![\"Waterboarding\"](\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2014\/12\/Waterboarding.jpg\")
<\/a><\/div>\nI agree with what my friend Christopher Blosser had to say in his article in First Things<\/i><\/a>:<\/span> I have little respect for those who cavalierly lobby in defense of waterboarding \u2014 or, for that matter, those who who bring a cudgel to the discussion \u2014 tar-and-feathering as the \u201cRubber Hose Right\u201d (to borrow one well-known term) anyone who raises doubts about fundamentalist proof-texting from John Paul II\u2019s Veritatis Splendour <\/i>that torture, like slavery, is \u201cintrinsically evil\u201d, end of story<\/i>. (Cardinal Dulles noted himself in First Things<\/i> danger of approaching that particular passage in such a manner ).\u00a0 <\/span> I haven\u2019t been keeping up with this debate, including what Mark [Shea] has written about it, . . . I have briefly chatted with Mark about the matter, and my impression is that his position is within the permitted range of Catholic moral thought on this, though his is not the only position within the permitted range of Catholic moral thought.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n But I know that there are lines here that can be rationally discussed within an orthodox Catholic, magisterial perspective as to the ethical character of different actions. My position is partly agnostic: it\u2019s a complex ethical matter and thus it is all the more the case that we ought not to demonize one another. It\u2019s the demonization and hyper-polemicizing of the issue that I detest.<\/span> I think actual moral theologians in the Church ought to clarify it, not me. I\u2019m not qualified. This is a very complex issue. If Fr. Harrison isn\u2019t good enough for the ranting fanatics going on and on about this (or Jimmy Akin, if we want to cite a lay apologist), sure as Hades whatever I decided wouldn\u2019t be sufficient for anyone. It doesn\u2019t matter <\/i>what opinion I have on this if the Church hasn\u2019t made it clear.<\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n What is<\/i> crystal clear is that laymen who are not the magisterium are not the magisterium. That\u2019s the first rule of logic: a = a. Absolutely. This is why I wholeheartedly agree that torture is intrinsically evil (the Church has made that quite clear). I would like to see the Church define more specifically <\/i>which particular<\/i> acts are torture. Until then, I reserve judgment as to all particulars and specifics and don\u2019t claim to know or pronounce upon all <\/i>particulars on the matter (precisely because I am simply a lay apologist, etc.).<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span> \u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n The Water Torture.\u2014 Facsimile of a Woodcut in J. Damhoud\u00e8re\u2019s Praxis Rerum Criminalium: in 4to, Antwerp, 1556.\u00a0[public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons] (5-1-14) I agree with what my friend Christopher Blosser had to say in his article in First Things: I have little respect for those who cavalierly lobby in defense of waterboarding \u2014 or, for […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":3400,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[289],"tags":[567,699,701,697,698,700,565,566],"class_list":["post-139","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-political-ethical-moral-issues","tag-enhanced-interrogation","tag-gitmo","tag-guantanamo-bay","tag-police-interrogation","tag-pow","tag-prisoner-coercion","tag-torture","tag-waterboarding"],"yoast_head":"\n
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\n<\/span>I have considerably more respect for Catholic apologists like Jimmy Akin and Fr. Harrison, who address the issue with humility and trepidation, acknowledging the lack of clarity. Father Harrison in particular can be commended for taking into account the width and breadth of Church history and papal teaching.\u00a0 <\/span>
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\n<\/span>Nonetheless, it has been five years of predominantly lay Catholics \u2014 some very prominent \u2014 in open dispute and confusion on the matter. The positions of both sides has been articulated such that, every time this debate resurfaces in the blogging world, one can predict from memory the various points raised and tactics employed. <\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n
\n<\/span>I also strongly agree with Jimmy Akin\u2019s statement in one of his excellent, characteristically thoughtful and measured articles on the topic (from October 2006<\/a>):<\/span>
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\n<\/span>Briefly, as to my position: yes, of course I (with the Church) oppose torture as intrinsically evil<\/b>. The relevant question to be discussed, however, is: \u201cwhat is<\/i> torture in the first place?\u201d It comes down to definition. And that <\/i>discussion is (surprisingly or not) an immensely complex one, not simple and absolutely clear-cut as many people seem to be asserting in the present hothouse [so-called, pseudo] \u201cdebates\u201d [choke] on the topic.<\/span>
