* * * * *<\/div>\n
\n<\/i>Is God in time or is he timeless?<\/span><\/p>\nObviously the latter.<\/p>\n
Either stance a Christian takes leads to some kind of incoherence.<\/span><\/p>\nNo; saying He is in time leads to insuperable logical and biblical difficulties. Being out of time does not.<\/p>\n
Let me simply use Christian philosopher Paul Helm\u2019s analysis of this in \u201cGod and Spacelessness,\u201d Philosophy 55 (1980).<\/span><\/p>\nHelm begins with two authors who made similar claims against the timelessness of God. J. R. Lucas made this claim: \u201cTo say that God is outside time, as many theologians do, is to deny, in effect, that God is a person.\u201d He reasons that to be a person is to have a mind, and to have a mind requires that it be in time (i.e., thoughts require a sequence of events, etc.).<\/span><\/p>\nFor finite created beings, sure. But an infinite, self-existent, timeless, omniscient being overcomes this limitation, it seems to me. If a being knows everything at once, no sequence is required to \u201cwork through\u201d the patterns of thinking and analysis that we are familiar with, as finite creatures.<\/p>\n
A.N. Prior claimed that a proposition such as \u201cIt is raining now\u201d is not equivalent in meaning to \u201cIt is raining on Tuesday,\u201d and that an omniscient God who knew the latter would not necessarily know the former,<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nI don\u2019t follow this reasoning. I\u2019d have to see the basis for why this person thought that.<\/span><\/p>\nand would not know it if he were timeless, since he could not be present on the occasion on which it was raining.<\/span><\/p>\nOmnipresence would overcome that. Omniscience, too. I don\u2019t see the point of projecting inherent human limitations onto God. Atheists often complain that God is a projection. Yet here the sub-orthodox thinkers do exactly the same thing. The Christian, on the other hand, accepts God as He has revealed Himself to be. The Christian God is not the sort of being Who could readily be made up by man, precisely because His nature is so much more complex than ours and difficult to comprehend.<\/p>\n
[These are pretty persuasive arguments, I might add].<\/span><\/p>\nReally? I don\u2019t see that they are, based on the summary. I would need to see more to understand how they argued their case in full.<\/p>\n
But Helm argues against both authors by merely showing that such a claim also entails the denial that God is spaceless, which in turn denies that God is infinite \u2013 something these authors want to maintain. Helm writes that \u201cthe arguments used to show that God is in time, in effect support the view that God is finite, and so anyone who wishes to maintain that God is infinite, as the traditional theist does, will either have to find other arguments for the view that God is in time, or eschew the idea of God being in time altogether\u201d \u2013 this is the dilemma Helm presents to these authors. And he claims, \u201cif the timeless existence of God is incoherent then so is the spaceless existence of God.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nA spirit does not have spatial qualities.<\/p>\n
[I happen to agree that they are both incoherent].<\/span><\/p>\nBig surprise!<\/p>\n
Helm does not try to show that God is in fact timeless, nor is his purpose to show that the logic of these two authors is wrong. He admits that he doesn\u2019t even fully understand what it means to say God is both timeless and spaceless. He\u2019s only claiming that a denial of God\u2019s timelessness is also a denial of God\u2019s spacelessness.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nAfter making his arguments he leaves the reader with three alternative consequences to choose from:<\/span><\/p>\n1) \u201cTheism is even more incoherent than was previously thought, in that it requires unintelligibilities such as a timeless and spaceless existence.\u201d [To this I completely agree with him here.]<\/span><\/p>\n2) Recognize that since the belief in God requires an infinite and spaceless God \u201cthere must be something wrong\u201d with the arguments against the timelessness of God.\u201d [However, it\u2019s far from the case that the Bible describes anything but God\u2019s activity in time, especially with the purported incarnation. Nicholas Wolterstroff\u2019s essay, \u201cGod Everlasting\u201d has more than sufficiently shown this, as has Clark Pinnock\u2019s essays and books.] The Bible simply does not require that God is timeless. This view of God has been something fully adopted because of neo-Platonism and finally codified by Anselm\u2019s conception of the \u201cgreatest conceivable being.