receives the power to become the washing of regeneration, as St. Paul calls it in Titus 3:5 . . . Faith clings to the water and believes it to be baptism which effects pure salvation and life . . .

When sin and conscience oppress us . . . you may say: It is a fact that I am baptized, but, being baptized, I have the promise that I shall be saved and obtain eternal life for both soul and body . . . Hence, no greater jewel can adorn our body or soul than baptism; for through it perfect holiness and salvation become accessible to us . . .

(From edition by Augsburg Publishing House [Minneapolis], 1935, sections 223-224, 230, pp. 162, 165)

Again, you cite Calvin’s polemical statements against Rome, with the obligatory mention of antichrist statements. Ho hum; yawn. I devoted two books to answering Calvin’s Institutes line-by-line (and I cited the entire book IV in one of them). This sidesteps the issue of what he stated regarding whether a Catholic could be a Christian.

Under the heading “Baptism Initiates us Into the Body of Christ” you quoted Calvin as saying, “Baptism is the initiatory sign by which we are admitted to the fellowship of the Church, that being ingrafted into Christ we may be accounted children of God.”

If we take this quote without any additional context, we could possibly conclude that Calvin agreed with Rome’s doctrine of Baptism. However, in the very next section, Calvin goes on to say, “For Paul did not mean to signify that our cleansing and salvation are accomplished by water, or that water contains in itself the power to cleanse, regenerate, and renew; nor that here is the cause of salvation, but only that in this sacrament are received the knowledge and certainty of such gifts.” (IV, 15:2)

We understand that Calvin rejects baptismal regeneration. He still believes that Rome’s baptism accomplishes exactly what he thinks Reformed baptism accomplished, and that it was efficacious no matter how many things about it were wrongly believed by Catholicism. This was obviously the case in his own life, since he was baptized as a Catholic and never was re-baptized. He thought that to do that was to repeat the ancient mistake of the Donatists (whom St. Augustine so eloquently opposed).

Calvin thought Catholic baptism (the same as Reformed in its effects) was an indication of the sins of an entire life being wiped out, which goes beyond the Catholic position. That can be seen in the citations I presented, above.

I’m not sure why you chose to cite section 1 and not section 2, knowing full well (if you’ve read the Institutes in their entirety) that Calvin would clarify his position. Calvin just doesn’t sound as Catholic as you would want your readers to believe.

I posted what was relevant to our discussion. You can play the game of my supposed cynical citation, as if I try to hide other data. Anti-Catholics habitually “argue” like this. As I said, I have two books devoted to Calvin’s negative arguments against the Catholic Church, and tons more papers online. That’s been covered. I haven’t hid them from anyone.  If someone wants to see those things, they can go read it. As I said, I cite the entirety of Book IV in my book, Biblical Catholic Answers for John Calvin. Right now we are on a specific topic: what is a Christian; how does baptism in particular tie into that? Has historic Protestantism acknowledged that Catholics are Christians in some sense?

True to form, you want to largely ignore Calvin’s statements on baptism, and move over to his remarks on justification. The baptism exposition has to be interpreted in its own right. Sadly, you resort to obfuscation, obscurantism, the quick accusation of citing-out-of-context, switching the topic, going down rabbit trails, sophistry, spin, claims that the opponent is abysmally ignorant, assuming what needs to be proven, systematically ignoring opposing arguments . . . you show all this in spades and then some. It’s classic anti-catholic technique in “argumentation” (ha ha).

There is no dialogue or interaction here in any meaningful sense of the word. It’s non-existent. You started the “dialogue” with insults and you end with sophistry, obfuscation, and obscurantism. Nothing new under the sun!

Having moved over to justification in order to avoid the implications of Calvin’s remarks on baptism, and evade your intellectual responsibility to engage them, you pontificate:

Does that sound compatible with the statements of the Council of Trent or even the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Of course not! Because we are preaching two separate Gospels!

You have yet to cogently define the gospel from either Scripture or Reformed confessions or other authoritative statements. So how can we know we disagree before we have even defined our terms? I did so (from the Bible); you have not. Luther and Calvin do not assert that there is no Christianity in Catholicism. There certainly is: clearly through baptism, if nothing else.

And if those previous two passages are not enough, consider what Calvin has to say regarding Purgatory . . . So Dave, do you and other consistent Catholics affirm the doctrine of Purgatory? You and I both know the answer to that question.

Another rabbit trail. Nice try. Have fun down there . . . You then move on to the Mass and justification again. I will simply note in passing that we fully concur that initial justification is by grace alone, without any consideration of man’s merit; contra Pelagianism and even semi-Pelagianism. Trent makes that abundantly clear. Catholics also assert monergism (not synergism) as essential to initial justification, as I have documented.

I think our readers are entitled to at least one serious treatment of Calvin’s views on baptism. According to him, baptism (including Catholic baptism) bestows upon its recipients all the following characteristics (all taken from the citations above):

. . . sign by which we are admitted to the fellowship of the Church, that being ingrafted into Christ we may be accounted children of God.  (Institutes, IV, 15:1)

. . . by the gospel the message of our ablution and sanctification is announced; by baptism this message is sealed. (IV, 15:2)

We ought to consider that at whatever time we are baptised, we are washed and purified once for the whole of life. . . .  secure of the remission of sins. (IV, 15:3)

. . .  we are washed from our sins by the blood of Christ. And what is the sign and evidence of that washing if it be not baptism? . . . all the godly may, during the whole course of their lives, whenever they are vexed by a consciousness of their sins, recall the remembrance of their baptism, that they may thereby assure themselves of that sole and perpetual ablution which we have in the blood of Christ. (IV, 15:4)

Another benefit of baptism is, that it shows us our mortification in Christ and new life in him.. . . if we are Christians we should be dead unto sin, and alive unto righteousness. . . . in the passage which we formerly quoted, he calls it “the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Tit. 3:5). We are promised, first, the free pardon of sins and imputation of righteousness; and, secondly, the grace of the Holy Spirit, to form us again to newness of life. (IV, 15:5)


The last advantage which our faith receives from baptism is its assuring us not only that we are ingrafted into the death and life of Christ, but so united to Christ himself as to be partakers of all his blessings. . . .  Paul proves us to be the sons of God, from the fact that we put on Christ in baptism (Gal. 3:27). (IV, 15:6)

Baptism serves as our confession before men, inasmuch as it is a mark by which we openly declare that we wish to be ranked among the people of God, by which we testify that we concur with all Christians in the worship of one God, and in one religion; by which, in short, we publicly assert our faith, . . .  (IV, 15:13)

. . . we have entered into the Church of God, that with one consent of faith and love we may live in concord with all believers. (IV, 15:15)

[C]hildren derive some benefit from their baptism, when, being ingrafted into the body of the Church, . . . (IV, 16:9)

God, regenerating us in baptism, ingrafts us into the fellowship of his Church, and makes us his by adoption, . . . (IV, 17:1)

Baptism being a kind of entrance into the Church, an initiation into the faith, . . . Wherefore, as there is but one God, one faith, one Christ, one Church, which is his body, so Baptism is one, and is not repeated. (IV, 18:19)


Surely it is extraordinary to assert that all of these characteristics or qualities are not Christian (!!). These are all Christian attributes. He’s talking about Christians; disciples of Christ; believers, followers of Jesus. Baptism brings this about. If Catholics are not Christians by virtue of their baptism, then you are ludicrously asserting (from straightforward deductive logic), the following propositions:

1) Non-Christians are admitted to the fellowship of the Church.

2) Non-Christians are ingrafted into Christ.

3) Non-Christians are accounted children of God. 
4) Non-Christians obtain sanctification.
5)  Non-Christians are washed and purified once for the whole of life.
6)  Non-Christians have new life or newness of life in Christ.
7)  Non-Christians are united to Christ himself. 
8) Non-Christians are the sons of God.
9) Non-Christians are ranked among the people of God.
10) Non-Christians have entered into the Church of God.
11) Non-Christians live in concord with all believers.
12) Non-Christians are ingrafted into the body of the Church.
13) Non-Christians are initiated into the Christian faith.

This is simply not possible: especially not in the Reformed schema of TULIP where the non-believers are totally depraved and predestined to hell by a decree from all eternity (with no chance for it to be otherwise), and could, therefore, not possibly partake in all these attributes and estates (or even, quite arguably, any one of them). But Calvin says the baptized possess these things. Therefore, undeniably, those who do are Christians. And that includes Catholics, since he holds that Catholic baptism is valid and efficacious. It’s the case even more so for Luther, given his much stronger position of baptismal regeneration.
 
Therefore, baptized Catholics are Christians and possess all these qualities, according to Calvin, with strong support from Luther and even Zwingli. And this is but one consideration of many . . .Whether this contradicts his own statements about justification, etc., is another issue. It’s not unknown for Luther and Calvin to be internally inconsistent (believe me, I know, after many years of studying them). But as it stands, insofar as they are baptized, according to the many statements above, Catholics are fellow Christians.
 
There’s nowhere else to go with this if this is how it is “argued”: ending up in the literal nonsense we see above, where a non-Christian is at the same time a Christian, etc. We’ve descended to utterly irrational babbling and an Alice-in-Wonderland world where words change at whim or have no meaning, or no relation to other words: where contradiction is all-pervasive and self-contradiction viciously present. Subjective mush . . . gobbledygook.
 
