{"id":110,"date":"2015-01-30T02:58:00","date_gmt":"2015-01-30T06:58:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/01\/live-chat-exchange-with-mark-shea-on-waterboarding.html"},"modified":"2017-05-24T15:08:35","modified_gmt":"2017-05-24T19:08:35","slug":"live-chat-exchange-with-mark-shea-on","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/01\/live-chat-exchange-with-mark-shea-on.html","title":{"rendered":"“Live Chat” Exchange with Mark Shea on Waterboarding"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>
\"Head<\/a><\/div>\n
Ca\u00efn\u00a0venant\u00a0de\u00a0tuer\u00a0son\u00a0fr\u00e8re\u00a0Abel<\/em>,\u00a0by\u00a0Henry\u00a0Vidal (1896) in\u00a0Tuileries\u00a0Garden\u00a0in\u00a0Paris,\u00a0France.<\/span> [Wikimedia Commons<\/a> \/\u00a0CC BY 2.0<\/a><\/span><\/span>]\n

***<\/p><\/span><\/div>\n

<\/div>\n
(1-30-15)\n

***<\/p><\/div>\n

<\/div>\n
I tried, folks. I mightily<\/i> tried. I summoned (only by God\u2019s grace, believe me) every last fiber and nerve in me of patience, and was willing to be a punching bag for two hours, in order to achieve rational dialogue with Mark. You be the judge. This took place in the wee hours of 1-30-15 and was about 75 minutes in duration. Mark\u2019s words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
* * * * *<\/div>\n

The huge<\/i> irony in all this insofar as I have been attacked is that I am agnostic <\/b><\/i>on waterboarding (as to whether it is torture or not), not an advocate<\/i> of it, let alone for torture. I have moved closer to thinking that waterboarding may be torture, based on an excellent article <\/a>I read on the Unam Sanctam<\/i> Catholicam <\/i>website, and by dialoguing with a certain person who is able to talk about the issue minus the gratuitous and juvenile epithets. I sure ain\u2019t gonna change my mind through the tactics of being compared to Holocaust deniers, Nazis, and Americanists. As always, I change my mind by rational persuasion and being shown either compelling biblical or magisterial data.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t enjoy being an agnostic about anything<\/i>. It\u2019s not my nature. But I\u2019d rather be that than intellectually dishonest. So here I am. Insult away, or else try to use reason, that I am altogether willing to hear and interact with.<\/p>\n

Mark Shea said that anyone holding my position [agnostic on whether waterboarding is torture and intrinsically evil] is \u201cinsane\u201d. . .]<\/span><\/p>\n

Moi aussi. I\u2019ve had almost no conversation with you, Dave, but somehow you\u2019ve decided to apply stuff I\u2019ve said in other contexts to yourself. If the shoe fits wear it, I guess. But I have no idea if the shoe fits you. You decided that for yourself. So I don\u2019t even know what I\u2019m supposed to apologize for.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

You said that anyone who held this position was \u201cinsane\u201d during the short time you visited my Facebook page (which is quite in \u201cmy context\u201d). It\u2019s a simple logical deduction:
\n<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

1. \u201cAnyone who believes y is insane.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

2. x believes y.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

3, Therefore, x must be insane.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n


\nSurely you can grasp this logic. It has nothing to do with whether I<\/i> decided if the shoe fit or not. I have never believed that I was insane. You<\/i> decided that all of us who disagree wear this \u201cshoe\u201d of \u201cinsanity\u201d (and a host of other things). Then when called on it, this<\/i> is the lame response you invariably make, as if we <\/i>are paranoid and illogically applying what you<\/i> said yourself.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

I didn\u2019t ask you to apologize. I merely mentioned you in connection with my observation that those of your position have come up with \u201ca very colorful collection of epithets.\u201d<\/p>\n

