![\"Jenner\"](\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2015\/08\/Jenner.jpg\")
<\/a><\/p>\nBruce \/ Caitlyn Jenner \u00a0at the 2012 London Olympics (July 2012)<\/span> [Wikimedia Commons <\/a>\/\u00a0Creative Commons<\/a>\u00a0<\/span>Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic<\/a>\u00a0license]<\/span><\/p>\n * * * * *<\/p>\n This occurred on my public Facebook page (24-26 July 2015). I informed my dialogue partner that it was public and that I might later put up a dialogue on my blog. But I won\u2019t use her name. Her words will be in <\/span><\/span>blue<\/span><\/span><\/span>. I have edited somewhat for brevity and easier presentation, and changed a few words of mine, but have not <\/span><\/span>changed<\/i><\/span><\/span> any of my opponent\u2019s words.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n We disagreed about everything, but it\u2019s supremely important to keep the lines of communication open and to be loving towards all human beings; always exercising charity. I tried my best to do that, and the entire discussion remained civil and congenial.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n * * * * *<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n There is so much bravery in being female bodied, but it takes just as much to be who you are despite the critics. I am so tired of seeing hateful anti Trans messages in my feed. It makes it very hard to love myself as I have come to know myself, which is female-bodied, but not a woman at all.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n Not all women or female bodied people can carry babies. Not all victims of DV are female bodied. Caitylin Jenner is a woman. I am not. I can biologically carry children, and plan to one day. She cannot. Neither of those facts defines who we are.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n Bruce Jenner is a man, genetically, and as the way that God in His providence decided to create him (through the procreation of his parents). I don\u2019t have any hate whatever for the man. I\u2019m simply giving my opinion.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n No, she is male-bodied, genetically, as I am female-bodied. Your anachronistic ideas of gender based in an Abrahamic faith do not change the fact that gender has nothing to do with sex. We are born with a sex that may or may not match our gender for many reasons. I am glad you don\u2019t experience such a dissonance, but it is time to stop persecuting those who do. As a person of faith, you must believe that God made us this way for a reason.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n That premise is disputable, and usually presupposes 100% genetic causation (by extension God \u201ccausing\u201d it). I disagree and believe that there are profound effects from environment that help bring about such things.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n I do not have that faith, but I hope it will help you find a place of understanding for people like us.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n I need not appeal to \u201can Abrahamic faith\u201d to know the difference between male and female. I know enough not to go into the \u201cwomen\u2019s\u201d rest room or locker room. Catholics acknowledge the presence of same-sex attraction, which is not inherently sinful, as long as not acted upon. But we will not call a man a woman or vice versa; anymore than we would call a cabbage a water buffalo or an ear of corn a washing machine.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n The most difficulty I experience as a Transgender person is people refusing to use the pronouns I prefer. This is not the experience that many Transexual people face. Most of them experience active hatred and disgust from their families and communities. I am very lucky.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n 1. I don\u2019t hate anyone, and love all persons. Christians are called to love everyone as Christ loved us. If I met you, you would be as welcome in my home as anyone else, and treated no differently.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n 2. I profoundly disagree with the trans-gender \/ trans-sexual concepts.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n 3. #1 and #2 are not mutually exclusive.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n 4. Some Christians and moral traditionalists, unfortunately, <\/span><\/span><\/span>do<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span> harbor hatred or prejudice towards various groups of people. I heartily condemn that.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n 5. I also condemn bigotry and prejudice coming our way from various groups of people. No one has a lock on hostility and bigotry.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n I come from a very conservative Christian family. My struggle has been long, and filed with my own misconceptions. I knew I didn\u2019t fit with the stereotypes of either gender when I was a child, but the environment I was raised in promoted traditional gender roles, and did not accept that a person may be of a different gender than they are sex. This point of view continues unabated, despite scientific evidence to the contrary. Your view is anachronistic and wrong. That is not an opinion, it is a scientific fact that many people who are a part of traditional conservative religious communities cannot accept. I am glad the world is changing and now recognizes the stigmatising and inaccurate place those views come from. You can disagree all you want. It doesn\u2019t make you right, even if the majority continued to agree.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n Of course<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span> mere disagreement doesn\u2019t make me rig<\/span><\/span><\/span>ht. <\/span><\/span><\/span>Nor is \u201cgay marriage\u201d right or \u201cnormal\u201d according to natural and revealed law, just because five Supreme Court Justices say so.