I close with remarks from Presbyterian theologian Charles Hodge’s classic argument that Catholics are Christians (bolding — I believe — is from the person who cited it):

That Romanists as a society profess the true religion, meaning thereby the essential doctrines of the gospel, those doctrines which if truly believed will save the soul, is, as we think, plain. 1. Because they believe the Scriptures to be the word of God. 2. They direct that the Scriptures should be understood and received as they were understood by the Christian Fathers. 3. They receive the three general creeds of the church, the Apostle’s, the Nicene, and the Athanasian, or as these are summed up in the creed of Pius V. 4. They believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. In one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man. And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried. And the third day rose again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. And they believe in one catholic apostolic church. They acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins, and look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

If this creed were submitted to any intelligent Christian without his knowing whence it came, could he hesitate to say that it was the creed of a Christian church? Could he deny that these are the very terms in which for ages the general faith of Christendom has been expressed? Could he, without renouncing the Bible, say that the sincere belief of these doctrines would not secure eternal life? Can any man take it upon himself in the sight of God, to assert there is not truth enough in the above summary to save the soul?

Dave, you have completely ignored the vast majority of what I’ve said regarding both Calvin AND Luther. I went into almost every single quote you listed by providing important context and offering explanations.

I gave you the respect of actually dealing with what you wrote, instead you start out by arguing Justification by Faith alone and plug some more of your silly “quote books”.

I provided positive Protestant statements regarding the doctrine of Justification from the Westminster Confession of Faith and juxtaposed them with the dogmas of the Council of Trent.

You sir, are wasting my time and the time of your readers by engaging in the oh so typical chest beating and triumphalism that you have become known for.

On his Facebook page, Austin took some more potshots [he later deleted the thread]:

If anyone would like to read my full response to Dave’s unbelievable proof texting PM me and I’ll send it to you.
 
Dave has remained true to form and completely ignored my responses. 
 
Same old same old. I should have known better than to waste time again with an anti-Catholic sophist. But whatever: some good was accomplished, by demonstrating what Luther and Calvin believed about the Christian status of Catholicism. So Austin doesn’t get it; not the end of the world. You can lead the horse to water but you can’t make it drink. We never even got to first base. Austin has chosen to ignore virtually all of my arguments and documentation, in various ways, already noted. There is no discussion here. 
 
But others (reading) will get it. And that’s the main reason why I made this an exception to my rule as regards debate with anti-Catholics. I knew all along there wasn’t one chance in a thousand that Austin would 1) actually interact with the arguments, or 2) be convinced. It’s always — repeat, always the same with anti-Catholics. One hopes for at least #1 (which is quite possible, agree or no, for any self-respecting thinking person of any stripe), but with Austin we got neither, and he ends (appropriately and humorously) with the personal insults with which he began. So anti-Catholics en masse despise and loathe me and lie (like he does) about the nature of my apologetics efforts: like that is some bombshell revelation?

One last note: I mentioned no “silly ‘quote books’.” I do have several collections of quotations, but they weren’t mentioned in this paper. I mentioned my two books devoted to John Calvin, that answer his arguments in his Institutes point-by-point and line-by-line. They are, therefore, “dialogue books,” not “quotes books.” Nor did I “plug” them. They were mentioned because Austin implied that I was quite unfamiliar with Calvin’s views. Thus, they were counter-evidence for that assertion. Whether they are “silly” or not, I’ll let my many thousands of readers judge.

***

Brigitte, an articulate Lutheran apologist of sorts, has made some insightful comments on James Swan’s dense anti-Catholic site. Swan is a highly confused wannabe apologist who doesn’t get these things and can’t comprehend them, in his anti-Catholic fog of confusion (and in his case, considerable bigotry). Writing about Luther’s 1528 work, Concerning Rebaptism, that I cited above, Brigitte contends:

Here is how I read this: the pope will say, yes we share the Lord’s prayer, sacraments, etc. —but they (the Lutherans) are heretics. So the pope is dissembling–speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Luther is said to be “dissembling” because against the Anabaptists he defends the creed, sacraments, catechism… etc., come down from the RC church. But he is not dissembling and not speaking out of both sides of his mouth. He does believe that the RC church is right on many basic and original teachings and believes in common with the Lutherans (until they have been ruined by false teachings and innovations of the papacy).

The accusation of dissembling is wrong. Luther is not dissembling, at all. There is irony here. The question is thrown out: who is really inventing monstrous teachings and instituting innovations in the church? Is it the Lutherans? or is it the Pope? It is the Pope. Ergo. The Lutherans have held onto all the good stuff and are not calling RC anything bad for those kinds of things; only the innovations. . . .

The real point is that Luther was greatly concerned about Anabaptist teaching and the loss of the sacraments and whatever else was under dispute. Luther will stand with the RC church where it is right, and not call it heretical for those,(but not where it is wrong, i.e. innovations) and thus he will also stand with it against Anabaptists. And this is no “dissembling” whatsoever. He is only using the lingo of his opponents. . . . 


Just because something is taught by the “papacy, the Antichrist” does not mean [in Luther’s view] it is automatically wrong.

So what he is saying is: he will state, contend for and sincerely believe (by the way) that all the things he lists are the right kind of Christianity in the papal church. –Some may call this “flattering the pope” or here he says “dissemble”. They can call it what he wants. Shall he change his position on the account of them calling him this? (Of course not, and certainly he has been called many things.) He will not quit “dissembling” if what he says about the papal church must be called “dissembling” (not his choice of words, but using the assertion of his foes.) . . . the Rebaptizers are getting it exactly wrong. Instead of attacking the Antichrist (the one who rejects the gospel and calls its preachers heretical) they attack the “temple”, i.e. that what is true Christianity.

Luther is not dissembling or flattering–at all. He is dead earnest. The poor Christians who are baptized and go to the sacrament of the altar, have Christ thereby, even if the pope is their tyrant, but those who do away with the sacraments take away Christ from them altogether, thus doing great harm and causing people to go to hell.

The “dissembling” is an accusation against Luther that does not stick at all, and he is not going to change his mind.


* * *

On a humorous note, Austin found the post and opinion that Brigitte was contending against and expressed his approval:

Great post! I was dialoguing with a RC “apologist” about this very issue. Good stuff.

So we know they are referring to me. Swan’s post was clearly in response to this post (he habitually refuses to name me, so people know whose opinion is being talked about: it’s a childish game he plays). The illustrious, all-wise Swan then chimed in:

Here’s what I think will happen next: the next card played by the modern-day papists will probably be that Luther contradicted himself. This is usually how it goes with them once you expose their propaganda. 


Too late; I already played that “card” in the paper, which (as usual), this buffoon hadn’t even read before he set out supposedly “refuting” it:

Therefore, baptized Catholics are Christians and possess all these qualities, according to Calvin, with strong support from Luther and even Zwingli. And this is but one consideration of many . . .Whether this contradicts his own statements about justification, etc., is another issue. It’s not unknown for Luther and Calvin to be internally inconsistent (believe me, I know, after many years of studying them). But as it stands, insofar as they are baptized, according to the many statements above, Catholics are fellow Christians.


I also wrote above:

He still recognizes a remaining Christianity.  I have noted for many years (far more than you, I’m sure), the negative things that Luther says about Catholicism. Sometimes he seems contradictory.


I know all about Luther’s negative opinions concerning Catholicism. I’ve been dealing with them for 23 years. He also expressed some positive things (which is far more interesting and infinitely less boorish; even remarkably “ecumenical” for that troubled time). I’ve also been contending that Luther and Calvin were both self-contradictory and also at times how they vacillated and went back-and-forth. That is nothing new, either. I discussed it, in fact, in my first published article, about Martin Luther, in January 1993: over 20 years ago now.

Thus I can hardly use this supposed “tactic” in response now, when I already stated it in the paper, and have been arguing this for 23 years. It’s just one more ridiculous salvo in the never-ending arsenal of the bigoted, profoundly ignorant strain of anti-Catholic polemics: typified by this website, among several others.

It’s far more sensible to follow Brigitte’s take. She gets it; she’s the Lutheran. She understands Luther’s forms and methods of argumentation. She’s right about this. The point has been established and documented, and neither Austin nor the anti-Catholic zealot on this site have overthrown that.

***

That Luther regarded properly baptized persons as Christians is backed-up by the most well-known Luther biographer, Roland H. Bainton. Referring to his opinion in 1526, he stated:

. . . he had relinquished the hope of gathering the ardent and had turned to the education of the masses. There should be neither a sect nor a cell, but the Church should coincide with the community and all those baptized in infancy should be accounted Christian.

(Studies on the Reformation, Boston: Beacon Press, 1963, p. 38)


We know that Luther regarded Catholic baptism as valid; therefore, by ineluctable logic, Catholics are Christians, on that basis, if he regarded baptized people as such.

Luther (like Calvin) was not rebaptized as an adult (and excommunicated Protestant), and regarded his Catholic baptism as valid (since, after all, he himself argued against rebaptism). Luther clarified his opinion on baptism in his 1539 treatise, On the Councils and the Church:

I excuse St. Cyprian . . . for he held that the heretics had no sacrament at all and that therefore they had to be baptized like other heathen. . . . But our Anabaptists admit that our baptism and that of the papacy is a true baptism, but since it is administered and received by unworthy people, it is no baptism at all. St. Cyprian would never have concurred in this, much less practiced it.

(Selected Writings of Martin Luther: 1529-1546, Fortress Press, 1967, p. 238)


Austin then chimed in again on James Swan’s anti-Catholic thread on the Boors All site, getting in one last postshot:

Great stuff. Thank you for sharing. You should know that the comments (Brigitte’s comments) on this thread are being shared by Mr. Armstrong, presumably because he’s not able to articulate his own original exegesis of Luther’s writing.

