{"id":15973,"date":"2018-02-19T14:26:51","date_gmt":"2018-02-19T18:26:51","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=15973"},"modified":"2018-02-19T14:26:51","modified_gmt":"2018-02-19T18:26:51","slug":"veneration-bowing-angel-joshua-513-15","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2018\/02\/veneration-bowing-angel-joshua-513-15.html","title":{"rendered":"Veneration of &#038; Bowing Before an Angel (Joshua 5:13-15)"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p style=\"text-align: center;\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone wp-image-15976 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2018\/02\/MichaelArchangel.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"513\" height=\"768\"><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">Veneration of an angel occurs in this passage: if it is Michael, as Augustine &amp; Jerome thought.<\/p>\n<p>***<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Joshua 5:13-15<\/strong> (RSV) When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man stood before him with his drawn sword in his hand; and Joshua went to him and said to him, \u201cAre you for us, or for our adversaries?\u201d [14] And he said, \u201cNo; but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.\u201d And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and worshiped [<em>shachah<\/em>], and said to him, \u201cWhat does my lord bid his servant?\u201d [15] And the commander of the LORD\u2019s army said to Joshua, \u201cPut off your shoes from your feet; for the place where you stand is holy.\u201d And Joshua did so.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>I bet no one can remember ever hearing about <em>this<\/em>\u00a0passage in a Protestant sermon!<\/p>\n<p>Bernard Orchard\u2019s 1953 <em>Catholic Commentary<\/em> says it may be an angel (possibly Michael) or God Himself, but leans toward the latter.\u00a0Keil &amp; Delitzsch think it is the Angel of the Lord, which means basically identical to God.<\/p>\n<p>But even if we conclude that it is God here (and it may be), we have the following:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><strong>1 Chronicles 29:20<\/strong>\u00a0Then David said to all the assembly, \u201cBless the LORD your God.\u201d And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads, and worshiped [<em>shachah<\/em>] the LORD, and did obeisance [<em>shachah<\/em>] to the king. [KJV: \u201cworshipped the LORD, and the king\u201d]<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>That\u2019s veneration of a man, any way you look at it. The same Hebrew word is used in both instances.<\/p>\n<p>The <a href=\"https:\/\/hermeneutics.stackexchange.com\/questions\/860\/is-the-captain-of-the-lords-host-an-angel-or-god-himself\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><em>Biblical Hermeneutics \/ Stack Exchange<\/em><\/a>\u00a0(non-Catholic) website states:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>T<span data-ft='{\"tn\":\"K\"}'><span class=\"UFICommentBody\">he text twice identifies the figure as \u201cthe captain of the Lord\u2019s host\u201d, not the Lord Himself. The title itself seems strong evidence that someone other than the Lord is indicated.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><em>Haydock\u2019s Catholic Bible Commentary<\/em> on these verses:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Ver. 14. Prince of the host of the Lord, &amp;c. St. Michael, who is called prince of the people of Israel, Daniel x. 21. (Challoner) \u2014 Some of the Fathers explain it of the son of God. (Origen, hom. 6.) But St. Augustine, City of God xi. 13., St. Jerome in Galatians iii., and interpreters in general agree, that the person who here appeared to Josue, was the archangel Michael. He came, in the name of God, to assure Josue of success, as the angel had appeared to Moses in the burning bush, as if to denote the distress of the Hebrews, and to encourage Moses to undertake their liberation. (Calmet) \u2014 Chaldean, \u201cI am the angel sent by God.\u201d In that character he is called the Lord. (Haydock)<\/p>\n<p>Ver. 15. Worshipping. Not with divine honour, but with a religious veneration of an inferior kind, suitable to the dignity of his person. (Challoner) \u2014 He styles the angel Adonai, which is a title frequently given to men; and hence he does not seem to have designed to give him supreme worship. (Calmet) \u2014 If he did, (Haydock) it was referred to God. (Calmet) (Exodus xx.)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>From the Catholic Answers forum:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>A: The passage states that a man appeared and does not say an angel.