{"id":10969,"date":"2017-04-12T11:12:17","date_gmt":"2017-04-12T15:12:17","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=10969"},"modified":"2017-04-12T11:16:34","modified_gmt":"2017-04-12T15:16:34","slug":"reply-to-atheist-on-dishonest-messianic-prophecies-isaiah-53","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2017\/04\/reply-to-atheist-on-dishonest-messianic-prophecies-isaiah-53.html","title":{"rendered":"Reply to Atheist on Isaiah 53 & \u201cDishonest\u201d Christians"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"Liar\"<\/p>\n

Original manga logo (Shinobu Kaitani: 2005)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

(7-2-10)<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

See my previous installment,\u00a0Reply to Atheist on \u201cFabricated\u201d OT Messianic Prophecies<\/a>, to learn more about\u00a0Mitch \/ \u201cProfMTH\u201d<\/a>: an atheist who loves to try<\/em> to shoot down the Bible.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m delighted to have the opportunity to illustrate my longtime contention that atheists (or at least the more vocal, polemical, provocative ones) are usually out to sea and guilty of the most basic misunderstandings and fallacies when it comes to exegesis and hermeneutics, and about many (rather fundamental or essential) aspects of the Bible and the ancient near eastern approach to life and thought.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

In his video, Jesus Was Not the Messiah \u2014 Part Two<\/a><\/em>: continuation of the \u201cstudy\u201d<\/a> that I critiqued last time, Mitch makes the claim that the New Testament writers and Christian apologists since biblical times have dishonestly applied the famous messianic passage Isaiah 53 to Jesus Christ, when in fact, according to him, it is clearly referring to Israel as a nation. Here are his own words (from 7:14 to 7:23 on the video):<\/p>\n

The servant is repeatedly, consistently, indeed exclusively, identified as Israel.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

He reiterates this sentiment again at 8:34 \u2013 8:45 in almost identical language, after presenting seven passages from Isaiah that support his contention (Isaiah 41:8; 44:1; 44:2; 44:21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3). Here is what is called a false dichotomy or false dilemma. These passages do indeed refer to a collective Israel, but this poses no problem whatever because \u201cservant\u201d is also applied to an individual in the same sort of passages. Often in the Bible, we observe multiple \u201cboth\/and\u201d applications of this sort.<\/p>\n

One example is Revelation 12:1-6 (cf. Jer 4:31): the passage about the \u201cwoman clothed with the sun.\u201d Christians have long applied this passage in a double sense: to Israel \/ the Church, but also to Mary, since there is very clear messianic language in 12:5 (\u201cshe brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, \u201d \u2014 cf. Ps 2:7-9).<\/p>\n

The child here is analogous to the \u201cservant\u201d of Isaiah. This is an individual who is to be king (and Messiah). The mother figure is simultaneously a representative of Israel (and later the Church, by development and analogy) and a real person, Mary of Nazareth.<\/p>\n

In fact, another strong motif in the Old Testament is the \u201cDaughter of Zion\u201d (sometimes, \u201cvirgin daughter of Zion\u201d), who represented a sort of personification of the nation Israel, similar to the New Testament typology of the Church as the \u201cBride [of Christ]\u201d (2 Cor 11:2; Rev 19:7; 21:2, 9; 22:17). See 2 Ki 19:21; Ps 9:14; Is 1:8; 10:32; 16:1; 37:22; 52:2; 62:11; Jer 6:2, 23; Lam 1:6; 2:1, 4, 8, 10, 13, 18; 4:22; Mic 1:13; 4:8, 10, 13; Zeph 3:14; Zech 2:10; 9:9; Matt 21:5; Jn 12:15.<\/p>\n

The \u201cdaughter of Zion\u201d motif is analogous to the \u201cservant\u201d motif under consideration. There is an interplay between the collective and the individual who personifies the collective or has a favorable orientation towards the collective. We observe the same dynamic in the \u201cservant\u201d theme.<\/p>\n

But Mitch either ignores this (or is blissfully unaware of it). Note carefully that he says that the \u201cservant\u201d is \u201crepeatedly, consistently, indeed exclusively, identified as Israel.\u201d The first description is true; so is the second, if not taken in an absolute sense. But the third description is false. And it is easily shown to be so. Mitch could have figured this out had he mildly troubled himself enough to crack open a biblical concordance, or use a searchable online Bible <\/a>(as I do: the RSV).<\/p>\n

