Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n***<\/p>\n
This occurred on my Facebook page (24-26 July 2015), in a public post. My opponent (a \u201cstraight male\u201d) was informed that I might use this in a later dialogue on my blog; but I won\u2019t reveal his name. His words will be in <\/span><\/span>blue<\/span><\/span><\/span>. It also turns out that he was an atheist, so we briefly discussed that, and how his background was (in my opinion) an indicator or predictor of his loss of faith.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\u00a0<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/p>\n
* * * * *<\/p>\n
Woman and man are not objective scientific facts.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nI\u2019ll appeal to this \u201cfact\u201d the next time I inadvertently stumble into the ladies\u2019 room or the women\u2019s locker room. We\u2019ll see how far I get with that.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nDo so. If you can prove a pattern of living as a woman, you can use the woman\u2019s bathroom. That\u2019s legit.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nFrom your perspective, that makes perfect sense. From common sense, it does not, and won\u2019t work.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nFrom common sense, you must understand that your religion saying something does not make it objective fact. Gay marriage is normal and right, just not in your faith. For people who do not follow your faith, that isn\u2019t a barrier.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nLikewise, you as an atheist [as I learned: see below] dogmatically and arbitrarily proclaiming that something is \u201cright\u201d or \u201cnatural\u201d does not make it so. Just as you can express your opinion, I can express mine and say that \u201cgay marriage\u201d is abnormal and not natural; except in your faith-system, where you are taught to believe that it is, just because people arbitrarily say it is or \u201cfeel\u201d it is right.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n* * *<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nFemale and male are, but woman and man is not the same as male and female. Biological sex is a genetic fact; gender is a social construct. We can see this by looking at non-Abrahamic societies where the genders are very different even though they have the same biological sexes. The hijas of India, the fa\u2019afafine of Polynesia, the two-spirit people of many Native American tribes, these are all <\/span><\/span><\/span>genders<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span> that exist in other societies. That\u2019s without going into the complicated issues of alternative genetic sexes\u2013xxy, xyy, xxyyy, etc. It\u2019s all much, much more complex than the binary dichotomy encouraged by your religion, which is immaterial anyways as we don\u2019t live on a society where your religion dictates facts or opinions for anybody except those who choose to follow it.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nThis is as convoluted reasoning as we have heard from the pro-aborts, who separate personhood from humanity in a preborn child.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nNo, these are facts. Gay marriage is a thing, to\u2013lots of homosexuals have been married in other non-Abrahamic societies.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nSo what? Lots of societies now sanction the slaughter and genocide of the preborn and judges with impressive robes sanction it and say it is a-ok. Doesn\u2019t make murder \u201cright.\u201d\u00a0Likewise, \u201cGay marriage\u201d doesn\u2019t become fact or \u201cright\u201d because five judges say so.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n* * *<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nAre you an atheist?<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nDoes that matter?<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nTechnically, no. I was just curious, given your remark: \u201ca society where your religion dictates facts or opinions\u201d. That sounds atheistic or agnostic to me. And if you are, be <\/span><\/span><\/span>proud<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span> of it; don\u2019t be ashamed of full disclosure. You\u2019ll be treated charitably and with respect here.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nI\u2019m not ashamed of anything. My faith or lack there of is truly immaterial to this discussion.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nA person\u2019s belief-system is <\/span><\/span><\/span>always <\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201cmaterial\u201d to discussion, because it tells us lots about their probable presuppositions.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nIn order to engage in constructive dialogue, it is important to know both 1) what is agreed upon: especially at the axiomatic (or, premise) level, and 2) what is disagreed upon from the outset.<\/p>\n
Thus, knowing someone is an atheist changes a conversation. I would not (knowing that), for example, make arguments from the Bible (from the premise that it is inspired revelation), because that is no longer a shared premise.<\/p>\n
Since [Name] won\u2019t share with us his belief-system, I went over to his page to see (my guess was correct):<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nReligious Views: Atheist<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nPolitical Views: Libertarian Socialist. That\u2019s right, there is no place for me in the American political system.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nSure there is: Bernie Sanders.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\u201cAnd by their works you shall know them.\u201d I am done here. Thanks for the discussion.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nThank you. Very illuminating. May God bless you.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n[21 minutes later] <\/span><\/span><\/span>I would actually like to engage more in this discussion, especially since your concept of what\u2019s important in a debate is so messed up.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nMy atheism and politics don\u2019t change the facts that I stated.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nI never said that they did. You\u2019re not comprehending what I am saying (I explained exactly why I asked if you were an atheist). I just ran across an old dialogue from ten years ago that I had with an agnostic friend. He wrote:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nI think that if you dialogued with Dave and his blog friends you might recognize and even come to respect the sincerity [and] depth of Dave\u2019s faith, and the thoroughness of his arguments on every topic, without necessarily agreeing with his theological, doctrinal and creedal premises concerning everything he currently believes.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nI have learned a lot from Christians, by the way. Have you learned from an atheist?<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nAbsolutely.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nIt has been my experience in the past that, often, when my being an atheist becomes known the conversation shuts down \u2013 in extreme cases I\u2019ve been told that talking to me is like talking to an evil spirit.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nYeah, I know. And I\u2019ve been treated the same way many times by people who disagree with me: the worst of all from fellow Christians (of the anti-Catholic variety). I\u2019ve been called every name under the sun. Everyone\u2019s task is to rise above that nonsense and <\/span><\/span><\/span>talk<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span> to each other with love and respect.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nI have dialogued constructively with many atheists (got together with a group of them a few weeks ago for a fun evening of discussion). <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nOn one occasion, I was invited to do a Q & A at an atheist group, with eleven atheists and myself. That was the most enjoyable evening I ever had, in 34 long years of doing Christian \/ Catholic apologetics. I consider several of them friends.