Similarly, if God created everything and wanted humanity to know of Him, I would expect the world to know of him. <\/span><\/p>\nAs indeed it does, which is why the vast majority of the people in the world are religious and believe in either a personal God or some extraordinary power beyond mere materialistic nature. Atheists are always a tiny minority.<\/p>\n
He would have revealed himself to the world, in whatever way. <\/span><\/p>\nExactly! Revelation. And that is what we believe the Bible is. The same Bible records historic manifestations of God and His power and character. Most importantly and notably: Jesus of Nazareth.<\/p>\n
The religions and myths across cultures would converge on a common similarity, not vary from animism, to polytheism, to monotheism, and countless more very different categories of beliefs.<\/span><\/p>\nThat doesn\u2019t follow. I have provided evidence that mortality is largely the same, but we would fully expect differences of opinion, just as we find in every other field of thought or inquiry. Some people are right, others wrong, and most of us are a mixture of the two. None of that implies that there is not one truth or one God out there; none of it disproves either thing. All it proves is that people don\u2019t agree on a lot of things.<\/p>\n
Ultimately, the problem of evil makes it difficult for me to believe that there is a good God. <\/span><\/p>\nI think it fails, as I have written about, but I\u2019ve always regarded it as the most serious objection, and so I\u2019ve written about it a lot and debated it.<\/p>\n
Assuming that God did not\u00a0have to<\/i>\u00a0create the world, then he could have chosen not to do so. <\/span><\/p>\nWe agree.<\/p>\n
If he chose to create the world knowing that he would have to create evil at the same time, then his voluntary creation of unnecessary evil flies in the face of his supposed goodness. <\/span><\/p>\nWhat He<\/em> thinks is \u201cunnecessary\u201d and what you do may<\/em> be two very different things.<\/p>\nIf he couldn\u2019t make us without making evil, his goodness should have precluded him making us at all; <\/span><\/p>\nAgain; according to you<\/em>. I happen to think it\u2019s a good thing that I exist, and am here typing this, and that you<\/em> do. I think it\u2019s worth it, and that human beings can experience an amazing joy and peace that doesn\u2019t wipe out suffering, but makes it all bearable. That has been my Christian experience, and that of millions of others. I\u2019m happy to bear witness to it, so that others can share in the Good News. It\u2019s what I do for a living. Life has meaning! It has the utmost purpose! God will make all things right in the end. This world (and this life; an individual\u2019s life) is not all there is.<\/p>\nhis eternal solitude would have been a profound sacrifice for goodness, one that he apparently chose not to make.<\/span><\/p>\nI\u2019m glad He made that choice, and I\u2019m ecstatic that the destiny of all who choose to serve Him and allow His grace to work in their lives is an eternity of bliss in union with Him. I can\u2019t wait to get there. In the meantime I will do all that I can to help others to see that this is the truth and that they can live happy, fulfilled lives on this earth, and have that fantastic future awaiting them in heaven.<\/p>\n
A couple of clarifications may be in order. First, atheists are actually theists revering time and atoms as gods in the same manner that Christians are actually atheists when they don\u2019t act like their prayer will cure a loved one\u2019s cancer. <\/span><\/p>\nThe analogy doesn\u2019t follow. The atheist believes that matter, on its own, based on its inherent capabilities or potentialities, can create the universe out of nothing, and everything in it, which is exactly<\/em><\/strong> what theists believe God<\/em> does. You have simply substituted matter for God. My analogy is almost a perfect one.<\/p>\nChristians believe that there is suffering in the world, for various reasons. Some of it (\u201cnatural evil\u201d) is arguably just the way the world is, by the laws of science, and it is difficult to envision a world with no laws of science, where Oswald\u2019s bullet (God predetermining it) would have turned into jelly just before it entered President Kennedy\u2019s head.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s the sort of world that atheists apparently require in order to get rid of evil and believe in the possibility of God\u2019s existence. I don\u2019t think it makes sense in the end (when thought through), or is plausible. As I argued way back in 2002, in such a world it would be impossible, for example, to do science (because uniformitarianism would be overthrown), and I think that would be a tremendous tragedy.<\/p>\n
