* * * * *<\/div>\n
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.<\/p>\n
You start by responding to Dave\u2019s comment\u00a0<\/span>\u201cNone of this proves or disproves Christianity\u2026\u201d\u00a0<\/span>with the statement\u00a0\u201cIf such stories give no reason whatsoever to reject Christianity then (not to be insulting), I humbly submit: what good are they at all?\u201d<\/span>
\n<\/i><\/p>\nYou erroneously equate lack of \u201cproof\u201d with \u201cno reason whatsoever to reject Christianity\u201d. That is a gross misinterpretation. Dave is acknowledging what is manifestly true\u2013that neither side can be PROVEN absolutely. However, proofs are not what we employ when deciding upon empirical matters; we marshal\u00a0evidence. I submit to you (not to be insulting) that the difference is enormous, and that the weight of evidence is not on the side of Christianity.<\/span><\/p>\nThat\u2019s a good point, and it did cross my mind. However, in light of Dave\u2019s later comments, I think I was justified in reading it the way I did, and not in the more technical epistemological sense you suggested. For example, Dave claims in the combox:<\/p>\n
My mind was opened to reality, and is continuing to be opened to reality, as the myths and gods of my youth are abandoned to be replaced by reason.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\nAlso: he describes Christianity as\u00a0\u201cprimitive imaginings\u201d<\/span>\u00a0and a\u00a0\u201cphony cult\u201d<\/span>\u00a0that\u00a0\u201censlave[s] the mind.\u201d<\/span>\u00a0It is supposedly anti-science and (most ridiculous of all) allegedly\u00a0\u201ccaused the Dark Ages.\u201d<\/span>\u00a0To me this implies that somewhere along the line he assumes Christianity has been rationally disproven, or at least so discredited that he has justification to speak in such insulting and derogatory terms.<\/p>\nAnd that gets back to my point: either he thinks his deconversion story offers some of the reasons why he thinks Christianity is false or it doesn\u2019t. If it does, where are they? I saw none as I examined it. If it doesn\u2019t (as I interpreted), then what good is it? Frankly, who\u00a0cares<\/em>\u00a0about horror stories of the ignorant, anti-intellectual fundamentalists he mostly associated with? It may tickle the fancy of former Christians who love to hear these things, but it doesn\u2019t advance the discussion at all. It is merely anecdotes about fools.<\/p>\nAnd I would add that if he couldn\u2019t extricate himself from such know-nothingism for 30 years, what does that say about his intellectual discernment? Does he mean to imply that he couldn\u2019t find a single Christian congregation anywhere for 30 years, that respected the mind and science and philosophy, and had a thought-out view of culture, politics, the arts, etc.? I find that astounding. Catholicism (my group) certainly offers all that. And many Protestant groups and congregations do. I\u2019ve been in them myself (as a former Protestant evangelical). But it doesn\u2019t reflect well on his own judgment as a Christian.<\/p>\n
In response to Dave\u2019s story about asking difficult questions as a child, DA responded\u00a0<\/span><\/span>\u201cI would ask the child back: \u2018why do you presume to question God\u2019s purposes for doing anything, or act as if we would or could or should understand everything that God does, in the first place?'\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nWhat a terrible answer. You are, in effect, saying that the child must simply accept the story as given, without testing it against their own experience or their own notion of justice and compassion. While the latter ought not be the ultimate yard stick, it should certainly sound an alarm if a religious teaching proclaims compassion yet appears to lack it in its most basic teaching. I should think it far better to explain why we should accept that god\u2019s actions appear less charitable than the child\u2019s own would have been, and why the child should continue to seriously question actions that appear unkind or downright devious.<\/span><\/p>\nI didn\u2019t say all that. You read that into what I said. My point was simply to note that we shouldn\u2019t expect to know all about God\u2019s deepest purposes, by the very nature of the case (or Being). Later I made analogies to the many deep mysteries of science (origins of life, DNA, why gravity acts as it does, etc.). I\u2019m contending that if we can acknowledge mystery in science, why not also in theology? In that context I was presupposing belief in God. If you grant that, then given the traditional theistic \/ Jewish \/ Christian concept of a transcendent, monotheistic, omniscient, omnipotent God, it is foolish to think that we can figure all that out, since clearly such a Being is many magnitudes greater in thinking ability.<\/p>\n
