\n
(5-24-06)<\/p>\n
***<\/p>\n<\/div>\n
A fellow Christian has stated on my blog that he is troubled by certain objections raised by a certain atheist, concerning hell (the ones listed below). At that point, my duty as an apologist kicked in: if someone is struggling with the reasoning behind some false teaching and is honest enough to admit this (even publicly, which I greatly admire) in an effort to get some encouragement and assistance from his Christian brethren, then I must respond, even if I feel that the source of the conflict is a nutcase (as this person pretty much is). So here we go. I\u2019ll deal with each one (the atheist\u2019s words will be in<\/span> blue<\/span>):
\n
\n3. If Hell is very painful then surely the time must come when the souls there will think that they have had enough and repent and go back to God. If there is free will in Hell then the souls there would repent and go back to God.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nThis rests on several fallacies:<\/span><\/p>\n1. Concerning what it truly means to have a free will.<\/span><\/p>\nIn Christian terms, to be truly free is to follow God and to become more and more holy by His grace, because that is our purpose: why we were created, and therefore what makes us the most happy and fulfilled. Human beings, however, do not have a free will apart from this grace of God, because they are in rebellion against God (the Christian doctrine of the fall and original sin). Now, rather than always desire to follow God and achieve freedom to be what we were intended to be, we have a strong tendency to sin and rebellion against God. The grace is available to all, yet some reject it. The ones who reject this grace and the God Who freely gives it, in love, are simply not free. They are in an abnormal, fallen state. Therefore, souls in hell no longer even have the capacity to freely choose God, since that very choice is made possible only by God\u2019s grace, which is no longer available in hell, by definition, because hell is existence without God at all, by the choice of the persons who end up there.<\/span><\/p>\n2. The denial that there can be a profoundly, utterly obstinate will, even if \u201cfree\u201d and the myth that a \u201cfree\u201d will would always, naturally choose to follow God (that being a far better and more rational choice than hellfire and eternal punishment).<\/span><\/p>\nThis is closely related to #1. Setting aside the important question of whether a rebellious will is truly free or not, we can also argue that there is such a thing as a will so stubborn and rebellious that it has essentially created its own demise, in terms of no longer being able to change and repent while in a damned reprobate state, in hell. C.S. Lewis made a very famous statement that \u201cthe doors of hell are locked on the inside<\/span>.\u201d The person in hell wanted <\/span>to live separate from God. That was his or her choice.<\/span><\/p>\nNow, granted, they didn\u2019t fully think through what hell entailed<\/span>. This was part of the devil\u2019s deception and game that he plays, so that people will reject God and actually think that the alternative: life without God, is preferable; even far better than life with God. We see this mentality in off-the-cuff remarks of \u201cgreat parties in hell\u201d or \u201cthe saints are boring and no fun at all\u201d or the infantile mindset that we find in, for example, atheist Billy Joel\u2019s song, Only the Good Die Young<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\nThis life is a period of grace for all men. God makes the choice to follow Him freely available to all (universal atonement, over against the heretical and unbiblical limited atonement of Calvinism). We don\u2019t yet know what life truly without God is actually like. That remains to be seen and experienced in hell. But God simply lets those who wish to reject Him do so. It has consequences; people are warned about it in the Bible and in sermons. They know enough to know that it is undesirable to go to hell. So what grounds do they have to want to get out of it, having achieved their wish?<\/span><\/p>\nThat is simply how reality works: life without God in eternity is a dreadful, horrific thing called hell. The guy who wrote these objections has been fully warned about hell, because he writes about how he disagrees with the doctrine. So he knows about it, but rejects<\/span> it and God<\/span>. So he may end up there himself (if he willfully rejects God and the gospel with full awareness that it is true), but if so, he won\u2019t have any grounds in reason or justice to be allowed out<\/span> of it.<\/span><\/p>\n3. The notion that the punishment in hell somehow becomes unjust simply because persons there figure out that they messed up in rejecting God in the first place, therefore ending up in torment, and that God ought to \u201cchange His mind\u201d and let them out.