As for cancer (which both my parents, my brother, and a very beloved aunt \u2014 and recently a sister-in-law \u2014 died from), Christians believe that their prayers won\u2019t usually<\/em> cure cancer because (as we understand) miracles are very rare and the exception to the rule: by definition. It doesn\u2019t follow that we don\u2019t believe in any<\/em> miracles (like atheists); we simply think they are rare (and that God is not bound to fulfill any given prayer). For the most part, God lets the world operate on natural principles and laws.<\/p>\nWe want to blame cancer on God? Well, He has given us brains to figure out how to prevent it in the first place (and eventually, I believe, to cure it). We know that smoking causes lung cancer. That explains my father and my aunt. My brother did drugs back in the 60s and early 70s, and that may account for his early death (just as it has in the case of many rock stars). He had already had mononucleosis and hepatitis. It was only my mother who didn\u2019t abuse her body in this way. And she was 89 as it was.<\/p>\n
Cancer, then, is one case among many, where oftentimes we bring misery upon ourselves by engaging in unhealthy behavior. Then we want to turn around and blame God for letting people die because of it. He has given us the knowledge to avoid at least some<\/em> forms of cancer (notably, lung). Alcoholics develop liver problems, junk food junkies get diabetes, rock stars die in their 50s because of substance abuse (e.g., Carl Wilson of the Beach Boys and George Harrison: both died at a younger age than I am now: 59), etc.<\/p>\nThat\u2019s what comes with free will. Many people make wrong choices, and that\u2019s not God\u2019s fault because He allowed them to have free will. The knowledge was freely available for them to make better, more healthy choices. It\u2019s their fault because they made bad choices in their lives. I get very tired of God being unjustly blamed for everything (Christians tend to do it, too; not just atheists).<\/p>\n
Neither of those are fair representations of the opponent\u2019s beliefs. <\/span><\/p>\nMine is perfectly fair. If you don\u2019t believe as an atheist that matter brought about \/ created everything in the universe, then please explain to me what else<\/em> did?<\/p>\nAlso, many atheists are rabid science proponents that claim that science is the perfect epistemology in much the same manner that many Christians claim that the Bible is literal and infallible. Again, neither of those represent a more thoughtful view on the respective subject; I may believe that science is a wonderful epistemological method and you may believe the Bible to be infallible, but the rest doesn\u2019t apply.<\/span><\/p>\nI believe in both. I don\u2019t see why they must be opposed to each other. It\u2019s illogical and completely unnecessary. Some<\/em> atheists go too far with science (scientism), and some Christians get dumb and extreme with the Bible. We agree about that.<\/p>\nI still can\u2019t help but feel like the attribution of phenomena to God is a stopping point of inquiry, more than it is a starting point. <\/span><\/p>\nExplain to me, then, a scenario in which we can posit God as some \/ any sort of explanation. If you think every<\/em> time we do it\u2019s a cop-out and \u201cgod of the gaps\u201d then that is simply arbitrary atheist dogmatism. Otherwise, there is some conceivable time where we can<\/em> do so without hearing this silly charge (in which case you have to explain to us what it is; when that conceivably can occur).<\/p>\nAt the outer extremes of each position, one set of presumptions (no God) leads to the belief that anything that we can encounter can be understood; at the other end (with God), it must be assumed that there will be things that we encounter that cannot ever be figured out. <\/span><\/p>\nAgain, we need not talk only of extremes. Both science and theology have mysteries and unknown things, that we can\u2019t fully explain. We appeal to God\u2019s omniscience as a thing inherently higher than ourselves, and expect this. The atheist science appeals to time, chance, the omnipotent qualities of matter, and the wondrous assumed future development of science.<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t object to any particular person finding themselves concluding that God is necessary to explain their world to their satisfaction. <\/span><\/p>\nExcellent! That\u2019s more than many atheists are willing to go. They have to characterize us as gullible, infantile, and believers in fairy tales and silly things like leprechauns. You show yourself to be quite tolerant and sensible!<\/p>\n