That<\/em>\u00a0was my point: not that one should render blind faith, or be a fideist. I have always opposed that. I would never urge that on anyone. Now, if people in your past or Dave\u2019s taught that they were wrong, and I fully agree with your general critique of their mentality.<\/p>\n\u201c\u2026many atheists collapse Christianity into know-nothing fundamentalism, so that it can be dismissed as \u2018anti-intellectual\u2019 and \u2018anti-science\u2019\u2026\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nI don\u2019t know who the \u201cmany\u201d are that you speak of.<\/span><\/p>\nIsn\u2019t it obvious even in this combox? For example:<\/p>\n
rd:<\/p>\n
. . . the total fallacy of religions is anyway? Your longing for a belief in the after life that you are willing to deny the obvious? The obvious truth being, that it\u2019s all a lie.<\/p>\n
Anytime you need faith in order to believe something, you are expected to go beyond your own intellectual honesty and accentually lie to yourself knowing full well deep down inside it could not possibly be true.<\/p>\n
Kill the old self and lie to the new self, step beyond reality into mental delusions of psuedo [sic] grandeur.<\/p>\n
. . . incredable [sic] imbecilic nonsense . . .<\/p><\/blockquote>\n
It was clear in Dave\u2019s deconversion as well. Such rhetoric is very common among atheists \/ agnostics \/ skeptics \/ \u201cfreethinkers\u201d. Look at Dawkins and Hitchens, for heaven\u2019s sake. There are exceptions (you seem to be one of them and I know others personally from the Internet and in \u201creal life\u201d) but I stand by my generalization, based on many years of experience of debates and discussions. I used the word \u201cmany\u201d; not \u201cmost\u201d or \u201calmost all.\u201d<\/p>\n
At exchristian.net there are hundreds of Christian visitors who zealously place themselves into this category by refusing to examine any of their beliefs and by attempting to discredit science in the large with childishly simplistic and fallacious arguments. We, as a rule, do not use such visitors as an excuse to dismiss anything (which is what you are apparently suggesting).<\/span><\/p>\nWhy deal with them at all? If thinking Christians and ex-Christians agree that they shouldn\u2019t be dealt with seriously, then why the obsession with them? It\u2019s because (in my humble opinion) that is the easiest way for an ex-Christian to live with his or her decision to leave Christianity. It\u2019s in their interest to caricature Christianity into the silly anti-intellectual wing of it, so it can be rejected (because even a Christian like myself would readily reject the same things insofar as they are stupid and mindless). You take the very worst, fringe aspects of something in order to reject it.<\/p>\n
In fact, some sites, like\u00a0Debunking Christianity<\/em>, openly state as a matter of emphasis and policy that they are interested mainly if not solely, in dealing with fundamentalist Christianity. 95% or so of the remaining sectors of Christianity are ignored (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, more sophisticated brands of Presbyterianism and Calvinism in general: folks like Alvin Plantinga, Anglo-Catholicism, Methodism, etc.).<\/p>\nSerious analysis of a competing view will deal with the most respectable form of it, not the dumbest and least respectable.<\/p>\n
However, they do get dismissed because they contribute nothing.<\/span><\/p>\nAnd then a serious Christian who comes along gets to deal with all their baggage and the latent hostile attitudes, as if they represented the sum of Christianity . . .<\/p>\n
\u201c\u2026what makes him [Dave] think that he knows better than scholars who have studied these things for years? This is a common motif in atheist deconversions. They know better than everyone else.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nTell me, which scholar should we all listen to?<\/span><\/p>\nI wasn\u2019t talking about any particular one, but all of them as a class. Again, if one is to rationally dismiss a point of view, shouldn\u2019t he at least seek out some of the better representatives of it?<\/p>\n
Yes, of course. Do you imply that people here have not done that?<\/span><\/p>\nMy replies had to do with Dave Van Allen, not all 473 skeptics at\u00a0ExChristian.Net<\/em>.<\/p>\nThat was my point. I kept wondering if Dave had even tried to do that, or if he would ask a question of some pastor who wouldn\u2019t have a clue, and then just give up, as if no Christian on the face of the earth could offer the slightest reply to his probing questions.<\/p>\n
Many made a desperate effort to rescue their waning beliefs by pursuing a wide spectrum of apologetics, looking for something well-founded. The Webmaster himself went though this.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\nIf so, there was no indication of it whatsoever in his anti-testimony.<\/p>\n
