{"id":11573,"date":"2017-05-06T11:45:52","date_gmt":"2017-05-06T15:45:52","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=11573"},"modified":"2017-05-07T18:36:01","modified_gmt":"2017-05-07T22:36:01","slug":"dialogue-samuel-appearing-saul-witch-endor","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2017\/05\/dialogue-samuel-appearing-saul-witch-endor.html","title":{"rendered":"Dialogue on Samuel Appearing to Saul (Witch of Endor)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"SaulSamuel2\"<\/p>\n

The Shade of Samuel Invoked by Saul<\/i> (1857), by\u00a0Nikiforovich Dmitry Martynov (1826-1889)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

This is an exchange on my paper,\u00a0Dialogue: Rich Man\u2019s Prayer to Abraham (Lk 16) & Invocation of Saints<\/a>. John E. Taylor is a Presbyterian friend of mine (OPC), whom I know \u201cin real life.\u201d His words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

Much can be said but I\u2019ll be brief.<\/span><\/p>\n

1) The rich man could see<\/em>\u00a0Abraham, and vice versa. We have no indication saints can see us, since we can\u2019t see them.<\/span><\/p>\n

Hebrews 12:1<\/a> makes it quite clear that they can see us, and indeed are actively watching and interested.<\/p>\n

2) Nor is there anything that tells us whether Abraham could send Lazarus back to earth. I\u2019m not going to put any credence in one of the damned\u2019s ability to know what a departed saint can do for us. <\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s not what the rich<\/em> man thought, but what Jesus<\/em> taught. He\u2019s the one who told<\/em> the story, with not the slightest hint that he shouldn\u2019t have prayed<\/em> to Abraham.<\/p>\n

3) Samuel appearing to Saul is not<\/em>\u00a0a good example to cite. It was mega-evil\u00a0<\/em><\/strong>for Saul to call him up, and he paid for it with his life (1 Chron. 10:13-14).<\/span><\/p>\n

The text treats Samuel as the real person. Samuel gives a true prophecy.<\/p>\n

4) Moses and Elijah conversing with Jesus at the Transformation is no indication we should seek the same \u2013 we\u2019re not Christ.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s irrelevant if we are Christ or not. What that shows is that the departed can come back to earth, which we also know from Matthew 27 and the Two Witnesses of Revelation (not to mention the dead who were raised).<\/p>\n

But the only ones I know who asked for favors from the dead were Saul (for which God killed him within a day or 3) and the rich man in hell.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Not exactly good precedents\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n

Saul wasn\u2019t killed because of the seance, but because of his prior sins:<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n


\n1 Samuel 28:16-19<\/strong> And Samuel said, \u201cWhy then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? [17] The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, David. [18] Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Am\u2019alek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.\u00a0[19] Moreover the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.<\/span><\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n


\nAs I argued in the piece, it\u2019s irrelevant to the proof who did the prayer. All that matters is how the prayer to Abraham is presented in the story by Jesus. And it\u2019s presented as perfectly legitimate.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n


\n1 Chronicles 10:13<\/strong> (ESV)\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/span>So Saul died for his breach of faith. He broke faith with the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord , and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

You sure<\/em>\u00a0you want to challenge me in Bible Trivia?<\/span> :-)<\/p>\n

:-) Fair enough. Chronicles provides that further information. So we must grant that consulting a medium was part of his sin, for which he was judged (what specifically<\/em>\u00a0he was judged for \u2014 dying in battle \u2014 was the only issue). I had either forgotten that tidbit or wasn\u2019t ever aware of it. Score one for you!<\/p>\n

How I use the example of Samuel from that passage, however, is a separate issue, which remains unrefuted. My point in bringing that up, is that God allowed a dead saint to appear to the living. Whether Saul used a medium and sinned in that way is beside the point of the real\u00a0<\/em><\/strong>Samuel appearing and giving a true prophecy. All agree that seances and other practices of the occult and sorcery, necromancy, etc., are forbidden.<\/p>\n

But the communion of saints is none of those things, as I have explained<\/a>.<\/p>\n

The Samuel-Saul encounter was nevertheless a real one. It wasn\u2019t a demon impersonating Samuel, because demons don\u2019t utter true prophecies of judgment.<\/p>\n

That shows that contact with the dead in some fashion is indeed possible and in God\u2019s will (or else Samuel simply wouldn\u2019t have appeared at all).<\/p>\n

Part of the presuppositions of Protestants, which are hostile to the communion of saints is this notion that there is never any communication (or even knowledge) at all (of any<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0sort) between the departed and us living on earth. This is one passage among many that contradict that. Thus, it illustrates a necessary premise that lies behind the communion of saints.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

Steve Wall <\/a>added some excellent and illuminating remarks after I posted this in a Facebook group:<\/p>\n

I often use the event with Saul and Samuel to prove that Saints do know what is going on and<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0that they are in communication with God. The former is evidenced by Samuel knowing what was and what had been happening to Saul and<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0the latter is evidenced by Samuel knowing what was about to happen to Saul and his sons.<\/p>\n

But, like you, I find it is usually impossible to get a Protestant to listen to any of it. They want to ignore everything beyond the witch and the conjuring.<\/p>\n

The witch certainly did not have the power to bring Samuel into existence if he was not already in existence.<\/p>\n

The witch certainly did not have the power to make Samuel aware of everything that had been and was happening to Saul.<\/p>\n

The witch certainly did not have the power to make Samuel aware of what was about to befall Saul and his sons.<\/p>\n

This is proof that the communion of saints is possible and that proof, more than the evil of the witch, is the real problem that Protestants have with this event.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