Interestingly enough, Hodge says some very pointed things regarding Roman Catholicism and the Gospel. Once again, Armstrong takes them wildly out of context to “prove” a point.

Since Austin now wants to write stupidly about Hodge, let’s take a brief look at what he thought about Catholic soteriology. Here he is, writing in his Systematic Theology about the atonement (my bolding):

The first is that which has been for ages regarded as the orthodox doctrine; in its essential features common to the Latin, Lutheran, and Reformed churches. This is the doctrine which the writer has endeavoured to exhibit and vindicate in the preceding pages. According to this doctrine the work of Christ is a real satisfaction, of infinite inherent merit, to the vindicatory justice of God; so that He saves his people by doing for them, and in their stead, what they were unable to do for themselves, satisfying the demands of the law in their behalf, and bearing its penalty in their stead; whereby they are reconciled to God, receive the Holy Ghost, and are made partakers of the life of Christ to their present sanctification and eternal salvation. 
 
This doctrine provides for both the great objects above mentioned. It shows how the curse of the law is removed by Christ’s being made a curse for us; and how in virtue of this reconciliation with God we become, through the Spirit, partakers of the life of Christ. He is made unto us not only righteousness, but sanctification. We are cleansed by his blood from guilt, and renewed by his Spirit after the image of God. Having died in Him, we live in Him. Participation of his death secures participation of his life. 
No problem there . . . S. Donald Fortson III, Ph.D.,Associate Prof. of Church History and Practical Theology at the Reformed Theological Seminary – Charlotte, wrote a paper entitled “One Baptism.” He noted:

American Protestants have struggled with the issue of rebaptism. Presbyterians, for example, at their annual meeting in 1845, declared that Roman Catholic baptism was not Christian baptism, therefore, inferring that rebaptism would be in order. Professor Charles Hodge of Princeton Seminary countered that this action was “in opposition to all previous practice and to the principles of every other protestant church.” Hodge acknowledged the errors of Catholicism but he also observed, “there is not a Church on earth which teaches the doctrine of the Trinity more accurately, thoroughly, or minutely, according to the orthodoxy of the Reformed and Lutheran churches, than the church of Rome…they teach the doctrine of the atonement far more fully and accurately than multitudes of professedly orthodox Protestants.” The Catholic Church is “a part of the visible church on earth” and rebaptism is out of order. (See Charles Hodge, “Review of the General Assembly,” 1845) Hodge’s basic argument was the insoluble connection between baptism and belief – if Catholics are Christian then one cannot pronounce their baptism illegitimate through rebaptism. 

***

Ewald M. Plass’s magisterial 1667-page volume, What Luther Says (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959) — I have it in my own library — provides more evidence. He writes, himself, on p. 128:

. . . while scoring papal innovations, Luther never ceased to confess indebtedness to the Church of Rome and to regard it as a Christian organization. He expresses this clearly in a Church Postil sermon on John 15:26 – 16:4, in connection with John 16:3. Between the Church of Rome and the Lutheran Church a relation exists similar to that which once existed between the Jewish Church and the apostolic Christian Church . . .


I found this sermon online. It dates from 1522. Here is an excerpt, with his “ecumenical” sentiments, in-between a mountain of hostility and his usual lies about the Catholic Church:

28. Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them. . . .

32. Thus we say to the papists: We grant you, indeed, the name and office, and regard these as holy and precious, for the office is not yours, but has been established by Christ and given to the Church without regard for and distinction of the persons who occupy it. Therefore, whatever is exercised through this office as the institution of Christ, and in his name and that of the Church, is at all times right and proper, even though ungodly and unbelieving men may participate. We must distinguish between the office and the person exercising it, between rightful use and abuse. The name of God and of Christ is always holy in itself; but it may be abused and blasphemed. So also, the office of the Church is holy and precious, but the person occupying it may be accursed and belong to the devil.  . . .

43. We admit that the papists also exercise the appointed offices of the Church, baptize, administer the sacrament etc., when they observe these things as the institution of Christ, in the name of Christ and by virtue of his command (just as in the Church we must regard as right and efficacious the offices of the Church and baptism administered by heretics), . . .


Plass, in the same vein, cites Luther, writing in 1533:

By His miraculous power God nonetheless preserved under the pope, first, Holy Baptism, then, in the pulpit, the text of the holy Gospel in the language of each country, thirdly, the forgiveness of sins and absolution in both private confession and the public services; fourthly, the holy Sacrament of the altar . . . fifthly, the calling and ordaining to the pastorate, the ministry, or the care of souls . . . finally, also prayer, the Psalter, the Lord’s Prayer, the Creed, and the Ten Commandments; likewise, many good hymns and songs . . . Therefore Christ with His Holy Spirit surely was with his own and sustained Christian faith in them . . . (p. 129, #375)


Luther’s exposition of Galatians 1:2 in his 1531 commentary is also quoted by Plass:

. . . even though it is in the midst of wolves and robbers, that is, spiritual tyrants, it nevertheless is the church. Although the city of Rome is worse than Sodom and Gomorrah, yet Baptism, the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, the reading (vox) and text of the Gospel, Holy Scriptures, the ministry, the name of Christ, and the name of God remain in her. (p. 130, #375A)


***

Selected further comments from Austin, from the combox below:


I know that I will worship at the foot of the Father with many Catholics, but I am convinced, from the bottom of my heart, that the doctrines of Rome are a hindrance to saving faith.

In his conversion story (yes Dave I read your conversion story in “Surprised by Truth”) Dave mentions participating in pro-life ministries with Catholics. I’m very involved in pro-life ministries as well, and I can say that I have met some absolutely fantastic Catholic people that I’m happy to call friends! My beliefs regarding saving faith come from a place of love and concern for the welfare of their souls, and not from some petty desire to win an argument.

I’ve dialogued with dozens of Catholic College students, priests, chaplains, and lay people, and not one of them has called me “anti-Catholic” for my beliefs. If anything, they appreciate my honesty. False ecumenism never helped anyone.

***

[replying to Adomnan]  You apparently just picked up these ideas somewhere rather casually in the course of your life. Why can’t you drop them just as casually now that you see they’re mistaken? And you must see they are mistaken, if you’re a rational man. Why this obstinate loyalty to falsehood and sophistry?”

I checked out when I read that. I offered you a fairly in depth (at the very least not cursory) exegesis of the text and you respond with that? Have you actually studied semiotics? Have you actually spent any time studying Hermeneutics? Of course your answer will be a resounding “Why yes I have! As every good Roman Catholic has!”

Give me a break. You can’t even understand how a “red herring” fallacy works, as evinced by your accusation that I commit a red herring fallacy when arguing for imputation.  

This is why I don’t discuss these issues on blogs or Youtube. Silly papists like you come out of the wood work making cavalier claims with absolutely nothing to substantiate them. Where is your Magisterial interpretation of this passage? So far all I’ve seen is a laymen make assertions. Where is the infallible interpretation? Can you point me to it please?

Fortunately, not all Catholic exegetes are as dense as you are…see Fitzmeyer [sic] and Thomas H. Tobin.

I’m out. Its been fun, but not that fun.

Go ahead boys, claim victory. Anyone can read the comments and determine for themselves which side can actually exegete a text.

***

Dave, I have found a venue through which we can debate this issue publicly if you are willing. It would be via skype and it would be moderated by a third party. If you agree, we can pursue (albeit we’ll need to refine it a bit) the topic that you’ve brought up in this thread. This will *not* be a written debate.

If everything you claim is true, this should be a “slam dunk” for you.

If the debate format is too intimidating we can go with a dialogue format. I’ll let you choose.

I simply don’t have the time to respond to this thread as you’ve chosen to update it every couple of hours. I would much rather focus in on one Reformer and discuss their particular views in depth. I think the discussion would be very beneficial to both sides.

I’m no James White, so this one should be very easy for you.


Hi Austin,

I have no interest whatever in an oral debate; never have; and nine years ago I explained why, in great depth.

I made a one-time exception in this exchange, to my usual policy of not debating theology with those of an anti-Catholic theological outlook.

It has not gone well, and has become ugly and acrimonious: just as it always has in the past. That was the reason I adopted my policy in 2007, and this present farce has given me no reason at all to doubt the wisdom and prudence of that choice. It’s the same old same old.

I may make a few more responses if you choose to add more comments here (especially regarding matters of historical fact), but essentially I’m done with this.

Now you’ve chosen to get in with James Swan: a guy who tries to refute my papers without even mentioning my name or providing a link, so that folks can read the other side. If I comment on his combox to try to present another side, he deletes all my comments. He’s also on record claiming that I suffer from psychosis.

Despite all that, you’re free to give your opinions here as you wish. And others are free to interact with you if they so choose. Like I said, I may even still chime in now and then.

Facebook is a different story. I exercise a very strict moderation policy there because I want amiability and a congenial atmosphere at almost all costs, in order to be able to share my writings, and allow discussion on them: especially for inquirers, seekers, and those considering becoming Catholics.

Acrimonious “debate” doesn’t achieve those ends. Thus, you’ve been blocked on Facebook.

***

James Swan pontificated with his two cents:

Austin,

We are not the anti-Catholics. Rather it is those belonging to the Roman sect and defend her that are the true anti-catholics. They attack the universal church by attempting to subject us all to the Roman papacy. If Rome ever repented of the heresy of the infallible papacy, perhaps she could be part of the catholic church again. If she repented of this authority claim, true constructive dialog would perhaps be possible. Till then, we can only pray for those enslaved and blinded by the papacy, that God will have mercy on them, and also stand ready to demonstrate that neither the facts of Scripture or the facts of history support their worldview. That they are willing to invoke Luther to support their cause shows you to what extremes Romanists are capable of. 