Another prime example of the ridiculous sophistry that you regularly bring to this topic is to say that folks are advocating \u201cdrowning\u201d when they think waterboarding is permissible. Newsflash: it ain\u2019t drowning: which results in a dead person. It\u2019s not even attempted<\/i> drowning. But that doesn\u2019t stop you from your sophistry.<\/p>\n

And the weirdest thing about it is your assumption that your readers are too stupid to not know that waterboarding is not drowning . . . It sounds great as a magnificent insult, I guess, so it is used repeatedly, no matter how inane and vacuous it is.<\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Waterboarding is an attempt to make a person in his fright and fear (and based on the normal reaction of the instinctual portions of the brain) think<\/i> he may<\/i> be drowning. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

But as I have said, if soldiers are routinely trained in it, then they know going in that they ain\u2019t gonna drown, and that seems significant to me, though I grant that it likely wouldn\u2019t make the experience much<\/i> less frightening than it is. The person would simply know in their mind, \u201cthey are not gonna kill<\/i> me by drowning.\u201d<\/p>\n

Mark doesn\u2019t \u201crespond.\u201d He preaches and polemicizes on these sorts of issues, and I\u2019m not interested in that.\u00a0 <\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201cDialogue\u201d (ha ha) with him is nonexistent after he gets on his soapbox.<\/span><\/p>\n

Mkay. Whatever.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Yes, whatever. The usual . . . <\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Dave: What do you want<\/i>? I offered to discuss it. You come back with the stuff above, so I drop it. . . . Sheesh.<\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t want anything from you. You don\u2019t discuss this issue.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>What issue? What are you talking about?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

I am sick and tired of sophistry and hyper-polemics. Period<\/i>. It\u2019s not personal<\/i>. It\u2019s not being sensitive<\/i> or being hurt<\/i>. It is a principled objection to your warping of discussion when waterboarding comes up.<\/span><\/p>\n

Dave; The only sophistry comes from people who have labored for ten years to pretend that torture is compatible with Catholic teaching, that waterboarding (for which we hanged Japanese) is not torture, that torture is so mysterious and impossible to define that we have to just go ahead and approve of whatever it is the CIA did to prisoners. Beyond this, my point to you, if memory serves, is that it is the height of folly, after the disclosure of the horrors of the Senate Report, for Catholics<\/i> above all to continue to try to split hairs over waterboarding. It\u2019s like abortion defenders deploying millions of word to argue over whether Kermit Gosnell washed his hands or only wiped them off on his smock.<\/span><\/span><\/span>
\n
\n<\/span><\/span><\/span>Like that matters. <\/span><\/span><\/span>
\n
\n<\/span><\/span><\/span>And yeah, that is insane.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

As to the exhausted, futile, and deeply stupid question \u201cIs waterboarding really and truly torture?\u201d I totally concur with and always recommend this exhaustive look at the question: <\/span>Posts About Waterboarding on Zippy Catholic<\/a>.\u00a0 But at thi<\/span>s late date, the whole stupid attempt by Catholics to justify this filth is like a defense attorney at Nuremburg throwing all his energies into trying to show that Goering was not guilty of jaywalking. The gnat\/camel inversion ratio would be comically crazy if it were not such a humiliating stain on \u201cfaithful conservative prolife\u201d Catholic honor.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Is any physical interrogation permissible at all? This is what bothers me and what hardly anyone seems to want to work through. I suspect that if someone could give me a clear principle on that, that I could resolve my own agnosticism on this.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Dave: Tolle, lege:<\/span> [link to the book, How to Break a Terrorist<\/i><\/a>] The guy is a professional interrogator. We had long-standing rules for ethical interrogation before Bush\/Cheney authorized torture. Instead of trying to figure out how brutal we can be, why not ask \u201cHow do we treat prisoners humanely and get the intel we need?\u201d Turns out those two projects are not in opposition.<\/span><\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Sure. How do we do that? That is <\/i>my question. Is anything physical whatever permissible towards that end?<\/span> Can, e.g., a cop can kill a child abuser holding a sexual slave (i.e., in the classic hostage scenario), but he can\u2019t slap him on the wrist to find out about said slave\u2019s whereabouts?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

