{"id":23624,"date":"2018-09-06T19:07:28","date_gmt":"2018-09-06T23:07:28","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=23624"},"modified":"2018-09-06T19:07:28","modified_gmt":"2018-09-06T23:07:28","slug":"gods-judgment-analogies-for-an-atheist-inquirer","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2018\/09\/gods-judgment-analogies-for-an-atheist-inquirer.html","title":{"rendered":"God’s Judgment of Sin: Analogies for an Atheist Inquirer"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\n<\/p>

\"\"<\/p>\n

[Words of atheist or agnostic (?) heleninedinburgh<\/a>\u00a0will be in blue<\/span>]<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

I\u2019ve been dealing with several of the objections to God\u2019s alleged character flaws in my\u00a0series vs. Seidensticker<\/a> (so far with zero response from him, after 14 critiques).<\/p>\n

\u2018Character flaws\u2019 is a pretty tactful way to put it. The flood in Genesis, perhaps? Sodom and Gomorrah?<\/span><\/p>\n

God as the Creator has the \u201cprerogative\u201d to judge His creation when they have gone astray.<\/p>\n

We have earthly judges (by analogy) who do the same thing. A criminal commits a crime. He is given a fair trial, found guilty, and is then judged, if deemed guilty. We\u2019ve even had the death penalty.<\/p>\n

But it\u2019s inconceivable that God is the Cosmic Judge?<\/p>\n

Well, your god is yours; \u2018you do you,\u2019 as they say. But I still think killing everyone on earth except eight people is not a moral thing to do. Would your god like it if one of us humans decided to kill everybody on earth?<\/span><\/p>\n

We\u2019re not God. That\u2019s the whole point. But people who favor legal abortion love to play<\/em> God, don\u2019t they? They believe that a mother owns another human being (her own child) \u2014 just like chattel slavery \u2014 and can kill him or her at will. Of course I don\u2019t accept that. I think it\u2019s immoral and murder (by the abortionist). But the internal logic there is the same thing that is objected to when it comes to God, and it\u2019s said that He can\u2019t judge someone and kill them.<\/p>\n

Imagine if everyone on earth<\/em> were like an SS agent (think, Heinrich Himmler). We took out people like that in World War II and everyone thought it was quite moral. But if God<\/em> does it, suddenly it\u2019s immoral.<\/p>\n

Well, with the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, that\u2019s what the Bible says took place: the level of immorality was virtually universal and beyond repair. So God judged. I don\u2019t have the slightest problem with it. I think it\u2019s exactly what we would expect in a God Who is both perfectly loving and a just judge.<\/p>\n

You mentioned Himmler. Just thinking about Goebbels. If he hadn\u2019t killed himself he\u2019d have been tried at Nuremberg and presumably executed, yes? Would it have been moral to execute his children too?<\/span><\/p>\n

Not according to our legal systems, no.<\/p>\n

And of course I know what you are driving at. In a blanket judgment by God there will be children who are killed as well. But they are not necessarily condemned to hell. God judges each soul individually. So yes, they may have to die young as a result of being in a hyper-corrupt culture (below the age of reason and guilt, as we Catholic say), but they have an eternal life in front of them and God will judge them justly in that respect.<\/p>\n

In the atheist view, on the other hand, there is no ultimate justice at all. Since we are doing Nazi analogies, it would be as if the Nazis had won World War II and were ruling the world right now, doing all the evil they did while they were in power. In a world without God, there would be no ultimate justice. These Nazis would die and cease to exist. They would pay no penalty for their great evils (not even in this life if they aren\u2019t defeated). Their victims would die and cease to exist as well, and never receive any good things. All they had was an earthy life which was a living hell under Nazi rule.<\/p>\n

There is no justice or meaning or \u201chappy ending\u201d in that scenario. Many people in the world have a terrible life: and very often because of despotic rulers or bad social or religious systems. In the Christian worldview the unrepentant bad guys are judged for their evil (and will end up in hell). People who accept God\u2019s grace spend eternity with God in heaven, in great bliss and joy, with no more suffering.<\/p>\n