Absolutely classic, textbook  anti-Catholicism . . . Please pray for those trapped by this insidious thinking and (in Swan’s and Reed’s case) also a pronounced hostility and derision.

So you are choosing to decline my challenge to public debate?

If you change your mind I will be ready to accept. Consider this a standing challenge.

Hardly, since I made an exception to my rule of not debating anti-Catholics for this exchange. You chose to descend into silliness, rabbit trails, evasiveness, and insults (extending the latter even to my friends in the combox). Your choice.

This was a debate (or, more accurately, could have been, if you had stayed on topic). That is a fact. I expressed what I wanted to express, and as far as I am concerned, have established my contention beyond rational argument.

Just because you are obsessed with oral debate (precisely as your hero “Dr.” [?] White is), doesn’t change that fact.

I explained nine years ago why I regard written debate as vastly superior to oral debate, and why I think the latter is mostly a farce and a three-ring circus. I have stuck by that principle at all times, and will indefinitely into the future.

I turned down your hero White three times (1995, 2001, and 2007) — he wants to debate me even though he thinks I am an idiot and an imbecile: odd! –, and you think I would do an oral debate with you?

You have forfeited your opportunity to engage in an intelligent discussion with me.

I would refuse even if I had no principled objection to oral debate (nor to debate with anti-Catholics, which has been universally farcical, these past 18 years).

After your performance above, I wouldn’t consider that for a half-second, as I seek to find the most able of theological opponents to interact with, not the least able and most insulting ones.

Austin wrote on the same tired thread at Boors All (6-12-13):

The hilarious thing is, the RC apologist will insist on “development of doctrine” to explain away flagrant contradictions within their own communion, but they’re not willing to apply that same standard when reading any Protestant works. Just one more double standard.


***

Austin was still taking potshots on another Boors All thread (17-18 June 2013):

The problem with interacting with this particular “apologist” is his unwillingness or inability to actually exegete the writings of the reformers he quotes. Its nothing more than shameless proof-texting. And its ALL intended to bolster the infantile “anti-Catholic” designation for ANYONE who disagrees with Rome on certain key issues!

There are times when he omits a sentence in the middle of the paragraph! I tried pointing that out, but to no avail….I guess only ”anti-Catholics” bother with trivialities like context.


***


Last updated on 19 June 2013.



***** 

2017-05-28T18:47:29-04:00

Books at ShrineofIC

Steven R. McEvoy is a very avid reader and book lover, who runs the blog, Book Reviews and More. He asked me for an interview to be posted there, and plans on doing individual reviews of many of my books. Thanks so much Steven, for the exposure and interest! Here is the interview itself, from my files. His questions will be in blue.The interview (with a few more comments by him) is posted on Steven’s Book Reviews and More site and also the Catholic Dads page.

* * * * *

1. If you had not become a writer and apologist what do you think you would be doing for a living?

*

I have no idea what other serious (i.e., skilled) career I could have pursued. I have known I was called to apologetics in some capacity since 1981, when I was an evangelical Protestant. Prior to that I had many career ideas: none very definitive. Yet I did have sort of a “second career” as a delivery person in several capacities: quick delivery of small packages and a route in which I delivered payroll to companies. I did this (quite enjoyably) for ten years: from 1991 till 2001, when the company I worked for went out of business: at which time I began full-time Catholic apologetics, almost by default, in a “nothing to lose” scenario.
*What else was I to do at age 43, with four children (my fourth had been born two weeks earlier)? I gave it a shot (making my situation known on my website), and it has worked, though I’m in no danger of cracking the Fortune 500 anytime soon.

*

2. How did you go about pursuing your career as a writer and apologist?

*

From 1981 I started spontaneously writing short tracts, defending and sharing evangelical (Arminian) Christianity. In particular, I was trained “on the spot” at the Ann Arbor Art Fair all through the 1980s (near the University of Michigan campus). From 1985-1989 I was a campus missionary / evangelist (University of Michigan-Dearborn and Wayne State University): supported (well, theoretically . . .) by my own churches, but mostly by friends. That collapsed in 1989.
*I was 31, disenchanted, a seeming total failure in my chosen occupation and most important goal in my life, and in a sort of existential crisis: not knowing what my future held in store, since all I really cared about was apologetics and evangelism.

*

But God had plans for me; something I couldn’t anticipate at all was about to happen. Within a few months I started pondering Catholicism, as a result of some Catholic friends, who were vocal participants of an ecumenical discussion group in my home. By October 1990: exactly a year after the demise of my campus ministry, I was persuaded of the truth of Catholicism, as the fullness of the Christian faith.

*
As a result, I started writing “treatises” about big topics, and Catholic “distinctives”: points of controversy between Catholics and Protestants. I would produce these every few months: collecting all the information I could find, from my growing personal library, in order to explain Catholicism to my Protestant friends. After several of those, my Catholic friends suggested that I compile them into a book.

*

I did so in 1994: a 750-page monster! I decided to shorten that and make it a more compact presentation, and this was my first book: A Biblical Defense of Catholicism: completed in May 1996. As usual with aspiring authors, I was rejected by several publishers (one of these later came to me and is now interested in publishing my books). Fed up with that, I self-published in 2001 and sold over 1600 copies in less than two years: simply from advertising on my website.

*
But in 2003 I decided to make one last-ditch effort to solicit “official” Catholic publishers. The editor at Sophia Institute Press, Todd Aglialoro, took an interest in my work, and I signed a contract with Sophia for this book, which they published (only slightly modified) in the same year. It was followed by three more titles by 2009, and another (The Quotable Newman) is to appear by June 2012.

*

I also wrote the apologetics inserts (uncredited!) for The Catholic Answer Bible in 2002. This was revised as The New Catholic Answer Bible (co-author, Dr. Paul Thigpen) in 2005. It is my best-selling book, but alas (often to my dismay), it was not a royalty contract.

*

Also central (indeed, indispensable) to my career was my website, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, begun in February 1997. Thirdly, I had several published articles from 1993 onwards, in The Catholic Answer, This Rock, Envoy Magazine, and a few other print publications, as well as being included in the conversion bestseller, Surprised by Truth (edited by Patrick Madrid) in 1994.

*

I just wrote, wrote, and wrote, concentrating particularly on biblical indications of Catholicism, and debates with Protestants. By 2000 I already had well over 500 separate web pages and articles posted online. Now it is more than 2500, with still no end in sight. I’ve literally been writing Catholic apologetics constantly since 1996, and semi-regularly all the way back to late 1990.
*
3. What advice do you wish an apologist and writer had passed on to you early in your career, which you only learned through experience?
*
I would urge anyone to not depend primarily on donations and promises of people (or even of congregations or parishes), in order to pursue an evangelistic and apologetics apostolate, and to never quit a full-time job (as I did) without something else in place. This was a primary reason for the collapse of my first full-time ministry as a Protestant. I was full of youthful idealism and my usual nonconformism, and was certain of my calling.
*
I think the validity of the latter has subsequently been borne out by my success in getting published, and in much positive “testimony” feedback received. But I was far too naïve, in believing that evangelicals would “put their money where their mouth was,” so to speak, without the coercion of begging and pleading with them for support: a thing I have always steadfastly refused to do. I was far too unrealistic as well; so I learned the hard way, and it was an extremely painful lesson and odyssey: my trial by fire. My resolve and faith was tested mightily. That’s a good and very helpful thing in the long run, but not always fun when we are going through it.
*

When I began my full-time Catholic apologist career, I had book royalties as a growing source of income, and also supported myself with additional jobs where necessary (including three years as a moderator on The Coming Home Network Internet forum). This is what I would tell anyone else: do your writing / apologetics part-time until you are absolutely sure (financially) that you are able to strike out and do the work full-time. If it’s meant to be, it will be. I truly believe that, and have experienced it myself.

*

In any event, it’s extremely difficult to be a full-time Catholic apologist: especially without radio and television, affiliation with major organizations (like Catholic Answers), frequent strong solicitation of funds, or being on the lecture circuit. I’ve managed to barely do it without the help of almost all of those things (I’ve done a dozen or so radio appearances and have loose affiliations with many groups, mostly contractual).
*
4. Who were some of your biggest supporters and contributors to your early success?
*
Apart from the encouragement of several friends, I am very grateful to Fr. Peter  Stravinskas, whom I met at the Franciscan University of Steubenville in 1992, and gave some of my writings on Martin Luther. He took an interest in them, and as a result, I was published in his magazine, The Catholic Answer, in January 1993 (my first published article). Five more of my articles were later published in that periodical. Scott Hahn encouraged my work and said nice things, and wrote a Foreword in 2002 to my second book, More Biblical Evidence for Catholicism. Patrick Madrid: who accepted my conversion story for Surprised by Truth, played a key role. Marcus Grodi published several of my articles in The Coming Home Newsletter, starting in 1996.
*
Above all, I am indebted to Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. (Servant of God), who recommended my work (Foreword to A Biblical Defense of Catholicism). He was my mentor from the beginning, since I was attending his catechist classes even before I was a Catholic.
*
5. What were some of your favorite authors in your teen years who helped shape you?
*
No one “shaped” me to any extent in those years (in a lasting way), since I had no interest in Christian theology at all till age 19. When I did start taking an interest, C. S. Lewis was the one writer who had a profound and lasting influence on me. He has been my favorite writer ever since, though possibly now tied with G. K. Chesterton. The most influential work of his in my life at this early stage, was Mere Christianity.
*
6. What does your writing process look like? Take us through the steps from idea to publishing?
*
Rather than being a particular formal process, it’s more of a motivation-driven thing for me. What I regard as my “secret” for the large amount of material I put out is my determination at most times to “follow my muse” (to use an analogy to music composers). I have the luxury of being able to write, for the most part, about whatever happens to interest me at any given time.
*
Secondly, several of my books were drawn from efforts I initially undertook on my website: often as a result of challenges and subsequent debates. I respond readily to challenges, and find that they are a great stimulus and motivation to both think about and respond to issues raised. Later I tighten up and compile these efforts into books.
*

Other projects are more of the nature of editing or organizing projects. My Chesterton and Newman quotations books were labors of love, that resulted from my desire to share with others the writers I love: who have taught me so much. Collecting quotes is an easy and enjoyable thing for me because I love to compile and organize (desires also suited for the task of a webmaster).