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n Sole genetic causation is not an <\/span><\/span><\/span>established <\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>scientific \u201cfact\u201d at al<\/span><\/span><\/span>l. Scientists differ on it, just like they do on many other issues. It doesn\u2019t help you to deny that you are a woman, which is genetically determined, with female characteristics as God ordained them (complementarity of the genders).<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n You say (or might say, based on the above comment) that it is \u201chatred\u201d if I disagree with you. I say it is a loving thing to do, flowing from a desire for what is best for you (according to natural law and God\u2019s law), and for what will make you truly fulfilled and joyful. I don\u2019t want to see you or anyone else suffer, and suffering derives in part from false ideas that are injurious to people.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n Have you rejected the Christian faith because of this issue? I see from your page that you are an atheist. I\u2019m sorry to hear that.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n As for my religion, or lack thereof, the faith I was raised in has little or nothing to do with objective reality. I\u2019m also a Chaos Mage, and Satanist. Have a good day. I hope you learned something.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n I did learn quite a bit. I hope you did, too.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n My mother is a Christian. I have learned a lot from her. A person\u2019s faith doesn\u2019t always reflect their capacity or desire to learn.<\/span><\/p>\n Your point of view completely ignores people like me. I am capable of raising a healthy child regardless of the fact that there is no place for me in Judeo-western binary concepts of gender. Our gender roles as a larger society are clearly evolving and our views about gender identity itself will clearly have to do so as well.<\/span><\/p>\n [responding to my reply to her friend, which I\u2019ll be posting separately]<\/span>\u00a0Not even two paragraphs in and already full of inaccuracies. For you to even suggest we are atheist because of our upbringing is ridiculous.<\/span><\/p>\n As for the rest, the rate of homosexuality for children raised in homosexual households is actually slightly lower than the rate in hetero-normative homes. This means we have a lower chance of raising deviants by your societal standards. As for atheism, I really hope our children don\u2019t choose to relate to superstitious nonsense, but I will leave it to their free will. Our society did not choose to accept gay marriage because of the Supreme Court. We choose it because it is wrong to deny rights to a loving couple based on anyone else\u2019s religion.<\/span><\/p>\n You yourself back up my general point about lousy upbringing affecting later life and behavior, in your post of June 28th, discussing your various \u201ctraumas\u201d in childhood.<\/span><\/p>\n I disagree that\u00a0<\/span>true<\/i><\/span>\u00a0Christianity was the cause of that. I could see, however, how a warped, unloving so-called \u201cChristianity\u201d could cause one to reject Christianity (as a straw man).<\/span><\/p>\n While I would disagree with that analysis in particulars, it is quite clear that (as a generality) background tends to lead one to certain views. If good Christian models weren\u2019t present, there is a good chance of rejection of Christianity and espousal of atheism.<\/span><\/p>\n In my case, I grew up very nominally religious (if at all), but came to a deeper faith in my own studies: first as an evangelical Protestant, then as a Catholic. So my background affected me, too, but in the opposite direction. I rejected nominal religion and became\u00a0more<\/i><\/span>\u00a0religious and spiritual, not anti-religious.<\/span><\/p>\n Backgrounds have their effect; this is my point. You help prove that in your own report of a terrible childhood.<\/p>\n My mother is on your friend\u2019s list. Please refrain from saying she isn\u2019t a \u201ctrue\u201d Christian. She is. She also believes that homosexuality is a sin, but recognizes that it is not her place as a Christian to legislate according to belief.<\/span><\/p>\n I\u2019ve said nothing about your mother. She may have been a perfectly fine mother, for all I know. I was merely going by\u00a0<\/span>your<\/i><\/span>\u00a0report of your childhood. You claim that Christianity was some horrible, terrible thing that traumatized you. I said I disagree with that, but that if there was trauma, it did not come from true Christian teaching or behavior. Your report backs up my\u00a0<\/span>general<\/i><\/span>\u00a0point: backgrounds profoundly affect later life.<\/span><\/p>\n As I previously stated (Part I), Catholics don\u2019t believe that homosexuality is a sin, but that homosexual sexual\u00a0<\/span>acts\u00a0<\/i><\/span>are sinful. The orientation itself is not.<\/span><\/p>\n As for the literal torture (on more than one occasion due to my sexuality) I endured at the hands of a fundamentalist Christian child care facility, not even that stopped me from espousing Christian beliefs as recently as a few years ago, although I went between attempts at belief in Christianity and my calling as a Satanic Magician since I was 13. I tried really hard to accept the Christian paradigm with the help of many good, healthy people. It simply doesn\u2019t make sense to me.<\/span><\/p>\n Obviously, \u201ctorture\u201d (whatever in the world they\u00a0<\/span>did<\/i><\/span>\u00a0to you) is not a Christian, loving behavior, so this again affirms my point. That was not without effect. You have an article linked on your page about how religion traumatizes children. I reply, \u201csure, corrupt, perverted, hypocritical religion does that. But a religion that models Jesus Christ in His behavior does\u00a0<\/span>not<\/b><\/i><\/span>.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n Nor am I saying that there are no other factors in your atheism, or that you never thought it through: only that family background has an effect (environmental cause).