The following passage (starting just two verses after one of his own \u201cprooftexts\u201d) is an example where \u201cservant\u201d is being used in reference to an individual (the Messiah or a figure like him); this is particularly evident and manifest from the fact that he is presented in contradistinction to Israel (therefore cannot be equated with Israel in this instance):<\/p>\n

Isaiah 49:5-7<\/strong> And now the LORD says,
\nwho formed me from the womb to be his servant,
\nto bring Jacob back to him,
\nand that Israel might be gathered to him,
\nfor I am honored in the eyes of the LORD,
\nand my God has become my strength \u2014
\n[6] he says:
\n\u201cIt is too light a thing that you should be my servant
\nto raise up the tribes of Jacob
\nand to restore the preserved of Israel;
\nI will give you as a light to the nations,
\nthat my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.\u201d
\n[7] Thus says the LORD,
\nthe Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One,
\nto one deeply despised, abhorred by the nations,
\nthe servant of rulers:
\n\u201cKings shall see and arise;
\nprinces, and they shall prostrate themselves;
\nbecause of the LORD, who is faithful,
\nthe Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Using Mitch\u2019s dubious exegesis, where, supposedly \u201cservant\u201d must \u201cconsistently, indeed exclusively\u201d mean the nation Israel, we get the following sentiments (I merely substituted \u201cthe nation Israel\u201d for \u201cservant\u201d: applying his logic):<\/p>\n

Isaiah 49:5<\/strong> (MRV: Mitch Revised Version) . . . who formed me from the womb to be the nation Israel, to bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him, . . .<\/p>\n

Isaiah 49:6<\/strong> (MRV) . . . It is too light a thing that you should be my nation Israel to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel; . . .<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Isaiah 53 itself fits in quite nicely with an interpretation of an individual (the Messiah \/ Jesus) being referred to, rather than a collective. There are a host of exegetical and cross-reference arguments that can be brought to bear in support of such a view. I noted many of them in an extremely in-depth dialogue<\/a> on this very question that I had with an Orthodox Jew in 2001.<\/p>\n

Moreover, there are a great many ancient and medieval Jewish commentators who took a messianic (rather than collective) interpretation of Isaiah 53, as I documented (again at extreme length) in another paper of mine<\/a>. In other words, this particular interpretation is not merely a Christian one, let alone a supposedly dishonest Christian re-interpretation of what had always (supposedly) been believed by the Jews.<\/p>\n

See also my related paper, with much additional documentation: Old Testament and Jewish Conceptions of the Messiah<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Despite all of this, Mitch made bold to say in his video (at 8:50 \u2013 9:06):<\/p>\n

Christian apologists are ready, willing, and able to ignore what biblical texts do and do not say, in favor of their preferred positions.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That\u2019s odd. I would submit that he has again done exactly the thing he falsely accuses others of doing. One might call that hypocrisy, as well as an unjust projection.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Original manga logo (Shinobu Kaitani: 2005) [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons] *** (7-2-10) *** See my previous installment,\u00a0Reply to Atheist on \u201cFabricated\u201d OT Messianic Prophecies, to learn more about\u00a0Mitch \/ \u201cProfMTH\u201d: an atheist who loves to try to shoot down the Bible. I\u2019m delighted to have the opportunity to illustrate my longtime contention that atheists […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":10972,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124,31,448,172],"tags":[258,3845,3844,2639,335,1661,1387,1386,3843,3847,3846,1310,427,562,3842,3848,3849,2643,2435],"class_list":["post-10969","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","category-bible-and-tradition","category-jews-judaism-old-testament","category-trinitarianism-christology","tag-atheism","tag-atheist-bible-experts","tag-atheist-biblical-skepticism","tag-atheist-exegesis","tag-atheists","tag-biblical-accuracy","tag-exegesis","tag-hermeneutics","tag-historicity-of-the-bible","tag-ignorance","tag-imbecility","tag-jesus","tag-jesus-christ","tag-messianic-prophecies","tag-old-testament-prophecy","tag-presumptuousness","tag-pretentiousness","tag-profmth","tag-stupidity"],"yoast_head":"\nReply to Atheist 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Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/10969","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=10969"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/10969\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/10972"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=10969"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=10969"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=10969"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}