*

The most difficult part in my case is the initial organization and outline, which I find tedious and even a bit stressful. Once that is done, I find it far easier to flesh out the idea of a book within the framework. I don’t know why that is. I liked writing my books, The Catholic Verses and The One-Minute Apologist a lot, because both were initially ideas originated by my editor, Todd Aglialoro. Thus, he came up with the initial outline: the part that I like least in the whole process. He was also immensely helpful in the organizational aspects of an upcoming book, 100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura (Catholic Answers: 2012).
*

Once the idea, goal, and outline is in place, it’s simply a matter of my relentless drive for completion (flowing from perfectionism and being a self-starter) kicking in. Basically, then, it is a three-step process: 1) organize the framework, 2) allowing a free flow of ideas to occur, that come from previous study and reflection, and 3) the drive to finish the project.

*
I don’t have difficulty writing at all. I’ve never suffered from writer’s block (thank heavens). It just flows (as fast as I can type), because ideas are in my head, and I seem to have no particular difficulty expressing them in words. Whether the results are worthwhile is, of course, for others to judge, but it’s not a hard thing for me to do. I think it’s a lot easier to write non-fiction.
*
Coming up with a good work of fiction, on the other hand, is a whole different ballgame. I’ve never done that, but I can imagine the difficulties and challenges that one would run into: of a very different nature from theological non-fictional writing (character development, descriptiveness, plot, evoking images, psychological complexities, etc.).
*
7. What current projects are you working on or are in the back burner in some stage of development?
*
I’d like to put together a new volume devoted to apologetic arguments for the Church (i.e., Catholic ecclesiology) and the papacy, drawn from many existing papers. This is one of an ongoing series of books devoted to one major theme or sub-category in Catholic apologetics. I’d also like to compile some historic (public domain) apologetics along the same lines. I am just about to commence this project.
*

Another book likely in the works in the future (a publisher idea), is one devoted to the “hard sayings” of the Bible: including issues that atheists bring up: supposed contradictions, etc. Much of this will be drawn from existing papers as well, along with a lot of new, fresh material.

*

8. Which of your books is your favorite and why?

*

The Quotable Newman, because of Cardinal Newman’s huge personal influence on my conversion and my theological approach. I am very excited about sharing his superb thoughts with others, and I hope that this will become the “standard” Newman quotes book, and have a wide readership, including not just Catholics, but academics and theologians of all stripes, Anglicans, those who appreciate great English prose, and others beyond the usual Catholic apologetics niche market.
*
Since I only edited that book, I’ll also mention one of my own (self-penned) writings: The Catholic Verses. It’s a favorite of mine because it reflects most closely what I have often done in my online dialogues: interacting with opposing views and doing a “compare and contrast” with Catholicism. I always like to have that “edge” provided by competing views and the challenges therein, in my writing. I love history of ideas, historical theology, comparative theology, and the art of the dialogue (especially Socratic dialogue).
*
9. Which of your books was the hardest to write and why?
*
The One-Minute Apologist, by a wide margin, because it is very difficult to effectively condense complex and multi-faceted theological ideas into two pages and a standard Summa-like format, as I had to do in that book (and I am not known for brevity: to put it mildly!). Consequently, I am probably also proudest of this book, since I worked so hard on it.
*
10. Have you ever considered writing fiction? If so is it a project we might see in the near future?
*
Not at all. I’m just not a fiction person. I don’t read it, and certainly would never try to write it. The closest I come to fiction-writing is a series of Christmas poems and some fictional dialogues I have written, a la Plato and Peter Kreeft. I have nothing against fiction; it is strictly a personal preference of what I like the most. I think fiction is supremely important to building up and conveying a worldview and the most important things in life. People resonate with a story.
*

I see this (I hasten to add!) as a “deficiency” in myself: not at all in the medium of fiction. I take in fiction by means of filmed drama. I’m a great fan of cinema. Given the choice, I love the dramatization more so than written descriptions: due, in part, to time considerations, and partly due to my reading relatively slowly.

*

11. Do you use a playlist when writing? Are certain books written while predominantly listing to the same music?
*
No. Do some writers do that? That’s very interesting. When I am working on anything where I have to think a lot and be careful, I play no music at all. I usually only play it (and I’m a huge music collector and appreciator) when I am editing or doing tedious, time-consuming work of uploading a lot of necessary additions, and so forth.
*
12. If you could only recommend 10 books to a reader looking to be a well rounded and whole person what books would you suggest?
*

Well, I have a “Desert Island Top Ten Catholic Books List” which is confined to theology and has no fiction, and isn’t exactly what you ask, but it is close enough, and shows my own preferences. All of these have been hugely influential in my own life, and I think they are very important books, that would be of spiritual and educational benefit for anyone: though the Newman titles are quite “heavy” reading and not to everyone’s taste. No particular order . . .

*

Orthodoxy, G. K. Chesterton
Screwtape Letters, C. S. Lewis
The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, Louis Bouyer
Evangelical is Not Enough, Thomas Howard
The Imitation of Christ, Thomas a Kempis
Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman
Christianity for Modern Pagans:  Pascal’s Pensees, Blaise Pascal and Peter Kreeft
The Spirit of Catholicism, Karl Adam
An Essay in Aid of a Grammar of Assent, Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman
St. Thomas Aquinas: “The Dumb Ox”, G. K. Chesterton
*
13. In many ways you are a modern renaissance man: philosopher, educator, researcher, student, author and more. Very few people today are as well rounded as you are. To what do you attribute this?
*
I strongly disagree with that far too kind assessment (but thanks). I’m simply a lay “popularizer” (not a scholar) with a wide range of interests. Why do I have these interests? I don’t know, except for (I think) a strong intellectual curiosity and drive to find truth wherever it leads. What ultimately causes even the desire for those things is a mystery, but it has to go back to God somehow. I passionately love the world of ideas, and in particular, history, theology, and philosophy. Ironically, in college, I majored in none of these (having majored in avocational music in high school), and chose sociology, because I was fascinated with the study of human beings and why they behave the way they do, but I have studied all quite a bit on my own.
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14. I once had a university professor state that the true goal of a university education should be to teach one to learn how to think. What would you state should be the goal of higher education and why?
*
His is close to my own view: how to think and analyze, and how to cultivate a critical mind, able to discern between good and bad arguments and logic, and truth and falsity. But beyond that (and beyond how most secular universities approach learning today), the Christian must also submit that learning is about truth and attaining to a complete, consistent worldview, which we think, of course, is Christianity. Truth and beauty are also objectively ascertained in things like science and the arts: things not directly theological. The true, the good, and the beautiful are the goals to be sought in any education.
*
15. Many of your books are available in ebook format. But with eBooks come the distribution of them through torrents and other illegal means; is this a concern for you, both as an author?
*
There is not much I can do about it. I have to sell e-books in order to survive financially. I have added DRM protection to several recent ePub versions of my books that I have put together. But I haven’t discovered anyone illegally selling or distributing my books. I think my audience realizes that I have to sell books to stay afloat, so I don’t think many people are passing along my books and depriving me of sales. It’s one of those mixed-blessing scenarios that new technology brings about. But we can never go back to pre-Internet days. It’s too central to too many lives now.
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16. Some authors monitor torrent sites and have their publishers contact them to remove their content. Do you do so or have someone do so for you?
*
No to both questions.
*
17. What were some of your favorite books and authors when you were younger?
*
Well, again, this was a “pre-theological” period of my life. In those days (prior to 1977) I was interested in sports, biographies (I’ve always liked those), and books about mysteries: ESP, ghosts, telepathy, the “Chariots of the Gods” series, the Bermuda Triangle, the pyramids: things like that. I suppose my interest in the supernatural and the occult led me in some ways eventually into a serious Christianity: the more I learned about the latter. I had a curiosity about supernatural things (real or possible). That was the tie-in. I just needed to be properly taught about Christianity.
*
18. Who are some of your favorite authors to read now?
*
The “big three” are Lewis, Chesterton, and Newman. I was privileged to be able to read many books and lots of letters from the last two, in preparation for my books of quotations. I am also very fond of Malcolm Muggeridge, St. Augustine, Peter Kreeft, Thomas Howard, Kierkegaard, Erasmus, Pascal, and Alvin Plantinga, along with many of the apologists (Catholic and Protestant) writing today. Honorable mention goes to a great book called The Gravedigger Files, by Os Guinness (1983). In the vein of Lewis’s wonderful Screwtape Letters, this book by a brilliant evangelical thinker takes the concept of that classic one step further by applying a searing analysis to various pitfalls and shortcomings in modern Christianity, from a profoundly Christian and historically long-sighted sociological perspective (influenced a lot by the Lutheran sociologist Peter Berger). At the present time I am reading The Path Between the Seas: The Creation of the Panama Canal, 1870-1914, by David G. McCullough (1978). He’s an excellent historical writer. I also enjoy reading music biographies (particularly about The Beatles): a complete diversion from my usual work.
*
19. If you were stuck on a desert island and could only have 10 books to read again and again, what books would you want with you?
*
I’ll appeal back to my answer for #12! But #1, beyond any of the books mentioned, has to be the Bible.
*
20. What advice would you give to young aspiring authors and artists particularly those looking to have their art reflect their faith?
*