As a lifelong Presbyterian, I\u2019m surprised to be told we don\u2019t believe there is any communion with the departed. We know Saul and the medium, the Transfiguration, etc. Conservative Presbyterians aren\u2019t known for teaching doctrines that are flatly contradicted by Scripture. <\/span><\/p>\n

Having said that, I find no support for Catholic doctrine in the witch story. Saul committed a capital crime: <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cIf a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. (Leviticus 20:6)\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And God DID \u201ccut him off\u201d within days, if not that next day. <\/span><\/p>\n

Nor does the Transfiguration justify our taking the initiative and seeking communion with departed saints. Jesus said: <\/span><\/p>\n

So Jesus said to them, \u201cTruly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. (John 5:19\u202d-\u202c20 ESV)<\/span><\/p>\n

It follows then that meeting with Moses and Elijah was not Christ\u2019s idea but the Father\u2019s. There may be support for invoking the dead, but it\u2019s not here. <\/span><\/p>\n

Finally, Isaiah\u2019s rhetorical question should be heeded: \u201cShould they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?\u201d (Isaiah 8:19)<\/span><\/p>\n

But again you ignored Steve\u2019s point, thus making a prophet of him, when he wrote: \u201cThey want to ignore everything beyond the witch and the conjuring.\u201d That\u2019s all you can see. You don\u2019t want to analyze the other aspects that he and I talked about.<\/p>\n

You flatly denied that saints were aware of our actions on earth, when you wrote: \u201cWe have no indication saints can see us, since we can\u2019t see them.\u201d<\/span> I replied with Hebrews 12:1 and Steve added: \u201cSaints do know what is going on . . . evidenced by Samuel knowing what was and what had been happening to Saul.\u201d<\/p>\n

Now you go right back to talking about necromancy, where we all agree in the first place. We\u2019re saying that there are relevant considerations beyond<\/em> that sin. And these support important aspects of the Catholic doctrine of the communion of saints.<\/p>\n

You believe there is some contact with the dead. That\u2019s good. I was generalizing, in referring to the \u201cpresuppositions of Protestants.\u201d One must always generalize when talking about Protestants, because you guys have so many internal disagreements. There\u2019s not enough time in the day to describe seven different beliefs about any given topic, so we resort to generalizing. \"\"<\/span>\u00a0But it\u2019s true that I could have written, \u201cpresuppositions of many<\/em>\u00a0Protestants.\u201d<\/p>\n

Note also that Samuel (like Abraham in Luke 16) never says that Saul shouldn\u2019t ask him for advice (i.e., in effect, essentially the same as \u201cpraying\u201d to him, or invoking him, since he has departed from the earth).<\/p>\n

Rather, he notes the simple fact that the Lord had already turned against Saul; therefore, there was nothing left for Samuel to tell him. In other words, it would be giving advice that is impossible to give, given God\u2019s expressed will. So Samuel says, \u201cWhy then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me . . .\u201d (1 Samuel 28:16-17a)<\/p>\n

If Protestant theology of opposition to the invocation of saints were true, Samuel should have said, \u201cWhy then do you ask me, since God has forbidden all invocation of departed persons. You have to ask God only.\u201d<\/p>\n

First things first. If the very communication<\/em> \u2014 no matter what<\/em>\u00a0it was about, was absolutely forbidden, then this would have been noted, just as angels and apostles informed people that they shouldn\u2019t be worshiped: that this was a basic category mistake.<\/p>\n

Therefore, we conclude that since he didn\u2019t do this, such communications are not absolutely forbidden, and that invocation of saints is indeed permitted. Samuel was simply saying that there was nothing for him to say in this instance<\/em>, since it would contradict God\u2019s will; not that he could never possibly say anything<\/em>\u00a0in reply, because no one can invoke anyone other than God.<\/p>\n

The related passage you brought up supports my point as well:<\/p>\n

1 Chronicles 10:13-14<\/strong> So Saul died for his unfaithfulness; he was unfaithful to the LORD in that he did not keep the command of the LORD, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance,\u00a0[14] and did not seek guidance from the LORD. Therefore the LORD slew him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.<\/p>\n

The text doesn\u2019t say that he should not or could not ever seek guidance from Samuel. He was wrong in not seeking it from the Lord and seeking it from a medium. So, once again, if Samuel believed in your theology, he should have told Saul, \u201cWhy then do you ask me. That\u2019s a sin! You can only ask the Lord!\u201d Instead, he sees himself (as all prophets do) as the representative<\/em> of God: \u201cThe LORD has done to you as he spoke by me . . .\u201d (1 Samuel 28:17a). He spoke for God, just as the prophet Nathan later did, in confronting King David for his sin.<\/p>\n

\n
Lastly, regarding Isaiah 8:19 that you brought up, of course you didn\u2019t cite the whole verse<\/em>, which reads: \u201cAnd when they say to you, \u2018Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,\u2019 should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?\u201d <\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
\u00a0<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
Obviously, it is condemning occultic practices. Catholics and Protestants don\u2019t disagree as to the wrongness of those, so it\u2019s not an issue between us. It\u2019s what is called a \u201cmoot point.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
I\u2019m very grateful for this dialogue, because as a result of your challenges, I\u2019ve been intellectually stimulated to come up with new arguments I never thought of before. Thanks!<\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

The Shade of Samuel Invoked by Saul (1857), by\u00a0Nikiforovich Dmitry Martynov (1826-1889) [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons] *** This is an exchange on my paper,\u00a0Dialogue: Rich Man\u2019s Prayer to Abraham (Lk 16) & Invocation of Saints. John E. Taylor is a Presbyterian friend of mine (OPC), whom I know \u201cin real life.\u201d His words will 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11573","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=11573"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11573\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/11574"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=11573"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=11573"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=11573"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}