![\"ChurchRuins2\"](\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2017\/07\/ChurchRuins2.jpg\")
<\/center>*****<\/p><\/center>
***<\/p><\/center>
\nThese questions and comments of mine came about on a public Catholic Discussion Board, in dialogue with a Reformed Protestant.<\/center>
<\/div>\n
I find it fascinating that our Lord Jesus and the apostles could not (in this scenario) come up with a scheme of government that would hold for all time in Christianity. They couldn\u2019t even devise a system as \u201cabsolute\u201d and continuous as, say, the American form of government or as self-evidently necessary as the organization of any company, city, or state whatever. What about the Jerusalem council? Was that meant to be some sort of ongoing model or merely a one-time event?<\/div>\n
*
\nWhat about Nicaea and Chalcedon and other generally-respected early ecumenical councils? If they were so important why would we think today that we can make do with the Bible alone and no longer need authoritative, binding councils? By what criterion did the conciliar principle change so that it is no longer relevant to any Protestant body in the present time (or for that matter, episcopacy)?<\/p>\n
How and why did the normative patristic principle of apostolic succession change or get thrown out as a binding authority?\u00a0Does the Bible (applying the principle of\u00a0sola Scriptura<\/i>) teach authoritatively about ecclesiology or are we all on our own?<\/div>\n
If the latter, how many other aspects of doctrine in Christianity are also not authoritatively determined by Holy Scripture?<\/p>\n
And if it is up to groups and individuals, how does the individual determine which is the best tradition of ecclesiology? And how can such necessary contradictions (e.g., episcopacy vs. congregationalism) indicate the presence of ecclesiological truth, since a contradiction necessarily entails a falsehood, and all falsehood is not of God?\n
I think it is good to discuss the fundamentals of ecclesiology, so people can see that the issue is not simple, but quite complex. Here are yet more questions that Protestants need to answer:<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
1. If ecclesiology is\u00a0not<\/i>\u00a0based on biblical teaching (or, similarly, if the Bible is not sufficiently\u00a0clear<\/i>\u00a0enough for Christians to arrive at a conclusion concerning what it teaches on ecclesiology: a sort of \u201chermeneutical or systematic theological agnosticism,\u201d if you will), then on what is any particular brand of ecclesiology based?<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
2. If it is fundamentally (if not entirely) based on your \u201cwhole lot of tradition and history,\u201d then haven\u2019t you already left the realm of\u00a0sola Scriptura<\/i>\u00a0because you have admitted that the Bible cannot tell us which ecclesiology is correct, so that you are forced to rely solely or primarily on tradition and history (much like the Catholic rule of faith, over against the Protestant)?<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
3. If it is based on a \u201cwhole lot of tradition and history,\u201d then you have to identify\u00a0which<\/i>\u00a0history and tradition it will be based on, since (as you love to point out) there are competing schemas or at least interpretations of Church history. How does one do that? How do you arrive at the conclusion of which history is the \u201corthodox\u201d one or most \u201crespectable\u201d one?<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
4. How is this not merely \u201ctraditions of men\u201d if you can\u2019t trace this to the Bible and are forced to rely on men\u2019s traditions apart from the Bible, which cannot resolve this issue? How many\u00a0other\u00a0<\/i>such exceptions are there to the principle and\u00a0modus operandi\u00a0<\/i>of\u00a0sola Scriptura<\/i>?<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
5. If these matters are merely contingent, and not at all a matter of biblical revelation, or unable to be determined by that revelation, whence comes your constant objection to the papacy-as-developed-in-actuality and\/or the Catholic position on the papacy and ecclesiology in general, since I think even you would agree that at least we have one schema of Church history that has some credibility and plausibility (agree or disagree)?<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