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\nThis is what Fr. Harrison, Jimmy Akin, and Christopher Blosser recognize and deal with in their treatments: where the serious, adult conversation truly lies, and that\u2019s why their articles are worth anyone\u2019s time to work through and ponder. Don\u2019t just read the mutual recriminations and shouting matches. Ignore them like the plague, is my advice (for whatever it is worth).<\/span> <\/span>
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\n<\/span>Someone has to try to foster calm, rational discussion on this topic. What goes on in so many venues is both outrageous and ridiculous. Little is accomplished and folks become estranged on a stupid basis, having (in many cases) mutually misunderstood each other\u2019s position all along, or with one party demonizing the other on inadequate (and most uncharitable) grounds from the get-go.<\/span><\/span>
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\n<\/span>Not all interrogation is torture. Some no doubt is<\/i> (as secular organizations obviously do not always follow Catholic ethics). I imagine that likely<\/i> some is, in point of fact, as to what has occurred. I don\u2019t claim to know all the answers <\/span><\/span>and ins and outs of this (anymore than Fr. Harrison and Jimmy Akin do or claim to have). <\/span>I think very few make that claim or do in fact <\/i>know the answers. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n
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\n<\/span>It\u2019s the Church\u2019s job to fully clarify vexed issues. I then go out and defend what Holy Mother Church has definitively taught. Until then, there is room for different opinions (except in the mind of legalistic, obsessed fanatics).<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n
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\n<\/span>I wrote on 21 January 2015, in response to an assertion that the Church is against torture:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n
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\n<\/span>Moreover, on the same basis, I am not subject to the condemnatory pontifications of [Name] and\/or any other non-magisterial laypeople who claim to dogmatically \u201cknow\u201d all these particulars.<\/span>\u00a0<\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n
\n<\/span>On 31 January 2015, I changed my mind insofar as I now think that waterboarding is an abuse and should never be done<\/i>, but I still don\u2019t regard it as torture, as explained in a Facebook post<\/a>. <\/span>
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\n<\/span>Here are the further resources (if other articles of a similar dispassionate, non-polemical nature are discovered, I will gladly add them to the list):<\/span>
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\n<\/span>Waterboarding: Pro and Con<\/a> [extensive discussion on my Facebook page as to whether it is \u201ctorture\u201d and therefore, intrinsically wrong; 5 May 2014; 448 comments]\u00a0<\/span>
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\n<\/span>Clarification of My Position on the Torture \/ Interrogation Issue<\/a> [Facebook, 30 Dec. 2014 + very lengthy and civil discussion, with <\/span>1,013 comments] [See also a second follow-up Facebook discussion<\/a>, with 357 comments]<\/span>
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\n<\/span>Sick and Tired of Controversy<\/a> [Facebook, 6 January 2015]\u00a0<\/span>
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\n<\/span>\u00a0Lies About My Position Regarding Torture and Waterboarding<\/a> [26 January 2015; see also accompanying Facebook discussion<\/a>]\u00a0<\/span>
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\n<\/span>\u201cLive Chat\u201d Exchange with Mark Shea on Waterboarding<\/a> [30 January 2015; see also accompanying Facebook discussion<\/a>]\u00a0<\/span>
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\n<\/span>Waterboarding: How and Why I Changed My Mind<\/a> [Facebook, 31 January 2015]\u00a0<\/span>
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\n<\/span>Sounds Like the Infamous \u201cOrthodoxy Cops\u201d Today!<\/a> [Facebook, 22 March 2015]\u00a0<\/span>
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\n<\/span>Mark Shea Has Managed Yet Again to Absurdly Misrepresent Me Regarding the Waterboarding Issue (See the Ensuing Exchange)<\/a> <\/span>[Facebook, 25 March 2015]<\/span> <\/span><\/span>
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\n<\/span>Exhibit #4,8762,190 Proving that Mark Shea is Clueless When it Comes to 1) Accurately Conveying What Anyone Who Strongly Disagrees with Him Actually Believes; 2) Remembering What Happened in Ancient History (the Previous Month) with Said Persons, and 3) What Waterboarding IS <\/a>[Facebook, 23 April 2015]<\/span> <\/span><\/span>