That<\/em> is meaningful and just.<\/p>\n

Oh,\u00a0of course<\/i>\u00a0you know what I\u2019m driving at.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you were driving at something else, by all means inform me of it. It looks like you did have in mind what I figured that you did, based on your next answer [below]<\/p>\n

In a blanket judgment by God there will be children who are killed as well.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Then why does your god make these blanket judgements? Surely it could do something more targeted?<\/span><\/p>\n

The idea of innocent people who\u2019ve had a bad life and wicked people who prosper all getting what\u2019s coming to them is a lovely one. I\u2019m going to have to be a spoilsport and ask for proof that that\u2019s actually what happens, though.<\/span><\/p>\n

According to biblical<\/a> teaching, it is<\/a>.<\/p>\n

And how do you know the Bible\u2019s accurate?<\/span><\/p>\n

See many related papers<\/a> on that topic, that I have collected.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Related reading:<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

\n

Judgment of Nations: A Collection of Biblical Passages<\/a>\u00a0[9-21-01]<\/p>\n

*
\nJudgment of Nations: Biblical Commentary\u00a0and Reflections<\/a>\u00a0[9-21-01]
\n*<\/p>\n

Reflections on Judgment and Sufficient Knowledge for Salvation<\/a>\u00a0[6-7-02]
\n*<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

Reply to a Calvinist: Hardening of Pharaoh\u2019s Heart<\/a>\u00a0(vs. Colin Smith) [10-14-06]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\n
<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
God\u2019s Judgment of Humans (Sometimes, Entire Nations)<\/a>\u00a0[2-16-07]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\n
\u201cHow Can God Order the Massacre of Innocents?\u201d (Amalekites, etc.)<\/a>\u00a0[11-10-07]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Final Judgment &\u00a0Works<\/em>\u00a0(Not Faith): 50 Passages<\/a>\u00a0[2-10-08]
\n*<\/div>\n
Did Moses (and God) Sin In Judging the Midianites (Numbers 31)?<\/a>\u00a0[5-21-08]<\/div>\n
\n
*<\/div>\n
\n
God \u201cHardening Hearts\u201d: How Do We Interpret That?<\/a>\u00a0[12-18-08]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\n
<\/div>\n
\n
God\u2019s \u201cPunishing\u201d of Descendants: Unjust?<\/a>\u00a0[7-8-10]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Dialogue on Faith and Works and the Relation of Each to the Final Judgment<\/a>\u00a0(vs. Bethany Kerr) [10-10-13]
\n*<\/div>\n
Final Judgment Always Has to Do with Works and Never with \u201cFaith Alone\u201d<\/a>\u00a0[9-5-14]
\n*<\/div>\n
\n
Israel as God\u2019s Agent of Judgment<\/a>\u00a0[9-28-14]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\n
Is God an Unjust Judge? Dialogue with an Atheist<\/a>\u00a0[10-30-17]<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
***\n

Photo credit:<\/strong>\u00a0God the Father<\/em>: woodcut by Julius Schnorr von Carolsfeld (1794-1872)<\/span>\u00a0[public domain \/\u00a0Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

<\/div>\n
***<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

[Words of atheist or agnostic (?) heleninedinburgh\u00a0will be in blue] ***** I\u2019ve been dealing with several of the objections to God\u2019s alleged character flaws in my\u00a0series vs. Seidensticker (so far with zero response from him, after 14 critiques). \u2018Character flaws\u2019 is a pretty tactful way to put it. The flood in Genesis, perhaps? Sodom and […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":23630,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124,31,172],"tags":[4308,4305,4306,4304,4307,4297,224,795,4299,176,4298],"class_list":["post-23624","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","category-bible-and-tradition","category-trinitarianism-christology","tag-divine-chastisement","tag-divine-judgment","tag-divine-punishment","tag-divine-wrath","tag-god-the-judge","tag-institutional-sin","tag-judgment","tag-judgment-of-nations","tag-rebellious-nations","tag-sin","tag-wicked-nations"],"yoast_head":"\nGod's Judgment of Sin: Analogies for an Atheist Inquirer<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"A criminal commits a crime, is tried, and is then judged, if deemed guilty. We've even had the death penalty. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/23624","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=23624"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/23624\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/23630"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=23624"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=23624"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=23624"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}