I would suggest that they “follow their muse” and express their opinions and their art (as the case may be) in ways that can appeal to the culture they primarily write to, without compromising their faith. This was the recommendation of Vatican II and the example of St. Paul’s evangelistic methodology on Mars Hill in Athens (finding common ground with his hearers) and advice of “I have become all things to all men so that I might by any means save some of them” almost 2000 years ago. Our task is to make old truths fresh and appealing. Christian truth is just as true now as it has ever been. Being “old” does not detract from that at all. “Chronological snobbery” (C. S. Lewis’s delightful term) is a lie.*

Nor does Christian writing and art have to be explicitly theological or “preachy” in order to be profound and reflective of Christianity. All truth is God’s truth: as the proverb says. Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings is suffused with Christianity throughout, while never mentioning it at all (as such). Beauty is an objective thing, grounded in God. Our task is to use to the best of our ability, the talents granted to us by God’s grace and design. I try to keep in mind the “three E’s” in my writing, and would urge others to, also: our writing as Christians ought to be “entertaining, edifying, and educational”: appealing and pleasing respectively to the heart, soul, and mind.

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2023-11-30T15:44:11-04:00

Cover (549x832)

 [completed and published at Lulu on 6 February 2012: 246 pages]

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[cover design by Dave and Judy Armstrong]

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— to purchase, go to the bottom of page —

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

Dedication (p. 3)

Introduction (p. 5) [read below]

Bibliography and Abbreviations (p. 9) [see below]

Brief Descriptions of Apologists (p. 15) [read below]

Classic Biblical Apologetics Listed by Scripture Passages (p. 27)

Index of Scripture Passages (p. 233)

Index of Topics (p. 241)

INTRODUCTION
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The present volume came about as a result of reflection upon two great loves of mine: biblical apologetics in defense of the Catholic faith, and compilations of great historical Catholic quotations and arguments. My overwhelming methodological emphasis, as a full-time apologist these past ten years, is on the former, as is readily seen in the titles of many of my books, such as A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (Sophia Institute Press, 2003), The Catholic Verses (Sophia, 2004), and Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths (Sophia, 2009). My website (now a blog) online since 1997, is entitled “Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.”

*

Also among my books are compilations of the quotations of Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman and G. K. Chesterton: The Quotable Newman (Sophia, 2012) and The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton (Saint Benedict Press, 2009).

As I pondered these two strains of what I like to do, writing-wise, I developed a desire to start compiling some historic Catholic apologetics that centered on biblical argumentation, as a counter to the Protestant emphasis (sola Scriptura), and came up with the idea of “post-Protestant Catholic biblical apologetics” that could be collected from online versions (a lot less typing!), since it is all public domain material.

In this way I could continue working in both areas that I really enjoy, all in one new project; and complement the quotations I have already collected. Cardinal Newman mostly concentrated on Anglicanism, insofar as he wrote (relatively little) about comparative exegesis, whereas Chesterton didn’t write biblical apologetics much at all, and was far more interested in opposing the ideas of secularism and agnosticism and dealing with Protestantism from a cultural and historical standpoint.

The person I initially had in mind when pondering this book, was St. Francis de Sales, whose Catholic Controversy is a wonderfully insightful exercise in biblical apologetics, specifically against Calvinists (multiple thousands of whom he won back to the Catholic faith through his tireless efforts). This great saint and apologist will be cited frequently in this book (probably more than any other).

All in all, I shall cite twelve classic Catholic authors, and categorize the arguments or biblical commentary in order of the biblical books. Multiple topics often appear under one Bible passage, and the Index of Topics at the end (69 total) is very handy to locate various subjects. 228 biblical passages are featured (including 50 from the Old Testament).

Only excerpts that utilize directly biblical argumentation will be used. And all or virtually all references to Catholic magisterial sources will be omitted, so that Protestant readers can observe Catholic arguments solely devoted to the text of the Bible: whether positively presenting a Catholic position, or opposing an erroneous Protestant doctrine allegedly supported by the same Bible.

I hope and pray that readers will enjoy discovering and learning from this wonderful treasure-trove of historic Catholic apologetics, as much as I enjoyed locating these precious gems and compiling them in some kind of accessible order.

I intend for this book to be a very practical aid in apologetic outreach, and a reference source. It is essentially a “Classic Catholic Apologetic Commentary”: but devoted to the post-Protestant period up through the early 20th century, rather than the patristic period, or the age of St. Thomas Aquinas and the Scholastics, as we often see in other similar works. Perhaps it can fill a certain “time period” void in the apologetic literature.

BIBLIOGRAPHY AND ABBREVIATIONS
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[chronologically by death dates of the primary authors; sources will be indicated in the text by the abbreviated name of the author and number of book corresponding to those below, with page number also]
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[Linked works (by title) are available to read online in their entirety, or in a few cases, to a great extent]
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St. Thomas More (1478-1535) [More]
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[1] Sir Thomas More: A Selection from His Works, as Well in Prose as in Verse (edited by W. Jos. Walker; Baltimore: Fielding Lucas, Jr., 1841)
[2] Life and Writings of Sir Thomas More: Lord Chancellor of England and Martyr Under Henry VIII(edited by Thomas Edward Bridgett; London: Burns & Oates, 1891)
[3] The Wisdom and Wit of Blessed Thomas More (edited by Thomas Edward Bridgett; London: Burns & Oates, 1892)
[4] Thomas More (Christopher Hollis; Milwaukee: Bruce Publishing Company, 1934)
[5] Erasmus, Tyndale, and More (William Edward Campbell; Milwaukee: Bruce Publishing Company, 1949)
[6] The Essential Thomas More (edited by James J. Greene and John P. Dolan; New York: Mentor-Omega Books, 1967)
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Desiderius Erasmus (1466-1536) [Era.]
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[1] Erasmus-Luther: Discourse on Free Will (edited and translated by Ernst F. Winter; New York: Frederick Ungar Publishing Co., Inc., 1961)
[2] Collected Works of Erasmus, Vol. 76: Controversies (Hyperaspistes; edited by Charles Trinkaus; translated by Peter Macardle and Clarence H. Miller; University of Toronto Press, 1999)
*
Francisco Suárez (1548-1617) [Suar.]
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[1] Defense of the Catholic and Apostolic Faith Against the Errors of Anglicanism (translated by Peter L. P. Simpson, 2011; online)
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St. Francis de Sales (1567-1622) [FdS]
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[1] The Catholic Controversy (translated by H. B. Canon MacKey; third revised edition, London: Burns & Oates, Ltd. / New York: Benziger Brothers, 1909)
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Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) [Pas.]
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[1] Miscellaneous Writings (translated by M. P. Faugère; London: Longman, Brown, Green, and Longmans, 1849)
[2] Thoughts [Pensées] (translated by W. F. Trotter, c. 1910; reprinted by New York: E. P. Dutton & Company, Inc., 1958)
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Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet (1627-1704) [Bos.]
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[2] A Conference on the Authority of the Church (with Calvinist Minister John Claude; Baltimore: John Murphy, 1842)
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Nicholas Cardinal Wiseman (1802-1865) [Wise.]
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William Bernard Ullathorne (1806-1889) [Ull.]
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Robert Hugh Benson (1871-1914) [Ben.]
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[1] The Religion of the Plain Man (London: Burns & Oates, 1906)
[2] The Friendship of Christ (London: Longmans, Green, and Co., 1912)
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James Cardinal Gibbons (1834-1921) [Gib.]
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[1] The Faith of Our Fathers (Baltimore: John Murphy Company, 93rd revised and enlarged edition, 1917)
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Ferdinand Prat, S. J. (1857-1938) [Prat]
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[1] The Theology of St Paul, Vol. 1 (translated from the 11th French edition by John L. Stoddard; Westminster, Maryland: The Newman Bookshop, 1952; originally 1923)
[2] The Theology of St Paul, Vol. 2 (translated from the 10th French edition by John L. Stoddard; Westminster, Maryland: The Newman Bookshop, 1952; originally 1923) 
 *
Karl Adam (1876-1966) [Adam]
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[1] The Spirit of Catholicism (translated by Dom Justin McCann; Garden City, New York: Doubleday Image, 1954 [originally 1924] )
***