In other words, how can you argue and rail against\u00a0our<\/i>\u00a0ecclesiology, if indeed all ecclesiologies are merely tradition-based and not biblically-based, so that they are all (in the final analysis) epistemological equivalents? How can one be better than another? On what basis can one judge between them, apart from an ultimately arbitrary recourse to subjective personal opinion?<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Further comment on question #5: It seems to me you would have to then treat the Catholic conception of the papacy with equally as much respect as non-denominational congregationalism (where the pastor is too often a\u00a0de facto<\/i>\u00a0dictator) or Anglican episcopacy or the Landmark Baptists, who claim to trace their lineage through people like the Cathari and Albigensians (i.e., anyone they can find throughout history who isn\u2019t a Catholic).<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
6. If indeed ecclesiology is merely a \u201ccontingent\u201d matter, where differences are allowed by God and that\u2019s all fine and dandy and normative, and to be expected, can you point to a biblical passage which verifies\u00a0that\u00a0<\/i>stance? In other words, is ecclesiological \u201cdiversity\u201d (I say, \u201crelativism\u201d) expressly taught in Holy Scripture? Is theological diversity,\u00a0period<\/i>, taught there? If not, what\u00a0does<\/i>\u00a0it teach about ecclesiology? Will you contend that we can learn\u00a0nothing<\/i>\u00a0in Scripture about these matters?<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
7. This would seem to be the case, according to Protestantism, with regard to a number of areas; the most notable (besides ecclesiology) being baptism. Protestants are forced to conclude that the Bible has no clear or perspicuous teaching on baptism, since they can\u2019t agree, and split into five major camps:<\/div>\n
a) Infant, non-regenerative baptism (Presbyterians)
\nb) Infant regenerative baptism (e.g., Lutheranism and Anglicanism)
\nc) Adult non-regenerative baptism (Baptists, most pentecostals and non-denoms)
\nd) Adult regenerative baptism (e.g., Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ)
\ne) No baptism (Quakers and Salvation Army)<\/p><\/blockquote>\nBut, of course, that takes us into deep waters of the self-defeating nature of perspicuity itself (to which I have never received even a remotely satisfactory response from Protestants).\n<\/div>\nIt seems to me that at some point \u2014 given all these unresolvable difficulties \u2014\u00a0sola Scriptura\u00a0<\/i>and perspicuity themselves need to be seriously questioned, or else (even more fundamentally) one is left with a weakened view of biblical authority, whereby Scripture cannot teach us truth in so many areas, and is thus (practically-speaking) insufficient for the purposes of establishing Christian orthodoxy.<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nThese are, in a nutshell, the objections I would have to the Protestant notion of permissible \u201cdiverse\u201d ecclesiologies. We need to get down to the premises of all this. I always do that, and am now asking for responses to my questions.\n<\/div>\nUnless axioms and presuppositions are examined, the danger for all is to build castles of sand, with questionable foundations. I think any Protestant ecclesiological system can be shown to be disturbingly incoherent, per my questions and whatever answer a Protestant could give. If you guys play along with me on this, I\u2019ll be happy to demonstrate exactly why I feel that way, by going through the process of examination with you.<\/div>\n*****<\/p><\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
Photograph by \u201cskeeze\u201d (11-17-14) [Pixabay \/ Pixabay license] *****(6-5-03) *** These questions and comments of mine came about on a public Catholic Discussion Board, in dialogue with a Reformed Protestant.* * * * *\u00a0Are we to believe that the Bible presents or teaches no single ecclesiology? Is the governance of the Church of Christ is […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":12739,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[131],"tags":[598,779,809,1119,33,2440,1029,3067,3066,2350,815,163,810,2125,161,592,4157,1817,32,594,902],"class_list":["post-12738","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-church-ecclesiology","tag-apostolic-succession","tag-apostolic-tradition","tag-bishops","tag-catholic-church","tag-christian-authority","tag-church","tag-church-authority","tag-church-councils","tag-church-founded-by-christ","tag-church-history","tag-conciliarism","tag-ecclesiology","tag-ecumenical-councils","tag-one-true-church","tag-papacy","tag-priests","tag-protestant-ecclesiologies","tag-protestant-ecclesiology","tag-rule-of-faith","tag-sacerdotalism","tag-sacred-tradition"],"yoast_head":"\n
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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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