I repeat: Why is it so urgent for you to find out how much abuse you can heap on a prisoner instead of asking \u201cHow can we treat prisoners humanely and get the intel we need?\u201d It\u2019s like its more important to find a rationale for abuse than to get the intel. Read the book. it\u2019s about the answer to your question.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

That book talks about non-physical methods (which are great: more power to him). I am asking whether we can ever lay a hand on anyone at any time (because the Church has certainly sanctioned some version of that for centuries). You say no to that, too?<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m not trying to abuse anyone. I\u2019m trying to find out the underlying ethical principles that can guide us in this stuff, just as just war theory guides wars.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

I will read the book. But I need to have other questions plausibly answered, too, in order to become persuaded of your position.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

You apparently missed my question: So a cop can kill a child abuser holding a sexual slave (i.e., in the classic hostage scenario), but he can\u2019t slap him on the wrist to find out about said slave\u2019s whereabouts?<\/span>\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0<\/span> <\/span><\/p>\n

I am a Socratic<\/a>.\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

There is no Catholic document delineating every species of torture just as there is not document delineating every conceivable form of sexual perversion. The Church does not proceed by saying \u201cSee how close you can get to mortal sin but don\u2019t quite do it.\u201d It starts with the good. In this case, the good of human dignity. The Church gives a positive command, not a list legalistic prohibition attached to the words \u201cSimon Peter says.\u201d There. is. no. definitive. list.of. torture, Dave. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. There is the command to treat prisoners humanely. Do that and you will not accidentally torture them or waste time trying to figure out how hard and often you can punch or drown them before it\u2019s torture. Why is it so important<\/i> to want to know that you can beat up a prisoner?<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Are any physical methods of interrogation permissible, in your view? Simple yes or no answer. You don\u2019t have to psychoanalyze me, engage in psycho-babble, polemicize, spin, use wonderful turns of phrase. Just Yes.Or.No.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t want to do<\/b> anything<\/i>. I want guidelines and I want to understand and work through the premises involved in this.<\/span> <\/span><\/p>\n

So we are left with the expertise of people who do this work, Matthew Alexander is an expert in interrogation. Bishops are not. They give the guideline and good interrogators give us tips on how that guideline has been met without torture and abuse.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Why are you asking people with zero experience in interrogation? Why not read Alexander and find out how humane interrogation is done?<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

I assume you mean by \u201cphysical\u201d \u201cinflicting pain or terror\u201d? Why do you want to do that so badly when it is not necessary?<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

You do get that just war and human interrogation are not opposites but the same thing, right?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

The guideline is \u201ctreat prisoners humanely\u201d.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

AKA \u201cDo what the Army Field Manual said to do before Bush\/Cheney broke with decades of practice and started torturing people. Not complicated.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

What did that manual say? Could POWs be physically dealt with?<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

The premise is \u201cman is made in the image and likeness of God\u201d. Therefore do not torture him.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

No one is advocating torture.<\/span>
\n\u00a0<\/span> <\/span>
\nIt\u2019s like pulling teeth to get answers out of you. <\/span>If people want to hide things, they avoid simple questions, as you have been doing again and again.<\/span><\/p>\n

Why do you keep saying \u201cphysically dealt with\u201d when you mean \u201csubjected to physical pain or terror in order to break his will\u201d. That is what you mean, right?<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

No, Dave. Prisoners are to be treated humanely.<\/span><\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Can the person who has sexual slaves who are starving be slapped in order to find out where they are?<\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

So prisoners can\u2019t be touched at all?<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Of course they can be touched. But you can\u2019t beat them up, as you clearly long to do. Because the goal is to get intel, not torture them. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span> I\u2019m saying they cannot be slapped. That\u2019s abuse.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