BRIEF DESCRIPTIONS OF APOLOGISTS

[mostly from Wikipedia and the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia]
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St. Thomas More (1478-1535)
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English lawyer, social philosopher, author, statesman and noted Renaissance humanist; counselor to King Henry VIII of England and, for three years, Lord Chancellor. He wrote his famous political commentary Utopia in 1516, and tracts in opposition to the teachings of Martin Luther and William Tyndale. More refused to accept Henry VIII as Supreme Head of the Church of England: a status the king had been given by a compliant parliament through the Act of Supremacy of 1534. He was imprisoned in 1534 for his refusal to take the oath required by the First Succession Act, because the act disparaged the power of the Pope and Henry’s marriage to Catherine of Aragon. In 1535, he was tried for treason, convicted on perjured testimony and beheaded. Many historians argue that his conviction for treason was unjust, and even among some Protestants his execution was viewed as heavy-handed. Erasmus saluted him as one “whose soul was more pure than any snow, whose genius was such as England never had.” Jonathan Swift said he was “the person of the greatest virtue this kingdom ever produced”. G. K. Chesterton wrote that “he may come to be counted as the greatest Englishman, or at least the greatest historical character in English history.” And Winston Churchill stated that he “stood forth as the defender of all that was finest in the medieval outlook.” The Catholic Church beatified him in 1886 and declared him a saint in 1935.
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 Desiderius Erasmus (1466-1536)
[on the cover]
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Dutch Renaissance humanist, Catholic priest, and perhaps the foremost humanist and most eminent Catholic Bible scholar of his time. Using humanist techniques for working on texts, he prepared very important and historically influential new Latin and Greek editions of the New Testament, and wrote influential works such as The Praise of Folly, Colloquies, and Enchiridion militis Christiani, (Handbook of the Christian Soldier).Erasmus always remained committed to reforming the scandals and moral lapses among Catholics from within, rather than splitting from it; accepted and defended the Church’s teachings, and was an obedient son of the Church: contrary to what many seem to think. In this respect, one is reminded of similar false rumors that have always swirled around Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman. Erasmus had been somewhat sympathetic to Martin Luther at first (and was even thought by many to be among his party) but quickly grew disenchanted with him and his movement, once he saw the direction it was heading, and the heretical and schismatic tendencies within it. Hence, on 6 September 1524, he wrote to Luther’s close friend and eventual successor, Philip Melanchthon:
*
I know nothing of your church; at the very least it contains people who will, I fear, overturn the whole system and drive the princes into using force to restrain good men and bad alike. The gospel, the word of God, faith, Christ, and Holy Spirit – these words are always on their lips; look at their lives and they speak quite another language.
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His famous defense of free will (De libero arbitrio) was produced in 1524 and Luther responded with his Bondage of the Will the next year, along with the inevitable avalanche of personal insults. Erasmus replied in turn, in 1526 with his sharply critical — but reasoned and controlled — Hyperaspistes (A Warrior Shielding a Discussion of Free Will against The Enslaved Will). In 1533 he penned the treatise On Mending the Peace of the Church. Erasmus was heartbroken and perhaps crushed irreparably by the martyrdom of St. Thomas More, with whom he was very close. He died almost exactly a year later.
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 Francisco Suárez (1548-1617)
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Spanish Jesuit priest, philosopher and theologian, one of the leading figures of the School of Salamanca movement, and generally regarded among the greatest scholastics after Thomas Aquinas. He wrote on a wide variety of subjects, producing a vast amount of work (his complete works in Latin amount to twenty-six volumes). Suárez’ writings include treatises on law, the relationship between Church and State, metaphysics, and theology. He is considered the godfather of International Law and his Disputationes metaphysicae were widely read in Europe during the seventeenth century. Suárez was regarded during his lifetime as being the greatest living philosopher and theologian, and given the nickname Doctor Eximius et Pius.  After his death his reputation grew still greater, and he had a direct influence on such leading philosophers and great thinkers as Hugo Grotius, René Descartes, and Gottfried Leibniz. Suárez tried to reconcile the doctrine of predestination with the freedom of the human will by saying that the predestination is consequent upon God’s foreknowledge of the free determination of man’s will, which is therefore in no way affected by the fact of such predestination, maintaining that, though all share in an absolutely sufficient grace, there is granted to the elect a grace which is so adapted to their peculiar dispositions and circumstances that they infallibly, though at the same time quite freely, yield themselves to its influence. This mediating system was known by the name of “congruism.”
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St. Francis de Sales (1567-1622)
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Bishop of Geneva. He worked to convert Protestants back to Catholicism, and was an accomplished preacher. He is known also for his writings on the topic of spiritual direction and spiritual formation, particularly Introduction to the Devout Life, and Treatise on the Love of God. St. Francis was known as a friend of the poor, a man of almost supernatural affability and understanding. He instituted catechetical instructions for the faithful, both young and old, made prudent regulations for the guidance of his clergy, and carefully visited the parishes scattered through the rugged mountains of his diocese. He reformed the religious communities. His goodness, patience and mildness became proverbial. He was a notably clear and gracious stylist in French, Italian and Latin. His Catholic Controversy (heavily featured in the present volume) originally consisted of leaflets he wrote as a young priest (27-29 years old) that the zealous missioner scattered among the inhabitants of Le Chablais in the beginning, when these people did not venture to come and hear him preach. They form a complete proof of the Catholic Faith. In the first part, he defends the authority of the Church, and in the second and third parts, the rules of faith, which were not observed by the heretical ministers. The primacy of St. Peter is amply vindicated. After four years of distributing these pamphlets, almost the entire population of Le Chablais (72,000) returned to the Catholic faith, after 60 years of adhering to Calvinism. His work in Catholic apologetics represents some of the most cogent arguments against Protestantism that has ever been written: perhaps unequaled to this day. He was canonized in 1665 and declared a Doctor of the Church in 1877.
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Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Mathematician, physicist, inventor, and Catholic philosopher.  Pascal’s earliest work was in the natural and applied sciences where he made important contributions to the study of fluids, clarified the concepts of pressure and vacuum, wrote in defense of the scientific method, and laid down the basis of hydraulics. He invented the mechanical calculator, and helped create two major new areas of research: projective geometry and probability theory: strongly influencing the development of modern economics and social science. Following a mystical experience in late 1654, he had his “second conversion”, and devoted himself mostly to philosophy and theology. His two most famous works date from this period: the Lettres provinciales and the Pensées. The latter (unfinished at his death) was to have been a sustained and coherent examination and defense of Catholic Christianity, with the original title Apologie de la religion Chrétienne (“Defense of the Christian Religion”). It is hailed as a landmark of French prose. He had elaborated an outline, and at intervals during his illness he jotted down notes, fragments, and meditations for his book. What Pascal’s plan was, can never be determined, despite the information furnished by Port Royal and by his sister. It is certain that his method of apologetics must have been at once rigorous and original; no doubt, he had made use of the traditional proofs — notably, the historical argument from prophecies and miracles. But as against adversaries who did not admit historical certainty, it was stroke of genius to produce a wholly psychological argument and, by starting from the study of the human soul, to arrive at God. Malcolm Muggeridge wrote of it: “I consider that it was a beneficient, if not miraculous, circumstance that Pascal was unable to proceed beyond the notes . . . Like a sublime kaleidoscope, Pascal presents us with thought after thought, all shining with truth as they come in mint condition from his brilliant mind” (A Third Testament; New York: Ballantine Books, 1976 , 60-61).
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Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet (1627-1704)
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Bishop of Meaux and theologian, renowned for his sermons and other addresses. He has been considered by many to be one of the most brilliant orators of all time and a masterly French stylist. He tried to win back the Huguenots to the Catholic Church. In 1668, he converted Turenne; in 1670, he published an Exposition de la foi catholique (An Exposition of the Doctine of the Catholic Church in Matters of Controversy), so moderate in tone that adversaries were driven to accuse him of having fraudulently watered down the Roman dogmas to suit a Protestant taste. Finally, in 1688, his great Histoire des variations des Églises protestantes (The History of the Variations of the Protestant Churches): perhaps the most brilliant of all his works, appeared. Few writers could have made the justification controversy interesting or even intelligible. His argument is simple: without rules, an organized society cannot hold together, and rules require an authorized interpreter. The Protestant churches had thrown over this interpreter; and Bossuet showed that, the longer Protestantism endured, the more the various sects within it varied on increasingly important points. The book is an encyclopedia history of such alterations of dogma. But for Bossuet and Catholics, “the truth which comes from God possesses from the first its complete perfection”, and from that it follows that variations means theological errors, since there are so many contradictions or omissions of legitimate apostolic tradition handed down through history. The Catholic Encyclopedia regards him as the greatest orator “who has ever appeared in the Christian pulpit — greater than Chrysostom and greater than Augustine; the only man whose name can be compared in eloquence with those of Cicero and of Demosthenes.”
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Nicholas Cardinal Wiseman (1802-1865)
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First Archbishop of Westminster. He attained distinction in the natural sciences as well as in dogmatic and scholastic theology; also in Syriac and other Oriental studies. Wiseman’s lectures on the relationship between religion and science were praised even by a critic as stern as Andrew Dickson White. In his highly influential A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom, White wrote that “it is a duty and a pleasure to state here that one great Christian scholar did honour to religion and to himself by quietly accepting the claims of science and making the best of them. . . . That man was . . . Cardinal Wiseman. The conduct of this pillar of the Roman Church contrasts admirably with that of timid Protestants, who were filling England with shrieks and denunciations.” He was also noted as a linguist — “he can speak with readiness and point”, wrote Cardinal Newman of him some years later, “in half-a-dozen languages, without being detected for a foreigner in any one of them”. In 1835 he began a course of lectures, addressed alike to Catholics and Protestants, which at once attracted large audiences, and from which, wrote a well-qualified critic, dated “the beginning of a serious revival of Catholicism in England.” He wrote, in the summer of 1839, a famous article in the Dublin Review, about St. Augustine and the Donatists, that drew a parallel between the Donatists and the Tractarians (Oxford Movement) with a convincing logic that placed many of the latter, in Newman’s famous words, “on their death-bed as regarded the Church of England.” Newman himself had been profoundly troubled by the article, and it largely initiated his journey to the Catholic Church. He wrote on 5 January 1840 (to J. W. Bowden): “Indeed he has fixed on our weak point . . . It is plainly necessary to stop up the leak in our boat which he has made, if we are to proceed.” Wiseman worked unceasingly to promote a cordial understanding between new converts and “old English” Catholics, and to make the Oxford neophytes at home in their new surroundings. Not only by personal intercourse with his fellow-countrymen, but by his frequent appearances on the lecture-platform, he did much to influence public opinion in favour of Catholics. His graceful eloquence, genial personality, and sympathetic voice and manner, enhanced the impression wrought by his intimate knowledge of the various subjects with which he dealt. His delivery was fluent and his style brilliant, and characterized by a command of poetic imagery in which probably few public speakers have surpassed or equaled him. His death evoked expressions of general sympathy from men of every class and every creed; and the practically unanimous voice of the press testified to the high place he had won for himself in the respect and affections of his fellow-countrymen.
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William Bernard Ullathorne (1806-1889)
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Benedictine monk and Bishop of Birmingham. His father was a direct descendant of St. Thomas More. He worked as a missionary in Australia for seven years. In 1870 he attended the Vatican Council. He lived to see his diocese thoroughly organized, with many new communities of men, the most famous of which was Cardinal Newman’s Congregation of Oratorians at Edgbaston. During his thirty-eight years tenure as bishop 67 new churches, 32 convents and nearly 200 mission schools were built. His chief written works are: The Endowments of Man (London, 1880); Groundwork of Christian Virtues (1882); Christian Patience (1886).; The Immaculate Conception (1855); History of Restoration of English Hierarchy (1871); The Döllingerites (1874); Answer to Gladstone’s ‘Vatican Decrees’ (1875); and a large number of sermons, pastorals, pamphlets, etc.
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Robert Hugh Benson (1871-1914)
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Benson was educated at Eton College and then studied classics and theology at Trinity College, Cambridge. In 1895, he was ordained a priest in the Church of England by his father, Edward White Benson, who was the then Archbishop of Canterbury. His father died suddenly in 1896 and he was sent on a trip to the Middle East to recover his own health. While there, he began to question the status of the Church of England and to consider the claims of the Catholic Church. On 11 September 1903, he was received into the Catholic Church. He was ordained as a Catholic priest in 1904, and declared a monsignor in 1911. Benson was a prolific writer, in various genres, such as historical and science fiction, children’s books, devotional works, plays, poetry, and apologetics. His titles in the latter category included The Religion of the Plain Man (1906), Paradoxes of Catholicism (1913), Christ in the Church: A Volume of Religious Essays (1911), and Non-Catholic Denominations (1910). He became the most popular Catholic novelist in England. A lecture he gave at the University of Notre Dame during a visit in 1914 was described in the Notre Dame Scholastic (25 April 1914) as follows: “Father Benson’s address was remarkable for the same facility of expression, cogency of reasoning, and forcefulness of phrasing, that have so characterized his novels and essays . . . He is a pleasing and powerful speaker, his reasoning being flawless and his presentation of fact lucid and unmistakable. He held the undivided attention of his audience throughout, sustaining interest rather by the charm of a magnetic personality and a virile argument than by rhetorical artifice or forensic sensationalism.”
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James Cardinal Gibbons (1834-1921)
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Bishop of Richmond from 1872 to 1877, and Archbishop of Baltimore from 1877 until his death in 1921. Gibbons was elevated to the cardinalate in 1886, the second American to receive that distinction. His vicariate in 1868, the entire state of North Carolina, had fewer than seven hundred Catholics. In his first four weeks there, Gibbons traveled almost a thousand miles, visiting towns and mission stations and administering the sacraments. He also befriended many Protestants, and preached at their churches. Gibbons made a number of converts, but finding the apologetical works available inadequate for their needs, he determined to write his own; Faith of Our Fathers (first edition, 1876) would prove the most popular apologetical work written by an American Catholic. He was an acquaintance of every president from Andrew Johnson to Warren G. Harding and an adviser to several of them. From 1869 to 1870, Gibbons attended the First Vatican Council and voted in favor of papal infallibility. He played a key role in the granting of papal permission for Catholics to join labor unions. His other writings included Our Christian Heritage (1889), The Ambassador of Christ (1896), Discourses and Sermons (1908), and A Retrospect of Fifty Years (1916). Gibbons’ style was simple but compelling. In 1917, President Theodore Roosevelt hailed Gibbons as the most venerated, respected, and useful citizen in America. In his later years he was seen as the public face of Catholicism in the United States, and on his death was widely mourned. H. L. Mencken, who reserved his harshest criticism for Christian ministers, wrote, in 1921 after Gibbons’ death, “He was a man of the highest sagacity, a politician in the best sense, and there is no record that he ever led the Church into a bog or up a blind alley.”
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Ferdinand Prat, S. J. (1857-1938)
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Professor of Scripture, philologist, exegete, consultant to the Pontifical Biblical Commission, and editor of the Etudes Bibliques. Many of the Commission’s decisions regarding modernism, leading up to its condemnation in 1907, were prepared in part by Fr. Prat. He served all through World War I as a chaplain, and his heroism and bravery under fire won him the coveted Cross of the Legion of Honor. His work, Jesus Christ, His Life, His Doctrine and His Work (1933; English translation, 1950), is regarded by many biblical scholars as the best life of Christ in existence. What might be called the culmination of his life’s work is The Theology of St. Paul, a studious, thorough, and enlightening work, published between 1908 and 1923. It has been translated into many languages. Even today, the formulas given by Fr. Prat can help non-specialists to grasp the originality of the Pauline texts, and he provided in its pages a very helpful definition of biblical theology: “Its duty is to collect the results of exegesis, . . . Exegesis studies particular texts, but does not trouble itself overmuch about their mutual relations. Its method is that of analysis. Biblical theology adds to analysis synthesis, for it must verify the results of the exegesis which has preceded it, before employing them to reconstruct a system, or, rather, a line of thought. . . . We may say, therefore, that biblical theology ends where scholastic theology begins, and begins where exegesis finishes.” Other volumes of his include The Bible and History, The Ten Commandments (both 1904), Origen, Theologian and Exegete (1907), and The Theology of St. John (1938). He also wrote over a hundred articles in biblical, scientific, and theological journals.
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Karl Adam (1876-1966)
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German priest (originally from Bavaria) and professor of theology: including moral and dogmatic theology. His books include: Tertullian’s Concept of the Church (1907), Eucharistic Teaching of St. Augustine (1908), Christ Our Brother, The Son of God, Roots of the Reformation, and One And Holy. He is best known for his 1924 work, The Spirit of Catholicism. It has been translated into French, Spanish, English, Italian, Portuguese, Polish, Dutch, Hungarian, Latin, Chinese and Japanese, and is still in print today. It was written to provide a calm, dispassionate, clearly written consideration of the fundamental concepts of the Catholic faith which would explain to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, exactly what the Catholic Church is, and is widely regarded as one of the finest introductions to the Catholic faith written in the 20th century. His writings have all revolved around the necessity for an understanding of our relationship with Christ Himself with particular stress on the doctrine of the Mystical Body. In 1934 he delivered a denunciation of the so-called German religion in an address on “The Eternal Christ”. This led to serious threats from the Nazis, but he held firm. Fr. Adam particularly specialized in St. Augustine’s theology, and had a great love for tradition and the Church fathers. His style captivated both readers and audiences, and he had great influence on Protestants, since he was concerned with ecumenism as well as apologetics. For years he worked tirelessly for a union of Christian faiths in one faith. This theme runs through all of his books. Fr. Adam loved young people and had an appealing personality, with a keen sense of humor. His house was open to all and his charity was well known.
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EXCERPTS FROM THE BOOK
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Lesser-Known Biblical Passage on the Papacy (Luke 12:41-44) [from St. Francis de Sales; Facebook]