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nThis is a fallacy (which lies underneath<\/span> the claim above) because it presupposes that God\u2019s mercy and forgiveness must necessarily last forever<\/span>. But why should that be the case? On what reasonable or moral grounds? If indeed, God has freely provided mercy and grace and the ability to be saved and go to heaven, during our entire lifetimes on earth, why would He be obliged to do so forever? Why must we assume that this isn\u2019t sufficient or that it doesn\u2019t allow adequate recourse or access to the knowledge of what it takes to avoid hell and attain eternal life in heaven (entirely by grace, but requiring also our assent)?<\/span><\/p>\nIn fact, there is no basis to this objection at all. It may falsely assume that people end up in hell due to ignorance and no particular fault of their own (which might conceivably apply as a critique of supralapsarian Calvinism) and deny original sin and the rebellion of the human race, but the biblical and Catholic and Orthodox and non-Calvinist Protestant teaching is that sinner freely reject God after having been given ample opportunity to repent and follow Him. So why must God give them another chance, when they have had a lifetime of chances already? Irrevocable reality intervenes at some point. In this instance it is called hell: life without God: with no love or grace or good or true or righteous.<\/span><\/p>\n8. Hell implies that God and the saints cannot want you to be released from Hell for God keeps you there for you would leave eventually if you were there of your own free will which glorifies hatred.<\/span><\/p>\nThe second clause was dealt with in my reply above. As for the first part: it is irrational, based on the above, on the following grounds: it presupposes the fallacy that God and the saints don\u2019t want <\/span>someone (or any and all of the damned) to be saved simply because there was an irrevocable decision that a person would be damned, made after an entire lifetime of opportunity to avoid such a fate. It doesn\u2019t follow that they don\u2019t desire the salvation of all because (in the end) some reject<\/span> that salvation. God merely leaves them to their desires and fate. One might argue that<\/span> this is the utmost honoring of man\u2019s dignity and free will, on God\u2019s part: He values free will so much that He even allows men to reject Him. He doesn\u2019t force anyone to follow Him.<\/span><\/p>\nThey don\u2019t want you to leave then they either do not care about you or they hate you<\/span><\/p>\nThis doesn\u2019t follow at all, because it is based on the same fallacious reasoning: that an obstinate rebellious free will must somehow (by some weird logic) \u201cprove\u201d that God and the saints didn\u2019t want the obstinate soul to become open and enable itself to be saved by God\u2019s grace. That doesn\u2019t follow at all.<\/span><\/p>\nbut since they are happy they must simply not care for hate is painful.<\/span><\/p>\nHappiness in heaven is first and foremost because the saints are with God, for which they were created. So they will obviously be happy. As for regret about damned people, we don\u2019t know all the ins and outs of that from revelation alone, but we know that God must at some point wipe away memories (just as He will our \u201ctears\u201d); otherwise we couldn\u2019t be totally happy in heaven (we would be mourning the lost forever). In any event, it doesn\u2019t follow that the happiness in heaven involves a callous unconcern for the damned. We are showing our great concern now<\/span> by warning people so they can avoid this fate, But we are mocked and laughed at, precisely by people like this atheist who cry out against the supposed \u201cinjustice\u201d of hell the most.<\/span><\/p>\nIf this atheist died an hour after reading this paper, then God could very well say to Him: \u201cdid you not read Dave Armstrong\u2019s paper on the last day of your life, which warned you about hell and showed you how your objections are irrational and groundless?\u201d And he will say (head hanging down low in shame) \u201cyes.\u201d Then God could say something like: \u201cthen on what grounds do you accuse Me of being unjust and unmerciful and cruel, when I have sent you messengers of warning and heralds of my gospel of salvation throughout your entire life \u2013 even on your last day, an hour before you died \u2013 , so that you could follow Me and be saved?\u201d And he won\u2019t be able to say anything. He chose to reject God, and now the time has come to start being so free that He will be able to live absolutely<\/span> apart from God, and to see what that is really<\/span> like. It\u2019s a very tragic thing, but neither God nor Christians can be blamed for it. The blame lies with every obstinate, rebellious sinner who continually spurns and rejects God. It is the sad aspect of allowing free will. With free will, you have some people making stupid, tragic choices.<\/span><\/p>\nBut indifference is worse than hate and is the real opposite of love.<\/span><\/p>\nThat\u2019s true. See; even within this absurd post there is some truth to be found. Even an unplugged clock is right twice a day!