At a larger societal level though, I don\u2019t see the conclusion \u201cGod did it\u201d as being conducive to expanding human knowledge (and the benefits that it brings, limited as they often are to material technological conveniences).<\/span><\/p>\nOnce again:\u00a0Explain to me, then, a scenario in which we can posit God as some \/ any sort of explanation, where we are not<\/em> accused of \u201cGod of the gaps.\u201d<\/p>\nI\u2019ll be honest, one of the things I find comforting about believing that there are no Gods is that within that belief system, two things must be true about the universe: it must be consistent in its behaviors and it must be impartial toward humanity. The idea that God is continually doing the things that make the world work, and is only doing so consistently at his whim, is frankly terrifying to me; perhaps I could be more comforted with the thought if it wasn\u2019t for the fact that pretty much every account of God portrays him as taking sides in human affairs. The notion of being on the wrong side of God, especially if it could be done in ignorance, is far more troubling to me than the notion that the universe is never kindly nor wrathful toward me.<\/span><\/p>\nIf God was malevolent or some sort of dictator or tyrant as many atheists (including you?) falsely perceive Him to be, I\u2019d be terrified, too. I\u2019m saying that He is not<\/em> that way, and that what we see in the world that is bad is largely explained by sinful human behavior, and that which is not caused by humans couldn\u2019t be vastly different than what it is without chaos ensuing.<\/p>\nAtheism means that this \u201cconsistency\u201d of the universe that you refer to brings to nought all human efforts. We all die and that\u2019s it. Now you can argue that a life can produce great good and have fulfillment and meaning, and that it\u2019s good in and of itself, regardless of the absence of an afterlife. I agree with that, as far as it goes, but the larger problem is evil, wicked men. In the atheist worldview, they die like all the rest of us and receive no punishment for their great evil.<\/p>\n
They can laugh about and scorn their victims all the way to the grave. There is your \u201cconsistency.\u201d Hitler and Mother Teresa both have the same ultimate fate: nonexistence. Hitler was never punished for his evil, and Mother Teresa wasn\u2019t rewarded for her saintly service to the poor. You may think that is a wonderful or preferable state of affairs; I do not (especially with regard to Hitler).<\/p>\n
In the Christian view, all the scales are evened out in the end, and there is justice, and therefore, ultimate meaning. Whatever evil men did and did not repent of (God will forgive anyone for anything if they repent) will be judged, up to and including an eternal hell of torment.<\/p>\n
No one has to be on the \u201cwrong side\u201d of God if they know what His side is. If someone is merely ignorant, God takes that into consideration. If it is deliberate rejection of God and His moral laws, then it\u2019s different. But God provides the way out, so I don\u2019t see why He should be condemned. He ought to be rapturously praised for His goodness and love.<\/p>\n
Good discussion! Thank you for the time and effort you put into it. And we\u2019ll keep talking about this, if you wish.<\/p>\n
***<\/p>\n
Photo credit:\u00a0<\/strong>God the Father<\/i>: attributed to Cima da Conegliano (1459-1517)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
Anthrotheist made comments underneath my post,\u00a0Dialogue with an Atheist on \u201cGod of the Gaps\u201d (which was a response to him). This is my counter-reply. His words will be in blue. ***** Regarding my thought experiment, I rather expected that the baseline expectation from your side would be a universe in chaos or no universe at […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":20483,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[258,5870,335,177,149,182,5861,174,176,1046],"class_list":["post-20480","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-atheism","tag-atheist-worldview","tag-atheists","tag-evil","tag-free-will","tag-god","tag-god-of-the-gaps","tag-problem-of-evil","tag-sin","tag-theism"],"yoast_head":"\n
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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/20480","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=20480"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/20480\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/20483"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=20480"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=20480"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=20480"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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