<\/p>\n<p>B: There is a similarity between this man\u2019s appearance to Joshua and the appearance of three men to Abraham in Genesis 18. Although Scripture refers to these three individuals as \u201cmen\u201d in Genesis 18:2, yet at least two of them seem to be referred to as \u201cangels\u201d in Genesis 19:1. There is also a similarity with the \u201cman\u201d with whom Jacob wrestled in Genesis 32:26, yet whom Hosea 12:4 referred to as an \u201cangel.\u201d Also see Hebrews 13:2 where Scripture tells us that some entertained angels unawares.<\/p>\n<p>A: Also, in Verse 6:2, it states the Lord spoke, this being the man in Verse 5:14-15.<\/p>\n<p>B: When it says that the LORD spoke to Joshua, that may not necessarily mean that this man is the LORD. It may mean that the LORD spoke through this man (angel). In Isaiah 7:10 it says, \u201cAgain the LORD spoke to Ahaz,\u201d yet from the context it seems that, \u2018Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz through the prophet Isaiah,\u2019 as it says in Jeremiah 37:2 that the LORD \u201cspoke through the prophet Jeremiah\u201d in Jeremiah 37:2.<\/p>\n<p>A: This with the fact that an angel would have not permitted Joshua to worship, I would say this is Jesus<\/p>\n<p>B: The fact that Joshua worshiped this individual is not as clear an indication as you propose. The Hebrew word <em>shachah<\/em>, which is translated here as worship, is sometimes in Scripture translated as obeisance, the type of reverence a man might justly give to a man who is his superior or that a man might justly give to an angel. This is the type of reverence that Joseph\u2019s brothers offered him (Genesis 43:28), that Moses offered his father-in-law (Exodus 18:7), and that his mother offered King Solomon (1 Kings 1:16), etc.<\/p>\n<p>The man who appeared to Joshua may indeed be the Son of God but the text is ambiguous enough so that it cannot be completely ruled out that he was instead an angel.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Catholics would say, of course, that this is veneration of an angel: if it is Michael here, as Augustine and Jerome thought. Hence, the title of my post. That is distinct from adoration of God. But this may also be the Angel of the Lord. It doesn\u2019t seem to be possible to be certain which is the case, with this particular text.<\/p>\n<p>[see also, the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\/posts\/645478032153852\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">extensive discussion in the original Facebook posting<\/a>]<\/p>\n<p>***<\/p>\n<p>(originally 9-7-13)<\/p>\n<p><strong>Photo credit:<\/strong>\u00a0<span style=\"color: #0000ff;\"><em>Archangel Michael<\/em>\u00a0(c. 1636), by Guido Reni (1575-1642)<\/span> [public domain \/ <a href=\"https:\/\/commons.wikimedia.org\/wiki\/File:Guido_Reni_031.jpg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n<p>***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Veneration of an angel occurs in this passage: if it is Michael, as Augustine &amp; Jerome thought. *** Joshua 5:13-15 (RSV) When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man stood before him with his drawn sword in his hand; and Joshua went to him and said to [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":15976,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[206],"tags":[512,513,266,201,511,510,265,263],"class_list":["post-15973","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-saints-purgatory-penance","tag-angel-of-the-lord","tag-angelology","tag-angels","tag-communion-of-saints","tag-honor","tag-veneration","tag-veneration-of-angels","tag-veneration-of-saints"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Veneration of &amp; Bowing Before an Angel (Joshua 5:13-15)<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Veneration of an angel occurs in this passage: if it is the Archangel Michael, as both St. Augustine &amp; St. Jerome &amp; not a few reputable exegetes have thought.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2018\/02\/veneration-bowing-angel-joshua-513-15.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Veneration of &amp; 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Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/15973","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=15973"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/15973\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/15976"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=15973"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=15973"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=15973"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}