So the touching is stroking their hair? I get it.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m also saying that is sick and weird to hear a Catholic apologist laboring with intensity to try to figure out when a defenseless prisoner can be beaten.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Do you understand what a socratic discussion is, Mark?<\/span>\u00a0<\/span> <\/span><\/p>\n

And now we get the old \u201cIt\u2019s torture or kisses on the nose\u201d lie.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Oh, brother.<\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Maybe not. Probably<\/i> not, by the looks of it.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Dude, go read the Alexander book. At present, your obvious goal is to figure out a way to rationalize beating prisoners, since you assume that is necessary in the fantasy scenarios you are constructing to rationalize beating prisoners. I\u2019m saying get out of your fantasy world and go read something by somebody who has done the work without torturing anybody.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Right, Mark. Gotcha.<\/span>\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0<\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Shea out. Too much surreality for me.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Too much sophistry for me.<\/span>\u00a0<\/span> <\/span><\/span>
\n\u00a0<\/span> <\/span>
\n* * * * *<\/span><\/p>\n

[the next day]<\/span><\/p>\n

Dave: When your entire<\/i> approach is to seek a rationale for slapping a defenseless person and to spend tremendous intellectual energy on trying to figure how hard you can slap him, how many times, and how to do that without being nailed for torture a<\/span>nd abuse\u2013all in the name of Catholic apologetics, don\u2019t be surprised when somebody says, \u201cGod\u2019s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.\u201d<\/span>The real<\/i> Catholic approach is not to try to figure out how much abuse you can get away with, but to ask \u201cHow do we treat prisoners humanely and get the intel we need?\u201d The witness of reality is that these two projects are harmonious, not opposed.<\/span><\/span><\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

My entire<\/i> approach is to seek truth by means of the socratic method, as I have always done (well, at least since Philosophy 0101 in 1977). You obviously understand neither socratic method, nor elementary Christian ethics, because you are lightning-quick to accuse and mind-rape. This is serious sin.<\/p>\n

Dave; With respect, your quest to find a rationale for slapping defenseless people is as socratic as \u201cwhen did you stop beating your wife?\u201d Begin with the wrong question, arrive at the wrong conclusion.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Your bullying tactics don\u2019t work with me, Mark. I\u2019m not scared of you and never have been. You don\u2019t and won\u2019t shut me up by your ranting and raving and chest-puffing and \u201corthodoxy cop\u201d schtick (that you condemned for years and now do yourself). You can whine and squawk and use sophistry all you like. It doesn\u2019t work. I see right through it. I know what is in my own head and in my heart. You do not, and never will, as long as you use your considerable intellectual abilities and energies to lie about others and slander and caricature.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Ranting and raving and chest-puffing? What are you talking about? I\u2019m stating facts. The Church begins with \u201ctreat prisoners humanely\u201d, not \u201cTry to figure out a rationale for slapping and drowning them\u201d.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t think you\u2019re lying and neither said nor implied that. I think you are proceeding from a set of unconscious assumptions and therefore beginning with the wrong question, Dave.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

To the contrary, if I repeatedly clarify, \u201cI am not thinking x at all<\/i>,\u201d and you come back repeatedly with \u201cwhy are you thinking and asserting x<\/i>??!!\u201d then you have assumed that I am lying about my own internal state, whether you actually say that outright or not. It follows from inexorable logic. It\u2019s neither logical nor charitable thought. I\u2019m the world\u2019s biggest expert (among human beings, anyway) on what goes on in my own head and heart.<\/span><\/p>\n

When you repeatedly press for a rationale for slapping and drowning people, don\u2019t be surprised if people hear you pressing for a rationale for slapping and drowning people and respond accordingly, Dave. You may not realize that is what you are doing, but that is what you are doing.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Right. You\u2019re incapable of true philosophical discussion: at least if it is a topic that you preach and rant and rave about (as this one is). You don\u2019t know how to do it. Actual philosophers (Feser and Beckwith) noted this years ago (on this topic). <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