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nThe topic of this thread is trans-genderism and \u201cgay marriage.\u201d I like to concentrate on one topic at a time. If you two [his female friend] will actually hang around long enough to become acquaintances and possibly friends, we could talk about any number of things, I\u2019m sure (in other threads). I have about 500 posted dialogues with all kinds of belief-systems.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nSo here is the basic premise: man and woman are different and distinct concepts from male and female, and while related to each other they are not the same. While male and female relate to biological sex and are more or less fixed at birth, the terms are not all inclusive and the relatively fixed nature of these terms does not imply a similar fixed nature to the terms man and woman, which relate to cultural and societal roles and the perceived nature of a person rather than to biological sex.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nThere are many different human societies that have existed independently of each other for quite some time. All of these societies have some sort of division between people of different sexes\u2014usually divided along genital lines. This shows in the languages\u2014there is a reason that there is only ever one term for humans in every language, but there are specific terms for both primary biological sexes.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nThe specifics of which sex fulfills which roles in each society is often very different\u2014with the obvious biological distinction that females always give birth. In some societies females raise the children; in others men do. In some societies women do the physical labor while men obtain food; in others it is the other way around. This shows that the roles assigned to the sexes are arbitrary and culturally dependent; that is, a great deal rests on which society you live in.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nThis, of course, extends to religion. Different religions in different societies have deemed different roles appropriate for males and females. In some religions females are the primary spiritual leaders and practioners\u2014indeed, the oldest known example of a religious leader in the world is the 12,000 year old corpse of a female shaman. In others, females even seeing the religious rites occur is incredibly taboo. Religious institutions that evolved naturally in different places have all ended up with very different concepts of the appropriate rules for each primary sex, irrespective of any claims of universal truth made by these religions.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nMan and Woman, on the other hand, are labels applied by societies to male-bodied and female-bodied human beings, very separate from the male or female label. This distinction is also built into the languages; masculino is not the same as hombre, m\u00e2le is not the same as homme. There is almost always a term for your biological sex, and then a term for your gender. And while every single society on the face of Earth always has exactly two terms for sex (and then specific terms for people born intersex), this is not true of gender. In some languages there are three different gender terms. In others there is only one gender term applied equally to males and females (despite that even in these languages there are still different terms for each biological sex).<\/span><\/p>\nThere are many different concepts of gender in many different societies. I\u2019ve already pointed out the hijiras and the fa\u2019afafine. There\u2019s the Two-Spirit People of various Native American cultures, the Waria of Indonesia, the Sekhet of ancient Egypt, and many many others. With the exception of the Egyptian example, these aren\u2019t ancient terms no longer in use; the hijiras are alive and well in India today. The modern Western concept of a dichotomy of genders with no movement between them is just that; it\u2019s a Western sociological concept. It\u2019s not an objective fact. The mere existence of societies where the concept of gender is radically different\u2014such as the Bugis people who have a concept of three sexes and five distinct genders with different societal roles\u2014should in and of itself be more than enough evidence that gender is an entirely social construct with no objective reality.<\/span><\/p>\nThat\u2019s all fine and good but it doesn\u2019t overthrow the Christian argument. Men and women have many different roles in various societies. When America was 90% rural, the women worked in the fields just as hard as the men did. It changed with the industrial revolution, when (typically) the men went off and the women often stayed home. But then, e.g., in WWII, the women went to work outside the home. Stuff like that can vary.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nWhat <\/span><\/span><\/span>doesn\u2019t<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span> change, however, are the different, complementary roles of men and women with regard to childbearing and raising children. A man can\u2019t breastfeed a child. The nurture and depth of love that a mother gives to a child cannot be matched by a father. Yet the father can be just as loving in his own way.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nA man cannot bear children. There is an ontological difference that transcends culture, and is built-in by God. God has qualities of both male and female. In one passage, Jesus said He wanted to embrace Jerusalem like a mother hen and her chicks (but Jerusalem would not). But that is God. Human beings are split into two genders, and they\u2019re different from each other. Equal, but different.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\nTry as they might, two women or two men can never raise a child like a man and a woman can. You can do the anthropological talk all you like. It doesn\u2019t touch the facts of nature and humanity that I just outlined, because it is apples vs. oranges.<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/p>\n
Proceed to Part II\u00a0<\/a><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\u00a0<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
Sappho and Erinna in a Garden at Mytilene (by Simeon Solomon, 1864) [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons] *** This occurred on my Facebook page (24-26 July 2015), in a public post. My opponent (a \u201cstraight male\u201d) was informed that I might use this in a later dialogue on my blog; but I won\u2019t reveal his […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":2469,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124,123],"tags":[144,143,142,127,251,128,126,125],"class_list":["post-2468","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","category-sexuality-and-gender-issues","tag-bruce-jenner","tag-caitlyn-jenner","tag-gay-lesbian","tag-homosexuality","tag-lgbt","tag-same-sex-marriage","tag-sex-change","tag-transgender"],"yoast_head":"\n
Dialogue: \u201cAnthropological Advocacy\u201d of Same-Sex Marriage, Part I<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"I can find every behavior under the sun (like same-sex marriage) that was considered "normative" and justified by some society or other.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/08\/dialogue-anthropological-advocacy-of-same-sex-marriage-part-i.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Dialogue: \u201cAnthropological Advocacy\u201d of Same-Sex Marriage, Part I\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"I can find every behavior under the sun (like same-sex marriage) that was considered "normative" and justified by some society or other.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" 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Armstrong\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Dave Armstrong\"},\"description\":\"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2468","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2468"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2468\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/2469"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2468"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2468"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2468"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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