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\n<\/span>\u201cIt\u2019s Just So Obvious!\u201d: The Case of Torture <\/a>(Dr. Edward Feser, What\u2019s Wrong With the World<\/i>, 2 May 2009; a fantastic<\/i><\/b> article and great comments in the long combox, too) <\/span>
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\n<\/span>Torture and Punishment as a Problem in Catholic Moral Theology: Part I. The Witness of Sacred Scripture<\/a> (Fr. Brian W. Harrison)<\/span>
\nTorture and Punishment as a Problem in Catholic Moral Theology: Part II. The Witness of Tradition and Magisterium<\/a> (Fr. Brian W. Harrison)<\/span>
\nClarification on the Definition of \u201cTorture\u201d<\/a> (Fr. Brian W. Harrison)\u00a0<\/span>
\nThe Church and Torture<\/a> (Fr. Brian W. Harrison, This Rock<\/i>, Dec. 2006)<\/span>
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\n<\/span>What About Torture? <\/a>(Jimmy Akin, 28 June 2004)<\/span>
\nDoubts About Torture <\/a>(Jimmy Akin, 26 Oct. 2006)
\nDefining Torture: An Initial Exploration<\/a> (Jimmy Akin, Nov. 2006)<\/span>
\nDefining Torture: Proposing A Definition<\/a> (Jimmy Akin, Nov. 2006)<\/span>
\nDedining Torture: Two Parameters <\/a>(Jimmy Akin, Nov. 2006)<\/span>
\nDefining Torture: One More Thought<\/a> (Jimmy Akin, Nov. 2006)\u00a0<\/span>
\nIntrinsic Evil <\/a>(Jimmy Akin, Nov. 2006)\u00a0<\/span>
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\n<\/span>\u2018Tiresome\u2019 anti-torturers<\/a> (Todd M. Aglialoro, Crisis Magazine<\/i>, 25 Jan. 2010)\u00a0<\/span>
\nWhat About Waterboarding?<\/a> (Todd M. Aglialoro, Catholic Answers Blog<\/i>, 1 May 2014)<\/span>
\nWaterboarding Reconsidered<\/a> (Michelle Arnold, Catholic Answers Blog<\/i>, 3 May 2014) [reply to the article above it]\u00a0 <\/span>
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\n<\/span>\u00a0On Torture, \u201cAggressive Interrogation\u201d and The Military Commissions Act of 2006 <\/span><\/a>
\n(Christopher Blosser, Against the Grain<\/i>, 2 Oct. 2006)<\/span>
\n\u201cThe Torture Debate\u201d \u2013 Part III<\/a> (Christopher Blosser, Against the Grain<\/i>, 15 Oct. 2006)<\/span>
\nThe Torture Debate \u2013 Pt. IV (Roundup) <\/a>(Christopher Blosser, Against the Grain<\/i>, 26 Oct. 2006)<\/span>
\nSo what do I think about Torture? <\/a>(Christopher Blosser, Against the Grain<\/i>,\u00a0 12 Nov. 2006)<\/span>
\nMark Shea, Jimmy Akin, Fr. Harrison and the \u201cTorture Debate\u201d<\/a> (Christopher Blosser, Against the Grain<\/i>,\u00a0 14 Nov. 2006)<\/span>
\nRewarding Bad Behavior?\u00a0 On Fr. Neuhaus and Mark Shea<\/a> (Christopher Blosser, Against the Grain<\/i>,\u00a0 14 June 2007)\u00a0<\/span>
\nTorture in the News <\/a>(Christopher Blosser, Against the Grain<\/i>, 23 Dec. 2008)<\/span>
\nA Brief response to Mark Shea <\/a>(Christopher Blosser, Against the Grain<\/i>, 29 Jan. 2009) <\/span>
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\n<\/span>Separating the Wheat from the Chaff in the Great Torture Debate <\/a>(Christopher Blosser, The American Catholic<\/i>, 22 Jan. 2010)<\/span>
\nCatholic Advocacy of Torture: A Teaching Moment for the Catholic Bishops?<\/a> (Christopher Blosser, First Things<\/i>, 12 Feb. 2010)<\/span>
\nWaterboarding is for Pansies\u00a0<\/a> (Christopher Blosser, Against the Grain<\/i>, 24 May 2011)<\/span>
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\n<\/span>Interrogational Torture<\/a> (Patrick Lee, American Journal of Jurisprudence<\/i>: Vol. 51: Issue 1, Article 5; 2006)\u00a0\u00a0<\/span>
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\n<\/span>Rick Santorum: \u201cI Do Not Believe [Enhanced Interrogation] is Torture\u201d<\/a> (Lisa Graas, The American Catholic<\/i>, 19 May 2011)<\/span>
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\n<\/span>\u201cTorture\u201d and the Pro-Life Cause <\/a>(Austin Ruse, The Catholic Thing<\/i>, 18 Feb. 2010)\u00a0<\/span>
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\n<\/span>Abortion, Torture, and the Juice-Box Theologians<\/a> (Austin Ruse, Crisis Magazine<\/i>, 30 Jan. 2015) <\/span>
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\n<\/span>Waterboarding, Torture, and Me<\/a> (Dennis Bartlett, The Catholic Thing<\/i>, 20 May 2009)\u00a0<\/span>
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\n<\/span>Torture: Historical and Ethical Perspectives\u00a0<\/a> (Unam Sanctam Catholicam<\/i> website, Dec. 2014; superb and very helpful historical survey; comes down against CIA practices, including \u2014 presumably \u2014 waterboarding)<\/span>
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\n<\/span>The Catholic Defender: The Torture Debate<\/a> (Donald Hartley, Deeper Truth<\/i>,\u00a0 31 Jan. 2015)<\/span>
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\n<\/span>[see also the accompanying Facebook discussion<\/a>] <\/span>
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