<\/span><\/p>\n I don\u2019t believe in sin, only harmful actions, of which neither orientation nor act of homosexuality count. Again, a difference in perceived morality. I don\u2019t deny that you have right to feel however you want about anybody, for any reason. I deny your right to legislate my behavior and rights because of it.<\/span><\/p>\n We make such legislation all the time: that some people disagree with. Serial rapists don\u2019t like anti-rape laws. Pedophiles don\u2019t like laws against that. Heroin addicts are not enamored by laws against heroin; nor alcoholics by tough drunk driving standards. Burglars don\u2019t like laws against their favored behavior.<\/span><\/p>\n It\u2019s illegal to kill yourself or to destroy property. All these laws step on someone\u2019s toes. Until recently, homosexual acts were actually illegal, and same-sex \u201cmarriage\u201d was unthinkable.<\/p>\n Every law whatsoever<\/i><\/span>\u00a0is based on some moral assumption as to rightness and wrongness of this or that behavior. The proper observation is \u201c<\/span>whose<\/b><\/i><\/span>\u00a0morality is legislated?\u201d Currently, radical secularism and sexual radicalism are ascendant in US jurisprudence (and have been for 50 years, since the Griswold case).\u00a0<\/span>This party has no problem imposing\u00a0<\/span>its<\/i><\/span>\u00a0morality on those of us who disagree with it. Now we have nuns forced to provide contraceptives or bakers forced to bake a cake for a \u201cgay wedding,\u201d etc.<\/span><\/p>\n Also, I was tortured for less than a year. It was not the first, not the last experience I had with Christians, and not typical of the Christians I have met.<\/span><\/p>\n I disagree with Christianity because the basic tenets of the religion are incorrect. That is a matter of science, and has nothing to do with my upbringing.<\/span><\/p>\n Then why did you write on your page on June 28th?:<\/span><\/p>\n I have endured many traumas, but it is so wonderful to see that there are others who understand that the way religion, particularly Christianity, affected me is not the least of why I am who I am -frightened, scared of and scared by life, . . . When you traumatize a child, the worst part for them is realizing, as an adult, that they will never know who they could have been without your interference . . .<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n This seems to contradict what you are saying now, because here you are saying that Christianity traumatized you and caused you serious misery. Yet now you are saying that all that has\u00a0<\/span>nothing<\/i><\/span>\u00a0to do with your rejection of Christianity and espousal of atheism?\u00a0It seems to me that it clearly\u00a0<\/span>does<\/i><\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n It also doesn\u2019t have anything to do with my stance on gay marriage, which is based on the equal treatment of all citizens under the law.<\/span><\/p>\n I hold by both positions. I was traumatized by Christians in the name of Christ, and in part because of my sexuality. That\u2019s why I took as long as I did to reject it. I wanted to make extra sure I was rejecting the tenants of your faith, and not simply reacting to the way I was treated. I also tried the Catholic church as an adult, and got as far as the second rite of initiation. In the end I could not accept the idea of the divine nature of Jesus. It simply doesn\u2019t make sense.<\/span><\/p>\n Fair enough. All I have argued was that upbringing is\u00a0<\/span>a<\/b><\/i><\/span>\u00a0major factor in one\u2019s subsequent beliefs, not the<\/span>\u00a0only<\/i><\/span>\u00a0one. Nothing you have said about your beliefs or past contradicts that claim of mine in the least. And I say that you have said much to confirm it. We\u2019re all affected by our upbringing. Mine certainly affected me, but I was much\u00a0<\/span>more\u00a0<\/i><\/span>religious than my parents, not much less, as in your case.<\/span><\/p>\n Equating homosexuality with pedophilia and rape is an old tactic. However, it has nothing to do with a consenting relationship between adults. I know that Christian morals were the basis of our laws for a long time. As the influence of Christianity and religion in general has dropped, our basis for legislation has also changed. What has not changed is the constant progress we have made on recognizing the rights of minority groups. It was also once illegal to marry outside of your race, with plenty of biblical precedent to back it up. That changed too, and is a much closer analogy to the prejudice experienced by homosexuals under the law until recently. I am so grateful that has changed.<\/span><\/p>\n I did no such thing. You are more or less continually not understanding the nature of my argument. I was giving many examples of laws that offend those who want to break them. I used pedophilia specifically because it\u2019s one of the few sexual things upon which society still overwhelmingly\u00a0<\/span>agrees<\/i><\/span>. It\u2019s just about the last remaining \u201csexual sin\u201d in this Utopia we now live in. When I said \u201cserial rapist\u201d I had in mind heterosexuals (the way that \u201crape\u201d is usually envisioned: men raping women).<\/span><\/p>\n That has nothing whatsoever to do with saying all homosexuals are pedophiles. Please don\u2019t project what others have said onto me. You also expected to be hated when you came onto this page, and that has not happened, either. We\u2019re actually having a decent discussion.<\/span><\/p>\n The idea that homosexuality is a deviation from healthy human behavior in the same light as pedophilia (also a normal sexuality, but one without any evolutionary benefit, and therefore properly maintained as taboo) or rape is false. Homosexuality evolved as a way to up the number of healthy hunters vs. children in a primitive group. It increased the survivability of the group as a whole, and has many evolutionary benefits as a result. Rape is at best a primitive impulse to control and disseminate genes. These are not the same.<\/span><\/p>\n I\u00a0<\/span>agree<\/i><\/span>. I\u2019m just making it very clear that it is\u00a0<\/span>not<\/i><\/span>\u00a0a point that\u00a0<\/span>I<\/i><\/span>\n