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n3) These authors must \u201csupply an argument against God\u2019s timelessness that does not have a spatial parallel.\u201d [To date this challenge has not been sufficiently met].<\/span><\/p>\nI would argue, as always, that the Bible is presented in pre-philosophical language. Therefore, one can say that the doctrines later developed to a very high degree by theologians, are usually not found fully-developed in the Bible. Again, this is because it is not presented in philosophical, or \u201cGreek\u201d terms, for the most part, excepting some portions of Paul, and things like Logos<\/span> (\u201cword\u201d) in John, which was, I believe, Greek philosophical terminology.<\/p>\nOn the other hand, it is obvious that God must be outside of time, if one accepts the description of Him that the Bible offers.<\/p>\n
For example: how does God create everything that exists, while still being in time? How does He create the universe in such a fashion? There is no time, according to modern physics, without the matter which time entails in order to have any meaning. An eternal, omniscient spirit is not subject to time because there is no sequence to either His existence or \u201cthoughts.\u201d<\/p>\n
One has to explain how there can be some mysterious thing called \u201ctime\u201d before there was a material universe. What would it be<\/span>? How could it be defined<\/span>? What sense does it make to say that an eternal spirit-being is \u201cin\u201d it? What then changes when matter is introduced to the set of \u201creal\u201d things?<\/p>\nBoth Newtonian and relativistic Einsteinian time depend on a material universe by which they are determined and measured: this involves the relationship of matter with other matter. Time is indeed another dimension (at least as I understand relativity, in layman\u2019s terms).<\/p>\n
Therefore, it is impossible, even by modern physics standards, and any reasonable form of philosophy, to say that God could be \u201cin time\u201d and create the universe while being in such a state. It\u2019s a meaningless concept<\/span>. Whatever the truth is, it can\u2019t be that, because it is nonsensical and utterly illogical.<\/p>\nSecondly, the Bible gives ample indication of timelessness; e.g., the description of God, \u201cI AM,\u201d from the burning bush and Moses (Exodus 3:14-15). Jesus later repeated this (because He, too, is an eternal being), in saying, \u201cBefore Abraham was, I am\u201d [ego eimi<\/i>] (John 8:58). See also: Gen 21:33, Ps 90:2, Is 40:28, Hab 1:12, Rom 16:26, 1 Tim 1:17.<\/p>\n
Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament<\/i>) explains the \u201cI am\u201d clauses:<\/p>\nThe formulas [eimi<\/i>: \u2018to exist\u2019 and ho on<\/i>: \u2018I am\u2019] express God\u2019s deity and supratemporality. Similar formulas occur in Judaism. The Greeks also use two- and three-tense formulas to express eternity (cf. Homer, Plato . . .). These possibly came into Revelation by way of the Jewish tradition, though a common source may lie behind the Greek and Jewish traditions.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>ego eimi<\/i> as a self-designation of Jesus in Jn. 8:58 (cf. 8:24; 13:19) stands in contrast to the genesthai<\/i> applied to Abraham. Jesus thus claims eternity . . . The point is not Jesus\u2019 self-identification as the Messiah (\u2018I am he\u2019) but his supratemporal being.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>(pp. 206-207 of one-volume edition)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\nThe section on aion<\/i> (\u201cage, aeon\u201d) elaborates:<\/span><\/p>\nThe double formula \u2018for ever and ever\u2019 (Heb. 1:8), especially in the plural (in Paul and Revelation; cf. also Heb. 13:21; 1 Pet. 4:11), is designed to stress the concept of eternity, as are constructions like that in Eph. 3:21 (\u2018to all generations for ever and ever\u2019).<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>a. aion<\/i> means eternity in the full sense when linked with God (Rom. 16:26; 1 Tim. 1:17; cf. Jer. 10:10)<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>b. In the OT this means first that God always was (Gen. 21:23) and will be (Dt. 5:23), in contrast to us mortals. By the time of Is. 40:28 this comes to mean that God is eternal, the \u2018First and Last,\u2019 whose being is \u2018from eternity to eternity\u2019 (Ps. 90:2). Eternity is unending time, but in later Judaism it is sometimes set in antithesis to time. The NT took over the Jewish formulas but extended eternity to Christ (Heb. 1:10 ff.; Rev. 1:17-18; 2:8). Here again eternity could be seen as the opposite of cosmic time, God\u2019s being and acts being put in terms of pre- and post- (1 Cor. 2:7; Col. 1:26; Eph. 3:9; Jn. 17:24; 1 Pet. 1:20).<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>(pp. 31-32)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\nThe word was used in the Septuagint translation of the OT (LXX). Plato had used it in the sense of \u201ctimeless eternity in contrast to chronos<\/i> as its moving image in earthly time (cf. Philo)\u201d (p. 31).<\/span><\/p>\nSo this is how the word was understood. The Greek translators thought it was best to apply this word to God, and the increased development of understanding of philosophical-type issues of this sort added clarification to the Jewish and later Christian doctrine of God.<\/p>\n