<\/span><\/p>\nAlso, they have to decide to be indifferent<\/span><\/p>\nThere is no indication in the Bible that saved persons decide to be indifferent (that\u2019s simply more irrational, wishful thinking on the atheist\u2019s part). It is perfectly acceptable, then, to posit exactly what I did, above: God removes the memory of damned loved ones out of love for those who are saved, so they won\u2019t suffer indefinitely, just as we do on earth when loved ones go astray.<\/span><\/p>\nand that is an act of easy hate so hate and indifference are connected. If you should hate the damned you should hate the living sinners as much because many of the damned are people who committed relatively harmless sins.<\/span><\/p>\nChristianity doesn\u2019t teach us to hate anyone (with the possible exception of the devil), so this is a red herring which need not be replied to. It assumes what it is trying to prove. The nature of the depth and blameworthiness of sins is another huge topic beyond our purview here.<\/span><\/p>\n10. If God really hated sin and suffering he would give us a second chance to repent after death.<\/span><\/p>\nThis was already covered above. But I could reply further by asking, \u201cwhy is God required<\/span> to give \u2018one more chance\u2019 at death after He has given chances to repent for 50, 60, 70 or more years, throughout a person\u2019s entire lifetime?\u201d This is an irrational requirement. I think all it is, is the atheist saying, \u201chey, I didn\u2019t know enough to follow You during my life because of my stubbornness and illogical, silly ideas I picked up from my atheist friends and secular propaganda. But now I know enough because I am standing in front of you and can no longer deny that you exist and that there is a hell for those who disbelieve you.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nBut again, this wrongly presupposes that 1) the person didn\u2019t have enough information to decide for or against God previously (which Christians absolutely deny), and\/or 2) that the person was treated unfairly in being damned, and\/or 3) that his sin was not sufficient to warrant damnation, by its very nature. So premises are questionable and by no means self-evident or strongly supported, all down the line here.<\/span><\/p>\nLastly, I have asserted that God is not required<\/span> to do give a \u201csecond chance\u201d after death, and that if He didn\u2019t allow it, there would be no grounds to accuse Him of injustice, cruelty, or unfairness. I could just as easily argue, however, that God (knowing everything) gives every person a special amount of grace just before<\/span> they die, so they have every chance to accept His grace and salvation. That would be no different from such a moment immediately after death.<\/span><\/p>\nBut in any event, Christians hold that all men have sufficient knowledge to attain salvation, either through outward revelation and witness or one\u2019s conscience and a simple observation of the world, which reveals a Creator (Romans 1:18-23), thus leaving no \u201cexcuse\u201d for those who reject God (1:20); who do so willingly, knowing the truth (1:21-22).<\/span><\/p>\nThat<\/span> is Christian, biblical teaching, agree or disagree. Since the relentless critique of this atheist (and most <\/span>irrational skeptical types) concerns a supposed internal inconsistency<\/span> of Christianity, then it is required that the critic at least know<\/span> what we teach in the first place<\/span>. But of course they rarely properly understand Christian teaching (and know less than nothing about sensible biblical interpretation, leading to many ridiculous, laughable arguments and \u201cproofs\u201d), which causes 90% of the problems in dealing with them (along with their endless false premises and illogical, incoherent thought).<\/span><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"Photo by \u201cskeeze\u201d (Nov. 2015) [Pixabay \/ CC0 public domain] *** (5-24-06) *** A fellow Christian has stated on my blog that he is troubled by certain objections raised by a certain atheist, concerning hell (the ones listed below). At that point, my duty as an apologist kicked in: if someone is struggling with the […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":9120,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[583],"tags":[197,1053,85,2358,196,225],"class_list":["post-1558","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-hell-satan-last-things","tag-damnation","tag-eternal-punishment","tag-gehenna","tag-hell","tag-reprobation","tag-the-lost"],"yoast_head":"\n
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Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1558","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1558"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1558\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/9120"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1558"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1558"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1558"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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