St. Francis de Sales’ Argument Against Total Depravity and for the Indefectibility of the Church, from the Psalms [blog]

St. Francis de Sales’ Argument for the Indefectibility of the Church (Acts 20:28) [Facebook]

Argument for the Papacy from the Analogy of Abraham [from St. Francis de Sales; Facebook]

Erasmus vs. Luther and Calvin (Free Will / Meritorious Works / Total Depravity) [Facebook]

Erasmus on the Perspicuity of Scripture and Circular Protestant Reasoning [Facebook]

Bishop Bossuet: Great Comment on the Visible Church, With Sinners in It [Facebook]

Bishop Bossuet on Luther’s Contradictions Regarding Assurance of Salvation vs. Non-Assurance of Repentance [Facebook]

Zwinglians and Calvinists Correctly Argued Over Against Luther, that if “This is My Body” is Taken Literally, Catholic Transubstantiation is Far More Reasonable than Lutheran Consubstantiation [from Bishop Bossuet; Facebook]

Cardinal Wiseman on Quick Mass Baptisms in the Book of Acts as a Proof of the Profound Authority of the Catholic Church and Binding of New Converts to Even its Future Decrees  [Facebook]

Cardinal Gibbons: Analogy of the Papacy to the High Priest of the Old Testament [Facebook]

Cardinal Gibbons on the False, Unbiblical Dichotomy Between Interior Pious Disposition and External Formal Ceremony, Liturgy, and Ritual [Facebook]

Sacrifice of the Mass in the Synoptic and Pauline Consecration Formulas From the Last Supper [from Ferdinand Prat, S. J.; Facebook]

The “Obedience of Faith” in Paul and its Soteriological Implications (Justification and Denial of “Faith Alone”) [from Ferdinand Prat, S. J.; Facebook]

The Nature of Papal Leadership: “Servant of Servants” [from Karl Adam; Facebook]

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Last updated on 25 September 2020

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