You don\u2019t get it. So because you don\u2019t get<\/i> what I am doing, and can\u2019t grasp<\/i> it (because it is a different view from your own), you feel compelled to caricature it and come up with this pompous bilge of \u201cYou may not realize that is what you are doing, but that is what you are doing.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Mostly it comes from hostility, which confuses clear thinking every time. A non-hostile Christian would never in a million years treat a fellow Catholic the way I have been treated here. It\u2019s disgraceful. The hostility poisons personal relations and logical thought alike.<\/p>\n

There\u2019s the \u201cdrowning\u201d thing again, which is a fallacy from the get-go. No one is drowning. No one is advocating it. Nothing is drowning (except for the idiotic pseudo-\u201cthinking\u201d that resides between your ears when you engage in such sophistry). You are drowning in sophistry and stupid rhetoric. That\u2019s the only \u201cdrowning\u201d here.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

In short, Dave, I am not your enemy. You have repeatedly pressed me for my views on torture and the sundry apologetics for waterboarding (aka torture). I\u2019ve given them. I\u2019ve also made clear that, since the release of the Senate Report, Catholic attempts to rationalize waterboarding are like attempts to show that Goering was not guilty of jaywalking. Folly, and a source of scandal. Beyond that, I have little to add. if you approach the question as the Church does, asking \u201cHow do we treat prisoners humanely and get the intel we need?\u201d you will get reasonable answers to reasonable questions. If you start by trying to figure out how much slapping and drowning you can inflict on a defenseless prisoner, you will end in confusion and anger, because you are starting wrong. You can tell me I\u2019m incapable of a truly philosophical discussion all you like, but them\u2019s the facts and pretty much all I\u2019ve ever had to say. God bless you, Dave. I hope you come to peace, truth, and light about this.<\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Thank you and God bless you too. I hope you stop grossly caricaturing and lying about others\u2019 views and motivations, minus which you can\u2019t possibly have peace of soul and heart, because it is serious sin.<\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

God bless you, Dave.<\/span><\/p>\n

* * * * * <\/span><\/span><\/span>
\n\u00a0 <\/span><\/span><\/span>
\n[see also the accompanying Facebook discussion <\/a>about this]<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Ca\u00efn\u00a0venant\u00a0de\u00a0tuer\u00a0son\u00a0fr\u00e8re\u00a0Abel,\u00a0by\u00a0Henry\u00a0Vidal (1896) in\u00a0Tuileries\u00a0Garden\u00a0in\u00a0Paris,\u00a0France. [Wikimedia Commons \/\u00a0CC BY 2.0] *** (1-30-15) *** I tried, folks. I mightily tried. I summoned (only by God\u2019s grace, believe me) every last fiber and nerve in me of patience, and was willing to be a punching bag for two hours, in order to achieve rational dialogue with Mark. 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I summoned every last nerve in me of patience, and was willing to be a punching bag, in order to achieve rational dialogue with Mark Shea.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/01\/live-chat-exchange-with-mark-shea-on.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\""Live Chat" Exchange with Mark Shea on Waterboarding\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"I tried, folks. I summoned every last nerve in me of patience, and was willing to be a punching bag, in order to achieve rational dialogue with Mark Shea.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/01\/live-chat-exchange-with-mark-shea-on.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2015-01-30T06:58:00+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2017-05-24T19:08:35+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2015\/01\/Facepalm.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"768\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"512\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"15 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/01\/live-chat-exchange-with-mark-shea-on.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/01\/live-chat-exchange-with-mark-shea-on.html\",\"name\":\"\\\"Live Chat\\\" Exchange with Mark Shea on Waterboarding\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2015-01-30T06:58:00+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2017-05-24T19:08:35+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\"},\"description\":\"I tried, folks. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"\"Live Chat\" Exchange with Mark Shea on Waterboarding","description":"I tried, folks. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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