That is, Helm argues that one can either, a) Deny (or accept) the unintelligible existence of both a timeless and spaceless God,<\/span><\/p>\nI suspect that he would frame the question as being ultimately mysterious and difficult to human minds, but not \u201cunintelligible\u201d \u2013 which implies an irrationality and unreasonableness to the Christian doctrine of God. Helm appears to be an orthodox Christian, from what I can tell (he and I would agree on the doctrine of God).<\/p>\n
b) Accept the consequences of a God who is both in time and finite, or,<\/span><\/p>\nThis is radically unbiblical; hence no Christian who accepts biblical inspiration could possibly take this view.<\/p>\n
c) Supply other arguments on behalf of a God who is in time which does not also deny God\u2019s spacelessness. Not being able to do (c) presents the dilemma of choosing either (a) or (b).<\/span><\/p>\nGod cannot be in time, according to the Bible, or any rational belief that He created the universe. The first scenario is impossible exegetically, the second, logically, and scientifically (i.e., if one presupposes a creator and then subjects such a concept to theoretical scientific analysis).<\/p>\n
Here is a Christian philosopher of some note who recognizes a very serious problem in reconciling God and time. He makes my case for me.<\/span><\/p>\nI suspect you are slanting his full argument. If he is orthodox, he would not put it in such despairing terms. He would say it was ultimately a mystery (meaning we can\u2019t fully<\/i> understand or comprehend it; not that it is literally irrational).<\/p>\n
On the one hand we have the Bible, which clearly shows God responds to us in time,<\/span><\/p>\nYes, of course. It must do so, in the sense of anthropomorphism, precisely because we can barely comprehend a timeless being. But God does break into time. We see that with the incarnation. Jesus lived in history. When God took on matter and a human body, the incarnate God subjected Himself to time, because that is the nature of matter and human bodies. It\u2019s not a contradiction because God created time and matter; therefore He can partake of it if He so chooses, in terms of becoming incarnate.<\/p>\n
along with the philosophical arguments of J.R. Lucas and A.N. Prior. On the other hand, a being in time also denies that God is spaceless. Which is it?<\/span><\/p>\nI have given the orthodox Christian, biblical view of God. It is not incoherent or illogical at all.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
Art Deco clock over the entry doors in the lobby of the Gulf Tower in Pittsburgh; photo by David Brossard: 4 May 2013 [Wikimedia Commons \/\u00a0Creative Commons\u00a0Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic\u00a0license] *** (11-30-06) *** The following exchange took place at Debunking Christianity blog, with John W. Loftus, former Church of Christ pastor and now an atheist. […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":4601,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124,172],"tags":[1043,1338,258,1468,648,1466,647,1465,1467],"class_list":["post-1394","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","category-trinitarianism-christology","tag-anti-theism","tag-atemporality","tag-atheism","tag-attributes-of-god","tag-debunking-christianity","tag-eternity","tag-john-loftus","tag-timeless","tag-transcendence"],"yoast_head":"\n
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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Is God in Time? (vs. Atheist Webmaster John W. Loftus)","description":"Is God in time? He must be outside of time, if one accepts the description of Him that the Bible offers. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1394","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1394"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1394\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/4601"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1394"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1394"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1394"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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