It sounds as though you chastise them for not having settled upon your particular brand of Christianity. Each sect could take the same stand (and to a degree, that\u2019s what they do).\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\nMy reply had nothing whatsoever to do with Catholic distinctives over against other brands of Christianity. I never defend Catholicism when debating atheists, but Christianity in general.<\/p>\n
Not everybody thinks Catholicism is the most rational branch of Christianity\u2013I\u2019m sure you are aware of that. (To the regulars here: Please pardon my understatement.)<\/span><\/p>\nNo kidding? I\u2019m so shocked I think I\u2019ll faint.<\/p>\n
You know as well as I that 1) what some scholars have to say is not worthy of the name \u201cscholarship\u201d, and 2) there are legitimate scholars on both sides of practically any issue.<\/span><\/p>\nSure, but that was irrelevant to my point, clarified above.<\/p>\n
In the end, each of us must decide which line of reasoning is most coherent and has the greater force of evidence (thanks, in part, to the efforts of legitimate scholars).<\/span><\/p>\nIndeed. That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying: read the best of both sides, in any given debate, not the best of one and worst of the other, or only one side.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s what I\u2019ve done for close to thirty years. Do you claim to have read the best on both sides?<\/span><\/p>\nI try to familiarize myself with the best arguments, yes (money- and time-permitting). I prefer one-on-one discussion with informed advocates, but it is rare to find such people.<\/p>\n
* * *<\/div>\n
Do I know better than everyone else? No, I don\u2019t believe so, and I don\u2019t claim to. But I have a well-thought-out position\u2013one that is coherent, and has benefited from exposure to nimble minds on both sides (Plantinga, who you mention, is among them).<\/span><\/p>\nGood for you. I would say exactly the same about my own view. Looks like you and I, then, may be able to engage in some excellent, fruitful dialogue. It\u2019s the love of truth and reason and dialogue that allows that to take place.<\/p>\n
Bottom line: don\u2019t dismiss all atheists as simply thinking they are smarter than anybody else.<\/span><\/p>\nMany clearly do think so. Again, I appeal to the rhetoric commonly seen here and in similar places, about how \u201cimbecilic\u201d and \u201cobviously false\u201d Christianity is. That is the language of condescension and a \u201cknow-it-all\u201d mentality. You are an exception, apparently, but exceptions don\u2019t disprove the rule, as they say.<\/p>\n
Instead, I encourage you to address their arguments with the same dedication that they put into forming them.<\/span><\/p>\nI did my best with Dave\u2019s anti-testimony, and am doing so presently. Thanks again for your thoughts. I enjoyed the discussion.<\/p>\n
***<\/p>\n
(originally 9-28-07)<\/p>\n
Photo credit:<\/strong> WenPhotos<\/a>\u00a0(1-24-15)\u00a0[Pixabay<\/a>\u00a0\/\u00a0CC0 public domain<\/a>]<\/p>\n***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
This exchange took place on the\u00a0ExChristian.Net\u00a0site, in response to my critique of the webmaster\u00a0Dave Van Allen\u2019s \u201canti-testimony.\u201d\u00a0Dr. Arvo\u2019s words will be in\u00a0blue. My older cited words will be in\u00a0green. Dave Van Allen\u2019s words will be in\u00a0brown. * * * * * Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You start by responding to Dave\u2019s comment\u00a0\u201cNone of this […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":23106,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[745,151,258,645,335,1959,648,744,254,742,743,6135,5926,647,1456],"class_list":["post-23103","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-anti-theists","tag-apostasy","tag-atheism","tag-atheist-deconversion-stories","tag-atheists","tag-dave-van-allen","tag-debunking-christianity","tag-ex-christians","tag-faith-and-reason","tag-falling-away-from-faith","tag-former-christians","tag-freethinker","tag-jim-arvo","tag-john-loftus","tag-science-christianity"],"yoast_head":"\n
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Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. 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Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/23103","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=23103"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/23103\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/23106"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=23103"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=23103"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=23103"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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